Talk:Creation according to Genesis

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Contents

[edit] ARCHIVED DISCUSSION

[edit] The Answer

The Hypostasis of the Archons(the Rulers of Reality) from the Nag Hammadi library indicates that God Almighty(YHWH) did not create man, rather, lesser "gods"(plural, as in Elohim) did so. God Almighty later re-creates man, hence the two accounts. The blatant obviousness of this description shall no doubt be ignored for yet another aeon. Gnower 06:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The text - getting an accurate translation

We've just added a two-part section giving the text of Gen 1-2 verbatim. That's great, but it's not quite an accurate translation. There are some parts of the Hebrew which are contentious, such as whether the opening statement should read "In the beginning God created..." or "In the the beginning when God began his creating..." (contentious because it's the difference between a statement of creation ex nihilo or creation from pre-existing chaos), but there are other parts that aren't. And since they aren't contentious, why does the NIV get them wrong? What caught my attention was the way it changes from "the man" to "Adam" towards the end of Gen.2. The difference depends on the presence or absence of the definite article - ha-adam is "the man" and simple "adam" is Adam. And the Hebrew at this point has ha-adam, not adam. And a bit further up in the same Gen.@ the NIV has "streams" watering the land prior to the creation of the first man. This is slightly contentious - it can be translated "stream" or "mist" - but one thing it ca not be translated as is plural - it's either one stream or one mist, but there's no plural marker. Anyone got a better translation? PiCo (talk) 11:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree a better version needs to be found. The NIV is notorious for containing interpretations and glosses based on the POV of the translators. I would suggest going back to a version that is no longer under copyright -- for example, the ASV or RV. Or perhaps an older Jewish translation which won't be full of Christian traditions Tonicthebrown (talk) 01:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
After some thought, I've come to the conclusion that having the full text in this article is bulky and unnecessary. The full text of the accounts are widely available online. I believe it will be better simply to provide links to the full text, together with a summary in the article. Please let me know if there are any objections. Tonicthebrown (talk) 01:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NIV text

1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light, and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness he called night. And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. 6 And God said, Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water. 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse sky. And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day. 9 And God said, Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear. And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground land, and the gathered waters he called seas. And God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds. And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day. 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth. And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. 20 And God said, Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky. 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day. 24 And God said, Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind. And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground. 29 Then God said, I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food. And it was so. 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.[1]
2:4b When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground 7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. 8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground— trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die. 18 The LORD God said, It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him. 19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman', for she was taken out of man. 24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. 25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.[2]


The text is incorrect, as the translators had a fundamental misunderstanding of the Hebrew language. In Hebrew, there is a letter vav (the sixth letter) which serves as both a letter in its own right, as well as a common prefix that means and. The vav in the latter sense is referred to as a vav hachibur (literally "the vav of connection"), such as when it connects two things in the meaning of and (note that the ha- in hachibur is itself a prefix of the fifth letter hay, which means the). Another use of the letter vav is the vav hahipuch (literally "the vav of switching"). When used in this fashion, the vav switches a verb that is in the future tense into the past tense. The first word of the third verse, Vayomer is one such use of the vav hahipuch: the root and past tense form of the word speak is amar, and with the letter yud placed before it, it becomes the futures tense (he) will say. The vav placed before it changes it into and (he) said. The same holds true for the first word in the fourth and fifth verses, as well as the countless other instances in which biblical verses are quoted in mistranslation as beginning with "And God said..." and "And Moses went...". If a simple grammatical rule cannot be maintained in the translation by the translator of this and many other bibles, how can the rest of the grammar, and perhaps even vocabulary, be relied upon? DRosenbach (Talk | Contribs) 21:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Objection to extensive deletion!

I am dismayed by the decision of PiCo to remove large portions of this article which represented a lot of hard work on the part of many other editors, and which (in my opinion) were highly relevant to this very important article and of encyclopedic quality. I think that this should at least have been discussed first, and a consensus of editors reached. Tonicthebrown (talk) 11:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent major deletions

First, my apologies for making major deletions without explanation. I can only ask for forgiveness.

