Template talk:Country data Northern Ireland

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[edit] Incorrect flag

THis is not the Flag of Northern Ireland and should not be used as such.--Vintagekits 23:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

In the context of how this template is most often used (to render icons for sports teams and athletes), it most certainly is the correct flag. Look at the FIFA website for one confirmation. Andrwsc 00:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The use of this flag by any sporting body dosen't confer any legitimacy on it, it was the former flag of the Northern Ireland goverment which was disbanded in 1972 by the British government, therefore the flag has no legal standing.--padraig3uk 02:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it has to have any legal standing to be used in this context. Andrwsc 23:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Why dont we use the tricolour then as it is also used at sporting occasions. This hasnt been the flag of Northern Ireland since the 1970's.--Vintagekits 23:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The tricolour is used to refer to the Republic of Ireland national football team. Again, see the FIFA source. These are two different teams. Andrwsc 00:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Andrwsc, to use the UB and claim or confer it has legal standing because its used by a sports body is wrong, the flag has political implications, in Northern Ireland it os a symbol of Unionist oppression over nationalists.--padraig3uk 23:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, I don't even know what a "UB" is, and I'm not claiming any "legal standing" whatsoever (in fact, the reverse - I'm saying that "legal standing" is irrelevant). This flag is used by organizations such as FIFA. I've seen it on television next to Darren Clarke's name in international golf tournaments. When source material for sporting events use this flag to refer to Northern Ireland, then it is not unexpected that Wikipedia editors want to mirror that same notation for sports results pages. I don't even know who Unionists or nationalists are or what they want. Andrwsc 00:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Followup: here is another external reference that uses this flag in a current sporting context. Andrwsc 00:12, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
This template is linked to many articles not related to football or sport, it even links to the Northern Ireland Assembly election, 2007 article, therefore the template is used for political purposes and it POV.--padraig3uk 00:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, certainly the right thing to do would be to change the articles in which "political purposes" are involved, instead of changing every article that transcludes this template to display some confusing blue blob, would it not? Andrwsc 00:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
That is easier said then done, as in many cases the link is through other templates being linked to this one.--padraig3uk 01:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I found and read Northern Ireland flags issue and have a (slightly) better understanding of your concerns. I also figured out what the heck "UB" meant. Still, it seems clear to me that the image used on this template is widely understood and reasonably accepted in the sporting context, which appears to me to be the majority of articles that transclude this template. Therefore, I re-assert that the best course of action would be to look at individual articles and decide what to do rather than change this template to use the blue ink blot (which doesn't appear on the Flag of Northern Ireland at all). And as for the update, it actually is easier than I suggest, not more difficult, because if you make changes to templates that use the image (such as {{Northern Ireland elections}}), you can update many articles at the same time. Andrwsc 01:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
{{Northern Ireland elections}} as you suggest contains links to a number of other templates some of which that display the flag, these are protected and can't be edited. This is the same with other templates linked in the same manner.--padraig3uk 01:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
If I might help with a general clarification about page protection: Page protection is not meant to prevent changes to pages. You can request any change on any page, including templates, by adding {{editprotected}} to your request on the talk page or asking any admin directly to do the change (provided you can demonstrate consensus/no opposition for changing). Most protected templates are protected due to vandalism concerns – not to prevent regular changes. --Ligulem 12:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand. If you think that the flag is inappropriate for that set of articles, just remove the {{flagicon|Northern Ireland}} string from {{Northern Ireland elections}}. You don't need to change anything else. Andrwsc 01:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NI Flag issue

Getting back to this issue, alot of templates used on Northern Ireland articles use the template: NIR Flag of Northern Ireland Northern Ireland which links back to this template here, the flag used here is not the Northern Ireland flag, and hasn't been for the past 35yrs. In fact this flag can't even be flown from any N Ireland government building, the use of this flag is highly POV. The Main Northern Ireland article has now removed the flag from the infobox, and the debate in the talkpage there is to now use instead on infobox relating to Northern Ireland. In light of this it would be easier to make one change here instead of having to edit every infobox on the wiki, to either remove the flag completely or use the Image:NIShape.gif.--padraig3uk 07:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The Northern Ireland shape is not an official flag - nor has it been, ever, a flag to represent Northern Ireland.
The Flag of Northern Ireland is the correct flag of Northern Ireland and it is used to represent specifically Northern Ireland as a unique political entity, or 'sub-nation'. The government of Northern Ireland ceased to exist after it was suspended in 1972 - that is why the government of Northern Ireland doesn't use the flag of Northern Ireland: because there is no government of Northern Ireland. The flag however, still represents Northern Ireland. --Mal 09:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Interestingly you give a link to the Flag of Northern Ireland article - this pages states that the Ulster Banner IS NOT the flag of Northern Ireland and that Northern Ireland has no flag. --Vintagekits 09:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


