Talk:Crimean Gothic

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vocabulary in Busbecq's letter:

[305]
19       Broe. Panis.
20       Plut. Sanguis.
21       Stul. Sedes.
22       Hus. Domus.
23       Wingart. Vitis.
24       Reghen. Pluvia.
25       Bruder. Frater.
26       Schvveſter. Soror.
27       Alt. Senex.
28       Wintch. Ventus.
29       Siluir. Argentum.
30       Goltz. Aurum.

[306]

1       Kor. Triticum.
2       Salt. Sal.
3       Fiſct. Piſcis.
4       Hoef. Caput.
5       Thurn. Porta.
6       Stein. Stella.
7       Sune. Sol.
8       Mine. Luna.
9       Tag. Dies.
10       Oeghene. Oculi.
11       Bars. Barba.
12       Handa. Manus.
13       Boga. Arcus.
14       Miera. Formica.
15       Rinck. ſiue.
16       Ringo. Annulus.
17       Brunna. Fons.
18       Waghen. Currus.
19       Apel. Pomum.
20       Schietê. Mittere ſagittâ.
21       Schlipen. Dormire.
22       Kommen. Venire.
23       Singhen. Canere.
24       Lachen. Ridere.
25       Eriten. Flere.
26       Geen. Ire.
27       Breen. Aſſare.
28       Schvvalth. Mors.
29    Knauen tag erat illi Bonus dies: Knauen
30    bonum dicebat, et pleraque alia cum no/ſtra 



[307]
1       Kor. Triticum.
2       Salt. Sal.
3       Fiſct. Piſcis.
4       Hoef. Caput.
5       Thurn. Porta.
6       Stein. Stella.
7       Sune. Sol.
8       Mine. Luna.
9       Tag. Dies.
10       Oeghene. Oculi.
11       Bars. Barba.
12       Handa. Manus.
13       Boga. Arcus.
14       Miera. Formica.
15       Rinck. ſiue.
16       Ringo. Annulus.
17       Brunna. Fons.
18       Waghen. Currus.
19       Apel. Pomum.
20       Schietê. Mittere ſagittâ.
21       Schlipen. Dormire.
22       Kommen. Venire.
23       Singhen. Canere.
24       Lachen. Ridere.
25       Eriten. Flere.
26       Geen. Ire.
27       Breen. Aſſare.
28       Schvvalth. Mors.
29    Knauen tag erat illi Bonus dies: Knauen
30    bonum dicebat, et pleraque alia cum no/ſtra 

[308] 
1    Iuſſus ita numerabat. Ita, tua, tria,
2    fyder, fyuf, ſeis, ſeuene, prorſus, ut nos
3    Flandri. Nam vos Brabanti, qui vos Ger/manice
4    loqui factis, hic magnifice vos ef/ferre,
5    et nos ſoletis habere deriſui, ac ſi
6    iſtam vocem pronunciemus rancidius, quam
7    vos Seuenffertis. Proſequebatur deinde,
8    Athenyne, thiine, thiinita, thunetua, thu/netria,
9    etc. Viginti dicebat ſtega, triginta
10    treithyen, quadraginta furdeithien, centum
11    ſada, hazer mille. Quin etiam cantilenam
12    eius linguæ recitabat, cuius initium erat
13    hujuſmodi:
14       Wara Wara ingdolou:
15       Scu te gira Galizu.
16       Hœmiſclep dorbiza ea.

Contents

[edit] sada, hazer?

does that make it a Satem language? ;) dab (ᛏ) 17:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

more interestingly, is there a translation to the song fragment?

Wara Wara ingdolou:
Scu te gira Galizu.
Hoemisclep dorbiza ea.

dab (ᛏ) 17:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

No. Rursus 14:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Appears CG borrowed several numerals. Busbecq didn't give a translation for the song lyrics, frustating the tokhes off modern scholars left with bare nothing else to analyze the syntax of the language. 惑乱 分からん 13:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Austrian-Gothic connection

I have heard the storry from a hungarian count that some of the gothic may have come to middle europe with them and where settelt together with jews ( chasars ?) on the eastern border of hungary, today the middle part of Lower Austria and Styria. It would explain why the bavarian colonialisation in this area was going so smoothly without wars. The Austrian would than be a bavarian gothic mixture and the background of jiddisch ,witch i as Austrian can understand very easely, would rather be gothic and not german, as the Chasar inhabited the former gothic areas. It would explain too, why their is no genetical evidenz of the chasars in the jewish genes.

Thinking of this a prooved my own Austrian dialect to the gothic words and i must say that 60 % is very close some words only exist in Austrian. So ist the Austrian word for speaking angrily "meutern" witch is close to the gothic word of speaking. I am not a linguist, but I dont know any german dialect witch uses this word like this. The concept of the articels is close to the Austrian dialect witch use "te" (e like ending) for women and plural and "tea" (a like bar )for man. All other wordforms can at least exist in forms of the Austrian dialect.

J.

Never heard it before, it sounds dubious, and without any linguistic background to back it up, it'd anyway classify as original research. 惑乱 分からん 01:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] East Goths: The lost Swedes of Russia and the Ukraine

The East Gothic/Crimean Gothic language may been extinct for two centuries, until recent times has ethnic anthropology accepted the idea of East Goths survived well into the 20th century. The question of how the Estgotes came to Eastern Europe and thrived with their language, a relic of the once-existent East Gothic tribes of the 1000's AD, would remain unknown and theorized until the answer is discovered.

There was speculation of the "lost Swedes" of western Ukraine (as well in Estonia, Belarus, Russia and the Crimea under Greek rule) are direct descendants of the Vikings or Scandinavians whom managed to retain a separate ethnocultural identity, but in small villages and isolated from the Slavic linguistic majority until the late 1800's. In Gotland, there are Lutheran church bells that actually came from the Ukraine in 1913 or 1914 serves as a reminder of a people whom returned to their ancestral homeland.

I've read the National Geographic August 1973 article Gotland, Sweden's treasure island had a brief mention of a few thousand Gotlander Swedes arrived to their "homeland" from the former USSR in the 1920's. In the 1921 Soviet census, about 900 Swedish-Russians (or Ukrainians) lived in one village, Gammalsvenskbi (Gamelsvinsk) became abandoned in World Wars I and II, when the Soviets expelled the "German" inhabitants who happened to be Swedish-speaking of East Gothic descent.

Gammalsvenskbi was settled in 1780 by a small wave of "Estegote" settlers from Estonia and northwest Russia. Due to ethnic conflict in the 19th and early 20th century, the village's residents disliked introducing themselves to their Russian and Ukrainian neighbors, whom would call them "bloody Germans". But when they say "I'm an Estgote Swede", they get insults on how the great Russians defeated King Charles VIII in the battle of Poltava and threatened the "barbarian Goths" to leave the country.

If any remnants of Estgotes, Swedish-Russians and Crimea Goths are around in the 21st century may get never known, but their language is well documented and preserved in writing for research in Crimean Gothic myths, stories and notes on their daily lives. The Soviet Union's policy of history denial and misinformation of ethnic and national minorities, and the "Russification" of Tsarist Russia followed by an equally intolerant "Sovietization" forced an doctrine of assimilation that killed many languages and ethnic identities across the large country, the Crimean Goths were the policy's victims. + 63.3.14.1 18:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

This seems like a mixup of goths and gutar. 惑乱 分からん 13:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. The Swedes in Ukraine, many of whom emigrated to Gotland, have no connection to the Crimean Goths. Another language, another people and another history. While the text by the user is of interest regarding the Gammelsvenskby, it has no relevance whatsoever to this article. JdeJ 00:11, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Or possibly a mixup of goths and geats. The Charles that the Russians knocked the sh*t out of in the battle of Poltava, was more probably Charles XII, an infamous Swedish king that was shot to death at the battle at Fredriksten ... to the relief of many peoples, including the Swedes themselves. Said: Rursus ☻ 19:45, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
In which case, JdeJ's point remain valid. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 11:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Writing system?

Should we really mention an alphabet? 1st, it seems uncertain that Goths would write in runes at that time, 2nd, there's no attested (native) Crimean Gothic writing, anyway, so the information seems to be pure speculation. By checking out relevant Wikipedia articles, it seems Arabic writing was common in the area at the time, so it doesn't seem too improbable guessing that Crimean Gothic would occasionally be written in that script. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 07:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

People tended (even into the 20th century) to use alphabets according to their religious affiliation. Thus Turkish-speaking Christians used the Greek (if Greek Orthodox) or Armenian (if Armenian Orthodox) alphabets even when writing Turkish. Similarly, Jews used the Hebrew alphabet even when writing German, Spanish, Arabic (ultimately incorporating Hebrew grammar and vocabulary and leading to Yiddish, Ladino, and Judeo-Arabic, among others). It is very unlikely that Christian Crimean Goths wrote in the Arabic alphabet. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I think Busbecq related to the Crimean Goths as illiterate. Sadly. Said: Rursus ☻ 19:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Aah. That's another possibility. Should be easy to find a citation for, if somebody knows Latin. Anyway, my main point was that an explicitly mentiond alphabet wasn't necessary, particularly if the only source claims the people to be illiterate. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 11:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)