The reason, which I should have put here earlier, was that I think the article devoted far too much attention to one area, that of the composition of Genesis 1-2. One account or two, the DH or not, etc etc. Yes, this had to be mentioned, but it doesn't need to be treated at such length or so repetitively. There are other aspects to be considered, and at the moment they're being ignored. What about the theology of Genesis? - this book was written to express beliefs about the relationship of God and man, but at the moment this is ignored. What about the cultural context of Genesis? What about later interpretations and the history of faith?

I want to re-write the article with this framework:

  • The text - a summary is probably best - because we need to tell the reader what it is that's being discussed/analysed/discussed.
  • The ANE context - what Israel's neighbor's believed about the origins of the world and man, and the relationship of man and god(s).
  • The theology of Genesis 1-2 - what distinguishes Israel's Creation from those of her neighbors. (this is where the question of composition belongs - it needs just a line or two, not slabs of prose).
  • Later interpretations - how Genesis's Creation has been interpreted, from Philo to Rashi to the present. PiCo (talk) 12:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I certainly agree with PiCo that there was too much emphasis on composition. This topic is already discussed adequately in the Genesis and Documentary hypothesis articles. It only needs a small mention here. I agree with the suggested 4 sections, however I also strongly believe there should be an exegetical section which deals with key aspects of the text which influence its interpretation. For example, concepts such as "firmament" and "deep" are important in delineating the cosmogony of the ancient world Tonicthebrown (talk) 05:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
While waiting for other interested editors to comment, I've started adding potentially useful links to the end of the article - they can be pruned later if they prove not to be so useful after all.PiCo (talk) 12:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
By the way I really would like to spend some time improving this article, as has been suggested above, however due to general busy-ness of life at the moment I am unable to do so. Tonicthebrown (talk) 03:36, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tehom and Sheol

The article says this about tehom:

"The "deep" (Heb. tehôm), a formless body of water, is a mythological term referring to the chaotic primordial waters that, through the creation event, became locked within the underworld (see also: sheol)."

I've never heard of a belief that tehom was locked up in Sheol, and the article on Sheol doesn't mention it. Does anyone know anything about this? PiCo (talk) 06:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This is an area that has interested me for a while. It all relates to the 3-tiered cosmos of the ANE. I've read that sheol, abaddon (destruction) and bor (the pit) are synonyms for the underworld. There is a definite association between tehom (the subterranean waters), the underworld, and the great monsters of the deep ("rahab" [Job 26:12], "leviathan" [Isaiah 27:1], cf. Genesis 1:21) but I'm not exactly sure how they are all related. Tonicthebrown (talk) 12:24, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revisions by 68.217.168.146

I have reverted the revisions made by user 68.217.168.146. The user's rationale for his/her revisions were unsatisfactory. He/she claims that the "ref cited had no authority". This reference, Gordon Wenham, is a highly respected Old Testament and Pentateuch scholar, so I feel he has a little more "authority" than your Original Research. The Word Biblical Commentary series (who Wenham wrote for) is a high quality academic commentary series containing some of the best Christian scholarship.

The assertion that the firmament "denotes the atmosphere or sky, possibly extending its reference to outer space" relies on an anachronistic reading of the text. Nearly all ancient civilizations believed that the heavens were a solid dome or ceiling, the concept "outer space" was absent. Tonicthebrown (talk) 10:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ANE context

I've expanded this section, but it's off the top of my head, no refs (although I can provide them, and will). Please treat this as a tentative outline of how this section should look and edit frely. Merry Christmas - I'll be away for a week or two, till after New Year. PiCo (talk) 11:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Good work buddy, I look forward to further improvement of this section. Tonicthebrown (talk) 11:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Your "expansion" is entirely uncited. I am therefore reverting per WP:V. HrafnTalkStalk 11:21, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Here's the text of Pico's work

The ancient world conceived of the universe (a word the ancients would not, of course, have recognised) as a flat disk (occasionally a flat square or oblong) surrounded by water. The habitable world was seen as a single continent surrounded by a circular world-ocean of salt water, which extended above the disk of the world. A second ocean, of fresh water, lay beneath the world-continent, and was the source of springs, rivers, and other groundwaters. The sky was a solid metal dome (tin in Mesopotamia, iron for the Egyptians) separating the habitable earth from the waters of the universal ocean, and enclosing the atmosphere. The sun, moon, stars and other astronomical bodies were set into the sky-dome (the stars) or traveled across its surface (sun, moon and planets).