This is what the British Government says about the Ulster Banner:
Lord Greaves asked Her Majesty's Government:
What legislation covers the definition of the form, shape and design, and any rules about the permitted use, of (a) the union flag; (b) the English flag (cross of St George); (c) the Scottish flag(St Andrew's saltire) (d) the Scottish royal lion flag (e) the Welsh flag (dragon); (f) the flag of Northern Ireland. [HL1099]
18 Jan 2007 : Column WA181
Lord Davies of Oldham: (a & b) There is no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the union flag or the English flag (St George's cross). There are no rules about the permitted use of the union flag or English flag (cross of St George) on non-government buildings, provided the flag is flown on a single vertical flagstaff and neither the flag nor the flagstaff display any advertisement additional to the design of the flag as explained under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992. Government departments are restricted to flying flags on 18 fixed days a year in compliance with rules issued by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which considers it improper to fly the union flag upside down and requires that the flag should not be defaced by text or symbols and should be treated with respect.
(c & d) There is also no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the Royal Arms of Scotland (here referred to as The Scottish royal lion flag) or the St Andrew's cross, but the design is firmly specified in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland. The Royal Arms of Scotland can only be used by the Sovereign or Her Great Lieutenants when acting in their official capacity. The Scottish flag(St Andrew's cross) may be flown by Scots and to represent Scotland on all occasions; however, under The Act of Lyon King of Arms Act 1672, cap. 47 individuals may not deface the flag by placing a symbol on top of the flag or use it in such a way that suggests it is his/her personal property.
(e) There is no specific legislation about the Welsh flag design or rules about permitted use.
(f) The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland. The Flags (NI) Order 2000 empowered the Secretary of State to make the Flags Regulations (NI) 2000, which governs when and where the union flag can be flown from government buildings in Northern Ireland on specified days. The legislation does not define the form, shape or design of the union flag. Flag flying from non-governmental buildings is unregulated.
For all flags, consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which requires flags to be treated with respect, not to be defaced by text or symbols or flown upside down. [1] --padraig3uk 23:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
That pretty much puts a nail in the coffin of Mal's argument. The Ulster Banner is in no way an official flag in Northern Ireland and the Union Flag does not solely represent Northern Ireland but rather an amalgam of England, Scotland, Wales and NI.--Vintagekits 09:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Variants

I would like the other proposed flags of NI in the Variants section, being:

old - current flag
seperatist - Image:Flag_of_the_Ulster_Nation.svg
ulster - Image:Flag of Ulster.svg
patrick - Image:Saint Patrick's flag for Northern Ireland.svg
proposed - Image:Proposed NI Flag.png
utv - Image:North flagproposal1111.JPG
alliance - Image:Alliance Northern Ireland flag.svg
union - Union Jack

I think until a final flag is chosen, this should give people the possibility to chose if they don't like the old, 1973 abolished, flag. This does not want to forestall the end of the current discussion, but merely make the template workable in that people not liking the old unionist flag can now chose one of the more neutral flags to display. --85.181.35.144 19:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't regard any of them choices as neutral, and I can't see any instance in which they would be used.--padraig3uk 19:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
If in your POV none of those flags are neutral save the one abolished 1973, that's absolutely your right, but I differ. The one abolished was abolished with reason and is not seen neutral by people. I can see instances where users would use other flags than the abolished one. In the Northern Ireland flags issue article, this is discussed. If wikipedia does not want to use flags that may be seen as not neutral, it would mean to replace the existing flag in the template with the Union Jack. Regards, -85.181.57.121 21:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
As much as I dislike the Union flag, at least it is the only official flag for use in Northern Ireland, and I would rather see it used in the template then a POV flag with no official status which the British government dosen't even recognise, and which can't be flown from any government building in Northern Ireland.--padraig3uk 22:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Which is absolutely what I am saying. As long as there is no resolution of the NI Flag dispute, there should be offered variants what flag could be used. You are aware that the geographical outline you proposed in April is very close to Image:Alliance Northern Ireland flag.svg so it is almost undistinguishable?
I put again forward the suggestion of incorporating the above variants into the template (I added the Union Jack)so that users may chose which one to use. --85.181.57.121 16:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I understand what your proposing but the problem as I see it is that, some editors will continue to use the old flag to promote a certain POV, as I can't see any of the alternatives proposed except the Union Flag, as being useful in templates.--padraig3uk 19:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
This is plainly wrong. The large majority of flag template transclusions is on sports results pages. Trust me on this — I have thousands of edits under Wikipedia:WikiProject Flag Template and Wikipedia:WikiProject Olympics work, so I've seen a lot. The flag currently shown here is the one used for Northern Ireland in those contexts. It is even endorsed by the Commonwealth Games Council for Northern Ireland (see this link). If you have a problem with individual transclusions of this template, then address it on those pages, but it would be improper to change this template and make hundreds of other transclusions incorrect. Andrwsc 21:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
However, I use the templates in other contexts, eg. European Parties; they are also used in biographies and other contexts. Besides, in Template:Country data Germany there are the Imperial Flags (Black-White-Red) and the Swastika Flag of the so-called "Third Empire" under variants; you will CERTAINLY NEVER see these flags in a current sports-related context. I can see that due to continuity issues, the deprecated flag can be argued to still be the "default" flag (until someone uses his bot to alter it to, say, "old" or "sports" variant). My point of allowing variants is still valid, and I see it even strengthened by Padraig's and your contributions to the discussion. --85.181.10.42 14:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
On this point, you are also wrong. Historical flags (current at the time) are frequently used for sports results from that era. See Germany at the 1908 Summer Olympics or Germany at the 1936 Summer Olympics for examples. Andrwsc 16:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
So you are saying the Template:Country data should only be used in sports-related articles? I deem this a waste of ressources, as the template is also handy in other contexts where nations are referenced. From my viewpoint, NIR is the only case where the official flag (Union Jack) diverges from the sports-related flag (abolished St. George's flag). If the template should only be used in sports-related contexts, this should be put into the country data sections more prominently. I also doubt the RSA (fascist Italian Socialist Republic) partook in its short existence in any sports event. --85.181.26.204 00:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Can you point out any situation were any of these variations - apart from the Union Flag and Ulster banner - could or would be used, because I fail to see any case for them.--padraig3uk 14:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
See below. I have suggested a compromise to a post from you earlier. I very well condensed my proposal down to four different flags; I myself included some flags for purposes I saw as NPOV-related and did not plan to use them as such, but I see that there is more consensus in leaving some flags out than in an all-inclusive approach. --85.181.26.204 00:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for edit

