Talk:Cradle of Filth

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

↓    Skip to table of contents    ↓

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Cradle of Filth article.
Article policies
Archives: 1, 2, 3
Good article Cradle of Filth was a nominee for good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
March 6, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed biographical guide to musicians and musical groups on Wikipedia.
Photo request It is requested that a picture or pictures of this person be included in this article to improve its quality.
Heavy metal Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Metal, an attempt to improve articles related to heavy metal music. Please participate by visiting the project page for more details on the projects.
B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.

The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.
Heavy metal Portal
This article is within the scope of the Black Metal WikiProject, an attempt to improve articles related to black metal. Please participate by visiting the project page for more details on the projects.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

The article has not been rated for quality and/or importance yet. Please rate the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
Archive

Archives

Contents

[edit] Opening statements

[edit] Genre

The policy of this page is to adhere to Wikipedia's NPOV rules regarding Cradle of Filth's genre: "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It should not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions." With this in mind, we report the fact that nobody can agree on a genre, and we use the terms "extreme metal", "heavy metal" and "metal" in their non-specific, "umbrella" sense to describe what sort of band they are. All discussions on this subject, going back at least 18 months, are archived here. Before adding anything further here, or changing the genre on the main page, please read the archive and the whole of the main page including the genre section (ie. not just the infobox and the first line of the first paragraph). If you genuinely believe you have something new to add, post it, and preface your contribution with the words "jam donut" to prove that you've read (and understood) this far. If you do not preface your message with "jam donut", it will be deleted. Cardinal Wurzel 16:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archive notes

I have archived the discussions for this page, as it was getting a bit large. There are three main archives so far, one for Genre Disputes (by far the largest), one for discussions for the article, and a final one for every other subject. All new posts must be made here, and when this page gets over-sized again, we shall move each discussion into the relevant archive. I have put up the Archive Template for you all, enjoy. - The Haunted Angel (The Forest Whispers My Name)


[edit] Is/Are

I've taken this to the talk page at WP:ENGVAR to see if we can get a consensus. It's about 50/50 so far. Cardinal Wurzel 11:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

And the answer is: "is" is technically gramatically correct, but "are" is generally accepted because, while "band" is a singular noun, its inference is plural. See synesis. Y'know, I learned something today... Cardinal Wurzel 19:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Uh, it's "are" because CoF is from the UK. Therefore, you use British-English. Just take a look at other Britsh bands such as Judas Priest, Venom and Iron Maiden. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 01:05, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
See American and British English differences#Formal and notional agreement for discussion of this grammatical difference. --Stormie (talk) 02:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category

shouldn't the category Category:Roadrunner Records artists be added to the page, since they're signed to roadrunner. Balthazar (talk) 03:59, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah - go ahead and add it if you wish. ≈ The Haunted Angel Review Me! 16:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brutal Death Metal

Saying they've been described as brutal death metal is ridiculous. It is fairly apparent that whoever authored the page cited had no clue what brutal death metal is, or even death metal. I suggest they listen to some actual brutal death metal bands, I suggest Sikfuk. The page was not one of journalistic integrity, but instead appeared to be written by some random guy (as evidenced by the pooooor site design)... Perhaps the person who gave the cite? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.235.201.181 (talk) 11:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

You miss the point... Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 22:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, well, to be fair, the point that "a whole bunch of critics have labelled them with a whole bunch of labels" would be made a little more strongly if all the references were to reviewers of slightly more notable stature than that brutal death metal one. --Stormie (talk) 23:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
JAM DONUT Go listen to "Human Waste" or "Effigy of the Forgotten" by Suffocation, "Cranial Impalement" by Disgorge (US) or even "Tomb of the Mutilated" by Cannibal Corpse, then tell me Cradle of Filth sounds anything like brutal death metal. If the opinion of anybody with a hosted website is considered a valid reference for a Wikipedia article, then I might have to consider getting my own website. I could misinform people like this article does! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.132.183 (talk) 01:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Again, you miss the point. We're not saying they sound like brutal death metal, we're saying that their genre has been debated upon, and this is one of the many labels they have been branded. ≈ The Haunted Angel 01:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

okay, im just letting people know that i changed the genre names from 'extreme metal' to 'melodic black metal' on the first 3 albums, the last demo, and first EP of the c.o.f. discography. this is because its the truth. fair enough that there is a large genre dispute, and the band do incorporate much different genres into one these days in the past few albums, although what noone seems to understand is that for the beginning of cradle of filth they were officially and with no question, a melodic black metal band. if you guys need proof, listen to the first albums and read about melodic black metal. all of the characteristics are there. ≈ [[User: Okram 09|18 February 2008 (UTC)

You don't understand how Wikipedia works. Content is dictated by verifiability not truth. In this case, you say to 'go away and listen to the albums'; in Wikipedia-speak this constitutes original research. What you need is a reliable, third-party source. I wish more people on Wikipedia in general could get their heads round this point as most genre-debates revolve around people loudly asserting their POV but never bothering to find reliable sources. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 11:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Blackmetalbaz pretty much summed it up there; but I'll just add this - please do not change the genre in any of their stuff at all. You may be sure you know what the genre is, but your view is not set in stone. It is not our duty to declare what we think their genre is, it is instead our duty to show that it is disputed, and to show the links that would say it is a variety of different genres. Although you were only trying to do the right thing, please note that this is a very touchy subject, and there have been vandals who would change their genre even after we have told them why it should remain ambiguous, and they ended up getting banned; please do not become one of them. ≈ The Haunted Angel 19:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