The Mesopotamians believed that the original state of matter was the "waters of chaos" - the two oceans of fresh and salt water, Apsu (male) and Tiamat (female). According to the Enuma Elish, the primordial couple created six generations of "gods" by naming them. In the final generation, the god Ea killed Apsu, and his son Marduk killed Tiamat - the battle of Marduk and Tiamat forms the centrepiece of the myth, describing how Marduk kills the "dragon" Tiamat with a divine net, wind and arrow, and then forms the sky-dome from one half of her body and the habitable earth from the other, with the Tigris and Euphrates bubbling up from apsu's underground waters through her eyes.

When the gods grew tired of tending the earth they formed man (in seven pairs, male and female) from a mixture of mud, the blood of a slain god, and their own spittle. The purpose of man was to give rest to the gods, but eventually mankind grew too numerous, and the chief of the gods sent a great flood to destroy them. One man, however, acting on the advice of a god who was a friend to mankind (it was he who originally formed man from mud), built a boat and survived the flood, and was granted immortality as a reward.

Less is known about Cananite beliefs, but it appears that many of the same themes were at work: creation through a battle between gods, a view of the coean as representing original chaos, and a collective council of the gods (the "elohim", the plural of the word "el", which meant both god in general and El, the father of all the gods). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tonicthebrown (talk • contribs) 11:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] edit warring

There are several changes at stake here, and at least two of them are clearly improvements to the article. The other two may be less so, but I would still argue for their inclusion:

  1. change from "more fundamentalist wing of the Evangelical tradition in Christianity" to "more conservative wing of the Evangelical tradition in Christianity". 'Fundamentalist' can be a loaded term, and it is a bit too restrictive in terms of who actually holds this view. Many evangelical conservatives would definitely ascribe to Moses authorship and yet would not identify with other aspects of what is now considered 'fundamentalism'.
  2. change from "discovered evidence that the entire Pentateuch was composed" to "discovered evidence causing them to hypothesize that the entire Pentateuch was composed" I think this wording helps clarify that the evidence spawned the hypothesis, rather than proved it.
  3. change from "reflecting these discoveries," to "reflecting these theories," again, this working puts the emphasis on the theories themselves, rather than the evidence itself, which I would venture to say that most modern scholars have never actually laid eyes on.
  4. change from "but is more accurate than the Wellhausen or Graf-Wellhausen hypothesis" to "but is more accurately the Wellhausen or Graf-Wellhausen hypothesis" Here, the former is just plain wrong. The subject of the sentence is the hypothesis. It can't be "more accurate" than itself. Rather, the sentence should give the idea that although it is labeled by some as the document hypothesis, it actually should be more accurately labeled by name as one of the hypotheses. Make sense?