As the page is protected to prevent vandalism and POV edits; and as above, I explained why my proposal is neither vandalism nor POV.

So, I request now to edit the following variants into the template:

| flag alias-old = Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg
| flag alias-separatist = Image:Flag_of_the_Ulster_Nation.svg
| flag alias-ulster = Image:Flag of Ulster.svg
| flag alias-patrick = Image:Saint Patrick's flag for Northern Ireland.svg
| flag alias-proposed = Image:Proposed flag of Northern Ireland.svg
| flag alias-utv = Image:North flagproposal1111.JPG
| flag alias-alliance = Image:Alliance ni flag.png
| flag alias-union = Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg

Explanation:

  • union is apparently the only gouvernement-sanctioned flag as of now since 1973.
  • old is the flag used in sports events; and this variant should be used in sports-related contexts as it may cease to be the "default flag" if the discussion about the default flag turns out to be switched to the Union Jack. If the NI flag issue is solved, it can very well be changed back by a bot using the condition to only change articles under the sports cathegory.

So I ask an editor to please incorporate the obove variants into the Country Data Template. --85.181.10.42 14:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not think your request is appropriate. The whole point of these templates is to provide an easy-to-use, consistent, mechanism for rendering flag icon images. The template namespace, in general, is intended for multiple-use transclusions. These templates are not intended to be some sort of directory and/or substitute for an article like Flag of Northern Ireland.
Looking at your list of flags (and the pages they are transcluded on), I think a case could be made to add Template:Country data Ulster, plus Leinster, Munster, and Connacht, for the provincial flags. I have just done that. But some of your listed images are used a total of zero or one times in main article space (and none at icon size), so it is pointless to support them in the template namespace. Andrwsc 16:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
So you are in favour of a deprecation of the "variants"-tag in the Country data Template? To expand all "variant" sections in own "Country data"-templates like Template:Country data Weimar Republic, Template:Country data RSA Italy, Template:Country data Nazi Germany, Template:Country data Ancient Italy? I do not think this is appropriate and will find a majority.
I do not see where it hurts when variants not yet used are added, either: first, they can be deleted after six months if there is no usage then; second, I am very sure that at least the "union"-variant will replace the current default at least in all non-Comonwealth sports assoc articles soon. If you really did not find usage of the Union Jack as an icon and only one time in a main article, please check again. All pictures are taken from an article, so "zero" absolutely cannot be and has to be a mistake (I certainly did NOT "invent" any flags of Northern Ireland!).
I further do not think the usage of a Template:Country data Ulster appropriate, as Ulster right now is only a political name for Northern Ireland used by unionists.
--85.181.26.204 22:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm absolutely in favor of the "variants" mechanism — after all, I originally proposed and helped implement it! Check the history logs and the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Flag Template.
What I'm not in favor of is turning these templates into something excessively and unnecessarily complex. I repeat: there is no point in expanding this to include images that are not used in icon form to refer to Northern Ireland on any mainspace article. WP:NOHARM is not a valid reason for something to survive a deletion discussion, nor is it a reason to make your proposed changes. Specifically, here are my comments on the eight images you have listed:
Hope this helps, Andrwsc 23:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Just as a quick follow-up to myself: there is reason to create new country data templates when there is a main Wikipedia article associated with it. That's one reason why I created Template:Country data Ulster, since we have an article on Ulster. That also explains why Template:Country data Nazi Germany exists in addition to the Nazi variant of Template:Country data Germany. Quite a few WWII articles like the wikilink to point to the Nazi Germany article, so we needed a distinction between {{flag|Germany|Nazi}} and {{flag|Nazi Germany|name=Germany}}. The former renders as Flag of Germany Germany and the latter as Flag of Nazi Germany Germany. See the difference? Hope this helps again! Andrwsc 23:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I take your word that you are in favour of variants and helped create them and will not browse logs and discussions. If there is to be found any new aspects on the point you are trying to make, put it here; I am willing to edit Wikipedia, and I am willing to put forward suggestions which may unite your point ("Flags for FIFA") and Padraig's ("Only Official Flags"), but log and history browsing is not my favourite pass-time.
"Proposed NI Flag.png" has been replaced with "Image:Proposed flag of Northern Ireland.svg" since. If no article uses it now, it could as well be put forward for deletion. I updated my request. You see, I didn't even "invent" this flag.
I don't know what "WP:NOHARM" means and oppose strictly Wikipedia "abbreviationalism"; if it means "let the article live, it does not harm wikipedia", that is nice, but I do NOT see where it fits into the context of this discussion. I have proposed to put the variants on a six month trial period. Right now, many people in a non-sports and non-Commonwealth sports context seem to utilise the deprecated, inofficial flag; however, Padraig above stated that he uses a symbol equivalent to Image:Alliance ni flag.png in NI related articles.
