Talk:Crass/archive03

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Missing things

things currently missing from this article that need to be integrated in;

  • Stonehenge 1980 when Crass and punks at the festival were attacked by bikers. Ironic as Rimbaud had helped to set up the festival in the first place!
  • "Bloody Revolutions" benefit single for the 1979 'Persons Unknown' trial, which raised money to set up the Wapping anarchist Centre, also vioelce from SWP at the Persons Unknown benefit gig at the Conway Hall.
  • More about attempted prosecution by Tim Eggar for "How Does It Feel"
  • Obscenity charges for Penis Envy, whcih also involved Flux of Pink Indians and Dead Kennedys
  • VAT problems

quercus robur 18:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

http://www.furious.com/perfect/crass.html

Direct Action, 'Thatchergate' and internal debates - NPOV debate

Vandalism

Sorry, but spray painting messages onto property that you don't own, without permission of the owners is vandalism. And it's not POV to say so. I seriously doubt that band members of CRASS has permission to place graffitti on the london underground. Their "art" wasted tax payer funds for it's removal, thus diverting resources that could have been used for other purposes. This article should not glorify acts of petty criminality, by ascribing to them greater signifigance. 128.84.178.99 13:12, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

This article should not glorify acts of petty criminality, by ascribing to them greater signifigance. This is your POV, even though many people share it. My POV, also shared by many others, is that, much like Banksy, who they predated by some 20 odd years, their graffiti was subversive, made urban environments more interesting, challenged advertising stereotypes and made people think. However such personal opinions should be left out of it as its not appropriate on wikipedia. The article should be kept NPOV, and simply stick to the facts. quercus robur
Agree with Quercusrobur - just as one person's 'terrorist' is another's 'freedom fighter', so too one person's post-situationist detournment of the urban landscape is another's mindless vandalism... just stick to the facts, ma'am, just stick to the facts, as the three blind men said to the elephant's leg.... 82.34.177.22 00:15, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Vadalising the subway was not subversive, does not make urban environments more interesting, and certainly does not challenged advertising stereotypes or make people think. All it does was waste tax payer money, and violate laws against vandalism. It is infact profoundly disrespectful to the working people who pay taxes to support public services. It was vandalism by any definition. And it's not POV or non factual to say so. 128.253.214.55 18:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
No, that is your point of view. I have mine, you have yours. Both should be kept out of an NPOV article. quercus robur 20:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
So you are saying that CRASS did not vandalise the London Underground by spray painting political grafitti without permission? 132.236.176.165 21:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't consider it vandalism, but thats not the point. I'm not really interested in debating this, just ensuring that the article remains nuetral by avoiding loaded terms such as 'vandalism' which only reflect one particular point of view. quercus robur 23:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
At least you are honest about being intellectually dishonest. Vandalism is the exact and factual definition of what CRASS did on the london subways. Vandalism is not a loaded term, it is the course of action that members of CRASS did. I fail to see how this POV, the extant article smacks of buffing and whitewashing in that it weasels out of using plain english to describe its subject matter.. 128.84.178.102 10:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how the term 'graffitti' can be described as 'weaseling', 'buffing' or 'whitewashing'. Its a factual term describing the act of spraying a message on a public wall. Its also a nuetral term. 'Vandalism' on the other hand reflects a point of view. What would be 'weaseling' would be something like; Crass sprayed graffitti on a tube station wall. Some considered this to be an act of vandalism, others however described this act as artistic and political subversion. It would be a shame if the article went in this direction though, at the moment it seems relatively 'tight' and to the point for a wikipedia article. 82.34.177.22 13:20, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

NPOV tag added

have added NPOV tag as an anon user insists on contantly re-inserting loaded and POV comments into this article, see 'vandalism' discussion above. It would be good if a 'third party' could look at this passage and decide whether the term 'vandalism' is appropriate in this context, bearing in mind the arguemnts already laid out above (and notwithstanding the personal attacks made) quercus robur 18:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

