Template talk:Creationism2

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This template was considered for deletion on 2008 June 6. The result of the discussion was keep.

1 Section header inserted here
2 redundancy
3 Length
4 Pseudoscience
5 Sorry for trouble
6 Part of a series
7 Flying Spaghetti Monsterism
8 Teleological argument
9 Changes
10 Evolution and the Roman Catholic Church
11 Section titles

[edit] Section header inserted here

There is an archived discussion of this template at Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/Not_deleted/May_2005#Template:Creationism2. There was no consensus for deletion. Joe D (t) 10:09, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

So there should be no tag at all indicating it is proposed for deletion? - Tεx τ urε 16:45, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

So there should be a tag for deletion on a template that was once but is no longer on TFD? - Hm. SV|t 20:11, 18 May 2005 (UTC) PS - resored vertical version redirected by Joshuaschroeder. SV

Ok. I'm only asking the question because the tag still existed but Joe D's comment said the vote was over. Glad to see it's resolved. - Tεx τ urε 20:14, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

I removed the edit button at the bottom to tighten the template.--ghost 30 June 2005 14:47 (UTC)

[edit] redundancy

heya -- good edits generally ... but the contents of the "pseudoscience" subsection are redundant -- they're on the template twice. i'm just deleting the redundancy ... Ungtss 20:10, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

also ... regarding flat earth ... on what basis are we describing it as a form of creationism? it seems to me it's a "related concept." to believe the earth is flat is not a form of creationism like the others -- the others relate specifically to how and when the earth was created, while flat-earthism speaks only to the shape of the earth. so if "flat earthism" is a form of creationism, then "roundearthism" is too ... and THAT'S certainly not a form of creationism. beyond that, the article title itself is "flat earth society," not "flat earth creationism," and the word "creationism" does not appear in the text. what do you think? Ungtss 20:21, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree...and am deleting it.

Since it is a related concept, we've included it under "related concepts".

Regarding the image of Adam and Eve, I believe they should not have naval, as they were "created" and not born from womb. The image should be cleaned.

[edit] Length

You don't need to include every word that can be associated with creationism, never mind the suptopics for these. The nav bar is not supposed to be longer than the articles. Bensaccount 8 July 2005 00:49 (UTC)

Bensaccount explained his edits Ungtss; they weren't "destructive", its called editing... and in this case culling. - Roy Boy ⁸⁰⁰ 8 July 2005 18:25 (UTC)

that's not an explanation, it's a bald and erroneous assertion by a repeatedly proven vandal [1] that no one has the courage to rfc. the template allows the reader to quickly, easily and conveniently access creationism articles. it is not longer than the article, as bensaccount claimed. on the contrary, it is shorter than every single article there is. deleting the bulk of the links serves absolutely no purpose except allowing bensaccount to giggle to himself. it plainly and simply a destructive edit. culling? no. poaching. Ungtss 8 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)

Yes, culling; because the template is long Ungtss. One of the longest I've seen; and there is no expectation or need for it be comprehensive on the subject. - Roy Boy ⁸⁰⁰ 9 July 2005 04:49 (UTC)

My explanation, which Ungtss must have missed, is that subtopics of distantly related associations don't belong in a nav bar. Ungtss has posted the above link about a dozen times so far, while omitting the following: [2]. This is an attempt to mislead, no doubt motivated by spite. Ungtss, as usual, offers nothing of value. Bensaccount 8 July 2005 23:26 (UTC)

The explanation comes to late, firstly. This rather large edit should have been discussed on the Talk page. Its what Talk pages are for. Secondly, I agree with Uggtss' assesment. The template allows the reader to quickly, easily and conveniently access articles refering to creationism. There is no reason to change it. -- Ec5618 July 9, 2005 01:33 (UTC)

Yes there is. - Roy Boy ⁸⁰⁰ 9 July 2005 04:49 (UTC)

the stated reasons are "shortness" and "prevent distantly related topics." both of these fall far short of the arguments for "access," "clarity," and "convenience." the claim that it is longer than all other templates is false. have a look at Islam. your ultimate argument is that "there is no need for it to be comprehensive." What? you'd prefer mediocrity? Isn't "comprehensive" better than "half-ass?" Ungtss 02:44, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I didn't claim its longer than all other templates. And I prefer brevity over comprehensive; I would consider it half-ass if those sub-articles aren't linked from the main articles listed. - Roy Boy ⁸⁰⁰ 04:10, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

so which would you like removed, insofar as they aren't linked to the topic? Perhaps we should start with Flat Earth Society and geocentrism, which have absolutely nothing to do with creationism, and leave things like Creation biology and flood geology, which are, for all intents and purposes, core to contemporary creationism, but which bensaccount removed. what criterion would you like to apply here for determining which links are in and which are out, as opposed to sheer culling? Ungtss 20:39, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

What you've said so far sounds like a good start; Baraminology, Vapor canopy, Created kinds are sub-articles that aren't necessary. While I understand the Vapor canopy is a key creation concept; if its one of the key concepts in Flood geology; then IMO its already been pointed to and the reader won't have trouble finding it. (but upon looking at the articles, the vapor canopy is not a key creation concept, and hence should not be cited in the template) And I'd clarify that although I felt a culling was necessary; Bensaccount did go overboard, but from now on if I need a template assassin I know who to call. - Roy Boy ⁸⁰⁰ 02:01, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

yes, i think vapor canopy and baraminology could go too. here's what i propose we remove:

Gap Creationism (part of old earth creationism, already on template)
Day-Age Creationism (same as above)
Progressive creationism (same as above)
Irreducible complexity (part of intelligent design)
Specified complexity (same)
Intelligent design movement (same)
intelligent designer (same)
Scientific creationism (should be given its proper name, creation science)
Created kinds (part of creation biology)
Baraminology (same)
Vapor canopy (part of flood geology)
Teach the Controversy (part of controversy)
The Wedge Strategy (part of controvery)
Santorum Amendment (part of controversy)
Omphalos hypothesis (part of history)
Modern geocentrism (not creationism)
Flat Earth society (not creationism)

what do you think? Ungtss 04:07, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Creationism2"

I concur; although I'd like to see Teach the controversy stay given its recent prominence; and I suspect it will be a strategy that will be front and center for some time to come. - Roy Boy ⁸⁰⁰ 04:18, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

People dont need to see every page that is remotely related to creationism on the side of their article. It simply does not help anyone, and it clutters the page. Another problem is the image. Images do not belong on nav bars. Another problem is the headings. It is POV to say that CS is the basis for creationism, since creationism came first. What makes you think that anyone would find this list of word associations to be convenient? Bensaccount 03:50, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

you're telling me that you don't think it's any use to have a template linking to creation biology and flood geology. cute. Ungtss 20:40, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pseudoscience

I removed it from the template because I'm confident this is not the place for statements; and I'm assuming pseudoscience will remain in the article(s) listed. - Roy Boy ⁸⁰⁰ 01:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry for trouble

It appears I've deleted the "Creationism2" template. This was not my purpose but it happened due to my clumsy computer skills. What I tried was to remove the box from "Flat Eath Society" article. A message I sent to the Flat Earth discussion is below (with some typos corrected).

Don't worry about it. It was easily fixed. --Ian Pitchford 12:02, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

---

Sorry if I caused unwanted trouble with the "Creationism2" template. My purpose was to remove the box from the Flat Earth article -- not to delete the template itself. Sorry if the latter happened.

Now, because it seems I don't have the computer skills myself, I strongly suggest someone to remove the box if I didn't succeed in the proper way.

The reason for this is quite clear. Although Flat Earthers mostly are creationists, the opposite is not the case. As mentioned in the article itself, the view of flat Earth is somewhat a ridicule. I'm not willing to speculate why the box had been placed on such a notable and important place, but nevertheless it gives the impression that creationism and even intelligent design are among jokes comparable to flat Earth.

I'm well aware that many naturalists and evolutionists personally think that way, but on my opinion no neutral view supports this. Firstly, the number of supporters of creationism anf flad Earth differ with a factor of four powers of ten, or so. Secondly, and more importantly, the supposed flat Earth is something that is contrary to everyday observations that almost anyone can make.

For prehistoric events, most often there are more or less some indirect clues, often to different directions, but the direct observation is beyond human perspective. Although some models combine better with the indirect evidence, no-one has to play fool and think contrary of what is seen today.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Flat_Earth_Society"

[edit] Part of a series

This template is used by articles outside of the ones mentioned in the template. I'm note sure what common procedure is, but shouldn't the template contain links to all articles? Or shouldn't there be a project page in which all relevant pages are linked? Should we not put a link to [3] in the template to help people find all creationism related articles? I understand the template needn't be comprehensive, but shouldn't something tie the creationism articles together?

Should we perhaps link to [[Category:creationism]]? -- Ec5618 18:15, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Flying Spaghetti Monsterism

...was removed from the template. Why? — ciphergoth 18:08, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

As a parody of ID it is too narrow to warrant inclusion on a general creationism template.

[edit] Teleological argument

While certainly many creationists revel in this idea, it is not part-and-parcel to creationism as a subject. In general, creationism derives from creation (theology) not from any sort of philosophical concern over proofs of the existence of god. Teleological argument may be appropriate for the Intelligent Design template, but creationism as a bigger tent doesn't necessarily ground itself in William Paley or his watchmaker. --ScienceApologist 15:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

I've made some appearance changes to match it to Template:Intelligent Design and Template:Evolution3, which it shared some pages with. Notably, I upped the width so it plays nicely with being combined into one box. Adam Cuerden ^talk 05:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I also rearranged the links a bit so it is more practically ordered. I was wondering if there was a way to integrate umbrella term distinction into the template. Intelligent design includes all forms of creationism excluding theistic evolution; Old-earth creationism includes gap creationism, day-age creationism, and progressive creationism. This distinction should be noted in the template somehow. Pbarnes 16:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Evolution and the Roman Catholic Church

There's an article about the reactions of the Roman Catholic Church to evolution and of course creationism, and a small discussion as to which template we could include it in here. Is it all right to put the article in this template and vice versa? -- StevenDH (talk) 14:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Section titles

The section titles on this template do not seem logical to me. The "types of creationism" section is followed by the "other religious views". The latter seems to suggest that the former deals entirely with Christian creationism. If this is true, why isn't the "types of creationism" section called "Christian views"? If this is not true, an article called Christian creationism or Christian views on evolution should be listed along with the other religions represented in "other religous views", which should then be renamed simply "religous views". Neelix (talk) 12:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC)