Talk:Crass

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[edit] Graffiti = vandalism

If the owners of the graffitied property considered it vandalism and removed it, then it's vandalism. Is there any evidence that anybody who had their property graffitied by Crass accepted their interpretation that it was a political statement, or did the owners all just consider it criminal damage? Did they suffer financial loss in doing so or did Crass offer to pay to clean it up in such caseS?

The Berlin Wall is a poor analogy here because it was in effect a prison wall and thus had a very clear role in state-sponsored repression. It's hard to say the same about the Bakerloo Line.

If one were to turn up at Dial House and paint "Thatcher rules!" on it in white letters a foot high, would Crass consider that vandalism or a legitimate way of expressing a view they would probably disagree with?

Overall the whole article reads like it was written by someone who has read too many 1970s NME record reviews. Considering they were a commercially unsuccessful thrash punk band, do they merit an article of this length? Tirailleur (talk) 17:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


I wouldn't be too sure about that 'commercially unsuccessful' if I were you. And, according to its members, Crass made a point of not spraying on private property. So your Dial House comparison doesn't fly. Finally, the whole article has been written by dozens of people, not just one NME fan.  Channel ®    18:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
In what sense were they commercially successful? Also the article says they graffitied advertising hoardings. Those are private property because the space is sublet to companies like JC Decaux who who then sell the space on. Tirailleur (talk) 18:49, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
They were commercially successful in the sense that they sold lots of records. Four of their albums went to number 1 on the UK Indie Chart, with Stations of the Crass spending 106 weeks in the chart, and ten of their singles were indie hits, ranging from number 1 (4 times) to 11 at the lowest. Christ The Album was also a UK top 30 hit.--Michig (talk) 18:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
And as far as spraying on advertising boards goes, that's not what I mean with 'private property'. Private property is people's houses, garden walls, etc. If an advertising board is private property than so was the Berlin Wall (property of the German government, no?). One more thing: the length of an article has nothing to do with the amount (or lack) of commercial success the subject has (or had). If that was a rule than people like John Cage or Karlheinz Stockhausen would have to be summed up in one sentence.  Channel ®    19:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
By the way, even if it is vandalism... then what? You want the band to go back now, 30 years later, to see if there's anything left to clear up or pay for? I don't get it. What's your point?  Channel ®    21:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I was kind of wondering what the relevance between this discussion and this article was myself. Murderbike (talk) 22:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
This might be better discussed at Talk:Graffiti. The distinction has been raised here before. ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 06:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Andy Palmer / Joy de Vivre

The articles for Andy and Joy are bare, to say the least. I've managed to add some stuff to Andy's, but there's not a lot TO add. Or if there is, I can't find it. The same goes for Joy's article. Any suggestions / help / referenced info available? Somebody? Somewhere?  Channel ®    23:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Anarcho punk is a genre. Or not?

To User:Johan Rachmaninov: Before this erupts into a revert war, why do you keep removing the Anarcho punk genre from the article? If it's not a genre, then what is it? Anybody else has thoughts on this?  Channel ®   07:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It's definitely a genre, and I don't think it's valid to hold up the Anarcho punk wikipedia article as evidence that it isn't, if that was what was going on. That article needs a lot of work, but while covering the broader aspects of the anarcho-punk 'culture', does not demonstrate that it isn't a genre.--Michig (talk) 08:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, for one the page on Anarcho punk clearly states that it is not a genre. While it may have been a scene, scenes do not automatically translate into genres. Also, if it is a genre, What are the musical charartistics that seperate it from others in the punk genre? Just beacause a band talks about how they are anarchist does not mean it suddenly a genre. Johan Rachmaninov (talk) 17:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

So you are saying that this category (and the 146 bands in it) is nonsense?  Channel ®   00:11, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I see bands from at least 4 different punk sub genres in thereInhumer (talk) 16:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


No, I'm just saying that it it is not a genre. This does not mean that it cant be a catogory are that certain bands can be group under it, it just means that it is not appropriate to put in the info bax under genre. Plus, many bands on that list are not anarchist. O, and by the way, you still have not answered my question on what musical propertied make it a genre. Sometimes silence is louder than words. Johan Rachmaninov (talk) 01:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC) In fact, I would say that anrcho-punk is more of a movement than a genre. After all, do you know the reason that the anchro-punk article treats it as a movement rather than a genre? It's beacause no one can find a source stating that it is a genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johan Rachmaninov (talk • contribs) 01:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not going to play your little game. I've noticed in your edit history that you like to do Genre "policing", even getting blocked for it, and I'm not going to be sucked into this pointless discussion. A genre/style is not easily defined as you well know (or should have realized by now). Just look at Death Metal, Black Metal, and Black Doom for example. To me it's all the same, but other people have very different opinions about it and consider them (sub)genres. Okay, fine with me. YOU may not believe Anarcho punk is a genre, but the 146 bands in that category apparently do. Most of them have infoboxes that say "Genre:Anarcho-punk" in their articles as well. If you want to get rid of all of them, good luck. That'll be an interesting discussion on the Talkpages. People might consider you a discipel of The Truth, though.  Channel ®   10:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course anarcho-punk is a musical genre. No need for further discussion on the matter, and I suggest that if the above poster continues to revert the changes s/he be blocked 77.96.212.87 (talk) 14:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, someone needs to read [[WP:CIVIL], WP:NPA, and WP:AGF. Look, I have no problem with the catagory. My only problem is the the fact that we have a link in the genre box that bring people to a page that clearly states that anchro-punk is a movment, not a genre. Strikes me as kinda contradictory. You know all you have to do to end this fight is to get a(reliable) source that says that anchro-punk is a genre and edit it's page accordingly. What is it with punk rock fans and not being able to follow the guidlines of wikipedia? And finally, Channel, don't you dare put words in my mouth again. Johan Rachmaninov (talk) 22:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

And which words would that be exactly?  Channel ®   00:16, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

You inpiled that just beacause I did not think that anchro punk was a genre, I was attacking the category of anchro punk and wanted to get rid of it. Johan Rachmaninov (talk) 01:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

One, "putting words in someone's mouth" means writing or saying something in a way that suggests that the other person said it. I've never done anything of the kind. So don't you "dare" to accuse me of it. Two, don't tell me "all you have to do to end this fight". This is not a fight. This is a difference of opinion between you and the rest (it seems). Three: If you think the problem lies with the Anarcho punk article, then I suggest you work on that article instead of removing a link to it. Four: I didn't "inpile" you wanted to get rid of the category, I wondered if you wanted to get rid of every "Genre:Anarcho punk" line in these bands' infoboxes, like you did with Crass. Finally, the only one who needs to read WP:CIVIL appears to be you.  Channel ®   09:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)