Talk:Creole peoples
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[edit] Spanish Filipino numbers
I'm from Philippines and whoever get this statistics has no actual proof? I work in Real Academia in Manila and we have database of Spanish Filipinos. 17,000 and 0.1% is just very inaccurate.
[edit] Brazilian mestiços or Brazilian crioulos?
- In Brazil, a very different process occured, independence was granted without war (only an internal problem in the northern regions that did not accepted independence, that was fastly erased), and the relation between non-mixed Portuguese (now Brazilians) and mixed natives and Portuguese kept peacefull. Unlike in Spanish America, a Brazilian monarchy directly connected with the Portuguese was established. Portuguese borned in Portugal were named Galegos, this name was especially given to northern Portuguese but it was also used to the southern ones.
- People of mixed Portuguese and Native ancestry that the Portuguese had contact with since the 15th century but who didn't speak a Portuguese creole are known as mulatos, mestiços, caboclos and pardos.
- Angolan mulato or mestiço
- Mozambican mulato or mestiço
- Brazilian mulato, mestiço, caboclo or pardo
Seems to me that these two excerpts don't have anything to do with the article. Would anyone tell me why they should stay?--Paraiba 05:03, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- What's wrong with them? Is anything incorrect? It is in the same level has in Spanish America. In fact, the entire article focus few on creole people. -Pedro 09:28, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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- Sorry, I was a bit rash. No, there's nothing incorrect. It's just that, as far as I know, the word "crioulo" has always been a derogative term for black people in Brazil. I've never seen any Brazilian historian refer to these people as "crioulos". I think there should be a little clarification on this.--Paraiba 03:28, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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- I agree with Paraiba's first comment, that text is not appropriate. The topic of this article is "meaning of 'Creole' and its equivalents in various languages when applied to people". Therefore, for Brazil, the subject should be the people which are called crioulo. I rewrote that section accordingly. Jorge Stolfi 06:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Mixed Languages
What are the differences between mixed languages, creoles and pidgins? They are three different families at Ethnologue.
[edit] reunion and mauritian creoles
hey, in reunion creoles is a more inclusive term it still has the sense of all those born on the island are creoles. but ethnically its all the mixed and cafres(blacks).
In Mauritius, creoles are an ethnic group, but we still differentiate
with mulatres, ti creoles(blacks), blanc fess noires( whiter than mulattos but not considered white). thanks any questions (doms_bakk@hotmail.com) say, would anyone want to help writing a larger article on this? I must add that creoles are majority christians and the church forms an important part of mauritian creole lives.a key part of this is the annual pilgrimage to Pere Laval's(missionary who initiated the conversion of the slaves) grave... not forgetting the small Rastafari community who i think, like in Jamaica, want to be closer to Africa. They are also very involved in the annual Le Morne(a mountain where slaves jumped to their death from whites trying to chase them) trip.Domsta333 12:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] New Section on Creole Development
I've added a new section on creole development, since a discussion on the pidgin-creole-language process seemed to be non-existent in the article. If anyone can add on to this section or help cite some sources for it, that would be great. Most of this information in the section has been obtained from books like "The Power of Babel," but I don't know what the correct format is on Wikipedia for citing literary sources. Please help!--Ikiroid 17:04, 8 November 2005
I'm moving the development section to "creole language", since it's more about language than ethnicities--Ikiroid 15:16, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Portuguese Creole replaced by Portuguese Africa Creole
I removed most of the "Portuguese Creole" section (below) since the article is about "meanings of the word 'Creole' and cognates in various languages when applied to peoples" and not about "creole languages' or "mixed European-Native peoples" or "people who spoke a creole language". For Portuguese, that fits only the Kriolu of cape Verde, the Kriol(?) of Guinea-Bissau and the Kriol(?) of ST&P.