"Hope this helps!" - No, it does not. "{{flag?|United Kingdom}} where ? is "" or "country"" links to United Kingdom. Here, the Union Jack as sole and only gouvernemental approved official flag of Northern Ireland shall point there. "See the difference?"
If you want a condensed approach, then here it is:
| flag alias-cgf = Image:Flag of Northern Ireland.svg
| flag alias-patrick = Image:Saint Patrick's flag for Northern Ireland.svg
| flag alias-map = Image:Alliance ni flag.png
| flag alias-union = Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg
alias-cgf: Your point is the abolished flag is still used in context with the CGF (Commonwealth Games Federation). Then it can be written as such.
alias-patrick: "Although nowhere near as common as the Ulster Banner, it can be regularly seen being displayed by supporters at Ulster rugby matches as a neutral unique flag to represent Northern Ireland." I have used this flag as an icon myself in one of the European Party articles when I reformatted them instead of reading logs and discussions and WP:ABBREV pages. I did this because I have objections to the POV-loading of the abolished (with the exception to CGF) NI flag. If you now found "appears in one article in main namespace, not as an icon", then somebody apparently changed it to the POV-loaded abolished (with the exception to the CGF)-flag which I did explicitly NOT use.
alias-map: "The Main Northern Ireland article has now removed the flag from the infobox, and the debate in the talkpage there is to now use instead on infobox relating to Northern Ireland. In light of this it would be easier to make one change here instead of having to edit every infobox on the wiki, to either remove the flag completely or use the Image:NIShape.gif.--padraig3uk 07:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)"
@Padreig: compare: and Image:Alliance ni flag.png. I think while saying the same, the "flagged" NI map looks aesthetically more satisfying than the shape that never was intended as an icon. Would this be a compromise you are willing to support?
alias-union: Talking about official flags (and, sorry, FIFA and CGF are not official gouvernemental organisations), the Union Jack is the one and only official flag of Northern Ireland; the default flag in the template should be replaced by it (I do not propose this until someone with a bot changed all flagicon-instances in sports-related articles with the cgf-variant). The point of the flag template "NIR" and "flagcountry" and "flag" templates is to provide a link to Northern Ireland, so "flag|United Kingdom|name=Northern Ireland" is not an option here. Instead of "{{flagicon|United Kingdom}} [[Northern Ireland]]", it is easier to write "{{flagcountry|Northern Ireland|union}}", Isn't it? This is, after all, why there are variants (or at least, making things easier is one of the things that "variants" can do).
I hope you find your points satisfyingly addressed now in this reduction of proposed variants. Perhaps this is now a compromise that everyone, i.e. me (Dingo), Andrew and Padraig, can live with. I am open for discussion of other objections, however.
"Hope that helps again!" --85.181.26.204 00:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
PS: I am used to project discussions in the form of: 1. somebody makes a suggestion; 2. the suggestion is either put to the test for a time, or objections are voiced in a matter-of-factly tone, 3. all involved parties look for a sustainable compromise. I understand that wikipedia discussions are more of the "persecutor/defendant"-style, and I surely am not on a crusade to evangelise wikipedia according to my visions. However, I would like all involved to consider whether the above style would not be advantageous to all in this special discussion; I don't think the usage of terms like "He invented it!", "Hope that helps again!" and "See the difference?" generally helps solving a problem. They surely do not concerning my person.
Please remain WP:CIVIL. (And if you abhor abbreviated wikilinks, you only need to click on it to see what it means.) "Hope this helps!" was a genuine wish, but since you find it offensive, I shall refrain from writing in a friendly manner. "See the difference?" was not intended to be incivil either - the wikilinks in those two examples are different, so I thought it was necessary to point out that there was a difference.
Some other points:
  1. The "abolished" flag is used in far more contexts than just the Commonwealth Games. I do not think it is an appropriate variant alias.
  2. Image:Proposed flag of Northern Ireland.svg is also not rendered on any mainspace article in icon form.
  3. These templates are not used for rendering map images.
  4. {{flagicon}} is by far the most common template used in this series, so {{flagicon|United Kingdom}} [[Northern Ireland]] is indeed a valid solution for individual articles that you want that to appear in.
Andrwsc 01:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I count 735 instances of this flag (bordered or unbordered) in the main article space, and the majority of them are sport related. 260 of those pages have "F.C." or "football" in the page name, and another 62 have "FIFA" or "UEFA" in the page name. Snooker and darts account for another 78 pages. About 40 pages have "Commonwealth" in the name. My last comment in this discussion is a point I have made repeatedly: it is illogical and destructive to change the default behaviour of this template for all transclusions, especially for a minority reason. It is more appropriate to change the appearance on specific pages to match what editors intend. Andrwsc 01:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for stopping to use terms that can be considered offensive. I think this will help greatly to have a good discussion.
