Talk:Crimson King

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[edit] MOTHER

I don't know if anyone has read the gunslinger born comics, but at the end of #2 it states that the mother of the Crimson King was an old one described as a great spider. Does anyone think this may be IT? IT was a female giant spider with great power, so was the Crimson King's Mother. Just a thought...

Since when was It female? It was just that: an it. That said, it seems very possible that this was an intentional reference to It (although I haven't read the Gunslinger Born). Still, it's too speculative to be mentioned in the article.72.202.143.28 21:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
It was female. This was pointed out in the novel near the end. But I don't think that the Crimson Queen = Pennywise because there are far too many discrepancies to ignore.--CyberGhostface 23:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
This has been discussed by for, but the general concensus seems to be no - It is described as an enemy of Maturin, the Turtle, an agent of the White, whereas the Crimson King is usually called "the Red" and is the primary antagonist to the White, an enemy of the tower itself - a more common theory is that It may be an aspect of the King or otherwise related, but either way the Crimson King (see my bit below about the two kings) -- that is, the Red, not the corrupted prior ruler of Thunderclap, is "the" baddie in S. King's multiverse. Zelse81 (talk) 02:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recent info on the CK

should new information brought to light in the most recent edition of the Gunslinger Born comic (issue 2). the issue talks about his relation to Arthur eld. i havn't actually read it yet, so i don't have all of the info, but if someone who has read it could add it.Blu elph44 20:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Top 'o' the Tower

I don't believe that the CK wastrapped on a balcony at the top of the tower, i believe that it was a lower balcony Blu elph44 23:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I only read it once, but I think you are right. — RevRagnarok Talk Contrib 23:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I just re-read it; it was "two levels from the base". --Mus Musculus 03:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some observations

At some point I may "be bold" and fix up this article, but there's a few things that should be changed sooner than later, IMHO: 1. There are two Keystone Worlds -- Keystone Tower (the only world in which the Dark Tower is actually accessible as a Tower), and Keystone Rose, where the Tower is represented as the Rose, with the significance of the latter being that any change in Keystone Rose is permanent, with time-travel et al being impossible -- hence why the Sombra Corporation wished to acquire The Lot in Manhattan: destroying the Rose in Keystone Rose would instantly destroy all other manifestations of the Tower & the Tower itself, thus destroying the multiverse.

2. Concerning the two Jakes: The two Jakes dealt with in the Dark Tower were created due to a combination of the contrivances of Flagg. This is due to the Dark Tower itself being a multiverse, as established in King's works. Jake & company do have twinners, but that isn't the only thing at work. Anyway, as it's explained in the book:

A. Flagg entered a reality and apparently possessed or otherwise inspired Mort to push Jake infront of the car which killed him.
As you may recall, the Gunslinger first thought it was Randall himself (or Walter, as he knew him) pushing Jake into the path of the :car, but later realized it was Mort but was sure that Flagg was nearby.
B. Flagg then transported Jake to the Waystation to be found by Roland.
C. Roland finds Jake, looming doom, etc, and eventually lets Jake die. Jake's death was the necessary sacrifice to
open the Unfound Door for Roland to find the Prisoner, the Lady of the Shadows, and Death.
D. While inhabiting Mort's body, Roland creates a temporal paradox by stopping Jake from dying. This fractures the timeline and
causes Roland & Jake to begin going insane, because they both have memories about both timelines at once. It's hinted that this
was exactly what Flagg wanted.

3. Concerning the Crimson King himself: It's my understanding, based on the sixth & seventh books, that the Crimson King exists as several forces. This is actually explained by Rando Thoughtful (I believe) when he meets Roland. To whit: There's an incorporeal King who exists in the room at the top of the Tower, in the rooms "above" mankind's reach. This is the same King that is the archetype of evil in the Dark Tower. His power seems to fluctuate, but is definitely there, as he manages to teleport people around in the Straub books. He is trapped, but still potent. One argument about King's work states that all of King's baddies derive from this archetype, hence the similarities, like obsession with heirs, spider-forms, and other such happenings. The second King is the one called Los the Red, who is trapped on the balcony of the Tower. This is the guy who ruled Thunderclap, blighted it, poisoned everyone in his court, blew by Dandelo's place, and attempted to take the Tower. He was human at one point (of the Line of Eld, just like Roland, hence how he was able to enter the Tower), but was corrupted by the King. The trouble with this (especially when you add in the hints, the multiplicity of the worlds in the Dark Tower, and the difficulty in figuring out which King is which) is that it is very difficult to figure out who did what when. For example, we know that the human Crimson King was the one who gathered and smashed several of Merlins' Glass, poisoned the court, swallowed a silver spoon, and then tried to take the Tower before Roland, but it's not clear whether the human was ever insanely powerful or not. The most common explanation I've read about was that the destruction of the Forge of the King created a "ripple effect" through the Tower and drove several incarnations of the Crimson King mad and de-powered many of them.

