Talk:Crimean War

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[edit] Reworking

I've started doing some reworking on the "Beginning of War" subsection, which needs a lot of work. Please bear with me, as it may take several days to finish. If you have comments, questions, or suggestions, shoot! --Laserbeamcrossfire 07:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Defeat

Citation:

"It has been suggested that the Russian defeat in the Crimean War .... bla bla bla"

Who wrote this is an idiot. Thank you wery much. Sanja

It could be legitimately argued that the Russian army in the Crimea was not defeated, but rather, it finished the war in a stalemated position. However it is also true that Russia's economic, industrial, technological, social, financial, and administrative backwardness rendered it unable to prosecute the war any longer. Hence, Russia was defeated.
Worse still, the diplomatic situation created by the Crimean War meant that any conflict between Russia and another European power would translate into, by definition, a conflict between Russia and an alliance of several European powers. Not since the 1500s had Russia been in such a disadvantageous position internationally. This was a defeat by any measure, and a bad one at that.
Kenmore 17:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)kenmore

Crimean War, result=Allied victory...What? The allies might have taken Sevastopol (and many more little towns) but what did they actually win in/from this war, they had greater casualties...and what did the Russians lose (territorially not diplomatically). I ask what the Russians lost because this was after all, on Russian soil. I don't know much on the topic so please enlighten me. Furthermore, I propose we state the that result of this war was the Treaty of Paris. Thanks Bogdan 03:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The Russians lost part of Bessarabia, territorially. Beyond that, the result of the war was clearly a Russian defeat - the demilitarization of the Black Sea was taken as a humiliation for Russia, and the replacement of unilateral Russian influence in the Ottoman Empire by a system whereby the powers as a group took responsibility was also clearly a defeat. The war was very clearly a defeat for Russia - I don't see how this could possibly be seen as anything other than a defeat. john k 04:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


Nope, in 20 years Russia rebuilt the navy in the black sea, since France no longer wanted to enforce the treaty of paris, and england could never enforce it alone. So it wasnt much a gain for the allies. Sure, England secured its domminance on the sea, and France won some glory. And russia modernized theire industry, adn country, and liberated the serfs. I belive it would be a stalemate. But jonh K, The Ottomans didnt win much other than prolonged life time. But, again, if the Russians hadnt surrended, then perhaps Austrai would have declared Russia war. Anyhow, it was a close run. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikitn (talk • contribs) 15:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Battle of Sinope

Hope not to have offended anyone with an edit on this page's reference to the Battle of Sinope. The entire Ottoman Fleet was not destroyed. The British and French were more concerned the catastrophic nature of the defeat, having pledged to protect the Porte and having a sizeable Allied fleet in the Bosphorous at the time, than were they worried about an amphibious Russian invasion of the Anatolian coastline.

--Kazhdenin 16:36, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The Turks were to blame for the action at Sinope, as they were not supposed to send warships or military transports into the Black Sea per the terms of the truce brokered for them by the Europeans. Admiral Nakhimov was entirely justified in attacking the Turkish flotilla at Sinope, as it was obviously transporting soldiers from Bulgaria to the Caucasus for action against Russia.
The Western European press described Sinope as a massacre in order to whip-up anti-Russian hysteria among the naive masses. Very few of the newspaper articles in England, France and elsewhere mentioned that the Turks themselves were to blame for having provoked the Russian fleet into combat.
Kenmore 17:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)kenmore

[edit] Well somebody's having fun with this article...

I see its now known as the 'Cock War'. Somebody responsible please edit it back.

[edit] Impact on Britain

Perhaps there's an argument for a spin off article on the impact on Britain. There were significant reforms stemming from the experience of Crimea.

As somebody mentioned above the British Army curtailed purchasing commissions as a result of Crimea. However there were much wider impacts, for example there was a more general and wide ranging reform of the British Public Sector and including abolishing the purchase of positions in the Civil Service I understand as well as a wider reform of the Army. Northcote Trevelyan REforsm of the Civil service, didn't that stem from Crimea too? Indeed perhaps Florence Nightingale's reforms of the nursing profession could be seen as part of this too??? Indeed the reforms seemed to be the "professionalisation" of these spheres of life. Basically there was a movement from Upper Class Aristoctratic patronage towards Middle class "meritocracy". Is there somebody out there who knows more about this?