Although you said you did no longer want to partake in this discussion, I will still answer you:
  1. The flag is not "abolished", but abolished, see Flag of Northern Ireland. There were reasons for that in the history of Northern Ireland. Padraig might elaborate this further.
  2. Image:Proposed flag of Northern Ireland.svg is not part of the condensed proposal I made above. Please take a look at it. I also wrote exactly why I kept the remaining flags in the proposal; with the possibility of Image:Alliance ni flag.png being replaced by Image:NIShape.gif (Image:Alliance ni flag.png or ) as this is exactly the symbol for Northern Ireland now used in wikipedia Padraig described above.
  3. They are. Flag of Cyprus Cyprus. The reasons why a map image seems to be considered the most neutral representation of a divided country with diverging political systems(cf. Korean Unification Flag) are diverse, and Padraig also referenced reasons specifically for Northern Ireland above.
  4. I never doubted {{flagicon|United Kingdom}} [[Northern Ireland]] to be a valid solution. I still say {{flagcountry|Northern Ireland|Union}} is an easier solution. Furthermore, "flagicon" may be "by far the most common template". flag and flagcountry still exist and are no deletion candidates, however, so it is still valid to use them and to want to use them. Apart from that, as an informatician, I consider the usage of a template for one country for another country dirty. If I mean United Kingdom, I shall use a template for the UK; if I mean Northern Ireland, a UK template is not appropriate. This is however Hypertext puritanism, and I would swallow it if it were the only reason.
To your last point: I explicitly said I do not want to alter the default behaviour, at least not until a bot changed all sports-related usages of the "flag"-templates to the appropriate variant. The numbers surely are impressive, but there still are articles outside sports that use or begin to use flag icons, most notably biographies and international organisations. That's why I do not want to alter the default behaviour, but I want variants added. And I really do not see your problem with that. Save for vandals editing the variants into sports-related articles - where the abolished flag is still the correct flag, at least when the CGF is concerned, variants do not alter the status quo in any form. (And you already showed how even without the variants the sports-related articles can be changed.)
I really think I have described why I want which modifications in this template. If something remains unclear, please write me. --85.181.26.204 04:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
union variant has been added. Use {{flag|Northern Ireland|union}} to render Flag of Northern Ireland Northern Ireland. This should be sufficient for all icon transclusions (outside the sporting world) that have been described. None of the other images previously mentioned are currently rendered in icon form in main article space, so there is no need for those to be added as variants. Andrwsc 20:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Andrwsc, thanks for adding that, is it possible to shorten that to {{Flag|NIR|union}} or add that to the NIR template as an variant as {{NIR|union}}.--padraig3uk 15:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, not exactly as you propose. The "NIR" country code can be used with {{flagcountry}} like this: {{flagcountry|NIR|union}} → Flag of Northern Ireland Northern Ireland. The flag template will work with the country code, but it will use "NIR" as the display string, like this: {{flag|NIR|union}} → Flag of Northern Ireland NIR.
As for the "shortcut" templates like {{NIR}}, they are all hardcoded to do a specific thing, and do not accept any template parameters. As a collective set, they lack the ability to specify flag variants, alternate display names, and even different icon sizes. Some editors advocate their usage for brevity and simplicity (see Wikipedia:Inline templates linking countries for a full directory), but to be honest, I'd rather deprecate the lot and use the flag template exclusively. I've seen multiple instances where editors felt it necessary to add comments to wiki markup to help explain obscure codes used for these templates. My response is why bother writing {{DZA}} <!-- Algeria --> when {{flag|Algeria}} is simpler!
But I digress — I think the short answer is that I think {{NIR}} is stuck the way it is, unless we 1) make it different from all the other templates in this series, or 2) make significant changes to the whole lot. Andrwsc 16:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply, the problem is most of the disputed templates use the {{NIR}} template - which we can't alter as its used on too many sports articles and templates - and when I or other editors try to edit these disputed templates to remove the flag or to use the Union Flag, we get reverted, it was even brought to mediation in one case here.--padraig3uk 17:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I think your best bet is to successfully argue for the removal of flag images altogether in instances like that, rather than changing the Northern Ireland flag and leaving the others alone. Despite my large amount of work on flag templates and my strong advocacy for their adoption in certain instances (e.g. Olympic and other sports results articles, military articles, etc.) I think there are far too many instances on Wikipedia where flags are used for decoration only. The Marilyn template seems to be an example of that. It would be nice to progress the Wikipedia:Don't overuse flags essay towards some specific policy guidelines... Andrwsc 18:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Irish alias