Please do not revert these again. If you disagree with the changes, please bring them to the discussion page. Thanks. HokieRNB (talk) 03:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Try articulating your reasons first, and these problems are less likely to arise. Controversial-seeming edits made with little (if anything) in the way of explanation or justification are likely to be reverted. HrafnTalkStalk 04:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Try reading what you are reverting first. Your careless reverts (1) removed a legitimately disambiguated link, (2) re-broke a correctly fixed wikilink, (3) reintroduced a grammatical error which rendered a sentence meaningless, and (4) proliferated the POV that previous editors had tried to excise. HokieRNB (talk) 04:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Please read Help:Edit summary: "note that if the reason for an edit is not clear, it is more likely to be reverted". And please stop blaming me for your (and your compatriots') previous inability to articulate an explanation for these changes. HrafnTalkStalk 04:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Please also note that edits which are "more likely to be reverted" do not grant one immunity from WP:3RR. HokieRNB (talk) 04:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Given that I didn't even come close to violating WP:3RR, your "note" is utterly spurious. On the more loosely defined charge of "edit warring" it is entirely likely that a lack of clear reasons in the edit summaries would be taken into account in judging if I had committed the offense. HrafnTalkStalk 05:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Personally I agree with Hokie's revision. It reduces the POV in that section, especially replacing the word "fundamentalist". "Fundamentalist" has too much derogatory connotation, and "conservative" is better. Tonicthebrown (talk) 07:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not objecting to the changes, now that they have been explained to me, but rather to HokieRNB's self-righteous tone. HrafnTalkStalk 07:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Neither version looks perfect to me – thanks go to Hrafn for keeping a lid on unsubstantiated changes, and to HokieRNB for providing an explanation for further discussion. Both appear to be acting in good faith, and accusations of misbehaviour are not helpful – now let's focus on the content. ... dave souza, talk 08:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
  1. Do we have a source for fundamentalist, "Evangelical tradition, and conservative? All of these terms have specific meanings which have shifted over time. The doc-hyp.pdf source says "Some Jews and Christians reject the theory entirely, and follow the traditional view that the whole Torah is the work of Moses. Others, such as the translators of the New International Version take a middle ground, believing that Moses was the author of much of the text, and editor and compiler of the majority of the rest. Most critical bible scholars, however, accept the principle of multiple authorship, ... "
  2. Both "discovered evidence that the entire Pentateuch was composed" and "discovered evidence causing them to hypothesize that appear to be coded references to the higher criticism of the 18th/19th century, which is used in doc-hyp.pdf as an earlier term for "Source Criticism", the subject of this section. Why don't we use these terms?
  3. Both "reflecting these discoveries," to "reflecting these theories seem to miss the point, suggest "scholarship", " or "analysis" as better words.
  4. The new phrasing is supported by dev-doc-hyp.pdf, "Usually the Documentary Hypothesis is credited to Wellhausen"

The first three points suggest changes are appropriate. Comments? .. . dave souza, talk 09:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Note, we do have an article on source criticism but it's a bit limited. ... dave souza, talk 10:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mosaic authorship

I've added one citation of a source which supports the idea that Mosaic authorship is subscribed to by Evangelicals. There are plenty of other Evangelicals who would reject the Documentary Hypothesis and accept Moses as either author or at least compiler/editor:

(sorry, forgot to sign earlier...) HokieRNB (talk) 15:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The three who have wikipedia articles are a theologian/pastor, a pastor & a hydraulic engineer respectively. None of them appear to have any significant background in Biblical criticism, Biblical archaeology, or related fields. Are any of the others experts in relevant fields? I think it would be important to distinguish between the opinions of evangelical scholars in these fields, versus evangelicals lacking such expertise. HrafnTalkStalk 15:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The question is not whether or not individuals have specific expertise in the field of criticism or archeology, but whether it can be rightly said that "... Mosaic authorship ... is still held as dogma by many Jews and evangelical Christians." HokieRNB (talk) 16:38, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
So you don't think that the views of evangelicals who actually know what they're talking about are relevant? That doesn't really seem to be in keeping with WP:DUE. HrafnTalkStalk 17:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems that you are suggesting that this view is a "tiny-minority", and should not be included at all. While none would argue that Mosaic authorship is accepted by the majority, it represents a significant view, particularly among Evangelicals, and is worthy of mention. I also think it is entirely unnecessary to make the derisive distinction "who actually know what they're talking about", as if to say that proponents of this view don't. HokieRNB (talk) 17:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
What seems to be cited here is an evangelical, essentially a primary source, claiming that the position is held by "many preachers in evangelical churches, not to mention the lay people" so we'd better not mention them ;) There's no source for "many Jews", and another evangelical group or a third party expert might have a different interpretation of how prevalent the view is amongst evangelicals. Thus "many" isn't well enough supported. .. dave souza, talk 17:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
No. To claim that I am "suggesting that this view is a 'tiny-minority', and should not be included at all" is a blatant misrepresentation of what I said. I stated "I think it would be important to distinguish between the opinions of evangelical scholars in these fields, versus evangelicals lacking such expertise." That means giving the opinion of both groups and clearly delineating between them where they may differ. While the opinion of evangelical laymen is of interest, the opinions of evangelical experts is far more relevant. HrafnTalkStalk 18:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Just to be clear, I fully agree with Hrafn that expert opinion is needed. The list of sources above does seem to indicate that a number of authors hold the dogmatic position, but it's original research to extrapolate from that to any indication of just how common their position is. It also raises the question as to whether the position is unique to evangelicals, or whether some other Christian groups should also be included. Perhaps "certain groups of Jews and Christians" would be more accurate. .. dave souza, talk 18:38, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I think you are missing the point. We are not concerned about expert opinion about whether Moses was the author or not. We are concerned about expert opinion about whether Mosaic authorship is a common view. Daniel Block offered that expert opinion in the source provided. Any one of the above authors will confirm that the view itself is commonly held. The phrase "held as dogma by some Jews and many evangelical Christians" is perfectly justified. HokieRNB (talk) 19:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Primeval history subsection, Structure and Composition section