You seriously think that describing spray painting graffiti in a subway station as vandalism is "loaded and POV"? 128.253.214.55 03:35, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes I do. That is why I asked for third parties to comment and help to create a consensus, or else this will go nowhere apart from turning into an edit war. quercus robur 10:09, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
According to Webster's dictionary. [1] Vandalism is defined as "willful or malicious destruction or defacement of public or private property". Do you honestly beleive CRASS did not engage in willful defacement of public property? 128.84.178.83 03:16, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I have stated my case. You and I will not reach consensus on this, hence the NPOV tag so that some third party can decide whether the term 'vandal' is appropriate in this context. quercus robur 10:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
You seem to be in denial about if CRASS's actions meet the definition of vandalism. I think it would be healthy for you if you would explain how spray painting political slogan's in a subway satation is not willful defacement of public property. 128.253.214.55 21:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I have no interest in further discussion with you, the section has been NPOV tagged, some one else can decide who is right and who is wrong on this. quercus robur 22:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
PS, I've just looked at your edit history, seems you have a history of trolling, vandalism and POV additions to articles with the intention of causing arguements. Sorry, life is too short for me to indulge you quercus robur 22:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
PPS, so you admit that you can't defend CRASS, because what they did on the london subways was vandalism and [b]you know it[/b]! 128.253.214.55 07:55, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


Don't know why I'm wading into this, but I would feel that the word 'vandalism' would be appropriate if the object of the action was the devaluation of that which was being acted upon or in having no relevance achieved the same effect. "Joanie loves Chachi" scrawled on a wall is much different than a political slogan stenciled in on the Berlin Wall. The former would be vandalism, the latter may very well not be. This is, of course, open to subjective argument, and as a result I would caution against its inclusion in this article. The use of public space for the message was itself *part* of the message, even if I may not myself be in particular agreement with the message itself. Saint Mahone 02:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I think vandalism is the correct NPOV way to describe CRASS actions since they did deface public property. Their stated reasons for doing so don't affect what members of the band actually did. Mohammed al-Khawal 07:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Vote no for vandalism. Their intent wasn't destructive, which is the implication of the loaded term. --Switch 09:07, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Did they deface public property with thier grafitti? 128.84.178.82 09:28, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Was it 'vandalism' when the Berlin Wall was graffited in 1989 or was that an expression of freedom from oppression? Guess it depends on your point of view, but that was public proiperty as well. Was that a good thing or a bad thing? I don't think it is for wikipedia to judge, only to give the facts, not to say our opinions one way or the others 82.34.177.22 18:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
The berlin wall was public property, people were defacing it, it was vandalism. That is a fact. CRASS defaced london subway stations, london subway stations are public property, ergo CRASS vandalised thwe subway stations. That is a fact, Wikipedia is supposed to report facts. 128.253.214.55 11:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
No its a point of view. Vote 'no' to including the word vandalism in this article. The whole subject as to whether graffitti is art, political comment or vandalism might be better discussed at the graffitti article but doesn't belong here 88.109.211.167 13:21, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think any of the people opposing the use of the word vandalism have answered the question of "Did CRASS deface public property with their grafitti?" Mohammed al-Khawal 10:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
That's because it's a question of their Point of View. PhilipPage 22:01, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The more I consider this, the more I lean against using the word here. There is sometihng of a loaded connotation to the word 'graffiti' which I don't believe applies. Equating it as such- 'definition A' meets 'situation B'- would be little different from telling me that putting my terminally ill dog down last week was 'murder.' Saint Mahone 00:51, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The Oxford defines "vandalism" as the "deliberate destruction or damaging of property". Crass didn't deliberately destroy or damage, so that's not vandalism. Whether or not graffiti is vandalism is not a case for this article. Once a general consensus on whether or not graffiti is vandalism has been reached, you can argue that, but not until then. --Switch 14:23, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Someone else has removed the 'NPOV' tag, and the troll who started this 'debate' seems to have moved on elsewhere, so can we take it as read that the NPOV tag does not belong on the section in question? quercus robur 22:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
NO, Crass did damage the london underground by vandalising it with political grafitti. They deliberately spray painted messages on the walls of the subway. Since their actions were not authorised by the administrators of the subway system, their defacement is vandalism. I'm really confused by why so many people are having a hard time with basic english on wikipedia. Mohammed al-Khawal 04:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
You're the one having trouble with English, mate. They did not deliberately damage the underground, because A) Whether or not it was "damaged" (caused physical harm reducing the value, operation, or usefulness) is POV; B) "deliberately" implies intent, and their intent was not to damage, it was a political message. I don't see why you don't get it. --Switch 06:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Photos

Why have all of my photos of Crass been deleted???? These were my pictures, used under gnu license and they've all disapperaed without any warning. I tried to restore one deleted image with no success, would the responsible person please sort this out???? quercus robur 10:55, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Oops looks like it was a wikipedia glitch, everything is back as it was.. quercus robur

