Talk:Criticism of Wikipedia/Archive 3

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Contents

Wikipedia "editors" are clueless

I contributed all the valuable information in my head about Desert Combat Extended being I'm the guy who started the whole thing. But you know how stupid some Wikipedia editors can be; they kept answering "You need to specify your source!" Hello Dipshit! I AM THE SOURCE! What better way to get the correct information from the original source? Then there was the whole "neutrality" of the article. Once again: HELLO! I AM THE SOURCE! I even offered many forms of proof and they rejected them all. One of which was the second forum that was created after the original disappeared after Desert Combat Extended was discontinued. What else does Wikipedia Editors want? Indiviual testimonies from all the 100,000+ players that played DCX (Desert Combat Extended) over it's 3 year lifespan?

It's a good thing the Desert Combat Extended article is blocked. My strategy worked; keep posting until they block it off. I rather have that than Wikipedia's inaccurate and incomplete article about my creation.

I also must say that Wikipedia is incorrect about many articles as well. One of which is my employer. There are many errors on that page that I could correct if not for the fact that I believe Wikipedia will do some Ninja Edits and remove thruthful information.

No wonder professors ban all information coming from Wikipedia. It's useless! True encyclopedias are written by people in the know, not some bunch of clueless clowns with editor powers.

Wikipedia... you suck!

Zeuser (The founder of DCX) --Zeuser 19:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I keep finding that "factoids" I read on Wikipedia turn out to be utterly and completely fallacial. As a result, I no longer believe anything posted on this site. Way to go, Suckapedia! 71.205.216.122 19:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Is "fallacial" even a word? ·:·Will Beback ·:· 20:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Maybe he meant fallapalooza. Casey Abell 21:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Maybe he tried to say something that mattered to him, without being made fun of. Why don't you try to resolve this problem instead of poking "fun" at him? --Kaizer13 14:12, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Maybe the evidence-free, virtually meaning-free "suckapedia" comment did matter to him. But such comments serve no purpose in writing Criticism of Wikipedia. If the anon editor has verifiable, detailed and documented material to add to the article, it is welcome. "Suckapedia" doesn't qualify as verifiable, detailed and documented. Casey Abell 16:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
At the same time, facetious responses to such comments are equally pointless, so that's hardly a compelling argument. --ToobMug 10:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that a pointless and counterprodutive remark like the "suckapedia" comment deserves a facetious response. Casey Abell 22:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this website is just plain jacked-up and should be done away with. When it comes to people tampering with information, they practically get away with murder. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wikieuphoria (talk • contribs) 02:09, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

Jacked-up like a 70s muscle car or Jacked-up like drunk on Jack Daniels whiskey? I'm sorry, I think you should write so a fool like me knows what you mean? "Practically" getting away with murder is the same as getting caught, don't you think? Nanabozho 03:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I tried to create an article of my comic book character that's been on differnet fansites and usenet servers, Manator, but the stupid staff decided to delete it, plus tons of other entries I frequently visit. Saying sh*t like I needed to cite sources for my comic - the only source is me. I feel for you DCX man...totally do. --The Manator E 18:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I understand. I think my cat Casey should have their own page on Wikipedia, but I also know the deletionists wouldn't stand for it. Nanabozho 19:50, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, all of the Marvel, DC, Image, and Dark Horse comics should be deleted too, because they're fictional and have sources too. Yeah, just like a household pet. --The Manator E 21:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tme2nsb (talk • contribs)

Partial revert of Jimbo

It's not often that I revert an edit by Jimmy Wales. And it now seems to me that my edit summary was borderline incivil, for which I apologize. I also screwed up "screwed up" — which just shows that anybody can, well, screw up.

Truth to tell, I came this close (hold your thumb and forefinger a half-millimeter apart) to a complete revert of Jimbo's edit. In my opinion, "out of mediocrity, excellence" is a clever and completely unobjectionable summary of Wikipedia's fundamantal idea: average people, working together and often lacking conventional credentials, can produce superb encyclopedia articles.

Frankly, I'm not convinced by Jimmy's Google-based argument. Still, I can understand why some might be uncomfortable with the harshness of the term "mediocrity", which has acquired so many negative connotations. So I didn't revert entirely, though I was tempted. The first part of the edit, which (no doubt unintentionally) messed up most of the footnotes, had to be reverted, of course. I just wish I had been gentler, and a better typist, in my edit summary. Casey Abell 13:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Be careful when editing to not let impartiality be perceived as ambivalence or apathy to the topic, mediocrity has negative connotations in this day and age. Just use a more subtle synonym because you have poorly articulated what you have attempted to express, try to be a little more effusive too, I know it should be primarily a factual article but don't kill us all of ennui.

Please avoid editing this article if you are a wikipedian.

To aviod Conflict of interest, all wikipedian should avoid editing this article. Thank You. 220.255.58.47 04:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

That's an interesting paradox. I assume this would include anons. Perhaps you should take it to AfD as it would make an interesting argument. —Malber (talk • contribs) 15:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Do you really think that Wikipedians can't also be critical of Wikipedia?
Atlant 16:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
WP:COI does not forbid people editing about their organisation or interests (unless they are paid or involved in the running of it, etc). This is the same as the way I can edit about the University I go to, despite being a part of it. Even if that were not true, in this case WP:IAR would probably override any problems normal Wikipedians will have editing this article. However, WP:COI does require editors to be extra careful when editing the page. --h2g2bob 02:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
How is that possible? People who edit wikipedia technically are wikipedian. Also, If this article was only edited by those who oppose wikipedia, it will likely not get cleaned, updated, or rewritten for a while. AstroHurricane001(Talk+Contribs+Ubx) 22:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the one raising the issue that has a question that ought to be taken seriously, but all I can offer is that you should disclose that you are a Wikipedian, perhaps a userbox would do the trick? Something like: This Wikipedian is a Wikipedian. Nanabozho 03:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, are most of the above comments serious, retarded or sarcastic? It's an honest question. Many Wikipedians manage to be all at once, but mostly the middle one. --Fandyllic 6:23 PM PDT 21 Aug 2007

removed text

From "censorship", I removed "it took less time to delete this page than the time it takes to read it" as it's badly worded and not really in the right place. It has an interesting point at it's center, but I can't think how to rephrase it correctly. If anyone can think how to edit that in properly, feel free to do so. --h2g2bob 02:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

By what conceivable criteria...

...is this article encyclopedic? I'm not sure it belongs on Wikipedia at all -- after all, there's no "Criticism of Britannica" article in the Encyclopedia Britannica -- but it absolutely does not belong in mainspace. It is an essay and should be treated as such. --Tkynerd 02:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I just checked my 2005 print version of the Britannica, and the "Encyclopedia" article contains a long section titled "Problems of encyclopedias" (volume 18, pp. 264-5). This section reads remarkably like the Criticism of Wikipedia article, including a number of specific criticisms directed at past and present editions of Britannica. For instance, this passage discusses bias in the Britannica:
"Various editions of Encyclopedia Britannica, almost from the beginning, were accused of bias as well. The practice of relying on outside specialists for articles, a practice now followed by most serious encyclopedias, has increased the likelihood that bias will be worked into an article."
While Britannica doesn't split off a separate article for such criticism - the print encyclopedia only has so much space, after all - the encyclopedia certainly doesn't regard this criticism as unencyclopedic or unworthy of notice in their main article space. Similarly, we shouldn't regard criticism of Wikipedia as unworthy of an article in our main space. Casey Abell 15:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
None of that answers my question. What makes this article encyclopedic? I wouldn't object to Problems of encyclopedias on Wikipedia, but I do not find that Criticism of Wikipedia is encyclopedic. To begin with, as someone else pointed out during one of the AfDs on this article, it violates WP:SELF. --Tkynerd 16:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I didn't make myself clearer. I was only trying to answer your question by discussing how Britannica regards criticism of itself as an encyclopedic topic and worthy of discussion in its main article space. Of course, the judgment of what is "encyclopedic" will always be somewhat subjective, and I doubt that either of us will persuade the other on this issue. I'm afraid the issue may be undecidable in a rigorously objective way. But Britannica has made a judgment similar to Wikipedia's: criticism of the project is encyclopedic and can and should be treated at length in the main article space.
It seems that you would prefer a general "Problems of encyclopedias" article similar to Britannica's. If we followed Britannica's example, that article would include extensive discussion of criticism of Wikipedia, just as Britannica's article extensively discusses criticism of itself. So it appears that the material of this article would remain, but only as part of a larger article. That would be fine with me, but some editors think we have too many articles that are already too long. So a separate, shorter article may be the least controversial way to go. Casey Abell 19:10, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
To keep a Problems of encyclopedias article at a reasonable size, much of the detail in the current article would have to go, which is the right course of action. As it stands, the article is still navel-gazing, arguably POV, and unencyclopedic. Further, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the material in this article is duplicative of material that can be found elsewhere on Wikipedia, where it belongs. --Tkynerd 20:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, on second thought, I'm not at all sure that criticism of Wikipedia's specific model belongs in a Problems of encyclopedias article. Such an article should be an account of problems that are common to encyclopedias in general, as the name indicates. The Wikipedia-specific criticism does not, IMO, belong in mainspace. Still waiting for counterarguments that aren't just hand-waving. --Tkynerd 20:07, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

When opposing comments are dismissed as "hand-waving", it's clear that persuasion is not possible, and there's no need to continue the discussion. You could try another AfD, though the article has already survived five of them. Casey Abell 17:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I haven't really seen anything beyond "it's encyclopedic because it's encyclopedic," which of course is circular reasoning and qualifies as hand-waving if anything does. Not everything that gets written about in the media is therefore encyclopedic, and I've seen no other real arguments for this article being encyclopedic. I'll reiterate that Britannica does not have a Criticism of Britannica article. If there are other arguments, I'm ready to hear them -- and contrary to your unwarranted assumption and attack, I can be persuaded; I've just seen nothing persuasive yet. --Tkynerd 17:36, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Britannica doesn't have an article on Criticisms of Internet Explorer, although it might mention some of them in an article on Internet Explorer. That we have split what would be an enormous article (wikipedia + its criticism) into two so as to be more comprehensive is of no great consequence: Brittanica doesn't do it because they don't have the space (and maybe because they're there for the profit...). How can your entire argumentation be built on the fact that Britannica doesn't have a certain article? It doesn't have an article on Xenu either. Does that mean we should delete it too? yandman 08:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
My entire argumentation is not built on that fact. Reread the question that formed the initial portion of my first post on this topic. I'm still waiting for an answer. What are the criteria by which this article is encyclopedic? --Tkynerd 12:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a good question. User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles #6 seems to rule this article out:

The mailing list will remain open, well-advertised, and will be regarded as the place for meta-discussions about the nature of Wikipedia. Very limited meta-discussion of the nature of the Wikipedia should be placed on the site itself. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. The topic of Wikipedia articles should always look outward, not inward at the Wikipedia itself.