I've added a subsection on the "primeval history"(the name given by biblical scholars to Genesis 1-11). I think the final sentence of the subsection explains why I've added it - we can't talk about the theology of Creation in Genesis without doing so in relation to the entire run of chapters in the "history", which serves as an introduction to the Book of Genesis and the Torah.

I've also renamed the "Authorship" section as "Structure and composition" and made a complete re-write. The previous section I'm pasting in below for reference. I found the concept of authorship rather limited - the structure of Genesis 1&2 is also worth discussing (especially Genesis 1, which is an amazingly intricate piece of work), and Composition covers more than simple authorship (it covers not just who wrote these chapters, but when and why).

Some of the changes:

  • Mosaic authorship: I've deleted all reference to Mosaic authorship, not because I think it's not worth mentioning, but because it's not a theory with any notable following among biblical scholars. Due weight excludes it from this section. But it should still be discussed, and the proper place to do that will be later, in the section that talks about Creationist beliefs. I'll get that done in due course.
  • Documentary hypothesis: Contrary to what many people seem to think, the DH is not the cutting-edge theory on the origin of the bible. It was up to 1975 or so, but not these days. I've shortened the material on the DH, and written a few paras about the two post-DH theories, which are known technically as supplementary and fragmentary hypotheses. The two scholars I mention are the leading advocates of these two approaches, but there are many more.
  • Single/dual account, order of events, & writing style: The existing section got itself very bogged down in details on these questions. So I've treated them much more succinctly, in the context of the composition of the Torah. These are fascinating issues, but the reader who wants to know more would be best served by following the references to the online sources.


According to Jewish tradition the first 5 books of the Bible, including Genesis, were written by Moses. This Mosaic authorship tradition was adopted by the earliest Christians and is still held as dogma by some Jews and many evangelical Christians[3].

By the late 18th century higher criticism led biblical scholars to hypothesize that the entire Pentateuch was composed in the 5th century BC by an author using four source documents. Modern Biblical scholars, reflecting this source criticism, frequently speak of Genesis 1 as the Priestly (or "P") creation story and Genesis 2 as the Yahwist ("J" or "Y", the J reflecting the German spelling of the name Yahweh). The remaining two sources, not represented in the Genesis creation account, are called the Elohist ("E") and Deuteronomist ("D"), and the 5th-century creator of the final work is known as the Redactor ("R"), meaning editor. The most influential version of the documentary hypothesis was put forward by Julius Wellhausen in a series of books in the last decades of the 19th century. Wellhausen's dates for the creation stories in Genesis were: Genesis 1 (the Priestly story), c.950 BC; and Genesis 2 (the Yahwist), c. 550 BC.[4]

Single vs. dual account Some scholars believe that the Genesis account is a single report of creation, which is divided into two parts, written from different perspectives: the first part, from Genesis 1:1–2:3, describes the creation of the Earth from God's perspective; the second part, from Genesis 2:4-24, describes the creation of the Garden of Eden from Humanity's perspective. One such scholar wrote, "[T]he strictly complementary nature of the accounts is plain enough: Genesis 1 mentions the creation of man as the last of a series, and without any details, whereas in Genesis 2 man is the center of interest and more specific details are given about him and his setting" (Kitchen 116-117).