The Crimean War is probably one of the most idiotic wars Britain had ever fought. Years later they would regret attacking and stopping the Russians from destroying the Ottomans who would inflict massive casualties on the Allies, especially at Gallopli. The degenerate Hugh Rose who was the chargé d'affaires at the British Embassy used his power to make sure the Ottomans were protected at the expense of liberating millions of people under Ottoman rule. Every British soldier that died during WWI do so in vain because of the actions of this filthy animal named Rose. Jtpaladin 14:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cause of the war

this article makes it seem the war was fought purely for religious reasons. it barely mentions the concern Britain and France had regarding the possible collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and how Russia would benefit from such a collapse. Cwiki 23:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that much is missing, but I would not argue that Russia would benefit from the Ottoman Empire's collapse. Indeed, the great powers tried to keep this "sick man of Europe" around for decades so they wouldn't have to fight a war over it. The main problem I have is that there's no explanation of the long-term causes. It's like saying that the cause of WWI was Franz Ferdinand's assassination -- there's a lot missing. Although this article does a fantastic job of chronicling the short-term lead-up to the war, the real causes are missing. There's no mention of the change in the balance of power in Russia's favour because of their restoration of Austrian control of Hungary, or the Punctation of Olmutz. And Napoleon III's desire to reenter France into the league of great powers is nowhere in sight. IMHO, the causes need to be massively expanded, and I'll be willing to help in a few weeks. - The Fwanksta (talk) 21:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
In addition, I note that Bridge and Bullen are mentioned in the bibliography, and the stuff in their book is exactly what this article needs. - The Fwanksta (talk) 21:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Casualties

90,000 French 35,000 Turkish 17,500 British 2,050 Sardinian killed, wounded and died of disease total 256,000 killed, wounded and died of disease

What about on the Russian side? Also, is a source available for these numbers? Thanks,

— Emiellaiendiay 07:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I can't find casualties for Russia in the Crimean war on google either, i desperately need that number (or a rough estimation), does anyone know??
A man I know (who is extremely credible) says that 48,300 Russians died.

(Thanks Grace)

I have a book from osprey publishing about that war and it claims that the allied casualties numbers are Ok, but only if we consider them dead and killed, not wounded. For the Russian side the number of dead ranges from 100,000 to 130,000 dead.


In the battle of sebastapol, only 20.000 russians died, but 50000 allies. So it is said that 111.ooo thousand russian died in less than then major battles? The english and french were idiotically prepared for the war, so they sufferd large causalites from kolera(on the fisrt month 10.000 died out of kolera alone). And in the winter, ecpecially when the transports from the ports where horreble. Russia sufferd small casualites from diseases. But its stupid, that 110.000 russians died in less than ten battles, while the allies where on foregin ground, and masses with disease. The Russian dead would most liekly be c.(i dont remember exact number, sorry)60.000. I got this from an article about russian war history. Best regards, Nikitn —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikitn (talk • contribs) 15:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar

Over the next couple days I will try and work through some problematic grammar. I won't change much content except for additions from sources I have handy. Mostly, I'm letting everyone know the grammar will be improved (not that it was entirely horrible to begin with :P) Jonesa3 02:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greece

This article mentions nothing about Greece, about how the Greeks were sympathetic to the Russians and how the English and the French occupied the Greek capital Athens in order to prevent Greece from attacking the Ottomans. Nevertheless many Greek volunteers went to Crimea to help the Russians during the war. Also during the Battle of Sinope, the Greeks living there (who were under Ottoman occupation) helped the Russians using signals with mirrors. So this should all be included in the article.--Waterfall999 03:26, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Istanbul not Constantinople?