Resolved. A better system was found, so that aliases for demonyms such as "Northern Irish" aren't necessary or useful, and the new aliases deleted by consensus. — Komusou talk @ 18:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Topic: I created aliases "Northern Irish" and "Irish (Northern)".

The question below is copied from my talk page for better discussion here

I see you created a northern Irish template, can I ask you why, their is no such nationality, anyone from Northern Ireland is either Irish or British or both.--padraig 13:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

—

Hello. In a nutshell, it's not a template but a redirect that's needed to generate an alias parameter for use in {{Flag}} with data from Template:Country data Northern Ireland.

In details: I created a redirect to the existing countrydata template for Northern Ireland. (Actually two redirects, "Northern Irish" and "Irish (Northern)" to allow some choice). Creating such a redirect is needed in order to create/enable an alias in the parameters of the {{Flag}} templates. For instance we have the basic:

{{Flag|UK}} outputs Flag of the United Kingdom UK

But thanks to the alias/redirect at Template:Country data British we also have:

{{Flag|British}} outputs Flag of the United Kingdom British

So, on this model, I created/enabled an alias for "Irish", which can only redirect to the flag template for Republic of Ireland:

{{Flag|Ireland}} outputs Flag of Ireland Ireland
{{Flag|Irish}} outputs Flag of Ireland Irish

However, the badly-named countrydata project is actually a flagdata project for all manner of *flags*, including "countrydata" templates such as:

{{Flag|England}} outputs Flag of England England
{{Flag|Wales}} outputs Flag of Wales Wales
{{Flag|Scotland}} outputs Flag of Scotland Scotland
{{Flag|Northern Ireland}} outputs Flag of Northern Ireland Northern Ireland

So for them I similarly created aliases "English", "Welsh", "Scottish", plus "Northern Irish" and "Irish (Northern)".

Now the tricky part, and one reason I was working on this, is that people just keep on deleting "British" in infoboxes and such, and replace it with "English" or "Welsh" and such -- even though you're right they're not nationalities in the way the rest of the world understand this word. Having to constantly revert/edit "nationality" fields from "English" to "British" is a waste of time, so I'm thinking of trying to deter the problem with a dual thing such as:

Nationality: Flag of the United Kingdom British (Template:Country data English)
Nationality: Flag of the United Kingdom British (Template:Country data Welsh)
Nationality: Flag of the United Kingdom British (Template:Country data Scottish)
Nationality: Flag of the United Kingdom British (Template:Country data Northern Irish)
Nationality: Flag of the United Kingdom British (Template:Country data Irish (Northern))

Hence the clumsy aliases/redirects for the Northern Ireland flag: we can't use "Irish" and the Republic of Ireland flag for the case of British citizens from Northern Ireland. You can also see the essay at WP:FLAGCRUFT on that hot topic.

