Talk:Creation Research Society

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[edit] Statement of belief

  1. Inserting claims, that are not traceable to Numbers, into a statement cited to him is WP:OR.
  2. That "YECs considers YEs and OECs to be Evolutionists" is (1) unsourced WP:OR and (2) a blatantly WP:POV characterisation of OECs, that should not be presented as anything other than a YEC view.

HrafnTalkStalk 03:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

  1. Numbers does a 'chop shop' job on Creationists and Creationism. While the information he provides may be historically accurate, he dwells extensively and exclusively on everything negative that has ever happened among creationists. Thus Numbers' extreme negative bias makes his work nearly useless, but for basic facts that might be sifted from it's gloomy pages.
  2. Numbers' "mandatory for all members" statement is an example of his extreme negativity. First off, only Creationists would even want to join. Second, evolutionists would have no interest in joining. "mandatory" is blatant yellow journalism. "mandatory" implies forcing people against their will. No one is forced to join CRS. No one would want to join who does not agree with the beliefs. Your insistence on keeping that phrase in the article shows your POV sympathy with Numbers' yellow journalism. My paraphrase "to repel skeptics and attract fellow believers' better reflects the real purpose of the statement of beliefs and skims over Numbers' yellow journalism.
  3. "YECs consider TEs and OECs to be Evolutionists" was not a part of the article and so not subject to OR or POV. But that position is a fact that can be easily confirmed by reading articles on the AiG and ICR web sites. If it were to become part of the article, sources could easily be found. And besides, the original sentence of the first paragraph states that CRS wished to keep out evolutionists. I simply rearranged the sentence to make it read easier.

Christian Skeptic (talk) 03:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

CS: as I said your repeated slanders of a respected academic only make you look like a tendentious extremist. That the "statement of beliefs" was part of an effort to eject membership (including OECs) who disagreed with Morris is well documented, so your "only [YE] Creationists would even want to join" claim is patently false. Can you substantiate that the SoB is voluntary? Unlikely, given the CRS purges. If not, then to characterise it as "mandatory" would appear to be justified, and to call it "yellow journalism" would appear to be just a baseless smear campaign from an extremist partisan. Your usage of "evolutionists" to include OECs was part of your edits to this article, and so was impermissible OR & POV. HrafnTalkStalk 03:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Numbers' book reads as yellow journalism--"loosely defined as not quite libel"--from cover to cover. Numbers takes great pains to slip in words every chance he gets that give a negative spin to everything that has happened. He is a master at his deceptive craft. He can lie without technically lying. I wouldn't trust him if he told me the sun rose in the east.
During the first couple years of CRS there was controversy over the statements of beliefs that were being formulated and some left on their own accord and some were pressured. However, nothing like that has happened in the 40 years since. If it had, you can be sure that Numbers would have sniffed it out and blown it way out of proportion. Numbers' account of internal CRS controversy narrowly focuses on just a few years at it formation and ignores the happenings of 40 years of its existence since. And so he gives an utterly false and dirty impression of what CRS is and does.
YECs consider OECs to be evolutionists. That you do not know this shows your massive ignorance. [1]
Comments on the "edit summary" line are not part of the article. They are simply explanations for and comments on what action had been taken.
Christian Skeptic (talk) 05:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
  1. I don't give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys as to your (or anybody else's) personal opinion of Numbers. What matters is the academic consensus on Numbers -- which is that he is highly regarded, even by many creationists. If you want to contest his reliability as a source, then call an RfC on the matter.
  2. Nothing you have said about events in the CRS is substantiated, nor does it raise any substantial questions with the version that Numbers gives. You have admitted that those of differing views of what "creation" entailed were "pressured" to leave. These purges and the imposition of the SoB would make it clear to anybody that didn't hold identical views that they were not welcome, so it is hardly surprising that the effort did not need to be repeated.
  3. If YECs are allowed to edit articles to reflect their view that OECs are "evolutionists", are evolution-supporters likewise allowed to edit articles to reflect their (far better substantiated) viewpoint that YECs are "delusional religious fanatics" and that Ken Ham is a "lying charlatan"? NPOV would appear to suggest that none of these are acceptable, and thus that you are not permitted to phrase a statement that implicitly states that OECs are evolutionists (as your edit summary admitted that it did).