--Shtove 18:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I consider most of this discussion absurd, but in the spirit of understanding... How can Wikipedia exclude itself from the notable topics to include in itself? This reminds me of the argument in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy which describes how God was disproved. If Wikipedia criticism and other self-evaluative or self-descriptive topics are not allowed, shouldn't all of Wikipedia be considered non-notable and not worthy of having any content? --Fandyllic 6:29 PM PDT 21 Aug 2007

lack of grammar or logic

"Additionally, the issue of vandalism detection is an important one. Most vandalism is detected via "Recent changes", a listing of all recent edits. As such, even obvious vandalism that slips by those who watch for vandalism may remain undetected for several weeks, or even months"

This certainly is wrong or vandalized itself, it implies that recent changes feature makes obvious vandalism to remain undected for several weeks. "As such" is not the right wording. My last "vandalism"/"test", was to make that point. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.62.130.226 (talk) 16:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

I reworded it. Is it better now? – Qxz 02:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

So much for free speech

Should also add a section that details how this site deletes pages about sites critical of Wikipedia, what's the matter Jimbo, you don't like it when you don't get the fawning admiration you think you deserve?

Main page should read "Welcome to Wikipedia, the nasty new face of internet censorship"--80.43.33.207 15:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome to add a section stating that this is one criticism of the project, if you can back it up with reliable, independent sources. The second part of your comment, though, I think is best ignored – Qxz 15:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm welcome to add a section? Why thank-you your highness. I find it amusing that you mention "back up with reliable sources" when this site has a known history of deleting entries on websites that clearly criticise/parody Wikipedia, Encyclopediadramatica.com is one example. Rather than acknowledge such sites you force your own agenda by trying to deny their exsistance, but then of course the internet is serious business --80.43.40.131 20:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, arguably the Internet is serious business; it has — at least in developed nations — revolutionized the way business is done, changed the way we handle information, and impacted many aspects of society. Returning to your point, however, the article about the website you mention was deleted because no independent reliable sources could be found for its content (such sources as did exist came entirely from the website itself); the nature of the website is unrelated. This article, too, should contain only sourced material. In what way is my request "amusing"? This requirement is clearly outlined in Wikipedia's content policies, which also state that unsourced material may be removed – Qxz 22:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
^^On A lighter note, This is what we call a lulz-killer. The internet cannot simply be just serious business, but It should be a well-balanced diet between seriousness and play. Wikipedia is absorbing all the worst parts of the internet. Biggotry, over-professionalism, and most importantly, arrogance.--User:Gravy

Your request is amusing because you ask me to back up my claims that Wikipedia actively pursues a policy of censorship regarding websites that parody it. The evidence for this is on wikipedia, by the very fact that the entry for Encyclopediadramatica has been deleted and even the talk page deleted. And to say that it was deleted because no independent sources could be found for its content, well, clearly demonstrates that this sites admin do not understand satire. The day that the ED article is restored (and others like it) is when you can then say that wikipedia is not the nasty new face of internet censorship, but then that isn't going to happen, Uncle Jimbo isn't going to allow anything to ruin the lucarative gravy train he's on now. --80.47.152.170 23:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Being satirical does not exclude a website from the sourcing policies; they apply to all articles. Nor does removing material because it is unsourced constitute censorship — any more than removing nonsense and gibberish constitutes censorship. Again, the nature of that particular article was not the deciding factor in its deletion, it was the lack of sources. Thousands of other articles have been deleted for the same reason, on all kinds of subjects — people, bands, organizations, websites. Are you suggesting that Wikipedia actively pursues a policy of censorship regarding each of these subjects too? Clearly this is not the case – Qxz 23:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

"Being satirical does not exclude a website from the sourcing policies"....Great cop out,please keep this up, you're doing a fanatstic job of proving me right. Must drive you people mad that can control what people see but not what they think. Lack of sources may be your cited reason but everyone knows it was deleted because wikipedia do not want people to see this site beacause it parodies and satirises your great leader Jimbo. I'm not suggesting that wikipedia that Wikipedia actively pursues a policy of censorship....I'm saying it. This site is far too important to Jim Wales et al for anyone to threaten it or even dare criticise...such is the nature of the Jim Wales personality cult--80.43.37.90 18:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The way that ED fappers react over the TOW ED article deletion gives me much lulz in light of their view about teh internets being serious business. —Malber (talk • contribs) 02:05, 11 June 2008

Not an ED fapper (and can you provide a source to back that up?...you know, in the spirit of the great wikipedia policy that is always being touted) just using it as an example of Wikipedia's policy of deleting articles about sites that criticise it. Then to say it was deleted because it doesn't cite sources for satire........oh dear

He doesn't need a source; this is a talk page, not an article. It really helps if you READ and think critically about what other people say. Think about WHY it was deleted before you start crying. When you can answer that question (not from a biased viewpoint without any standing or basis, but on Wikipedia's own admission), you can cry about the unfairness.Robinson0120 02:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments regarding the deletion of the encyclopediadrmatica article. Unfortunately for you, your comments only serve to prove me right. Your doing a grand job of proving that editors on here show a fanatical devotion to Jimbo Wales and try to shout down all who criticise him. It really must drive you crazy knowing you can't silence us all. If you have a problem with people satirising Wikipedia or expressing criticism of your great leader, why don't you move to North Korea? It is really sad when a project like wikipedia that had so much potential is hijacked by people who will stop at nothing to enforce their point of view.

Anyone considering these arguments may wish to consider the existence of the article about Wikitruth, a site which is more consistently critical of Wikipedia than ED, and which has now survived a good while… funnily enough, thanks to its being extensively referenced in outside sources… \sim Lenoxus " * " 04:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


Well, the article about EncyclopediaDramatica was removed because trolls at ED don't take the Internet seriously and instead of collaborating in creating a nice article about them, they decide to troll it by adding stupid things like "I HERD U LIEK MUDKIPZ" and other senseless memes. ED has a huge Lulz ratio, but still ED is full of dumbasses. Oh and also, the address "encyclopediadramatica.com" is in the spamlist, because these Lulz-Maker like to link various unrelated subjects to their homepage.
[http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Some_shock_page Medical advice].
Now stop trolling. --Sébastien Leblanc (Talk|Mail) 17:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Truthiness as a commodity

How about this for a section? —Malber (talk • contribs) 15:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so. And given that everyone else who has used the words "commodity" and "truthiness" in the same sentence today has been reverted, neither does anyone else – Qxz 15:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I think you've taken my wikiality a bit too seriously. —Malber (talk • contribs) 17:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
It was either that or revert you – Qxz 19:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Grammar edits & queries

Just did some edits for grammar and readability.

The Suitability as an encyclopaedia section has this: "Critics such as Robert McHenry have said that Wikipedia errs in billing itself as an encyclopedia, because that word implies a level of authority and accountability that they believe cannot be possessed by an openly editable reference." This is the editor of Britannica, the online version of which defines Wikipedia as an encyclopaedia - contradiction there, so is this sentence an inaccurate paraphrase or a direct quote?

The Exposure to vandalism section has this: "Most undetected vandalizing edits are done by registered users, which are often reviewed less often than those by anonymous users." I don't know what this means.--Shtove 16:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

To answer your second question, "anonymous" users are those who do not log in under a user name, but simply edit without logging in; they show up as just IP addresses in the edit logs. But I have a feeling you already knew that. What the sentence is saying is that anonymous users' edits tend to be viewed with more suspicion than the edits of registered users, so vandalism committed by registered users is more likely to go undetected. --Tkynerd 16:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Your way of putting it is much better. The point about registered users' vandalism is plausible, but is it surmise or assertion - this is more likely to happen, or does actually happen? And I wonder what source will back it up?--Shtove 16:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Probably best to remove it, unless someone does find a source somewhere. I very much doubt there's a reliable, independent source saying vandalism from registered users is noticed less; I'm not sure there's even a Wikipedia project page that says it — in any case, it's really just speculation based on our intuition as contributors, which unfortunately is original research – Qxz 19:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

search engine

Is anyone else sick of seeing "There was a problem with your search. This is probably temporary; try again in a few moments, or you can search Wikipedia through an external search service:?" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 136.150.200.99 (talk) 15:25, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

Yes. Unfortunately it seems we can't afford better hardware to run the search function on, and it keeps getting overloaded with requests. – Qxz 18:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Robert McHenry quote

The quote is as follows: "The user who visits Wikipedia to learn about some subject, to confirm some matter of fact, is rather in the position of a visitor to a public restroom. It may be obviously dirty, so that he knows to exercise great care, or it may seem fairly clean, so that he may be lulled into a false sense of security. What he certainly does not know is who has used the facilities before him." The Page History sort of throws the quote out the window, doesn't it? I know who used the facilities, it was 127.0.0.1 and RandomUser13, and I can see they did this yesterday and that an hour ago. thoughts? --MulletManDan 20:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