The entries for Angola, Mozambique and Brazil should go to mestizo if they are not already there. Jorge Stolfi 05:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Article is incomplete
The article as it stands seems very incomplete. There are many languages with autonyms "Creole" or cognates. Are the respective speakers also called by that name? For example, there are the Miskito Creole, Cólon Creole, Belizean Kriol language, Upper Guinea Kriol language, Krio language, Liberian Kreyol language, Seychelles Kreyol language, etc. Jorge Stolfi 08:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Alaskan Creole
Are the mixed people called Creole or something of the sort? If not, the section should be removed. (It is incomplete anyway.) Jorge Stolfi 08:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Rename this page
To avoid confusion with "creole language", this article should be renamed "Creole peoples". Jorge Stolfi 08:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Is this really a disambiguation?
I'm confused. First I should disambiguate: my comments are about the page called Creole, not Creole Peoples. Why does the discussion of Creole redirect to Creole Peoples?
The article called Creole is a disambiguation... But it also has a large chunk of content that shouldn't be in a disambiguation page, I would think. The content of those paragraphs is fairly haphazardly organized, but it seems like parts should be in Creole Peoples, and parts in Creole Languages. Perhaps there should be Patois page --- and I see there is, so any content here should be there instead, with perhaps a see also from the Creole Language page.
--sbump 03:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
- I agree... I'm no expert on the subject but perhaps someone could suggest a merge; it seems like parts of this need to be merged into several different articles. Srose (talk) 16:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I'll try to fix it up next week --150.203.177.193 06:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] POV
This article is so POV it hurts. ive changed it a bit anyway.
[edit] Remove everything below the disambiguation
The section entitled Creole vs. Patois lacks research, sourices and neutrality. It seems as if it was written by people who assume their limited knowledge was all encompassing. Furthermore it has little to do with the article. It should be removed and perhaps there should be an individual article about Creole versus Patois and nother article defining what Creole means in different societies.
[edit] Pidgins, patois, creoles, lingua francas - defined
OK, what we were taught as students of language and linguistics 20 years ago for the JMB 'A'-Level English Language syllabus in the UK can be summarised as follows:
[edit] Linguae Franca
A Lingua Franca is a language adopted for trading purposes--buying food, clothes, bartering &c. They generally form because there is room for lexicalisation by gestural reference and have a simplified grammar. Franks and franking refer to the stamps on official currency when not referring to the currencies themselves.
There are no constraints on from which or how many languages the lexis of a lingua franca is drawn. It is simply any convention which was developed primarily for trade.
[edit] Pidgins
A pidgin is a simplified version of a given language, E.g. "pidgin English". The vocabulary of a pidgin, however, should be pretty much made up of words found within that language although much grammatical subtlety is lost. Inflections can simply reflect the word or verb, rather than be possessed of any morphological function.
Although it is now treated as a language in its own right now, Urdu was originally a simplified grammar facilitating communication between colonising Brits in India and their servants--although then as now there were English speakers in India and some of the English learnt Hindi. The lexis was originally Hindi but, allegedly quite simple, grammar was then extended into use in other areas of the subcontinent, hence Panjabi Urdu &c.
[edit] Creoles
Creoles, or Krios, were originally a derogatory term as the etymology is from "Cry". Again with roots in Linguae Franca and/or pidgin forms, not only did the cry refer to the cries of the market traders but also to the perception of Creoles as "children's language".
Other than a mnemonic for the fact that when a new generation grows up speaking a pidgin as its first language it is classified as a Creole, there can be pejorative connotations, although most people don't think about these.
The accounts I've read so far miss out on the influence of Chinese and Polynesian languages in Creolisation, and also although nodding to the creative and flexible traits Creole languages have, fail to explicitly mention the effect of cognitive development through childhood and adolescence in terms of contributing to this facet of the language forms as used by adults.
As people grow up they find ways to reflect perceived reality in all its subtlety via language; Creoles are language forms which have this depth and evocative capacity by growing and developing with their speakers from birth and becoming accurate paradigmatic prostheses to their speakers' experiences and aspirations, feelings and philosophies.