Could someone have a look at the references to Istanbul / Constantinople? Both are currently used. Emmjade 06:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I noticed the same. It most certainly ought to be called Istanbul in this article. Auror 17:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Not really. The official name remained Constantinople even under Turkish rule until it became Istanbul in 1926.Buistr (talk) 17:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tsar or Czar

Both forms of the word appear in the text, should it be modified to just one? ArdClose 11:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe Tsar is the current spelling, though why this was ever changed I don't know. Drutt 12:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major Events

To whomever edits this section later: 1) The useful comments from "Ottoman Point of View" section ought to be incorporated (numbers of Ottoman fighters, etc). The rest of it should be tossed. It gives the impression that the site is somehow Eurocentric or biased against Ottomans (or should I say "Turks?") and that the "real" interpretation is being repressed by the man. This section plays off the oldest nationalist trope: the Christ of Nations. 2) The "Major Events of the War" section is inexplicably next-to-last. This should be in the main body of the first section right at the very top. The stuff about the telegraph and the news reporting should be added to the "Social Characteristics" section with Florence Nightengale, etc. I actually was about to add this stuff then noticed it below.

Best of Luck!

Also: Why does this article have a longer section on the baltic than the actual Crimea? It doesn't even mention Alma, Balaclava, or Inkermann in the main section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.97.219.23 (talk) 23:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I was wondering this also. The Battle of Alma in particular is one of the most talked about events during the Crimean War yet there's practically no mention of it. What's even stranger is that there are fairly extensive articles on all of the major battles in the conflict as can be seen here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Battles_of_the_Crimean_War
I would say that some of the content should be copied from these articles on to this one as at present it doesn't make a great deal of sense - many of the major events of the war are missing whilst some of the lesser ones (the Baltic campaign in particular) are included. Blankfrackis (talk) 03:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

There is conflicting dates in this article. The first paragraph states 1853-56, while the information box on the right states 1854-56. Which is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.222.202.181 (talk) 12:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What happened?

Question: Did the Russians withdraw their troops from the Danubian Principalities at any point after the allied ultimatum? The article gives contradictory information. First it says "Late in March of 1854, after Russia ignored an Anglo-French ultimatum to withdraw from the Danubian Principalities, Great Britain and France formally declared war." Then a few lines later... "Though the original grounds for war were lost when Russia withdrew its troops, Great Britain and France continued with hostilities." What actually happened?--SCJE (talk) 01:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Russia refused to retreat, but in the end, when the allies invaded, we were FORCED tor retreat, and break off some sieges too. Best regards, Nikitn

[edit] Russian Flag

What is that Russian flag used on this page? I have never seen it before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.118.75.70 (talk) 16:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It is the Russian Flag pre-1858. Please check out Russian_Flag#Flags_of_Russia_in_chronological_order before changing again. Rac fleming (talk) 15:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] African Empire?

What's the African Empire and why would they be in a war in Nothern Europe? Someone please explain this to me.rokkafellah (talk) 00:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems that an idle person was creating history, an interesting task that contributes to improve this enciclopedia, obviously... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.9.220.114 (talk) 12:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Army Strength

Well, i find it very hard to imagine that the russian army had 2.2 million men in the crimean wars. And it seven spelled wrong 2.200000 RussianS not russian. Could someone give some better sources to that? I couldnt find it on google, but sertanly, there werent 2.200000 Russians present in that war. So if anyone now, could they please tell? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikitn (talk • contribs) 15:21, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Arghhh, someone has completely changed the arcticles casualties and army strenghts. With no sources or anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikitn (talk • contribs) 10:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have changed the figures based on the Soviet Military Encyclopedia, citing the source in references (so please check first before writing bollocks like "With no sources or anything". If you want to challenge the numbers please provide the basis of this challenge Chestnut ah (talk) 12:32, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, well of course. Only strange, since noone has purposed any losses anywhere near as high as these...Could you please give me some internet links to youre so called sources, please? How do you expect to think that half a million Russian casualties occured? And 400.000 Turks? Ive red alot of books about the crimean wars, and most of them state 50-100 thousand Russian casualties, 20.000 British are widly recognized 120.000 French and 30.000 Turks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.202.73 (talk) 13:28, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, if you need sources please go to the Congress Library, the British Library or, e.g. library of the London Schol of Slavonic and Eastern European Studies and check the book indicated by yourself. If you live in some godforsaken plase w/o a decent library I can send you a scan of the relevant pages, even OCR-ed so that you can use e.g. gogle Russian-to-English automatic translator and verify by yourself that the numbers inserted are indeed as stated in this encyclopedia Or -- even better -- you can order CD-version of this quality reference book on militera.lib.ru Chestnut ah (talk) 15:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


Oh well, what really annoys me is that you just came here, and changed everything without mentioning it here on the discussions page. Also, since most of the people here talked from 130.000 Russian casualties to 50.000 dead Russians , how did you come upp with over 500.000 as casualties? And 400.000 Turks? I never ever heard anything close. What seems to be amusing, is that you come here with such ridiculus numbers. And of course i could do as you said to make sure it actually stands anything which you claim there, but that would really take a long time. Also, here is one of mine sources, its a book of Trevor Royle, i red quiet a few years back, ther it is actually stated that there was 60.000 Russian dead. Not 500.000 casaulties.. lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikitn (talk • contribs) 19:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by "you just came here"? Do you consider this article your personal fief? I don't think so. Anyway, please check this reference book: The Osprey Companion to Military History, R Cowley and G Parker (eds.), Osprey Publishing, 1996, ISBN 1 85532 663 9, p.116 ("Crimean War"): "Forced to accept defeat, Russia sought pease in January 1856. It had lost 500,000 troops, mostly to disease, malnutrition and exposure".Chestnut ah (talk) 22:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I consede that some older books cite lower casualties numbers, eg Dupuy and Dupuy The Encyclopedia of Military History, Macdonald and Jane's, 1970, p.829 gives total casualties for Russia 256,000 and for Allies, 252,000, with battle casualties 128,700 and 70,000 correspondingly. However, I think it is better to believe more recent estimates, plus Russian sources for Russian casualties are more reliable. Also, I suspect that you think of the Crimean war only in terms of the siege of Sevastopol, but there were hostilities along the Danube and in the Caucasus (where Turks palyed much more active role than in the Crimea, and suffered all those casualties -- "mostly to disease, malnutrition and exposure" Chestnut ah (talk) 22:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I added these lower estimates of casualties as footnotesChestnut ah (talk) 22:42, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

No, i do not actually "own the article", like you try to do. You actually need to learn youre sources arent automatically the best. but i hardly doubt the Russians lost half a million men when i was led to belive by most books i red that they lost far less. Also, i know where the crimean war was, but the crimean theathre was actually the biggest and most important one. Forexample, at sevastapol, i was led to belive that the Allies dead were effectivly 50.000 men, while the Russian ones where only 20.000. And this was the biggest action in the war. Anyhow, does this "encyliopedia" state how many, turks, british, french, and russians died? Because, it also looks strange as the British participated with so many men, but lost so few? Does none of youre so called sources state british casaulties? And please, could you find out the death numbers... It was taht which basically was before. Also, the french losses seem ridiculisly small. As if the Russians had such huge losses, only out of disease. Tell me the death numbers, and we will perhaps agree, because i had some sources about those. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikitn (talk • contribs) 09:51, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


I have added more detailed info on the war losses, from English-language sources. Please note that "casualties" in general means dead, wounded, sick and prisoners, not just dead Chestnut ah (talk) 22:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


Yes, i am aware of that, but before this article was balanced, with 17.500 dead brits, 100.000 french and 60.000 russians. But now its just another example of WIKI incompetence with numbers... :S —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikitn (talk • contribs) 14:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

British lost dead more than 17.5k, for starters. Also, could you possibly amend your reference to the 60k Russian dead with the page number (I must say I haven't seen such low estimate -- although, as I pointed out, I've seen much higher number for Russia's dead) Chestnut ah (talk) 14:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, mostly people would be happy with 60k dead. Some even suggested 48,000, but mostly 100k was suggested. Ive seen actually lower nubmers then 60k, and 17.500 british isnt much,,, compared taht tehy had 225.000 men there. Also, i wonder about the french? i heard thye had a very high loss, at sevastapol, especially. The russian lost most on sevastapol too, with some 20,000 dead, and allies 50,000 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikitn (talk • contribs) 18:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

According to J Sweetman, The Crimean War, Osprey ES-02 (p 89), there was not 225k British in the Crimea but 4,273 officers and 107,040 other ranks. 20% lost dead is quite large proportion, although French lost even more -- 100k+ out of 300k+ that were there (not all of them simultaneously of course) Chestnut ah (talk) 21:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, i was led to belive the French had 445k, the british 225k. But ok,,, Anyhow, nice, the article seems to be ata measure of balance now.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikitn (talk • contribs) 13:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)