But do you know who that really was? Anonymous knows. —Malber (talk • contribs • game) 20:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment from 24.144.137.244

uh,y would wiki put this here?24.144.137.244 18:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Why not? – Qxz 18:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

History

Quote:

Likewise, Robert McHenry, former editor-in-chief of Encyclopædia Britannica said in November 2004: "The user who visits Wikipedia to learn about some subject, to confirm some matter of fact, is rather in the position of a visitor to a public restroom. It may be obviously dirty, so that he knows to exercise great care, or it may seem fairly clean, so that he may be lulled into a false sense of security. What he certainly does not know is who has used the facilities before him."[10]

What Mr. McHenry describes sounds awfully familiar... perhaps like the history tab? This quote has been bothering me for some time, because everybody knows exactly who used the facilities before them. I would like to see a sentence or so pointing out this fact, just a thought. Comments? --Hojimachongtalkcon 01:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

You can see the history, but you still don't know who the editors are - I think the point is that the edits are made by people whose bona fides you can't check or have confidence in. BTW - online Brittannica defines WP as an encyclopedia, contradicting McHenry's quoted comments in the suitability section of this article.--Shtove 11:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Interestingly, most articles in the "Micropedia" part of the print Britannica aren't signed, so you really have no idea who wrote or edited them. The encyclopedia only gives a general list of people who worked on the Micropedia. Also, a number of signed articles in both sections of the encyclopedia have an "Ed." attached to the signature, indicating that non-specified editor(s) contributed significantly to the article. So many times a reader can't be sure exactly who wrote or contributed to a Britannica article. This hasn't prompted McHenry to compare the Britannica to a public restroom. Casey Abell 13:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
However, Britanica purports to have editorial oversight, so it doesn't matter which junior editor wrote an article in Britanica because you're supposed to be able to trust that fact checking was done on it. There is no editorial oversight at WP which is why so much importance is heavily placed on verifiability through reliable, third-party, non-trivial sources that do have fact checking editorial processes. Now, whether or not you trust Britanica's editorial process as much as you trust those signs in restrooms that say, "Employees are required to wash hands before returning to work," is up to you. —Malber (talk • contribs • game) 15:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Anybody can "purport to have" anything, and anybody can be "supposed to trust" anything. Many errors have been found in Britannica, which indicates that its editorial oversight is hardly infallible. I agree that a decision to trust Britannica's oversight is completely subjective. What is objectively true is that many (actually, most) articles in the print Britannica are unsigned and thus not attributable to specific individuals. Casey Abell 15:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

complete re-write

There are a number of issues being raised about the article as stated above, but nothing to convincingly justify the necessity of a complete re-write. Even if this step were taken, the page would undoubtedly be amended and edited so as to re-address the exact same issues, thus accomplishing nothing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.240.76.159 (talk • contribs) 20:27, 18 February 2007.

Many of the criticisms currently in the article shouldn't be there. Some of them are internal problems that are unknown to anyone not actively participating in Wikipedia because they have not been mentioned by independent reliable sources. These need (and have) discussion on appropriate project pages but do not belong in this article. Others have been added by disgruntled former or banned contributors and it's debatable whether they are valid criticisms at all; there certainly aren't verifiable sources for them. The article should stick to what has been covered in the media, who largely stick to the issues of accuracy and reliability – Qxz 16:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Larry Sanger

Is there any reason he was identified as "former Nupedia editor-in-chief" instead of "Wikipedia co-founder"? I think his criticism is better noted on the basis of him having a connection to Wikipedia instead of simply him having a connection to just the Wiki process. To leave out his involvement in Wikipedia lessens the impact of his criticism.Dookama 12:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

It probably has something to do with this: [1], [2]. —Malber (talk • contribs • game) 18:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Those are.... interesting and slightly disturbing logs. --Dookama 19:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Red Link

Just so it's known, the Daniel Brandt article was deleted without review by Yanksox and it's currently being disputed. I'd reccommend leaving the link in until the issue is resolved. --Dookama 19:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Nauseating American viewpoints

I cant find it mentioned anywhere, that there is so much US biased content on wikipedia. It was mentions that English speaking nations had more contributers but this does not cover the nauseating viewpoints of Americans for example the article on WW2 has the war in the pacific at the top of it despite the fact that the war in Europe was more important and interesting and this is one of the most popular articles in wikipedea. The article railroad car should be called a proper correct English term as railways were invented in the UK, this would match wikipedias own rules, but Americans must have their egos pandered to. As for the article Empire State express I deleted ridicules claims by Americans out only to be accused of being anti American. I can bet you there will be a yank who will remove this information as he will be unable to accept the truth.Oxyman42 22:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

A quick perusal of Talk:Empire State Express shows that you engaged in personal attacks and unwarranted, unfounded accusations of sockpuppetry there. As for the name of Railroad car, that name follows WP:NAMING and WP:ENGVAR, so there's no reason to change it. --Tkynerd 14:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
You do realise that your response is an ad hominem attack, right? --ToobMug 10:35, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Right there with you buddy. I find the censorship by members of the American public ridiculous and highly damaging. Wikipedia is, in places, liable to become another American propaganda machine. I propose leaving the American Wikipedia to the Americans and establshing an English Wikipedia, with English version articles. It might be an idea to prevent all but proven Englishmen and Englishwomen editing it. Sadly, I fear it is an uphill struggle. There's just too damn many of them. Spite & Malice 11:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

A fantastic idea, an English wikipedia. That way the rest of the world doesn't get american spellings of english words rammed down their throats. I will suggest this to some webwise friends of mine, watch this space! ;)

I don't like having british spellings of english words rammed down my throat, but I just deal with it, ok? And who is to say that the war in the pacific isn't more interesting than the european portion of WW2? Assuming that the european portion of WW2 was more interesting is a very egotistical eurotrash point of view. And as for an american propaganda machine, would that really be worse than a european/british propaganda machine? The complaints presented here are so ridiculous that it is almost laughable. 76.188.14.219 01:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I would personally enjoy a Wikipedia free of British (mis)spellings, even though I happily make reverts like this one in order to follow Wikipedia policy. --Tkynerd 14:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
An "English" Wikipedia with biases towards British viewpoints would be no better than an American-biased Wikipedia: BOTH ARE BIASED. Period. Neutrality means that all significant viewpoints get their fair shake, and by definition if they are relevant MUST include American viewpoints but should also not be biased in favor of them. Nor should it be biased in favor of any other country's viewpoints. Just because America may not be all that great doesn't mean that everyone else is automatically the best. There are countries out there just as bad if not worse. This tends to get lost a lot. mike4ty4 19:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting Phenomenon of Improvement

Notice how pointing out in this entry problems can cause them to be solved? There is a portion that talks about how the entry of 'feminist science fiction' was deleted, but now links to that entry, alive and of seemingly good quality, for instance. Maybe we should state the existence of the phenomenon explicitly in the entry, as well as putting mentions of resolved problems properly in past tense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.67.178.229 (talk) 06:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

Conservapedia

Should we add info from this link? - Ta bu shi da yu 08:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Only if it's considered to be a reliable source, and if those criticisms appear in another, independently published work. —Psychonaut 04:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The Grauniad has A fact of one's own as an opinion piece which mentions this list. ... dave souza, talk 22:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Essjay Issue

Please do not remove sections of this article without providing a valid reason for doing so. Especially if you are a Wikipedian. This section is meant for criticisms of Wikipedia and should not be subject to censure.

That would be... you, as well as everyone else who will edit this page. Perhaps you shouldn't add unsourced information without a valid reason? --Hojimachongtalk 23:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The article had proper citations. If there was a problem with the citations, that should have been noted in the discussion for fixing, instead of complete removal of the article. Completely removing an article critical of Wikipedia without providing valid reasons is akin to censure. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.195.15.169 (talk) 23:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC).
As I am one of the editors who removed the section, let me explain. The last sentence of 128.195.15.169's edit gave his/her personal interpretation for for why no disciplinary action was taken. That's POV and original research, and would be removed even if the article were not about Wikipedia, its founder, and its administrators. (That's not to say that the rest of the edit was okay, just explaining that that was what I particularly objected to.) ElinorD (talk) 23:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
If the problem was only with the last sentence, why remove the entire section instead of just the offending sentence? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.195.15.169 (talk) 00:02, 2 March 2007 (UTC).
I didn't say it was only with the last sentence. In fact, I said that I was not saying that the rest was fine, but was explaining that that was what I particularly objected to. ElinorD (talk) 00:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Hm. If there are no citations (by the type of sources described on WP:N and WP:RS), it's probable that the event is not notable enough for inclusion in the article. Censorship is in the motive, not the action in itself. Motive: an interesting and applicable word here. In addition, there are no reliable sources on who Essjay is (of which I am aware), so WP:BLP might apply. GracenotesT § 00:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, but Gracenotes put it better than I could have, which is why I just explained my objection to the last sentence! ElinorD (talk) 00:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Included in the references in the Essjay subsection was the article in The New Yorker in question, which also contains an editors note that they discovered after the article was written that Essjay was actually a 24 year old with no advanced degrees or teaching experience. Also included in the references was a copy of a letter written by Essjay where he used his credentials and experience as leverage in an argument. The New Yorker is a very reputable magazine and should be more than enough of a reference. Additionally, Essjays own page has been edited to show that he is indeed a 24 year old with no advanced degrees or teaching experience. How much more evidence and how many references do you need? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.195.15.169 (talk) 00:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

← The New Yorker didn't say that Essjay's real name is Ryan Jordan. It only said that Essjay said that his real name is Ryan Jordan. How does the New Yorker article use this incident as a criticism of Wikipedia? Obviously people disagree on whether Essjay should be criticized for this or not, and if you're mentioning in an article, it should have a bit of sourcing. GracenotesT § 00:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

A favorite adage, by the way: "the plural of anecdote is not data". GracenotesT § 00:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Look, I'm trying to not let my systemic bias get in the way, and refer to policies and guidelines, but it's clear that we both have bias, 128.195.15.169. GracenotesT § 00:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I made a major edit change to the article in question, moved it under the existing New Yorker article subsection, removed any POV problems, and added a lot more references. Please let me know if it is up to standards. 128.195.15.169 01:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I do have problems with the statement "Many other examples where Essjay used his purported credentials as support exist as well." The citations after it do not indicate that Essjay referred to his credentials, but rather to his knowledge of the subject. GracenotesT § 01:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Some quotes by Essjay from the references you are questioning to show why they are relevant:
  • I am a scholar of Roman Catholicism.
  • I'm not Catholic, I just study Catholicism.
  • I've been a Catholic scholar for years, and I couldn't tell you know how many times I've heard this myth, in and outside class.
All of these statements imply that he has credentials.
(Butting my head in) I strongly disagree that these statements imply he has credentials. I have read the diffs in question, and nothing he said in them indicates to me that he has an advanced degree in anything. He merely says he is a 'scholar' of Catholicism. Furthermore, his knowledge seems to back that up. I encourage you to look up the word scholar. --Otheus 17:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
If he claims to have degrees on his User Page, it backs the word up with implied years upon years of formal study. And I think the last one in particular implies credentials. "in and outside class" paired up with "years" implies that the issue has come up over and over and over again -- and how many issues come up in several different classes over a course of years? Probably just a handful and probably not something that's untrue (you would hope as much, anyway...). So the statement has an undercurrent that suggests that Essjay teaches some classes on Catholicism on top of the suggestion of his credentials. --Dookama 18:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Again, those statements themselves do not strictly imply degrees or official credentials. Essjay could be an erudite who went to Catholic school. But, yes, in that context of his user page, etc, it would. Unfortunately, all those pages were deleted, and as I understand, they had been "corrected" a little while ago, and I have been unable to find any cached page, etc, that has this. I'm not justifying Essjay here, merely playing devil's advocate, addressing a specific, minor point.
Also, you removed this quote from the article which I believe to be very important:

I am a tenured professor of theology at a private university in the eastern United States; I teach both undergraduate and graduate theology. My Academic Degrees:

  • Bachelor of Arts in Religious Studies (B.A.)
  • Master of Arts in Religion (M.A.R.)
  • Doctorate of Philosophy in Theology (Ph.D.)
  • Doctorate in Canon Law (JCD)
I admit that I did forget to reference it. The correct reference is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Essjay/History1&oldid=21137993128.195.15.169 01:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
There's no reason to do this when it can be accurately summarized. While Essjay (according to posts on his talk page) is not a tenured professor, there's no indication that he doesn't actually study Roman Catholicism. GracenotesT § 01:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
It's good form to provide a direct quote when it's as relevant and important as Essjay's admission in that User History. I don't think you can sum up things any better than he did himself.
But... if he claimed to have a doctorate of philosophy in theology, then wouldn't he be backing up his claims with false credentials -- so it wouldn't really matter if he studies Roman Catholicism. The point of the criticism is that people can back up their edits with false credentials, so removing the credentials that Essjay claimed to have needlessly dulls the criticism. I haven't looked into it thoroughly, though -- this is just an initial impression. I'll either edit this comment or add another if I change my mind after looking into it more. --Dookama 01:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
The point of the article is not to criticize Essjay, it's to describe and summarize criticism about the situation. Dulling criticism is perfectly fine. Dulling representation of the criticism is not, and the inclusion of the direct text does not affect this. GracenotesT § 02:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
After looking things over a bit more, I'd argue that the wording should mention his claims to a doctorate in canon law. The rest are superfluous. It should really just mention the Ph.D. in Canon Law and his arguments on Catholicism, since those are the only arguments he's sourced as having used his purported credentials in. The other lower degrees don't really need mention (possession of a doctorate implies a bachelor's and master's), though the fact that two doctorates were claimed to be held merits mention. Something like, "Two doctorates, one of which was in Canon Law..." would work. --Dookama 02:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
To pontificate, "with four academic degrees" explains the situation well enough, in my opinion.

Also, I think it's important that I explain why I find this important enough to write an article about and then defend it. I think that this whole situation is really bad for Wikipedia. Not only was a Wikipedia Admin caught lying to a reputable magazine about his credentials, that same admin was never punished for his actions. In my eyes, this really sets a precedent that it's OK to lie on Wikipedia, since even if you get caught, nothing is going to happen to you. This whole thing is preposterous, and I think it's flat out ridiculous that he can get away with this. You can't have people like Essjay running your site and expect people to take it seriously. Essjay's continued existence as a Wikipedia Admin is a major criticism for Wikipedia - that's also why I included the fact that he hasn't been punished for his actions and continues to be a Wikipedia Admin at the bottom of the article.

That's a valid point of view (one which I don't exactly hold), and my sole problem with the inclusion of the "Essjay's adminship has not been revoked" indicates that it should have been, which does not adhere to a neutral point of view. And looking through blogs and stories about this, I do not see many people clamoring for Essjay's status as an admin removed. GracenotesT § 02:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
How about something like "Essjay's adminship has not been revoked, in large part due to an unspoken consensus among the community that he still deserves his adminship"? Not that exactly, I'm horrible at wording things like that, but something along those lines would be a good compromise. It would preserve NPOV and put in the fact that someone feels needs to be included. --Dookama 02:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Here are some people who have the view that Essjay's status as admin should be removed:
And in case you're curious how this all started: here a link to the thread where he was accidentally found out:
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=2778&st=0 128.195.15.169 02:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Dookama: if you can find a citation for that (since analyzing a community must have a source), go ahead and add it. Personally, it's not worth mentioning that nothing happened because nobody talked about it. 128.195.15.169, I'm sort of in an awkward position here, because on one hand your comment about Essjay not being de-sysopped is very POV, but on the other hand I don't want to seem like I'm censoring your beliefs. GracenotesT § 02:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, the fact that it's 'unspoken' would merit it not being citable . . . and considering that there are citations of people calling for him to be desysopped, would it be okay to add in, "Essjay has not been de-sysopped, though external sites have provided outlets for those who think he should be"? I think blogs and all that are considered non-notable sources (which I don't agree with, but that's neither here nor there), though... and that's where most analysis of a community comes from. --Dookama 02:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, communities are notoriously difficult to source information about. GracenotesT § 02:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Gracenotes:I made some more changes to the article to try and remove the POV problem, please let me know what you think of it now. I really do appreciate your help in this matter and I want to let you know that. 128.195.15.169 03:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Since so many have feared a surge of criticism in the press, I'd a look at Google news and found... not very much interest. It hardly seems to have escaped the blogosphere. However, the Inquirer includes the exciting revelation that "Essjay is a member of the Wikipedia management team and makes daily decisions about what information is accurate or not." Wow! And here was me thinking that we all did that! ... dave souza, talk 20:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Try wording things a bit better -- and just because there's not a firestorm of news stories doesn't mean that it's not a relative surge. --Dookama 20:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
No incivility intended, don't really see where you've found it. Just my ironicish way of pointing out that the Inquirer has ideas of what Essjay's duties entailed which I found surprising. No doubt a culture clash, for which I apologise. The relative surge is indeed there, what's surprised me is the absence of stories in sources I'd have expected to run it. Is Slashdot losing its grip? ... dave souza, talk 22:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Incivility? My arse. DS worded things just right. On the lack of interest, maybe it's the fact that the Essjay part of the New Yorker article is the dullest part of a good piece of writing. Or maybe nobody cares about WP anymore. Boo hoo. Anyway, Dookama is "unimportant".--Shtove 23:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of Wikipedians

I have a great idea for a new article which parts of this article may be applied. Please start a new article titled Criticism of Wikipedians and I will meet you at the stub. --QuackGuru 17:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the navel-gazing on this article bad enough? ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 18:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
This new article proposal is a wonderful idea. It will keep us honest, improve policy, and avoid scandals in the future. --QuackGuru 18:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
At present only two Wikipedians have notable criticisms as Wikipedians- Jimbo and Essjay. That isn't enough for an article. JoshuaZ 18:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Make that three - Alan Mcilwraith However, I have my doubts whether there should be an article specifically to critise other editors unless we are happy to have it soley as a troll magnet - Munta 18:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Allowing internal policy considerations to drive mainspace article content seems a bad idea because the purpose of articles should be to inform the reader. Efforts such as you are talking about more appropriately belong in project space. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 18:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
So... we shouldn't... inform the reader about criticism of Wikipedians just because it would be written by Wikipedians and (probably) looked at the most by Wikipedians? I think what you're implying with "the purpose of articles should be to inform the reader" is that people don't care about Wikipedians -- just Wikipedia. I disagree with that and think that at some time, it would be appropriate to make a Criticism of Wikipedians article. As it is, there are enough people to make the article, but I think it should wait until there's more substance to make the article. --Dookama 22:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
No, I was simply analyzing QuackGuru's reasons for proposing such an article, which were that the article would serve as useful self-criticism. If there is outside interest (i.e., reliable sources have written about it) in such criticism, WP should do an article on it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ObiterDicta (talk • contribs) 23:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC).
Okay, the way you worded that it just sounded like you were saying that there is not and should never be an article about criticism of Wikipedians -- and while I don't think there's enough out there to merit an article now, I think there probably will be in the future. --Dookama 23:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The article Criticism of Wikipedia is detailed enough as it stands.--Ianmacm 18:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

If you're looking for something to keep us honest, QuackGuru (nice username, by the way), try to implement it in project namespace: pages beginning with "Wikipedia:". It would be infinitely more effective. GracenotesT § 18:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Bullying and attempted control of outside mediums

I was browsing through the junk heap that is Wikipedia looking for some scrap that I might be able to use in a Usenet post or two when I came across these remarks on someone's user page. Can you honestly read that and tell me that the person isn't completely crazy? Since when is Wikipedia trying to push itself on the entire Internet? This is ludicrous, and if it's true I really, REALLY feel like going out onto random websites and saying obscene and nasty things about Wikipedia contributors. --The Bede 04:14, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Moved from article namespace --h2g2bob 05:53, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Hillary Rodham Clinton's biography