Other scholars, particularly those ascribing to textual criticism and the Documentary hypothesis, believe that the first two chapters of Genesis are two separate accounts of the creation. (They agree that the "first chapter" should include the first three verses and the first half of the fourth verse of chapter 2.) One such scholar wrote: "The book of Genesis, like the other books of the Hexateuch, was not the production of one author. A definite plan may be traced in the book, but the structure of the work forbids us to consider it as the production of one writer." (Spurell xv). For some religious writers, such as Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik, the existence of two separate creation stories is beyond doubt, and thus needs to be interpreted as having divine importance.[citation needed]

Order of events The earlier version appears in (Genesis 1:1—2:3} and key items follow this order of creation: # plants; # marine animals, birds; # land animals; # humans (man and woman together) (Genesis 1:20—27).

The second account begins with (Genesis 2:4} wherein key items of creation appear in this order: # man (not woman); # plants; # land animals and birds (marine animals are omitted but omission is not a contradiction and the order of birds and beasts is not stated as being on separate days unlike chapter 1); # and, when no "help meet for [fit for, corresponding to] him" is found, woman (Genesis 2:7, 9, 18 – 22).[5]

Names of God The first section exclusively refers to God as Elohim, whereas the second exclusively uses the composite name Yahweh Elohim (the former word is often translated "LORD").

Single account advocates assert that Hebrew scriptures use different names for God throughout, depending on the characteristics of God which the author wished to emphasize. They argue that across the Hebrew scriptures, the use of Elohim in the first segment suggests "strength," focusing on God as the mighty Creator of the universe, while the use of Yahweh in the second segment suggested moral and spiritual natures of deity, particularly in relationship to the man.[6]

Dual account advocates assert that the two segments using different words for God indicates different authorship and two distinct narratives, in accord with the Documentary hypothesis.

Writing style Though not so obvious in translation, the Hebrew text of the two sections differ both in the type of words used and in stylistic qualities. The first section flows smoothly, whereas the second is more interested in pointing out side details, and does so in a more point of fact style.[citation needed] One of the principles of textual criticism is that large differences in the type of words used, and in the stylistic qualities of the text, should be taken as support for the existence of two different authors. Proponents of the two-account hypothesis point to the attempts (e.g., The Book of J, by Harold Bloom, translated by David Rosenberg) to separate the various authors of the Torah claimed by the Documentary Hypothesis into distinct and sometimes contradictory accounts.[citation needed]

Proponents of the single account argue that style differences need not be indicative of multiple authors, but may simply indicate the purpose of different passages. For example, Kenneth Kitchen, a retired Archaeology Professor of the University of Liverpool, has argued (1966) that stylistic differences are meaningless, and reflect different subject matter. He supports this with the evidence of a biographical inscription of an Egyptian official in 2400 B.C., which reflects at least four different styles, but which is uniformly supposed to possess unity of authorship.[citation needed]

The replacement section is completely unsourced. I'm reverting until this deficiency has been rectified. HrafnTalkStalk 16:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Not only (was) it unsourced, but it represents a substantial and controversial change and should be discussed on the talk page. I will revert once more in hopes of working toward some consensus. HokieRNB (talk) 17:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm happy to put my proposals into a sandbox, but have no idea how to cerate one. Can anyone help? PiCo (talk) 17:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
All you need is a redlink like this: User:PiCo/sandbox. click on it & create away. HrafnTalkStalk 17:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


Thanks. I've done that now. Please give me your comments. PiCo (talk) 18:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mosaic authorship, redux

Here are some other evangelical experts holding Mosaic authorship:

  • William D. Barrick, B.A., Denver Baptist Bible College; M.Div., Th.M., San Francisco Theological Seminary; Th.D., Grace Theological Seminary
  • Merrill F. Unger, A.B., Ph.D Johns Hopkins University; Th.M, Th.D Dallas Theological Seminary
  • Gleason L. Archer, B.A., M.A., Ph.D. Harvard University; LL.B., Suffolk Law School, B.Div., Princeton Theological Seminary