Well... I've got a better idea... why we don't just put “melodic black metal”, “gothic metal” and “symphonic metal” in the genre thing? let me explain: I've been reading lots of articles about metal bands and non-metal bands, and most of them have more than two genres.
-------For example; Rolling Stones have “blues”, “rock”, “reggae”, “country”, etc... however, that doesn't mean that they play one song of each, but a mixture (I mean... taking this from one and that from other to form a cool combination...)
-------Same happens, for example with Children of Bodom... Take for example, “power metal” keyboards, “melodic death metal” riffs and vocals, “thrash metal” drumming, and for instance “neo-classical metal” guitar solos... Then we should not call Children of Bodom a “Neo-classical melodic death thrash power metal” band ((... I also think that long genre names sound stupid and too specific)) but a (perhaps) “metal” band with some characteristics of “melodic death metal”, “power metal”, “neoclassical metal” and etc... (and put in the genre space the three styles mentioned, wouldn't it?)
-------So... with Cradle of Filth, we should put as an opening sentence “Cradle of Filth is an extreme metal band formed by blah blah...” and in the genre space, simply put “melodic black metal”, “symphonic metal” and maybe “gothic metal” too. Then maybe put a debated genre section and explain the labelling problems.
-------After all, we should not complicate our lives with these labelling issue. I mean - if some reader wanting to know about Cradle of Filth (that never listened to it) wanted to know how people call their music style, probably after reading this genre thing that I already explained would know that the band takes a bit of one style and a bit of another one. Then, if he/she wants more details, could then search for more info in the debated genre section What do you think about it? I think it's the best way to solve it, not only with Cradle of Filth, but regarding many other bands that mash up elements from different styles. After all, I think that music is too varied and specially metal (too much sub-genres): it would be difficult to explain the music style in just 3 words... Wouldn't it?coco (talk) 03:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you miss the point; this has been discussed so many times in the past that now no matter what we call them aside from "extreme metal", it is POV. It is not our job to label Cradle one thing or another, but to show that they have been called these things over a period of time; it's POV to say that they are one thing or another, and if we add one genre that they've been called, we'd have to add them all. ≈ The Haunted Angel 19:38, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Order of the Dragon

What does the medieval order have to do with Cradle of Filth, nowhere in this article does it mention, is it a fanclub or something, it just shows a picture which claims to be based off of the medieval one (which its clearly not, the Order's symbol uses an Ouroborous dragon with no circle around it, no moon, its not even culturally the same kind of dragon from what I see from the Austrian Museum sketch). I'm deleting until you give a reason for the picture, and drop the "a slight adaptation of the medieval original." unless they actually have a source (OMYGOD yes, sources you lazy potatoes) from Cradle or their representitives saying its a modification of the original. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 09:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Thats alot better, although your source seems to be a vampire fansite, thats not a respectable source, thans not even an eastern European dragon, it looks alot more like a modern firebreathing British dragon, Slav dragons tend to be more like winged snakes or hydras and less lizard like. The picture here http://www.rodoslovlje.com/medieval_serbia/eng/history-dragon.htm , here http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa102203a.htm , here http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~emiller/dragon.html and here http://bp2.blogger.com/_8CgdlVIS6eA/Rhlb2FKjSFI/AAAAAAAAABk/ipZN8Y1Tigo/s1600-h/order_dragon.jpg (look carefully at the yellow circle in the red) are infact based off of the real Order of the Dragon symbol, as kept by the Austrian Museum I believe. Furthermore, your source should be from Cradle saying they based the modern symbol off of the Order of the Dragons, otherwise it is original research to say that. Your also still missing the point of this, this isn't a place to talk about how much you like Cradle or how much you know about them, your supposed to provide information to people who know nothing about Cradle of Filth, like me, actually write a sentence in the article that the Order of the Dragon is the name of their fanclub, when they did that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 01:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC) Yes, lazy potatoes, I figure what I really wanted to say would be offensive. Good article otherwise, a hell of alot better than the Order of the Dragon article, apparently Zulu theology has some relevence to Eastern European medieval Orders. I think I'll download Damnation and a Day later, before purchase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 03:58, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

You are an illegal downloader of music and I shall tell a policeman. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 19:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Roffle... ≈ The Haunted Angel 20:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Call your American police all you want, besides I usually buy what I download, if its worthwhile, too many videogames are $80 and not worth $20. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 10:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Save it for the judge, buddyboy. Your ass is going down for six to ten this time, for sure! Lieutenant Wurzel (talk) 11:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


Good luck tracking him down. User:Zaru —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.35.230 (talk) 21:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

What for, I'm not breaking any laws where I love, maybe you didn't get me calling you America, but I'm not. I buy stuff for because they deserve it, not for the law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 11:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Blimey, you can't make a joke round here, can you? Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 17:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Not one that involves me in jail, no. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 07:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Damnation Chart Position

Anyone know where Damnation and a Day stood on the top 200? It's not listed on the album page..


According to Rockdetector it got to number 44 in the UK and number 140 in the US. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 21:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)