I removed the section on Hillary Clinton's biography but it was put back. Space was the main reason for removing it, as the article is already becoming too long. The error mentioned in Hillary Clinton's biography was an inaccuracy rather than a glaring mistake, and even professional journalists do this sort of thing from time to time. It is not in the same league as the Seigenthaler affair and is probably not worth a whole section.--Ianmacm 07:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to remove it as it makes a valid point against the theory that articles can be expected to continuously improve and that errors can be expected to be caught and removed quickly. I did move it and the section immediately above it into the first section ("Criticism of the concept") because they don't belong in "Criticism of the contributors." I also removed the first sentence of the Clinton material because it made the whole thing sound like a debate rebuttal. --Tkynerd 13:28, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't like removing things but am becoming concerned at the article's ballooning length. The claim about Hillary Clinton's valedictory speech seems to have been made in good faith and is a fairly minor mistake by Wikipedia standards. There are probably far worse errors out there right now.--Ianmacm 16:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you're missing part of the point: Yes, the Clinton edit was probably made in good faith. That's the point! We have other examples of vandalism or obviously wrong or libelous information persisting on Wikipedia. Clinton's non-status as valedictorian is an example of positive information -- the sort of minor detail that wouldn't jump out at most readers, unless they had read any one of the many books on Clinton, as an error. That's why this is a valuable example: minor error in a prominent article, made in good faith, which will then be repeated at Answers.com and in a thousand student papers. And it survived thousands of edits by Wikipedians. KillerAsteroids 18:53, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

This single example doesn't deserve an entire section, but it's a helpful reminder of the difficulty of fact-checking. So I moved it to, you guessed it, the "Difficulty of fact-checking" section. I also cleaned up the footnotes and squeezed the material into a single paragraph. The article is getting awfully long, but it's hard to decide what to axe. Maybe we can cut down the Essjay stuff after the main article on the controversy finally stabilizes. Casey Abell 18:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I never intended to excuse the mistake, only to put it in context. All Wikipedia articles need to be checked by knowledgeable people, and most Wikipedians are not experts on the finer points of Hillary Clinton's career. The biggest problems facing Wikipedia are huge errors, vandalism and lack of neutral point of view. The Hillary Clinton error does not fall into these categories, but I am happy for it to be used as an example of the need for fact checking.--Ianmacm 11:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

How much more improvement until this article receives featured status?

Would anyone be interested in doing such a thing? --Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 03:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, I think that quite a bit of work would be needed before FA status was granted. Parts of the article are still overlong and wordy, although it does make many useful points.--Ianmacm 08:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be better to try to get Wikipedia itself up to featured status, before doing such a thing with the related articles. It's a good article already, but there are/were problems (see recent peer review). This article needs improvement to get it up to even "good article"-ish level, though I'm not sure it would actually be approved as one even then – Qxz 09:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Removal of unsourced and non-RS compliant material.

Per this edit, I removed material. 1) anon blogs are *not* WP:RS compliant. 2) the other cited source from Info Week doesn't talk about the other attack site. Thanks, - Denny (talk) 22:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

While you may be right in accordance with a strict interpretaton of policy, it is rather ironic that you deal with a complaint that Wikipedia censors out references to certain critical sites by... well... censoring out references to those sites. (See Self reference) *Dan T.* 23:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Why would any main article space article be exempt from policy? - Denny (talk) 23:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Indeed the funniest edit I have yet to witness on this project, SqueakBox 23:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
If the criticism or criticizing website is worthwhile or notable, it will meet RS. ;) - Denny (talk) 23:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Like Wikipedia Watch. Would your new attack proposal want to ban that from this article were it ever to be made policy? SqueakBox 00:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
It depends on concensus/judgement of a policy nature, I suppose. Do you think that the hivemind and hivemind2 pages are "attack sites"? - Denny (talk) 00:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Well the hivemind page is an attack site, IMO, yes. I am not happy to see my real name there because while it never took much to figure out who I am I have never given out my name on wikipedia, and he may have outed me through another third party blog ()from annon banned occasional wikipedia user). I was linking to hivemind on my user page and was asked not to which I was happy to do on my user space but even as an attack site I think there are strong arguments (a) to link to it on wikipedia and (b) to make those links live. its also controlled by a web master and thus mucgh easier to judge to be an attack site than a forum would be, but if it was to be labelled as such I would want that either to be through consensus on this page or another page where community discussion occurs (as in afd's, rfa's etc), SqueakBox 01:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia: A Techno-Cult of Ignorance

http://www.aetherometry.com/antiwikipedia/awp_index.html

The entire ebook can be found at this link. It'd be nice if someone could incorporate this link into the article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.36.58 (talk • contribs)

No limit to hours per day editing

People can edit Wikipedia for 24 hours straight without sleep. I think this leads to dominant editing of Wikipedia. There should be a limit of say twelve hours per day. Dhammapal 10:15, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd have thought it would lead to dormant editing, and obviously there's a limit of 24 hours. Surely no-one can edit continuously, but your scheme would prevent insomniacs from making any edits during odd hours. Just a thought, must take a nap. .. dave souza, talk 10:22, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
It must be possible for the Wikipedia computer to pick up where someone has made at least one edit every hour for 12 hours. I am not suggesting a curfew (there are different time zones), but more of what we call in Australia a cooling-off period.Dhammapal 10:32, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

A Library of Alexandria of Links (The True Story of the Co-Founding of Wikipedia)

OK. Lets review the facts:
  1. It does not matter what Wales' opinion or Sanger's opinion is.
  2. Undue weight does not apply in this case when facts must be written from a neutral point of view.
  3. What is th definition of founder. A person who established Wikipedia.
  4. Two people worked togther to establish and build Wikipedia from the beginning.
  5. When two people work together and start a project from the very beginning they will be both called co-founders.
  6. There was never a dispute when Larry Sanger was still part of this project.
  7. Some article refer to Jimmy Wales as 'the' founder but do not explain the co-foundership issue at hand.
  8. Mr. Jimmy Wales has never given any documented evidence for his new version (since 2004) of reality (revisionism).
  9. At the risk of repeating myself, Wales never disputed his co-founder position before 2004.
  10. I have provided strong evidence (references) to color the picture.
  11. Here are some references for Wikipedians to get to up to speed on the facts and the history of Wikipedia.
  12. By the way, the appeal for the verifiability of the facts is exactly what the Wikipedia community demands in its WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:ATT policies. It isn't my rule: it's the community's consensus.
  13. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/24/technology/24online.ready.html?#ex=1293080400&en=431aff478b00239e&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss Early Media Coverage
  14. http://www.larrysanger.org/roleinwp.html Links and more links
  15. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia&dir=prev&offset=20040119212409&limit=500&action=history Early versions of Wikipedia pages
  16. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_Wikipedia&dir=prev&limit=500&action=history Early versions of Wikipedia pages
  17. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Larry_Sanger&dir=prev&limit=500&action=history Early versions of Wikipedia pages
  18. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jimmy_Wales&offset=20040909053247&limit=500&action=history Early versions of Wikipedia pages
  19. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Press_releases/January_2002 Official Wikipedia Press Release of 2002
  20. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Press_releases/January_2003 Official Wikipedia Press Release of 2003
  21. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Press_releases/February_2004 Official Wikipedia Press Release of 2004
  22. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=2980046
  23. http://features.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/18/164213&tid=95&tid=149&tid=9
  24. http://features.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/19/1746205&tid=95
  25. http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2006/02/12/bias_sabotage_haunt_wikipedias_free_world/?page=4
  26. http://news.com.com/Wikipedia+co-founder+plans+expert+rival/2100-1038_3-6126469
  27. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,222922,00.html
  28. http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200609/wikipedia/

Wales and Sanger created the first Nupedia wiki on January 10, 2001. The initial purpose was to get the public to add entries that would then be “fed into the Nupedia process” of authorization. Most of Nupedia’s expert volunteers, however, wanted nothing to do with this, so Sanger decided to launch a separate site called “Wikipedia.” Neither Sanger nor Wales looked on Wikipedia as anything more than a lark. This is evident in Sanger’s flip announcement of Wikipedia to the Nupedia discussion list. “Humor me,” he wrote. “Go there and add a little article. It will take all of five or ten minutes.” And, to Sanger’s surprise, go they did. Within a few days, Wikipedia outstripped Nupedia in terms of quantity, if not quality, and a small community developed. In late January, Sanger created a Wikipedia discussion list (Wikipedia-L) to facilitate discussion of the project. At the end of January, Wikipedia had seventeen “real” articles (entries with more than 200 characters). By the end of February, it had 150; March, 572; April, 835; May, 1,300; June, 1,700; July, 2,400; August, 3,700. At the end of the year, the site boasted approximately 15,000 articles and about 350 “Wikipedians.”[3]

Yours Cordially, :) - Mr.Gurü (talk/contribs) 21:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I've been muling over this issue too, at wikinews:user:h2g2bob/JvL. Perhaps the best explanation is Larry's: User:Larry Sanger/Origins of Wikipedia. As I see it, Larry was a full time employee at Nupedia, so "co-founder" would not be appropriate. However, Larry set up and was project leader for Wikipedia during the early years, for which he deserves considerable credit. --h2g2bob 12:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, no. He was a full time employee of Bomis, so whatever argument goes for Nupedia goes for Wikipedia too.--Shtove 15:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo as de facto leader

I have provided several references from sources normally regarded as reliable – Associated Press, The Times, and a scholarly paper by two university professors (one from Transylvania!) – for Jimbo as the project's de facto leader. This seems to be a way out of the sterile "co-founder" dispute. The media don't regard Jimbo as the Big Guy at Wikipedia because he's the founder or co-founder. He gets that status because he is, well, the de facto leader of the project. Could Larry Sanger have unblocked Daniel Brandt and made the decision stick until he decided to rescind it himself? The de facto leader status is not only verifiable from reliable sources, it's true. And we might as well admit it in the article. Casey Abell 22:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

What kind of understatement is that? Jimbo is our (select yourself):
  1. saint,
' This user is an adherent to Wikipedianism!
  1. prophet,
  2. demigod,
  3. mascot,
  4. icon,
This user is a member of the
Cult of Jimbo
  1. boddhisatwa,
  2. savior,
  3. god,
depending on the cultural/religious background. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 18:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Editing

I think one way to reduce the criticism of Wikipedia is to make the editing process of topics stricter and more difficult to do. Instead of just anyone editing a topic, I think that the edits should be made in the form of a submission that one of a team of editors would inspect, and accept or reject depending on the content. I know this sounds troublesome and complicated, but I can't think of anything else. All I know is that Wikipedia is way too vulnerable to both vandals and people who don't have their facts straight.

