Template talk:Country flag IOC alias FIN

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Finland competed 1912 as its own team and refused to carry the Russian flag, instead opting to carry their own unofficial Olympic flag. As the matter is explained at the official page of the Finnish Olympic Committee; "Russia opposed Finland’s special status in the IOC. The problem was highlighted by the flag controversy at the Olympic Games in Stockholm in 1912. In the parade of nations in the opening ceremony the Finnish team marched separately from the Russians behind its own name sign, carrying the flag of a Helsinki women’s gymnastics club." -84.169.116.117 16:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Please take a look at the photograph on page 441 of the 1912 Offical Report online here, and the text on page 452 (PDF page numbering, not source document numbering). You'll see that the Finnish team marched with no flag in the parade of nations (following Russia). Our convention in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Olympics is to use the official flag of each nation at the time of specific Games, and according to Flag of Finland, the current form was not used until May 1918. Andrwsc 16:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It is true that the current national flag was at the time under only unofficial usage, while the State of Finland (existing since the 1809 Diet of Porvoo) did not have an official flag at all (and the principal variant was the Lion flag, currently existing as the coat of arms). This was also exactly the reason why the flag of the Gymnastikföreningen för Fruntimmer i Helsingfors sports club was chosen. The flag was also not carried over the entire ceremony due to the Russian delegation's objections against the usage of an unofficial flag. After this it was chosen to not to carry a flag at all — this can be seen taking place in the mentioned official picture.

The Finnish team also did march following Russia, this is true. But under its own banner (through the entire ceremony) and by no means as a part of the Russian team, as can be seen in the official picture of that team before. Another thing worth of a notion, as a comparison, is the position of the Bohemian team. Although they did not win any medals, they do carry their own flag in the article. And they did march as a part of the Austrian delegation. -84.169.116.117 17:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course, it is true that Finland and Bohemia had distinct teams from their "parent" nations, and that is precisely why we have separate results pages for them. The official report notes this distinctiveness in a couple of ways - first, in the table on page 308 (PDF page 452), Finland and Bohemia are individually listed, albeit indented in the list. All results in the rest of the report are for "Finland" or "Bohemia". There is no dispute at all here. The only thing we are contesting is which flag to use. I do not think the current flag of Finland is appropriate for two reasons - it was not official until 1918, and it was not used at the Games. A similar situation exists for pages like Australia at the 1896 Summer Olympics. Andrwsc 17:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The flag issue has also been fought over in the Finnish Wikipedia. There no flag at all is used (1908 the Russian one is — no jingoism involved therefore), but the sports club flag mentioned. If this is not possible, I personally would support using the Olympic flag as an alternative option. Using the Russian flag I see as too contradictable minding the events that took place, without such background I probably would agree (like I do with certain British colonies and dominions). -84.169.116.117 18:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem with the Olympic Flag is that it wasn't created until 1913 and not used until the 1920 Games. I think the best alternative would be to find an image for the Gymnastikföreningen för Fruntimmer i Helsingfors sports club, since we have a source that states it was used. This approach (non-national flag) was used for South Africa at the 1992 Summer Olympics and New Zealand at the 1980 Summer Olympics, so we have Wikipedia precedent for this situation. Without that alternative flag, I think the "official" Russian flag should be in the infobox of Finland at the 1912 Summer Olympics, but the introductory text of that article should be expanded to describe the flag controversy. Andrwsc 19:23, 2 May 2007 (UTC)