HrafnTalkStalk 08:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


As you quoted from Numbers: "The issue of a statement of belief caused considerable controversy within the CRS during its formation, with considerable wrangling over wording, and little consensus beyond keeping out evolutionists."
As I edited it to read better: "The issue of a statement of belief, whose main goal was to keep out evolutionists, caused considerable controversy within the CRS during its formation, with little consensus and considerable wrangling over wording."
Both sentences say the same thing and I said nothing about TE or OEC. You are the one who brought them up when you said. "the "main goal" was to keep out everybody, TEs, OECs, etc, whose views didn't perfectly mesh with theirs." (This statement is itself unsourced WP:OR and also a blatant characterization of YECs)
I was merely agreeing with you when I pointed out: "YECs consider TEs and OECs to be Evolutionists." And thus, as you said, it was to "keep out everybody" who does not agree with them.
Then you get all steamed and talking nonsense about "(1) unsourced WP:OR and (2) a blatantly WP:POV characterisation of OECs," What YECs think about OECs is irrelevant to what OECs (or others) think about OECs. What YECs think about OECs is a fact of life. What OECs think about YECs is a fact of life. These POVs exist. Talking about these POVs is not the same as supporting them. And pretending they don't exist is silly.
Those endorsements by some creationists appeared on the first edition of Numbers' book. I'm certain that those creationists regret they ever said anything by now. The endorsements were simply carried over to the second edition to give a false impression. All reviews of Numbers' book in creationary literature have been very, very negative. Since "academia" is nearly all anti-theistic and pro-evolution it is not surprising that Numbers is 'highly regarded.' YECs disagree with "academia" on most things that impact creationism and evolutionism. Christian Skeptic (talk) 17:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