Mathew Williams 09:44, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia's philosophy is of an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Submissions are reviewed by non-expert volunteers at WP:RCP. Take a look at other models like Citizendium. --h2g2bob 12:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Edwina Currie

I have recently found this article where a few known people have commented on and rated their Wikipedia articles. Edwina Currie took the unimpressed approach and expressed her views, which included saying that Wikipedia was "less accurate than most gossip columns." She also quoted what the article stated about her appearance on Hell's Kitchen, which was vandalism unfortunately. I was wondering whether this should be included in the Criticism of Wikipedia article. Regards. Eagle Owl 10:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Names included in article

I think the names of Ryan Jordan and Alan Mcilwraith should be included. The inclusion lends weight to the anecdotal criticism. Removal inserts a marginal POV through exclusion of information. --Dookama 21:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)Nevermind, I get it now. --Dookama 22:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:FAC/WP:GAN

I'd like to nominate this as a featured article. In preparation for this, I've removed a couple personal names, as they have already received plenty of adverse publicity and there is no need for more (that would occur if this article were to be featured).

38.100.34.2 22:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

In 38.100.34.2's name,


--Dookama 22:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


Actually it let me put {{fac}}; what it would not let me (as an anonymous editor) do is create the required "subpage" Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Criticism of Wikipedia. Thanks.
38.100.34.2 23:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Created the subpage for you. Provide your reason, etc. --Dookama 23:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I am having second thoughts about this. For now, reverting my removal of the personal names. Please remove them again if this article becomes featured content on the site. 38.100.34.2 14:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I was about to suggest this at Good article nominees - I won't for now, but I think it should get feedback from GAN/FAC --h2g2bob (talk) 14:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a propaganda machine

Wikipedia has become a propaganda machine. Wikipedia has a certain political point of view “Political Correctness”, and all articles, which do not comply with this, is deleted or altered. Wikipedia’a policies are often used as an excuse to delete information from articles.

At times only selected sections of articles are deleted. This may change the balance of an article and it promotes only a specific Point of View or political agenda. Links to opposing information is deleted or sabotaged (by changing characters in the links).

It also appears as if official Government agencies are keeping a very close eye on articles in Wikipedia. The moment an article (which does not suit a certain political view) is posted or altered, the posted information is changed or deleted. Even the comments made in the discussion is deleted or altered.

· It should not be possible for one editor to change the comments of another editor. It is ridiculous that some other person can change or delete the comments you made on Wikipedia. (It is ridiculous that the person you are debating may change your arguments.)

· Opposing political points of views should be tolerated. It must not be possible to delete the comments of political opponents. This makes articles one sided. This results in the lost of credibility by Wikipedia.

· Editors (and their sock puppets) which continuously & immediate delete or revert the work of others should also be banned. Well-researched information is sometimes deleted because it does not promote the propaganda machine.

· The speedy deletion of certain articles is also ridiculous. If somebody starts an article on any political opponent, or person being critical of any matter, the article should not just be deleted. By doing this Wikipedia looses enormous credibility.

· Political opponents to current administrators need to provide proof of every single comment made on Wikipedia (with references to sources). When the same administrators make comments, they don’t need to provide the sources of information for verification. It is much easier for an administrator (or his sock puppet / friend) to delete opposing information, than to proof an editor wrong by publishing new information. (Let the information speak for itself).--Grasshut 06:34, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Quite unfortunately, you are right. And quite saddeningly, certain wikipedians will not go improve themselves only because another "trollish outsider" has taken the time to point out how ridiculous they are. KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 200.143.28.18 00:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I almost deleted the above :). Seriously, it was nice of you to provide zero links to the action you have described. --Tom 14:19, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
If he did have provided the links to the action he described, wouldn´t they probably be deleted? KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 200.143.28.18 00:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

University citation...

"Some university lecturers discourage students from citing any encyclopedia in academic work"

Only some?

As far as I know, there is not one accredited university who's citation requirements accept encyclopaedias. This appear to be a silly use of a weasel word to diminish one of Wikipedia's flaws. --Barberio 19:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Tired of the LIBERAL BIAS every time you search on Google and a Wikipedia page appears? Our study suggests that Wikipedia is 6 times more liberal than the American public. Now it's time for the Conservatives to get our voice out on the internet!

Actually, why should the universities cite wikipedia, when wikipedia contains lots of references itself? Unlike older encyclopedias. Wikipedia shouldn't be regarded as an old-fashioned encyclopedia. The criticism is obviously loopsided and compares apples (wikipedia) with pears (encyclopedias). Wikipedia contains much more, with somewhat less factual reliability, but much more extensive references. That's the nature behind interconnecting all facts of Internet (and some pseudofacts) in one information structure. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 17:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Conservapedia as alternative to Wikipedia

Conservapedia began in November 2006, as the class project for a World History class of 58 advanced homeschooled and college-bound students meeting in New Jersey.

Conservapedia has since grown enormously, including contributors worldwide. Conservapedia already exceeds the number of entries in the Oxford Dictionary of World History. Conservapedia is rapidly becoming one of the largest and most reliable online educational resources of its kind.

We don't make false claims of neutrality, as Wikipedia does. We have certain principles that we adhere to, and we are up-front about them. Beyond that we welcome the facts.

Retrieved from "http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:About"

And if you get a frontal lobotomy, you might actually find Conservapedia to be your liking. *Dan T.* 13:04, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
(ec) Riiiight. For an example of Conservapedia's "reliability," check out its page on Robert Byrd. Two sentences on his Senate career and the rest of the article on his membership in the Ku Klux Klan and how he used the word "nigger" in an interview. It neglects to mention his opposition to John F. Kennedy's presidential campaign on account of the candidate's Catholicism. Reading other articles pretty much confirms that its contents are limited to what you can learn from listening to talk radio. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 13:08, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I hope you're content with it, and I wish you good luck! I'll stick to Wikipedia. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 18:00, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The best thing that Conservapedia has going for it is the requirement that information added to an article be both verifiable and truthful. WP only requires WP:VERIFY and hopes that the fact-checkers of the publisher did their job. Yeah, fat chance. This leads to articles that are incredibly one-sided and often left-of-center in their perepective. Jtpaladin 23:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm? I was banned from Conservapedia for putting in the up to date unemployment figure for Sweden. The conservatives there liked the five year old figure that they had, to go along with a moronic paragraph showing that this was "proof" that welfare cripples the economy. Didn't work so well with the current (very low) figure, so they reverted it and site-banned me. The whole exercise is a bunch of self-congratulating of people who don't like to think. Sad mouse 22:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of Wikipedia, as posted on Conservapedia

The Dictionary Conservapedia (a rival of Wikipedia) has an Article about Wikipedia. This article contains links and inforation critical of Wikipedia. [4]

Examples of Bias in Wikipedia is posted on Conservapedia. [5]

A lot of the stuff on that list is just the bias of Conservapedia showing... they consider it "bias" when another site fails to exhibit biases compatible to theirs. *Dan T.* 04:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I can say the same about several Wikipedia editors(and no, I am not a conservatist, nor a liberal. I am already too old for such meaningless labels). KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 200.143.28.18 00:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I think someone should create a liberalpedia in response and to counter conservapedia. Conservatived frequently complain about liberal bias in wikipedia and the media, and yet neither prove the bias nor mention the conservative bias in political talk radio. Mrsmith93309 20:19, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The Golden Seal

Gold Seal Campaign:

What do you think of this? The administrators of Wikipedia establish a Gold Seal campaign for certain articles. This “Gold Seal” will indicate for a given article it’s factuality and lack of vandalism. Basically it will show..

1-This page is properly cited.

2-This page has been verified.

This will be an important step for Wikipedia. It means students, high school included will be able to cite Wikipedia in their work. As of now many schools do not allow students to this.

As for editing an article, It will still be allowed yet a person can easily revert to the Gold Sealed, verified page on Wikipedia. This will be an amazing step for Wikipedia, though difficult, it will allow readers to know for sure what they are reading is true. It will surely improve Wikipedia’s image in the public sphere. Of course someone will have to organize this, but in then it will be sufficient use of labour. -Mattawa

It is a good idea, but this is the wrong place to suggest it. Also, I would still never allow my students to reference wikipedia because as well as factual problems it has one aspect that makes it unsuitable for referencing - it can be modified. You should be able to go to the reference and see the identical document to what was read at the time of referencing, and in wikipedia you can not. Sad mouse 13:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Corporate Clout

There is a dangerous trend among Wikipedia administrators to take information from corporate web sites as gospel truth and to show complicity in allowing wholesale reproduction of their content. Such is the case of the entry for TV3 (Catalonia). The result of this insidious policy is to remove any critical references to the TV network (even though these are rigorously sourced) and to accept corporate propaganda at face value. Given the vast resources available to corporations, the outcome of such a misguided policy will simply be to replicate much of the "information" spewed out by the PR departments of major companies.

In fact, the article TV3 (Catalonia) is interesting for the conflict between the author of the above note and another editor. The article has now been locked down for five days by admin Moreschi with an edit summary of "Edit-warring". [6] We've already got a section in Criticism of Wikipedia about that. Casey Abell 19:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Media protraying vandalism to wiki articles as attack on celebrity himself.

Take a look at http://de.tmz.com/2007/06/12/sopranos-fans-whack-creators-wiki-entry/ "Sopranos" Fans Whack Creator's Wiki Entry" It seems that vandalism on wikipages is now being reported as if its organized smear campaigns.

--Wowaconia 08:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Daniel Brandt merge

This old revision of the Daniel Brandt article may have information useful for merging into this article.

Please delete the link above when this info has been merged. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

No thanks. Nothing worth merging. Thanks for informing us. This was tried before at this article and rejected. :) - Mr.Gurü (talk/contribs) 01:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Okie doke. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Famous Hoax

Question. There was a famous wikipedia hoax article about a fictitious war with Canada for Michigan’s upper peninsula. I don’t remember how I came across it. Can anyone direct me to that page?--Billwsu 03:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

See User:Hanger65/Upper Peninsula War. -- Satori Son 04:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
It's been deleted again and was last spotted in hiding here or here, not sure where else. I can't find it on web.archive.org at the moment. In any case, it appears to be a take-off on Toledo War, which is a real Wikipedia entry, but is surprisingly well-written for this particular genre. --66.102.80.239 21:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Porchesia (as a fictitious nation) is also a well-known WP hoax (Uncyclopedia has a page on The Porchesian Holocaust that got featured there). The original article, however, was a substub which had Porchess Island pretty much a "Lebanonese" (sic) overseas territory - it didn't read like fully-encyclopaediac content. --66.102.80.239 21:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Aggadah (Redirected from "Jewish mythology")

Wikipedia has articles about Roman mythology, Greek mythology, Hindu mythology, and even about Christian mythology. So the jews do not have their own mythology? The absurd things in which the non-atheist jews believe are not mythology, but the supreme truth that was revealed to them and only them by Yahwöh itself? Come on! Risvm teneatis, amici? Most sincerely, KSM-2501ZX. IP address:= 200.143.28.19 13:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Evidently, many people do not want to give to the jewish mythology its true name. So far, the average wikipediacs are not exceptions to the rule.
Signed: KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 200.143.28.18 00:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

CONTRADICTION: OPEN NATURE - CLOSED AUTHORS

point: Wikipedia's open-collaborative nature is the cause why "it has steadily risen in popularity since its inception, and currently ranks among the top ten most-visited websites worldwide, making it the largest encyclopedia ever compiled in human history and is still rapidly growing" (.../wiki/Wikipedia, Retrived 2007-06-23).
antagonist: Wikipedia's anonymity is the cause of:
1) criticisms questioning its reliability and ACCURACY: The truth of a piece of knowledge depends on its "correct" mapping with its referent (the entity of the real-world it reflects/maps). But subjectivity with which people perceive their surrounding world makes things difficult on to what is "correct". Then the "trusteness" on the author who says/writes something is a major FACTOR to what is "correct". Wikipedia has removed this factor and of course increased its criticisms!!!
2) wikipedia's trend to become a TOWER OF BABEL: What characterizes todays world knowledge is the MANY-TO-MANY relationships of concepts and terms (= concept designators). A concept is denoted with many terms and a term denotes many concepts. In this CONTEXT, if someone does not know, or misuse these relationships, he/she does not understand the meaning of a text/speech. The knowledge of the author help us to know (of course not always) the mapping of the terms he/she uses with the concepts he denotes. Wikipedia's anonymity increases the misunderstanding of its content.
Kaseluris, Nikos 10:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The article is too big

I think this article could afford to be split into several pages.

Right now it's crowded and poorly structured. It just runs together each point in a big list, without any attempt to discuss the common elements of the points under each major heading. I think that summarising each heading before going into the specifics, aside from being useful in itself, would set an agenda so as to maintain clarity of future edits.

It might also be useful to split the 'concept' section into 'concept' and 'content'. There seems to be a mix of theoretical and empirical criticism in there. --ToobMug 11:22, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

  • To say the least. It's a rather large, awkward, and disorganized collection of complaints. Some of the sections have more to do with self-criticism or former-contributor-criticism rather than what the world at large may say. See e.g. "Copyright issues". Some of the sections overlap greatly or are redundant. See e.g. "Usefulness as a reference" versus "Quality concerns". And I also don't know why we're rehashing the Essjay Controversy in such detail when it has its own article, and in any case this is an event and not itself a criticism - the actual criticism occurs at the end when someone refers to the event to make their half-hearted point. --Abu-Fool Danyal ibn Amir al-Makhiri 18:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
No doubt there's some redundancy in the article, but I think all the material is still interesting. We could try pruning stuff out, but the article would probably just build back up again. As for the Essjay section, the article Essjay controversy still hasn't reached stability, and there are rumblings on WikiEN-l about deleting it altogether. I'm a little antsy about reducing the Essjay section because it might eventually become the only extensive discussion in the article space about the incident. Casey Abell 13:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Interesting to Wikipedians, some of whom have standards of notability with regards to Wikipedia which are a bit off to say the least. For instance who has criticised Wikipedia over copyright? If the answer is nobody, then my feeling is that it is not pertinent at all, but at the very least, I would separate purely internal controversy from the other criticisms. As for Essjay, it'd still be available in the article history here to be revived if and when the main article gets nuked. --Abu-Fool Danyal ibn Amir al-Makhiri 14:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
For the record, I wouldn't argue for any immediate removal of content unless it was genuinely redundant. I just think it should be redistributed across several pages. I'm wary, however, that a hazard in doing this is that it gives each of those pages an excuse to reject specific items, and so criticisms wanting to be documented may find no page to live; and that will cause fights. Proper categorisation is important, but I don't have anything but a few vague ideas.
Perhaps an incremental approach could be taken, where this page is viewed as being uncategorised criticisms, and when it's agreed that there's enough of a theme between some of the items to warrant it, they can all move to their own page where the common elements can be discussed in more abstract terms. --ToobMug 17:13, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I strongly oppose any splitting, SqueakBox 22:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Are you going to discuss your reasons, or are you just sniping? Are you pro-appalling-mess, or do you think that it should all be stripped back and cleaned up in place? --ToobMug 21:58, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
This article will never be allowed to be split because the Wikipedian community is averse to criticism of Wikipedia and will work tirelessly to prevent any of it from spreading within Wikipedia itself. Don't waste any time arguing for a split. IT WON"T HAPPEN. --Fandyllic 6:35 PM PDT 21 Aug 2007
The mere fact that there's a main Essjay controversy article does suggest that creating separate articles is still very much possible. The problem here, I think, is the real dearth of reliable sources that make that a viable possibility for most sections. I do agree, though, that this article is getting really long and that it could use some pruning here and there. FWIW, J Readings 01:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

A split of the Fanatics and Special Interests section

Currently the section seems jumbled and confused. We have the history of the 3RR policy, we have a few sentences talking about liberal bias and then we have stuff about Wikipedia being the wild-west of encyclopedias and stuff about pro-pedophile activists....

How about we instead break it off to include a mini-section talking about the alleged liberal bias and the formation of Conservapedia (because all that could be expanded) and then we have some of the other stuff about the fanatics. Because, for one, I personally feel that we don't need to group liberal bias in with all this info on fanatics...But more than that it just seems jumbled. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 21:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Tabloid & Trivia

I didn't know Wikipedia article itself was this controversial. LOL! I wanted to add the following comment: Though Wikipedia has emerged as the largest tabloid and trivia resource of the Web, its usefulness as a real encyclopaedia for serious topics is hollow. Where can I add it?Anwar 16:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion would be your own user page. This article is already too bloody big, and in any case we shouldn't accept random, unattributed thoughts in any article. Their presence is one of the things that tabloidizes us and reduces our usefulness. Regards, --Hollow Man Dan (Abu-Fool Danyal ibn Amir al-Makhiri) 16:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
"entry on Coronation Street was twice as long as the article on Tony Blair.[12]"

In Wikipedias defence this could be down to the fact that Coronation Street has been running for a lot longer than Tony Blairs political carrear. Leaving more to write about 80.229.222.48 18:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Essjay section

It seems to me that the Essjay section deals too much with the details and timeline of the events of this incident, which is already covered in its own article. I think that the section should really should read more like one or two sentences on "what happened" (see how it is handled in the History of Wikipedia), and then start to get into the Criticism of Wikipedia. It is fine to criticize Jimbo's handling of it also, but that does not justify the five paragraphs of "event narrative" that are currently in that section.--76.220.203.159 01:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Was there anything else besides just referring the reader to the Essay controversy and a sentence or two that is needed to explain why it lead to criticism? Jimbo's reaction caused criticism also, but Sanger makes that clear. I guess my problem is that the Essjay section is disproportionately large, compared to the other sections. Really, the size of the section should be proportional to the Importance of the criticism and the whole Essjay incident did not really change much process-wise. A year from now, the bad press that it gardered will probably seem silly.--76.220.203.159 05:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know if there is any change in policy or nothing has changed. Is there any references about the ending or outcome to the Essjay story.  Mr.Guru  talk  23:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo proposed verifying credentials, which became Wikipedia:Credentials which was rejected on March 15. Ryan Jordan has not shown back up in any account that he admits to. The Essjay fell silent and remains so. All it really did was get people thinking more along the lines that Wikipedia Watch paints the project (well, WW used to be a little more anti-teenager): as run by people who are simply splitting their time between here and, say, MySpace.--76.203.48.177 01:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

incomplete article

I do not see anything about cyberstalking on Wikipedia or the incivility allowed here. Stalking is routine and persistant. The incivility is massive. I don't see this ending any time soon. Therefore, this kind of behaviour is only further encouraged. The facts should be in this article.  Mr.Guru  talk  23:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

