Talk:Creed

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-What about creed as a general set of beliefs that influence the goals in one's life?

Not the right definition. I think we are talking about litergical statements of belief with some historical significance, and church approval. These were usually issued as a response to heresy and designed to distinguish between orthodox and heretics. Mike Young 14:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

-Under Islamic creeds I suggest presenting the Fiqh al-Akbar I. It is quite short and will give a non-Muslim some idea of the contents of larger creeds. If I had an English translation I would copy it in myself. If I don't find a translation soon I will make one myself. Kleinecke

Strongly agree. Please do this. I think there is room for Fiqh al-Akbar II as well. The Islamaic section is a section about what Muslims believe, which may be appropriate somewhere else in Wikipedia, but not here. It does not contain a statement that is recited as part of litergy! Mike Young 14:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


-::I think that material on this should be included in this article. Please, add it. drboisclair 02:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


-what about defining creed as a short statement of belief summarizing a teaching and introducing inquirerers to the faith or religion being described? (paris blues)

No, under this definition anyone could write a creed. I think we are talking about statements with some historical significance. Mike Young 14:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Islamic Creed Link

I removed what really seemed to be a non-NPOV article link unrelated to any Islamic creed; article instead argues that Islam is "the true religion of God." Perhaps we could replace with article on the shahada?--Robotam 19:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

      • Can someone add the english phonetics to one of the primary islamic creeds such as "There is No God but God, and Mohammed is his prophet". The phonetic pronunctiation was done for the Shmah and it would be nice to have a counterpart for the other faiths.

Apart from the Shahada, the other beliefs are not recited in the same way as Christian beliefs are. This not an article about the beliefs of Isalm or Chrisitanity, but about there formulaic recitations. I have therefore trimmed the Islam article to take this into account.Mike Young (talk) 14:13, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Disambig

I changed the disambig to Creed (band) because thats what people are probably searching for. Awesimo 01:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish Creed???

This entry's assertion that "[t]he Jewish faith recognizes a single creed" strikes me as controversial at best, and inaccurate at worst.

As I understand it, Judaism is not a creedal religion: "By its nature," writes Rabbi Milton Steinberg, "Judaism is averse to formal creeds which of necessity limit and restrain thought." Milton Steinberg, Basic Judaism, 35 (Harcourt, Inc., 1947). "Judaism has never arrived at a creed because, highly as it rates the life of reason, it rates the good life even higher." Id.

Moreover, by asserting that Judaism's creed necessarily involves a "strict unitarian monotheism, the belief in one God," the entry excludes and denigrates one of American Judaism's five movements -- the Humanistic Judaism of Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherwin_T._Wine

I think the entry should be revised to acknowledge that whether Judaism is a creedal faith is controversial, and probably to reflect the fact that not all of Judaism acknowledges God. Eric Alan Isaacson 05:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I find Reform Judaism's 1976 Centenary Platform states that "Judaism emphasizes action rather than creed as the primary expression of a religious life." http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/100.htm Eric Alan Isaacson 01:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I have edited the article to reflect what I believe is the mainstream view, expressed by Rabbie Milton Steinberg and others, that Judaism is not a creedal faith. Eric Alan Isaacson (talk) 17:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Creedless Christians

This entry speaks of "Christian creeds," leaving the impression that Christian faith is inherently creedal. That is not necessarily so. Creeds may be central for some Christian denominations, but they are rejected by others. America's Unitarian Christians have traditionally rejected creeds, as have our Baptists. Bishop John Shelby Spong, an Episcopalian, regards creeds as devices that create unnecessary division and strife.

This article strikes me as (1) inappropriately biased in favor of creeds, (2) inaccurate or biased in its implicit assumption that Christian faith is creedal, and (3) inaccurate in its assertion that Jewish faith is creedal. Eric Alan Isaacson 05:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Good point. The Baptists' soul competence needs to be in here. Jonathan Tweet 05:23, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I have edited the article to better note the opposition to creeds of many Christian movements, including Unitarians, Quakers, and Restorationists. Eric Alan Isaacson (talk) 17:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC) I've also added quotations from John Shelby Spong, Episcopal Bishop of Newark, questioning the place of creeds in Christian faith. Eric Alan Isaacson (talk) 23:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Citations to varied points of view are fine, but we also have to be careful not to be misleading on either side of an issue (not saying that was your intent). Spong stepped down from his position as Episcopal Bishop of Newark, and, no longer believes in the deity of Jesus Christ. Simply quoting him without context is not helpful to the discourse.-RoBoTamice 15:24, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The Episcopal Church is a "mainline" denomination, and Bishop Spong unquestionably a leader in that denomination, but I really don't object to your edit. Eric Alan Isaacson (talk) 07:18, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

<on opposition to creeds>

While, there is no detail to the opposition of creeds -- speaking for the Quakers of the time -- I can hopefully clear up some 'misunderstandings'. First, people should realize that the creed is recited before taking the Eucharist, those who cannot speak the creed are barred from taking in God's grace. The Quakers believe that man has no right to bar God's grace from anyone, just as they do not have the ability to give it. Some have observed that George Fox made a statement that is very much like a creed in form. Robert Barclay wrote a "Catechism and confession of faith" to be taught to the youth. These were not creeds, not because there was no enforced definition of faith (even George Fox was censored at one point by the Quakers), but because there was no ban placed on approaching God... or on God dispensing grace.

I believe, you would find a similar point of view in many Baptists, or the Mennonites. In fact, Philip Schaff's "Creeds of Christiandom" includes several enforced, public statements of faith which were NOT considered creeds, including statements from Baptists, quakers, and other non-creedal groups.

[edit] Trinitarian Creeds

The entry's opening sentence stated: "Christianity, affirming that God has become incarnate in the human being Jesus, has formulated a number of statements of faith that seek to assert this doctrine."

This struck me as a partisan Trinitarian statement, that fails to take account of the Unitarian Christianity espoused by the Rev. Dr. Joseph Priestley, Rev. William Ellery Channing, and many others.

I accordingly revised the opening sentence it to state: "Trinitarian Christians, affirming that God has become incarnate in the human being Jesus, have formulated a number of statements of faith that seek to assert this doctrine."

Eric Alan Isaacson 16:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] high-importance, start-class

This is a high-importance, start-class article, so I'm willing to give it some work. Jonathan Tweet 05:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

If you like where I'm goiing, say something. If I'm on the wrong track, I don't want to invest more work in it. Jonathan Tweet 17:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
What you're doing seems to make sense. I think an objective entry on creeds would note that Jesus and the apostles apparently did without them, that creeds become significant following the union of church and state under Constantine, and that with their adoption begins the era of Christians persecuting one another for being unsound in doctrine.
I also think that an objective entry probably would note that Jews generally do not regard Judaism as a creedal faith.
Eric Alan Isaacson 02:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I have edited the article to note what I understand is the mainstream view, that Judaism is not a creedal faith, and to include in the discussion of creedless Christians references to the Unitarians, Quakers, and Restorationists, including the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and Churches of Christ. Eric Alan Isaacson (talk) 17:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)