So, what we know from the books themselves: 1. The Crimson King was more powerful at one point than he is now (compare Straub to the King of the Dark Tower) 2. There are at least two Crimson Kings. The one trapped in the Tower itself, and the one trapped on the Balcony of the Dark Tower. 3. The King on the Balcony ruled Thunderclap and is descended or somehow related to Arthur Eld. (Some people think he may be Arthur Eld, what with the tapestry in the Dixie Pig) 4. Randall Flagg is older than one of the Crimson King's incarnations (he states that him serving the King is a new deal, and that he's been around longer) 5. Both of the Crimson King's avatars are at least moderately powerful. The one in the Tower had the ability to teleport. The one at Thunderclap/on the Balcony swallowed a silver spoon and died, then came back to life, thus being impossible to kill for Roland. Also, Rando mentions that the Crimson King at Thunderclap could easily have killed everyone in the castle with a thought, but instead made them take the "slow poison." Also, Thoughtful is trapped behind the Deadline, which the King drew. 6. While Flagg/Marten/Walter may be the same character, they're distinct from Maerlyn and the Crimson King.

This is even worse when you try to figure out Flagg's place in things -- is he, Linoge, & Leland Gaunt demons that form a part of Legion (a distinct set of beings from the Crimson King, as we know Flagg was human at one point): twinners with similar objectives? Are they derived from a Flagg archetype? Are they derived from the evil archetype of the King Crimson? Unfortunately, with Stephen's many hints and the vast amount of literature covered, we can never be sure, but we do have some things to go on in the text. If I don't end up doing it, anyone who wants to re-write this thing should probably consult, at the very least, the Straube books and the Dark Tower, especially the latter two books. Zelse81 09:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

You may want to take a minute and look at the {{todo|4}} template so you can format this into a checklist and spread it among the proper DT-related articles. — RevRagnarok Talk Contrib 12:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] King Crimson

Hey...I've read most of Stephen King's work but am not certain on all the publishing dates so bear with me...is the King referenced in any books/stories before the band formed in the 70s? If not, how could they have used it as thier name?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.78.4.225 (talk • contribs)

The Crimson King first appeared in Insomnia which was in the late 90s.--CyberGhostface 12:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

How can you remove an untrue paragraph when it is not only not a paragaph, but it's a statement of ideas put forth by people instead of a statement of opinion in and of itself? Calling that statement untrue amounts to saying that people don't think that, which is ridiculous.

But their ideas are patently untrue - in The Dark Tower, it's shown definitively that Flagg, the Crimson King and Mordred Deschain are all individual characters, not 'facets of the same personality' or somesuch. Proto 09:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Actually, he has a good point - the fact that the characters are seperate entitites do not mean that there are not multiple iterations of them in the Dark Tower. The precedence for this would be in the case of the multiple Jakes, and how the "real" Jake more or less went insane when he had to come to grips with deviating from his old fate. The idea suggests that Flagg, the Crimson King, and Mordred are all iterations of the Dark Man, Crimson King, whatever you want to call it, on different levels of the tower. Since there are linking thematic elements between them (Flagg and the King being obsessed with having an heir, the King and IT being represented as pregant females, Mordred and IT's "true" forms being twisted spiders, etc.), the idea is more than valid - and should be reserved because it is interesting if for no other reason. Further, taking off an idea because you disagree with it, especially when it's presented as a theory, is not sensible. Wyborn 05:56, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a forum - it's not a location for theories, research, and somesuch. However, if more than one person feels strongly enough about it, I don't have a problem with it being there, and won't remove it. That being said, I still don't think it's right. The multiple (two) Jakes stemmed from (as I remember) some weird fork in timelines thing (he should have died by being pushed into the street, then he didn't die cause Roland saved him, and he kept thinking he should be dead when he wasn't etc) ... not a similar enough situation to be used as a precedent. Proto 08:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I added the link Wyborn sent me to the DarkTower.net wiki where there are theories about the Crimson King. I think it's a good enough reference to include the theories in our article. On a side note, I just realized that this article should be at Crimson King not The Crimson King. I'm going to move the article when I have time to fix all the redirects/links. Lachatdelarue (talk) 14:31, 20

Jun 2005 (UTC)

I moved the page. In doing so, I realized that I was the one that moved it to include "The" in the first place. Guess it's only appropos that I fixed my own mistake. Lachatdelarue (talk) 14:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And, in fairness, there were at least three Jakes, and three Eddies, two Oys, etc. DTVII set the precedent for applying the "Twinner" theory to those characters even if nothing else did. Wyborn 23:04, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] King Crimson

Is the wording really close enough to include a link at the top of the article? Should we do this in all two-word articles where there is another article that reverses them? This linking policy seems a little overexuberant right now. Alfoor 05:42, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Los

Should it be mentioned in the article that Feemolo, et al refer to the Crimson King as Los. From reading the book, it sounds as if that is his name.