What happens do Wikipedia's editors has not yet become a source of news. If they need to spend a month in hospital detoxing from their wikiholism, that might garner some press. Perhaps all the stalking and incivility are viewed by the outside world as just a bunch of hot air in the same vein as, say, ten of Usenet incivility and stalking were. Oh, but the Usenet article is semi-protected, soo... Peace in Our Time!--76.203.48.177 01:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

What should drive sections

I add that the section about Essjay has returned. This article is not about specific criticisms of Wikipedia. It is about the qualities of Wikipedia, both the articles and the community. The Essjay incident is one incident and you do the reader a disservice by suggesting that this was the criticism. Essjay is gone. (Well, Jordan could be back with a new account, but you know what I mean.) The problem is that Wikipedia has some fraction them are teenagers (by that, I guess I really mean "people who are unlikely to have a college degree" or unlikely to honestly be able to call themselves a professional anything), the unemployed and fringe elements who inexperienced, marginally educated or have hidden agendas. You sometimes get articles that sound like they were the transcript of an Ophrah Winfrey show taken by an intoxicated clerk. The Essjay incident is not the general problem that results in criticism of Wikipedia — it is the lack of qualifications of many of its editors that preclude them from make higher quality contributions to articles about math, economics, science, engineering and those other things for which, say, Nobel prizes are given and for which encyclopedias build their reputation as credible sources of information. Nobel prize winners do not have time to edit Wikipedia, but some people with qualifications do. The criticism is that they are in the minority at Wikipedia.--76.203.48.177 00:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess what concerns me is that if you pretend that Essjay was the problem, then you delude yourself into thinking that the problem has been fixed because Essjay is gone. Most of the professional news writers who commented on the incident were guarded with their criticism and kept it constructive. I think that you should really capture that and not just a short inventory of the criticism that the Essjay incident garnered (the inventory really belongs on the "Essjay controversy" page anyway). I still think that it is best to have a section take deals in a unified manner with the concepts of no credentials, faked credentials and unverified credentials. It is too easy to fall into the trap of simply saying that the Essjay incident is what really happened. And trying to day that it was about Wikipedia:Honesty to the community is also flawed: it is too easy to just day that Essjay lied so off with his head. Also, it does seem that Essjay and also User:Zoe were extremely thin-skinned about disapproval from Jimbo. Once again, The New Yorker said it best, this time back in 1993: it published a comic back then with the caption "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog." That truism is not going to change just because Essjay is no more. Here is a copy. The New York Times even ran a story about it in 2000: Cartoon Captures Spirit of the Internet. If you get a login challenge, then try this link. Granted, it is humor, but at least it is trying to say something larger (like all those professional writers in March were). Again, the Essjay incident is covered elsewhere. You should include criticism by subjects that are still true within Wikipedia's ongoing community. The facts of what happened in March now in the past. Get the big picture that is still relevant.--76.203.50.19 04:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The restored Essjay section includes discussion of credentials and their place (or lack of it) on Wikipedia. What the restored section doesn't do – and shouldn't do – is engage in personal editorializing about "teenagers, the unemployed and fringe elements who inexperienced, marginally educated or have hidden agendas" and "articles that sound like they were the transcript of an Ophrah Winfrey show taken by an intoxicated clerk." The restored section is a balanced, thorough, neutrally written account of the incident and the effect it had on Wikipedia's reputation and practices. Casey Abell 12:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
A neutrally written account of the Essjay controvery is not a criticism and is redundant. This aricle is not the place for a mini Essjay article. This specific section should focus on the lack of credentials and effects and not Essjay. Thanks.  Mr.Guru  talk  20:29, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
We have also renamed the section to > lack of credential verification.  Mr.Guru  talk  21:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Who's the royal "we"? And since when do we (royal or otherwise) not strive for a "neutrally written account" of everything in Wikipedia? Anyway, I have reverted back to the more neutral treatment of the Essjay controversy. There's no need for charged, heavily POV language about "no credentials, faked credentials and unverified credentials." A straightforward, neutrally phrased discussion of the controversy and its effects on Wikipedia is preferable to editorializing about Essjay as a "basis for doubting [Wikipedia's] accuracy and credibility." Also, there's no excuse for omitting any mention of Jimbo's public apology to The New Yorker. Again, we should try to keep the section as NPOV as possible. Casey Abell 12:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Request for a link from this page

I operate a website called: IHateWikipediaDOTcom. It is a domain name I aquired a while back. My current feelings about WP are mixed, and my specific domain name may or may not be rellevant. My site and its related blog are active. If you compare my site to WikiTruthDOTinfo, I think you'll conclude in some ways, my site is more current. Check WikiTruth's history on its main page. Since WikiTruth has a link on the article page, it seems it could be argued that a link to my site could be. It's certainly possible I will be blogging on this request goes? I have varied opinions about Wikipedia, and share some of Wales free market ideas. Have a look at my pages, but more importantly, my blog to see my perspective. Nanabozho 20:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I really don't know how to interpret the lack of comments? Would actually adding the link lead to a discussion of it? I just don't have the experience to judge the situation here. Nanabozho 05:25, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

It would be better to wait for other people to recognize your weblog as noteworthy and add a link to it. Tom Harrison Talk 13:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

That wasn't the answer I wanted Tom, but I'll consider it and go with it for the moment. A couple of other points. I don't have a sense of how important an issue this is to the admins and the people interested in this article at Wikipedia? The second point is, where is Kelly Martin's blog? I might argue that while she is a whole other league than I, from our two sites, you'd get criticism that was usually current. Thanks for your thoughts, and did you check out my guide for Noobs (on the main site)? Read that and then tell me I don't deserve a link. Nanabozho 02:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Kelly Martin's blog is here. I don't think it has much value – it's mostly score-settling with various Wikipedia editors. But occasionally there's some interesting criticism of the project. The latest entry, for instance, discusses possible problems if Wikipedia ever accepts advertising. Casey Abell 12:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

My impression of her, is that of a former devotee. Her knowledge would surpass that of most of the critics. Nanabozho 02:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

"Errors of Emphasis"

I read a brief but interesting piece (Google cache [7]) that referred to "errors of emphasis," the idea that the size and number of articles in Wikipedia pertaining to certain pop culture and current subjects outweigh those of important historical facts:

While outright factual errors and ease of vandalism are the main raps against Wikipedia, dumb errors of emphasis are incredibly common. Major historical figures get a paragraph or two, while ephemeral TV shows and video games are subject to lengthy treatises. (This is why Wikipedia has 1.9 million articles and the Encyclopedia Brittanica has but 120,000.) I note with amusement an entry on a Winnipegger whose main claim to fame was writing a Free Press editorial page column for a few years. The piece is longer than the entry on John W. Dafoe, the Free Press’s editor from 1901 to 1944 and one of the most influential journalists Canada has produced.

Note that the overall tone of the article is positive and the writer ends by stating his intention to tackle the Dafoe article and improve it.

I guess I notice this most in the summaries of individual TV show episodes. Should this be added? A number of people have stated that the article is too long already. Blotto adrift 19:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Already covered in Systematic bias in coverage. You could add maybe a sentence or two from the article, with a footnote. Casey Abell 19:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Didn't catch that. I'm not sure if systemic bias is the phrase I would have used, which is probably why I didn't notice it while scanning headings.Blotto adrift 20:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Gibberish

There seems to be a technical problem on this article. The whole last section is computerese. I'm not familiar enough with Wikipedia code to fix it myself.

Are your referring to this version of the article? There was a problem with the ref template that has since been fixed. Casey Abell 17:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Wiki Scanner and the SlimVirgin scandal

I noticed that neither piece is included in this article. These are the two most serious criticisms of Wikipedia in its history. Is there a particular reason why they are not included? 123.2.168.215 12:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia Scanner gets a fairly extensive writeup in the section Exposure to political operatives and advocates, with cites from reliable sources. The "SlimVirgin scandal" was a supposed outing that hasn't been confirmed or even discussed in any reliable sources. The former was an inrteresting story but hardly one of the two most serious criticisms of WP in its history. The latter was a personal attack with no reliable sources to cite. Casey Abell 13:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Difficult to see what you mean by "no reliable sources". Obviously the front page of Slashdot is not a reliable source for outright facts ("SlimVirgin is a spy[1]") but I would think it's notable enough to include something like ("an article appearing on the front page of Slashdot said that SlimVirgin was a spy"). Eleland 17:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
The ultimate source for the story was Ohmynews, a site not commonly regarded as reliable due to its lack of editorial control and self-publishing nature. WP:BLP considerations apply here. We can't just blandly report that allegations were made about a living person on Ohmynews. If reliable, independent sources investigate allegations about a living person published on Ohmynews and produce convincing evidence for them, then we can include such material in Wikipedia. Casey Abell 18:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Experts working full-time don’t have time to debate with amateurs

The quality problem with Wikipedia is not from vandals but from many amateurs who spend many hours each day following their watchlist for changes to their favorite contributions. Experts who work full-time in their fields don’t have the time to revert or even discuss ignorant edits. Does anyone have a solution for this problem? Dhammapal 03:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, its called Citizendium! C.m.jones 22:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
That is a failed project. Try Encarta or Encyclopedia Britannica instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.107.191.119 (talk) 06:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Biased - this is only about English media discussing the English Wikipedia

The article is a beautiful example of the very biases it talks about: Not only is it rather long, but simply not about Wikipedia per se. It only talks about how English media criticize the pecularities of the English Wikipedia... which are in part, but not in full similar to other Wikipedias. As it seems impossible that this article will become comprehensive any time soon, I suggest to change the title to something like Criticism of the English Wikipedia. --Ibn Battuta 10:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this particular problem is very widespread on the Wikipedia, mainly because the proportion of contributors who read other languages is quite small. This being said, I do not believe that a move is in order, rather, we should fix up this article by adding international perspective. You could also try {{Globalizecountry|English language}}; see Template:Globalize Eleland 11:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)