[edit] Patois
Some Carribbean ex-pats in the UK, particularly those of Jamaican origin, consider they speak Patois. Properly speaking, Patois is strictly a term linked to language forms with a strong French connection.
There are Patois in the British Isles--namely those of Jersey and Guernsey, in the Channel Islands, although the counting system is markedly Celtic in Origin. Similarly there is a Breton Patois in Normandy and the Gaelic spoken in Cornwall (compare Gael-Gaul, Gaelic-Gallic, Corn-Kern-Guern and quite where Runcorn fits into the equation...but I digress). As is noted in the relevant articles there are patois all over France and in the traditionally French parts of North America, most famously New Orleans.
Similarly, with its Latin and French terms, Welsh is a neat example of a linguistic convention that has become a language but is essentially a relexicalised version of an existing grammar--not that Windows' approach to diacritic typography as distinct from that Apple allowed is enhancing its accessibility to the wider British public. You try putting a circumflex over a "w" with MS-ware...again, hardly the point except as an example of hegemonious fordism hampering harmonious co-existence)
Back to the point: Caribbean Patois are Creoles, but specific to a given Island--Anyone not originally from the Atlantic Island group who has moved in Caribbean circles will be able to distinguish a Jamaican from a Barbadian or Trinidadian or Grenadian accent, and this is when people are simply speaking standard English with the accent of their home island.
Some Islands have Creoles, others have Patois.
As such a patois is perhaps better likened to a dialect given the widespread usage of the term in france, rather than a distinct language such as one finds in Spain with Catalan, Castilian, Catalonia and the notably unqique Basque, &c.
As such it's probably better to consider patois forms as subisdiary to whichever language they fall under, whether its a Creole with strong French roots or simply a regional dialect of French.
[edit] summary
I am anticipating spending some focused time in an academic library within the next month or so so I shall get my linguistician's head on and drum up some verifiable bibliographic sources for what I'm saying.
Once the overlaps are harmonised, particularly where linguistic definitions of patois and creole are at odds with the popular perception of what is meant by the word.
E.g. Jamaicans speak Jamaican patois, which is a Creole, but is referred to as patois, as much as Guernsais patois is simply referred to as patois in the Islands, despite Jamaican patois actually being basically a Creolised English making innovative use of archiac durative copulae forms such as are found in Chaucer, Shakespeare and The King James Bible and Apocrypha. Yet Haitian, I gather, is rather more overtly French yet is referred to as Creole rather than patois, whether one is in Haiti or New Orleans.
As the Caribbean archipelago is a massive island chain I can only illustrate with examples from those island cultures it's been my honour to engage in enough conversation with to infer some generalisations and an authoritative perspective will be capitulated to without question.
However, the technical distinctions as understood by linguisticians, between pidgins, lingua francas, creoles and patois suggest that the articles need to be sensibly cross-referenced and will be subject to people jumping in editing things in and out without cross-checking to a much greater extent than other wiki entries will be.
HTHGraphitus
Actually Graphitus, patois is fairly derogatory term for French languages and dialects, Occitan was called patois even though it has a literary history dating back to the troubadours. French used the term patois to mock, the fact is that people saw speaking the dialects and other languages as being un-French.. [1]
They still do refer to them as patois but it's less pronounced these days..Domsta333 09:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Olive-skinned
That statement is ridiculous. Are all white Creoles olive-skinned? Where do they obtain their olive tone? Some white Creoles are just French, therefore Alpine not Mediterranean. If they were mostly French mixed with German as in the case of my great-grandmother, they would likely have fair skin and possibly blonde hair and blue eyes.And if they were mixed with Spanish that is not indicative of olive skin either, seeing as there are many fair Spaniards. So the term "olive-skinned" needs to be deleted as it's not scientific.jeanne (talk) 12:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