Infobox

Have changed the image in the infobox to the Crass logo, I felt this was more appropriate as the band always argued strongly against the 'cult of the individual', and always prefered to be represented by their 'corporate logo', as it were, than by photos of the band. Hope this is OK? quercus robur 09:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm ok with it. I was going to use the logo originally, but most of the other band infoboxes I saw used a pic of the band so I did it for consistency. I don't care much one way or the other. The Ungovernable Force 21:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Protection

Have re-protected the Crass page as still being targetted by serial vandal(s) quercus robur 16:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Have unprotected the page again, lets see how it goes this time... quercus robur 17:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Reprotected, what is it about this page that attracts such obsessive vandalism??? quercus robur 17:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Semi-protected. Lets hope that's enough. Rich Farmbrough 16:47 30 June 2006 (GMT).
To be honest, I like it unprotected because many admins are watching it, and it is usually the first port of call for the vandals. It's effectively a trap. The JPStalk to me 12:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Sneaky Vandalism

As well as the usual blatant vandalism and the ho-hum tedious '1976' perpetual re-insertion, there seem to be little bits of inaccurate disinformation being sneaked into this article, I guess this needs keeping an eye on as well, maybe its time to reinstate the protection? quercus robur 11:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Corporate parasitism

Roll of shame, corporate entities who have been photographed preening in Crass t-shirts as fashion item;

  • Ozzy Osborne
  • David Beckham
  • Alien Ant Farm
who cares? Certainly not any ex members of Crass, although Penny Rimbaud did tell me that he wrote to David Beckham asking that since david is obviously such a big fan of Crass would he be interested in making a donation to the Dial House appeal... needless to say he never got a reply...
I did hear that on the Beckham teeshirt the logo was done in pink sequins, which rather appeals to me I must say... quercus robur 22:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Irelevant links

Removed links to Chumabwamba and the EX as these bands aren't directly related to Crass, also Current 93 and Thought Crime as these were Steve Ignorant projects, not Crass projects, Thought Crime featured 'guest vocals' from Igs on a recording released in 2004, 20 years after Crass ceased operation, so hardly a 'band formed by Steve Ignorant after Crass split' quercus robur 11:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism...

...has started (changing image, changing year of formation to 1976), again. Just, keep an eye on the situation

Crass

I was looking for the word "Crass". I don't know what it means but its something to do with negative behaviour. 86.147.1.221 16:44, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Try the Wiktionary entry for Crass: "Coarse; crude; not refined or sensible". The band took their name from the use of the word in a Bowie song. -Switch t 06:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

hardcore punk

Crass released their third album Penis Envy in 1981. This marked a departure from the 'hardcore punk' image that Feeding of the 5000 and its follow up Stations of the Crass had to some extent given the group.

Isn't hardcore a specific term for the fast-tempo punk rock style emerged in the USA from bands like Circle Jerk, Black Flag and Dead Kennedys? I think the quotes just make it look like more inaccurate. Thank you. (unsigned comment moved from archive to 'live' discussion page by quercus robur 12:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC) )

The term 'harcore punk' was in currency in the UK before being applied to US bands such as Black Flag, etc, and was generally used to diferentiate the 'authentic' punk sounds of bands that weren't percieved as having 'sold out' (ie, developed a more commercial, accessable sound, eg, Siouxsie and the Banshees, later Clash, etc, etc). Bands such as Crass, the Exploited, etc, were certainly considered 'hard core' by UK punks around 1979-80, at least a year or two before we'd heard of the likes of Black Flag, Circle Jerks, etc, and I think that that lable was kind of co-opted a bit later by those US bands. Anyway, Crass probably never considered themselves 'hard-core punk', and following Stations of the Crass with Penis Envy was almost certainly a deliberate strategy to ensure that they didn't get pigeon-holed by one particular narrow lable that had associations with leather jackets, suds, bristles, mohicans and aggressively played 3 chord thrash. Of course as I mentioned above, 'hard core' came to mean something a bit different later on, but within the context of the above quoted statement I think it's appropriate quercus robur 12:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The term was used as described above in the late 1970s in the UK. Crass, Exploited, Discharge etc were known as "hard core punk". US bands like Black Flag and Circle Jerks, when they did become known over here, were never to my knowledge referred to as "hard core punk". They would have just been referred to as "American Punk Bands", at that time anyway.