Other older works include:

If you want to prove that a lot of people (esp. Evangelicals) believe Moses wrote the Torah, you need something like a Gallop poll, not these guys. If you want to prove that Mosaic authorship is an academically respectable position, these won't really work - the scholarly consensus is that Moses didn't do it. PiCo (talk) 00:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
PiCo you need to fix your idea of "scholarly" - it's fine to say "liberal scholarhip", or something like that, and its fine to talk about the majority having dismissed Mosaic authorship. But you can't just dismiss it as a non-respectable position. I've given you a dozen respected names who hold it. It's a legitimate minority view. HokieRNB (talk) 00:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Be that as it may, if your aim is to prove that Mosaic authorship is widely held among lay Christians and Jews, you need something like a Gallup poll - the Gallup organisation has done these polls, and I'll find you one if you wish. Personally I'm quite ready to accept that this is the case without asking for a citation. If, on the other hand, your aim is to show that Mosaic authorship is an academically respectable position, you'll need to find a paper arguing that case in a mainstream journal. I don't recall ever having seen one. It will have to be a modern paper, not one published a hundred years ago - times move on. (Incidentally, George Wright makes a curious error: he believes that an argument against the documentary hypothesis is an argument in favour of Mosaic authorship. In fact the DH takes it for granted that Moses didn't write the Torah, and seeks to answer the question, "If not Moses, then who?") —Preceding unsigned comment added by PiCo (talk • contribs) 16:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

For example:

  • W.J. Martin, in "Stylistic Criteria and the Analysis of the Pentateuch" (Tyndale Press, 1959)
  • Bruce K. Waltke, in "The Creation Account in Genesis 1.1-3" (Bibliotheca Sacra 132, 1975)
  • Duane L. Christensen and Marcel Narucki, in "Mosaic Authorship of the Pentateuch" (JETS 32/4, 1989)
  • John H. Sailhamer, in "The Mosaic Law and the Theology of the Pentateuch" (Westminster Theological Journal 53, 1991)
  • Daniel I. Block, in "Recovering the Voice of Moses, the Genesis of Deuteronomy" (JETS 44/3, 2001)

All I'm really asking is to maintain the statement as it stands... "According to Jewish tradition the first 5 books of the Bible, including Genesis, were written by Moses. This Mosaic authorship tradition was adopted by the earliest Christians and is still held as dogma by some Jews and many evangelical Christians." HokieRNB (talk) 17:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

After further consideration, I'd like to submit the words "secular" or "mainstream" for consideration as a qualifier for "scholarship". That is to say, a statement like this might be acceptable - "According to tradition the first 5 books of the Bible, including Genesis, were written by Moses. This Mosaic authorship tradition was adopted by the earliest Christians and is still held dogmatically by some Jews and many evangelical Christians, but has been rejected by the consensus of [secular/mainstream] scholarship since the rise of higher criticism in the late 18th century." (Obviously removing the emphasis.) Thoughts? HokieRNB (talk) 17:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm quite happy with the first paragraph as it is: "According to Jewish tradition the first 5 books of the Bible, including Genesis, were written by Moses. This Mosaic authorship tradition was adopted by the earliest Christians and is still held as dogma by some Jews and many evangelical Christians." Except, that is, for the word "dogma" - dogma is a technical word used in the Catholic Church, and Protestants and Jews don't have dogmas. Just take out the words "as dogma". And perhaps I shouldn't be happy with talking about "some" Jews and "many Evangelical" Christians. So far as I'm aware the Jews who hold this view are the Orthodox, and it's more than "some" of them. And I'm not sure that belief in Mosaic authorship is restricted to Evangelicals - it was a dogma of the Catholic Church, for example, using that word in it's strict sense. So maybe "many Christians and Orthodox Jews" would be safer. And I wouldn't ask you for a reference, I'd take it as common knowledge.
I'm not at all happy with the second paragraph - it's full of errors (the reference to "higher criticism", for example, should be to source criticism), and it's very clumsily expressed. And worst of all, it acts as if the documentary hypothesis were still the accepted explanation for the composition of the Torah - I think Friedman is the only one who still believes in the DH today. PiCo (talk) 19:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
So, why don't we delete the second paragraph completely, and try this for the first one:

"According to Jewish tradition the first 5 books of the Bible, including Genesis, were written by Moses. This Mosaic authorship tradition was adopted by the earliest Christians and widely accepted until the rise of [higher/source] criticism in the late 18th century. The view is still held by many believers today, most notably among Orthodox Jews and Evangelical Christians, but has been rejected by the consensus of [secular/mainstream] scholarship most modern scholars." Does that work? HokieRNB (talk) 20:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I like it a lot better. I'd add the words shown in bold, and delete the words in subscript. This makes it more succinct. Unfortunately, it also adds the opportunity for people to insists on cited sources for words like "most" and "many", as applied to scholars and believers (Christian and Jewish). Lets cross that bridge when we come to it. I also agree on removing the second para - someday we can replace it with something better if we wish.PiCo (talk) 03:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
No comments for several days - I'm putting these edits into the article. PiCo (talk) 14:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed new section, "Structure"

I'd like to add the following to the article as a new section, immediately before the "Authorship"section, or possibly a subsection combined with it:

Genesis 1 consists of eight acts of creation within a six day framework. Each of the first three days is an act of division: dark/light, waters/skies, sea/land & plants. In the next three days this framework is populated: heavenly bodies for the dark and light, fish and birds for the seas and skies, animals and (finally) man for the land. This six-day structure is symmetrically bracketed by day zero representing primeval chaos and day seven representing cosmic order.Priestly Creation Story - course notes by Professor Barry Bandstra, Hope College Genesis 2 is a simple linear narrative, with the exception of the parenthesis about the four rivers at Genesis 2:10-14. This interrupts the forward movement of the narrative and might therefore be an insertion based on the spring or stream which waters the ground “on the day when Yahweh Elohim formed earth and heavens.” David Carr, “The Politics of Textual Subversion: A Diachronic Perspective on the Garden of Eden Story”, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 112, No. 4 (Winter, 1993), pp. 577-595.

The “Primeval History” mimics Genesis 1’s intricate structure of parallel halves. The first half runs from Creation to Noah, the second from the Flood to Abraham. Each half is marked by the passage of ten generations (ten from Adam to Noah, another ten from Noah to Abraham). Like Genesis 1, each half has a six-part structure, and the content of each half exactly mirrors the other. Each follows the same themes, but with very different results: in the first half, God creates a perfect world for man, but man sins and God eventually returns his creation to its original state of chaos (i.e., the water of tehom); in the second, man finds himself in a newly created post-Flood world, as if given a chance to start again, but sins again (the Tower). But the result the second time is different: God choses Abram and makes his name (Heb. shem) great. The word shem appears to have structural significance: in Genesis 1, God names the elements of his Creation; in Genesis 2, “the man” (not at this stage named Adam), names the creatures over which he has been given dominion; Noah’s eldest son is “Shem”, and Yahweh is identified as “the God of Shem,” ancestor of Abraham and the Chosen People.Thematic Unity - course notes by Professor Barry Bandstra, Hope College.

For consideration and comment. PiCo (talk) 15:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Creation theology

I renamed the section from "Summary of interpretations"to "Creation theology", which I think is more descriptive.

I also condensed the section. So far as possible I did this without removing material - I moved material around and sumamrised some points, but tried not to remove altogether. The major thing I did remove was the list of the six days of creation - this is already covered in the first section of the article. PiCo (talk) 15:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New subsection - Theology of Genesis

I've added a new subsection on academic perspectives on the theology contained in Genesis. It has to look beyond just Genesis 1-2 as the theological stories extend throughout Genesis and indeed throughout the bible. But I've tried to maintain the focus on Genesis 1-2. A weakness is that I rely on just two authors. Both are reasonably notable, but it would be good to have more. The material on Meredith Kline, for example, logically belongs in here - his framework hypothesis is mainstream biblical scholarship.

Comments? PiCo (talk) 15:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)