— Komusou talk @ 14:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Well the Ulster Banner is not a recognised flag for Northern Ireland as it is a former Banner of the Government of Northern Ireland between 1953-1972, this flag cease to officially exist when that government was abolished under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973, today the only official flag for Northern Ireland is the Union Flag so this should used instead for these, also under the Belfast Agreement Irish people born in Northern Ireland are not automatically British, the are entitled to regard themselves as either Irish, British or have duel Irish/British nationality. Your creation of these templates will only result in on-ending edit wars, as for example if someone tries to use these on Gerry Adams.--padraig 14:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Note that these interpretations are disputed Astrotrain 14:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
padraig: For controversial biographies, I suppose people will only agree to let it at
Nationality: Flag of the United Kingdom British
or
Nationality: Flag of Ireland Irish
without any more details. Actually I was firstly concerned with the much common problem of biographies endlessly switching between "British" and "English", so I created the "English" alias modeled on the "British" alias, for dual use as explained earlier above. That is, if we document " British (English) " we should have much less people endlessly trying to switch between the two, at least that's what I believe and would like to try out.
Then, once started, I did the same for all the others -- of course, it becomes problematic once you hit the Ireland templates. The way I see it:
  • It's offering a choice for biographies were people can agree on a dual thing, and it won't be used anyway on controversial biographies, not any more than a text label.
  • It doesn't make things worse, because people warring about that are already doing it in text, or using piped versions of the flag templates. Note that the aliases I created are just a shortcut, anybody can type {{Flag|UK|name=Irish}} or {{Flag|Ireland|name=British}} and he'll get " Flag of the United Kingdom Irish " or " Flag of Ireland British ".
I mean, I don't think that my adding aliases creates the problem, the problem already exists without the aliases. The aliases are just useful for good faith edits -- bad faith edits will always use the name= param without needing any alias. — Komusou talk @ 15:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
In addition to the issues described specifically for Northern Ireland, I think I should comment on the overall plan. Template:Country data British was specifically created for use with Template:Infobox Ambassador so that it would display "British Ambassador to..." instead of "United Kingdom Ambassador to...". See David Manning for the lone instance in which this is implemented. I don't think the idea of adding redirect aliases for nationalities is a good idea, especially since the sentiment at Wikipedia:Don't overuse flags is to remove that type of flag icon usage. Please reconsider whether you really want to work on these "Nationality" infoboxes if it will be removed (by policy) later. Thanks, Andrwsc 15:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Komusou, you seem to be missing the point with Flag of Ireland British the people I refered such as Gerry Adams are not British.--padraig 20:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Padraig, you would use the nationality with which that person has selected. So, for people that chose Irish only, it would be {{flag|Irish}}, those that chose British only would be {{flag|British}}, and those that chose both would be {{Flag|British}}<br>{{flag|Irish}} or {{flag|Irish}}<br>{{flag|British}}.--Bobblehead (rants) 20:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
That is where you will get edit wars, as some editors think everyone in Northern Ireland is British and refuse to accept this is not the case, same with the use of a defunct flag the Ulster banner this shouldn't be used for people from Northern Ireland as its not a flag recognised by either the British Government or the Northern Ireland Executive.--padraig 20:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, the new-improved version of my solution is to use "One citizenship, one flag". Meaning that only the UK gets a flag and not the parenthetical English/Northern Irish/etc. trailing part. Meaning that the new aliases wouldn't be needed after all, at least not for my plan. Also, an additional possible change would be to update the infoboxes from displaying "Nationality: British" to "National of: United Kingdom" or "Citizen of: United Kingdom", so that we use the name of the country instead of its demonym. In both cases, the aliases aren't needed any more, and there's no flag for Northern Ireland to be displayed anyway. Meaning that you have my blessing if you want to have the new alias deleted. (Details at FLAGCRUFT-Talk with proposal version "d2" in the table.) — Komusou talk @ 10:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I am going to take your blessing to speedy delete those extra aliases and revert the documentation changes to the main templates. Thanks! Andrwsc 16:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Andrwsc: I must have been unclear, I'm not working on creating any "Nationality infoboxes", I'm talking about how to fill the current nationality= field of various infoboxes, especially the biographical infoboxes. I have summarized an illustrated case study about the P. G. Wodehouse article, you can see it at the talk page for the FLAGCRUFT essay — Komusou talk @ 21:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Just to insert myself here as well, the intent of the nationality field is to reflect a person's citizenship not their sub-categorization within that citizenship. So for those born anywhere in the UK and where the designation of such is not divisive, Flag of the United Kingdom British is the only designation that should be used. --Bobblehead (rants) 21:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
No, I understand perfectly. My comment is that I think the nationality= usage in biographical infoboxes is a flawed idea, and WP:FLAG doesn't quite advise against not using flags there, but certainly recommends not using flags for birth and death locations. It also states that nationality= is not always non-controversial, so editors should beware. Based on this, my concern is that you're making it more "acceptable" for editors to start using these aliases freely. I'm also concerned that you've only addressed Britain and Ireland. Are you planning to create hundreds of more aliases for every other country? (e.g. "Swiss", "Dutch", "French", "Djiboutian", "Paraguayan", ...) Lord, I hope not. And I would discourage anybody else from thinking this would be a good thing to do! Andrwsc 21:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