[edit] OR

Let's do this...

Contradictions (this entire section is OR, this page is ostensibly presenting the facts of his character, not speculating on his nature or extrapolating things from the book)

(weasel words) ---> Some see contradictory features of the Crimson King are mentioned in various books....The character was received as a particular letdown by some fans (speculative) due to the fact that the majority of his final conversation with Roland consists of high-pitched, guttural shouts of "EEEEEEEEE!" They felt it difficult to resolve the incongruity between the Gunslingers' greatest foe being reduced to such a pathetic state.

Fall from power

(weasel) Others see things differently. While the Crimson King projected the image of omnipotence in some stories and was certainly powerful, his omnipotence was in some sense the product of distance and fear. (speculative) Like Randall Flagg, his weapons were fear, intimidation, illusion and ultimately the power to convince others to do his will. The King was in particular never shown to ever be all that sane. (opinion) The goal of all his plots after all was the nihilistic desire to bring down the tower and destroy the multiverse. As the gunslinger drew nearer to the Crimson King, the truth of his kingdom was revealed. He was an old man surrounded by weak-willed followers using the last pieces of failing technology from the past to work his will through others. Broken in spirit by the failure of his plot to bring down the tower, he attempted to take it for himself only to fail and end up trapped. With regard to the Gunslinger, the ending of the story cycle revealed that his greatest enemy was himself rather than the Crimson King.(speculative) Ultimately, if Roland had faith in himself, his enemies would destroy themselves and the true path to the top of the tower would be open, which explains, in part, the resumption at the end of the tale. (unencyclopedic analysis)

(all theoretical speculation) There has been some speculation among those who see a radical change in the character; one theory suggests that after the events of Black House he lost most of his power. Another theory suggests that he is, in fact, the archetype which many of King's other villains, such as It, Flagg, and Mordred Deschain are iterations of in different worlds connected to the Dark Tower. This would mean that several events, such as the endings of Black House, It, and The Stand, served to weaken the Crimson King by disrupting several of his different incarnations simultaneously.

(unsourced speculation) A "unified" fanon theory suggests that the Crimson King is a representative (or possibly an avatar) of It on certain levels of the Tower. Therefore, when It was defeated, the King lost most of his power, forcing him to act through others (i.e. Atropos, Lord Malshun, and Flagg). This theory gathers most of its evidence from the King's nature as a "were-spider," as well as his mastery of illusions and description of himself as "the Kingfish" (which It called Itself on occasion.)

(speculation) Another possibility is that the Crimson King's weakness in the Dark Tower may represent Stephen King's judgement on the nature of evil. Rather than being a seductive or mysterious force, such as it appears from a distance in King's other works, evil is finally revealed as being ultimately pathetic and will eventually destroy itself without its opponents having to compromise themselves. That what is ultimately necessary to destroy evil is confront it and make a stand against it at which point it will collapse in on itself. This idea is similar in theme to those in The Stand.

(speculative) There is another theory concerning the Crimson King that he is consisted of two separate entities. The first of these is trapped at the top of the Dark Tower in a physical form in which he cannot escape. His second entity is the omnipotent/spiritual form from Insomnia and Black House. This form cannot affect the worlds in a physical way, but works through psychological influences to influence beings toward his will. Atropos and Lord Malshun are two examples of the King's work. The many events that weaken the King affect both his physical and spiritual manifestations.