CS: from the fact that the SoB specifically includes specifically YE terms like "the Creation Week" and "the Noachian Flood", it can be inferred that the "main goal" went well beyond keeping "evolutionists" (taking that to mean its NPOV meaning of those who accept theistic evolution or naturalistic evolution]]) out, to encompass exclusion of OECs. Your original edit is therefore prima facie fallacious (regardless of acceptance of Numbers). Beyond that, you have not cited a single alternate reliable source, so any edit that cannot be founded in Numbers is pure unsubstantiated WP:OR. Likewise your assertion about the creationists' endorsement of is completely unsubstantiated. As far as you "academia hates us" whine, I direct your attention to WP:REDFLAG (part of WP:V), bulletpoint 4: "Be particularly careful when proponents of such claims say there is a conspiracy to silence them." In fact you have not made a single point that has any basis whatsoever in wikipedia policy. HrafnTalkStalk 18:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say or whine "academia hates us" That is your typical, biased misinterpretation. I said that YECs disagree with 'academia' on philosophical grounds. And it's no wonder they praise Numbers for they agree with his biased, yellow journalistic approach to creationism. Christian Skeptic (talk) 20:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Numbers' book is published by Harvard University Press, making it, on wikipedia, one of the most reliable sources available. There's no real justification for challenging the book or its contents. As long as the text accurately summarizes and does not misrepresent the meaning of the book's contents, it's near ideal as a source, you couldn't really ask for better - per the third paragraph in this section. WLU (talk) 20:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Because I have access to many references which cover the cs movement, I was asked take a look at them to see what they've written that may pertain here. The two issues of contention which were raised here recently appear to be surrounding the crafting of the statement of belief, and over who is expected to sign it. Both Nelkin and Numbers agree that the intention to "keep out evolutionists" was key to the organisation pulling away, from splitting with the ASA, but the subsequent internal skirmishes were over what kind of anti-evolutionism the society was to limit itself to. Nelkin did not identify the statement of belief negotiations in particular, but describes differences in the early days as doctrinal, not over evolutionism. Numbers sources for his account were early CRS documents and writings of Lammerts, available through a CRS library, and a published history written by Morris. The statement of belief is described also in Scott and Petto/Godfrey's book as well as Numbers. It's consistently reported in each that all voting members must sign to it. Numbers is a very sound source. Any claim made that contradicts claims sourced to Numbers would have to be defended with solid sources, and even then it would be an uphill climb. Numbers is as close to being the definitive source that currently exists. Nobody with any serious scholarship in this area ignores Numbers; he's easily the most often cited independent reference outside perhaps the primary sources. Professor marginalia (talk) 02:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Numbers is "the definitive source" because is is basically the ONLY source that 'academia' would accept, no matter how biased and yellow journalistic. Of course anyone wanting membership in CRS must sign the SoB, because if you want to join a group that holds some set of beliefs you are expected to demonstrate that you also hold those beliefs. If you want to join ANY special interest group you do so because you agree with their special interests. Sheesh..... No one is forced to join. And if you demonstrate that you disagree with the SoB, you should be expected to step down or be removed from the group. Duh!! Same thing applies to Wikipedia!!! If you don't follow the rules and beliefs, out you go.
All this fuss over membership and statement of beliefs is utter stupidity. Christian Skeptic (talk) 20:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Your feelings for Numbers aside, the relationship to statement of beliefs and membership issue is confirmed on the CRS website, and the emphasis upon religious doctrinal issues in the statement of beliefs is self evident. There is no reason to attack Numbers scholarship over these two points because the information is confirmed several ways. These articles tend to turn into soap boxes unless a strong stand is taken against digressing into personal opinions rather than content. The talk page isn't for blogging or opinionating, so without directing this warning to anyone in particular, I'm reminding everyone here to keep to the point. Professor marginalia (talk) 21:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
What I object to is the implications of the phrase "mandatory for all members". Numbers subtlety and underhandedly uses it to imply that there are people out there who desperately want to join CRS but cannot because they disagree with the statement of beliefs (SoB). OR that there are some who have "agreed" to the SoB but secretly chaff at the horrible restrictions of the SoB. This completely opposite of reality.
The SoB define CRS. Someone who already agrees with the SoB would most likely be interested enough to join if they wish. Someone who disagrees with the SoB would have little desire to associate with those who do. The way the article reads it sounds like people are being excluded against their will. You have to believe or else there will be terrible consequence..... The reality is that someone who disagrees wouldn't bother to join in the first place. Or, if a member experiences a change of mind, they wouldn't want to remain a member anyway. CRS does not have a membership review committee to enforce 'agreement' with the SoB.
I tried to correct this articles extremely biased and misleading statement, which got this discussion started. And it still needs to be corrected. Christian Skeptic (talk) 05:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I think you are reading too much into the word "mandatory". I understand it to mean the same as "All members must subscribe to the following statement of belief", the wording chosen by the CRS itself. But you seem to want to eliminate the information, not just change the wording. Don't you think that the "must" is an important piece of information that helps a reader judge the importance of the SoB within the CRS? --Art Carlson (talk) 09:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
CS, this required assent to the statement of belief is given great prominence by the CRS itself, (that agreement with it is "required" is prominently disclosed at CRS website on numerous pages ([2], [3], [4] ). It's also been a focal point in the controversy over mainstream science and creation science, and has had major repercussions in the courts too, most important of which was when the federal court was forced to judge whether creation science was a science or a religion. The requirement of members to adopt the CSR statement of belief was one of the factors the judge relied upon in his ruling in McLean v Arkansas (CSR furnished five expert witnesses in the McLean trial). This isn't just about Numbers; most others watching the issue as well, not to mention the CSR itself, considers this requirement significant. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Reliable source trumps opinion. Case closed. In this case, there appears to be multiple sources saying the same thing. Complaining about yellow journalism is not a source. WLU (talk) 23:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Schisms

Trying to nip this before it gets crazy: Let's gather up sources on this and see what they say exactly. Nothing is resolved by replacing one unsourced claim with a new unsourced claim. Professor marginalia (talk) 18:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)