You're right that it would lead, eventually, to the creation of a demonym alias for almost each countrydata template. But as told above and at FLAGCRUFT, a better solution would be a guideline to replace "Nationality: British" to "National of: United Kingdom" or "Citizen of: United Kingdom" so that neither an alias nor a name= is needed. It would even be more useful for many readers, who may know a country name (Netherlands) better than its demonym (Dutch). (Details at FLAGCRUFT-Talk...) — Komusou talk @ 10:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I'm glad you agree! I've seen some articles with demonyms in the article title, and they are often confusing to say the least. Not every nationality has a widely recognized name. I remember a discussion about national team articles (i.e. should it be Germany national football team or German national football team?) and once people saw the implications of adopting the latter naming system for all teams — such as Sammarinese national football team for San Marino — that idea was dropped in a hurry. Andrwsc 16:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
padraig: I must have been unclear (bis :-)), the "Flag|Ireland|name=British" thing was a joke intended to show that the aliases I created aren't needed at all for those who'd want to abuse the flag system, they can just already combine any flag and any nationality with the name= param, so my creating the aliases is harmless in itself with that respect. As for Gerry Adams, I guess that if the nationality= field of his infobox was enabled, he would still benefit from the shortcut {{Flag|Irish}} instead of having to type {{Flag|Ireland|name=Irish}} in order to get Flag of Ireland Irish. If the editors of Gerry Adams prefer to disable this field on such a hot article that's understandable, but for most articles there is no such restriction and the aliases would be handy; as for the specific alias for "Northern Irish", it'll be like it is today: on articles where editors got a consensus for displaying a text such as "Nationality: British (Northern Irish)" then they'll have the possibility of chosing by consensus one variant among such, including using the generic alias:
Nationality: British
Nationality: British (Irish)
Nationality: British (Northern Irish)
Nationality: Flag of the United Kingdom British
Nationality: Flag of the United Kingdom British (Irish)
Nationality: Flag of the United Kingdom British (Northern Irish)
Nationality: Flag of the United Kingdom British (Template:Country data Northern Irish)
And on articles where too much warring has led to disabling the nationality= field, then they won't have any flag to add anyway. As I see it, the aliases don't create additional trouble, because the root problem is about which text labels to use or not.
It's all a bit abstract, isn't it? Let's take a real case about someone I know about:
* Our current article about Garth Ennis has a bio infobox that says "Nationality: Northern Irish". This is wrong because it should say "British", the Wikipedia rules about that are clear.
* Yeah, but if we put "British" there, this article will be switched back and forth between the two names every other week or month, which is a problem and a waste of time; we should try to be proactive and do better than.
* Against that problem, I propose to try and write there "Nationality: British (Northern Irish)", which is the main point I want to push -- I find the little flags useful there, but I could live without if a project-wide consensus decided on a policy to ban them.
* Now my second point is, in a relatively uncontroversial article where editors agreed to write "British (Northern Irish)", about adding the flag templates, which are currently accepted usage in tables and infoboxes. In order to add flags to Garth Ennis, we would normally code:
{{nowrap|{{Flag|UK|name=British}} ({{Flag|Northern Ireland|name=Northern Irish}})}}
Nationality: Flag of the United Kingdom British (Flag of Northern Ireland Northern Irish)
I have merely made aliases allowing to reduce the above to shortcuts:
{{nowrap|{{Flag|British}} ({{Flag|Northern Irish}})}}
Nationality: Flag of the United Kingdom British (Template:Country data Northern Irish)
* That's just more convenient. That's what I said above, my new alias isn't allowing something that would have been impossible before, it's just a shortcut for doing something that always was possible. If there's no consensus on an article for doing it, the alias won't make it any easier than it is today using the name= param. If there are edit wars, they'll be about the text labels to put anyway, even if flags were banned. The flags are just on top of whatever "Nationality" has been decided by the editors, and the "Northern Irish" alias is just completing the series for that.
— Komusou talk @ 21:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
(EC)Well, if it's too divisive, it is always an option to not not use the nationality field in the infobox and leave it for the article to explain their nationality. But then, I don't see the point of using Template:Country data English, Template:Country data Welsh, Template:Country data Scottish, or Template:Country data Northern Irish as they aren't official designations of citizenship. Of course, that could be a function of me being from the US. --Bobblehead (rants) 21:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Answered and explained at FLAGCRUFT-Talk... — Komusou talk @ 10:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed change

I would like to change the alt attribute of this template. In most browsers, when you mouse-over the image, you will see "Flag of Northern Ireland", and I think it is preferable to see "Ulster Banner" instead. I'm also expecting that someday the image file itself will be changed (e.g. to Image:Ulster Banner.svg on Commons), but that is a different issue. If I change the alt attribute now, it would also read "Ulster Banner" with the union and assembly flag variants, which is clearly incorrect. Therefore, I would like to propose the removal of those two flag variants. After the big debate a few months ago that led to their inclusion, I note that the union variant appears to be completely unused, and the assembly variant is only used in two places (one template, one article). Comments requested before I do anything. Andrwsc (talk) 21:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no real evidence of the name Ulster Banner being used outwith Wikipedia- Red Hand Flag is more common for example. Perhaps Unofficial Flag of Northern Ireland would be better (per Britannica and World Flag Databse)? Astrotrain (talk) 22:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)