Death

The Crimson King was partially erased from existence by Patrick Danville, a character from Insomnia who was foretold to defeat the King, leaving only his floating red eyes behind, forever trapped on the balcony to gaze over the Scarlet Field. (next part is non-reference criticism) Though having the ultimate villain defeated by a character which had only just appeared may seem anticlimactic (even though said character was an important character from a previous novel), The Artist did require Roland's blood (mixed with crushed petals of a Rose) to make the paint he used to draw the Crimson King. This procedure resulted in the loss of another of the Gunslinger's right hand fingers, completely preventing him from using this hand effectively from then on. To defeat the Crimson King, Roland, in effect, symbolically abandoned the use of his "guns" as a solution, demonstrating that he didn't need his weapons in the first place to reach the tower. (thematic speculation)


Alternative theories on the character (title alone IDs this entire section as speculative)

Villainous Links (overt similarities to other King villians could be presented but not expounded on philosophically)

Twinners (could have its own article)

(all rules concerning Twinners hypothetical and not needed in CK article)

This is all interesting stuff, but it belongs in a book report, a research paper or on a King forum, not in a Wikipedia article that could be less than 25 lines long. This article needs a major overhaul. ka1iban 20:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I added the "EEEE" part, and it's particularly notable because Stephen King fans have historically received his books very well. Remember that The Dark Tower story was revived in part because the initial run was so small that fans kept writing for him to republish it (several times, I beleive). I guess I could post a few links to message boards regarding complaining of this part in particular, but then it'll probably degrade into an edit war. Liu Bei 02:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Kill most of the article. Replace it with a stub, and rebuild. No speculation. 24.224.233.94 00:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

I'm cleaning up The Dark Tower Characters and am thinning the Crimson King section considerably, since there is a main article on him. For legacy, or pasting into this article, here is the original text:

The ultimate in evil, this mysterious figure wishes to conquer the Dark Tower and raze it to the ground. Since this will destroy the entire universe, he is naturally cast as the villain in The Dark Tower books. He is also present in another Stephen King book, Insomnia, and the second King-Peter Straub collaboration, Black House. He is also known as Ram Aballah, and once ruled from his castle in Thunderclap, but now is imprisoned on a balcony on the Dark Tower, which he had run to in a fit of madness that had taken him over. He believes that when the Tower falls, he will rule the Todash darkness that was once the multiverse. He is the one whom Walter/Flagg serves, whom the low men and taheen serve, and has opposed Roland of Gilead from the beginning. Like Roland, he is descended from Arthur Eld, but there is speculation among Tower fans whether or not he and Arthur Eld are the same individual. This is noted in the sixth book; when Susannah enters the Dixie Pig, she is confronted by a room full of low men and Taheen, who are eating roasted babies. As she looks around the room, she is also confronted with a tapestry depicting Arthur Eld eating the leg of a baby at the Round Table.

However, in the seventh book Roland notes that the tapestry is a 'blasphemous parody of Eld's Last Fellowship.' Presumably, the tapestry in question is a play on The Last Supper. If so, the depiction in the Dixie Pig is likely a perversion, and not a clue to the identity of the Crimson King.

The Crimson King is known by a number of names, including Los' the Red, Ram Aballah, The Aballah, The Red King, The Lord of Spiders, and The Lord of Discordia.


— RevRagnarok Talk Contrib 00:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing Introduction

The Crimson King is an immortal being with incarnations on most (if not all) levels of the Dark Tower, the lynchpin that holds King's multiverse together...
Am I the only person who was struck by the odd construction of the sentence above?
It almost seems as if the author was implying that the Crimson King's existence was necessary in order to perpetuate all of the worlds of the multiverse, in lieu of the beams-which are necessary for the perpetuation of humanity-when the exact opposite is the case.
The Crimson King's primary, if not exclusive, purpose in The Dark Tower saga is to destroy the beams, thereby catalyzing the end of humanity and life as the characters in this series have known it.
He only proceeded to use another tack, i.e. lure Roland to the dark tower, after his initial plan was foiled by Roland's ka-tet in Devar-Toi.

Ruthfulbarbarity 03:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it was probably just a confusing phrasing. Probably, the author meant to refer to the Dark Tower as the lynchpin, not the Crimson King. A rewording to make it clearer is probably in order. --Chesaguy 19:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
You're probably correct.
It could use some clarification.

Ruthfulbarbarity 23:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Bloody Hell, Stephen King overcomplicates things. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 17:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Dark Tower VII

Hi, I edited some of the Dark Tower entry as it seemed to jump from the Crimson King racing to the Tower to The Artist erasing him, without any explaination about who the artist was. Its not perfect by any means so feel free to edit what I've written. :) Darrek Attilla (talk) 12:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Duma Key

This section is the definition of what SHOULDN'T be on Wikipedia articles. Its speculation, pure and simple. Unless said speculation is reported by a reliable source, it shouldn't be posted.--CyberGhostface (talk) 20:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing

Who is Atropos and who is The Fisherman? Both are mentioned as minions of good ol' CK, but what novels are they from, and why are they relevant. The ref to Randall Flagg is good enough, because a link to the character is provided, but in what novel did King use the god Atropos as a villain? And who is The Fisherman? --MwNNrules (talk) 07:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)