Template talk:Country data Ireland

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[edit] Inappropriate use of template

This template is being used for sports teams which represent the whole island, eg. at FIBA Europe. This is not appropriate, and a template using Image:Four Provinces Flag.svg should be created for cricket, basketball, rugby, curling, hockey etc where an all-Ireland team takes part. --Mais oui! 18:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted addition of alias-1753 and alias-All-Ireland

I've reverted [1]. These parameters are not implemented and thus ignored by the front end templates (flagicon, flagcountry). As such it doesn't make sense to add these. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Flag Template for a central description/discussion-page of the flag templates system. --Ligulem 07:53, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Moved from my talk:
Well, in that case, how do we get a template that can be used with all-Ireland sports teams? Not only do we need an all-Ireland flag (the four provinces one which you applied is fine), but it is just plain daft to then have the accompanying link point to the incorrect "Republic of Ireland" article. Those teams most certainly do not represent the Republic, but the entire island. Solution? I had asked on the Talk page, but no-one replied. --Mais oui! 07:52, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I can only comment about the technical side of the flag templates – otherwise I'm not interested. If you want to have a different article link (parameter "alias") then I currently see no other way than creating a separate country data template (template:country data Ireland-All or whatever name you see fit). We could then see later if there is a clean way to merge this or not. --Ligulem 08:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ireland

Well, in that case, how do we get a template that can be used with all-Ireland sports teams? Not only do we need an all-Ireland flag (the four provinces one which you applied is fine), but it is just plain daft to then have the accompanying link point to the incorrect "Republic of Ireland" article. Those teams most certainly do not represent the Republic, but the entire island. Solution? I had asked on the Talk page, but no-one replied. --Mais oui! 07:52, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

And linking to the "Republic of Ireland" is even more daft for the St Patrick's Cross template. The Republic did not come into existence until 1937! (Or 1922 if you are less pedantic.) Long after the dates for which that template is useful. --Mais oui! 08:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Pardon me for intruding, but I happened to be looking at how to merge the Ireland flag templates today too. I think what we need are two distinct templates: Template:Country data Ireland and Template:Country data Republic of Ireland. (Currently, the latter is a redirect to the former.) The former would be used to render flags with wikilinks to Ireland (i.e. representing the whole island) and the latter would be used to render flags with wikilinks to Republic of Ireland (i.e. the nation). I could even see a use for Template:Country data Kingdom of Ireland that links to Kingdom of Ireland. I think this would solve the problems you describe above. Andrwsc 08:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Solution

Ok, I have made some changes, so here are some sample test calls:

This links to Republic of Ireland
  • {{flagcountry|Republic of Ireland}} → Flag of Ireland Ireland
This links to Kingdom of Ireland
  • {{flagcountry|Kingdom of Ireland}} → Flag of Kingdom of Ireland Ireland
These link to Ireland
  • {{flagcountry|Ireland}} → Flag of Ireland Ireland
  • {{flagcountry|Ireland|1753}} → Flag of Ireland Ireland
  • {{flagcountry|Ireland|4prov}} → Flag of Ireland Ireland
  • {{flagcountry|Ireland|rugby}} → Flag of Ireland Ireland

Right now, Template:Country data IRL redirects to Template:Country data Ireland, so you could also use "IRL" instead of "Ireland" in those last four examples.

Of course, if you use {{flagicon}} only, then it doesn't matter which of these you use to get the flag you want.

Does this address all concerns? Andrwsc 08:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Most of the calls made to this template should be linked to the country article, i.e., Republic of Ireland. So I've made the change. I propose that those that should be linked to the island article, i.e., Ireland, use Template:Country data Ireland (island). Chanheigeorge 03:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Small nagging point. The Cross of St. Patrick was never a flag for the Kingdom of Ireland (Ireland's first flag was the Union flag). The Kingdom did have a coat of arms though. Could these be rendered as a banner (rendering as a shield would look silly)? The current presidental standard will do, but the saltire, as in the current setup, is quite incorrect. --sony-youthpléigh 22:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm working on these templates now, and Template:Country data Kingdom of Ireland is still unused, so it will probably be deleted. Andrwsc 22:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Cool. I made the change. I wouldn't delete the template. Speaking personally, I never heard of the KoI attribute and just came across it while browsing. There lost of KoI stuff that use the Saltire, even for events long before 1783 (is it a typo that 1753 is given as the date here?), a dedicated tamplate (with the right colours), would help sort that out. Thanks for the great work. --sony-youthpléigh 22:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alias

The alias value, "Republic of Ireland", seems incorrect. Surely this is for the island of Ireland, and {{Country data Republic of Ireland}} is for the republic? Okay if I change this? It seems Sony-youth broke this on 2007-07-22... --StuartBrady (Talk) 23:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Scroll down to the bottom of the documentation and all is explained. The template actually uses a conditional for the alias value, so it is Ireland for all invocations that use a flag variant, and Republic of Ireland only if no variant is given. This is an unusual situation, but handles the common usage of {{flag|Ireland}} found in hundreds of articles, which we want to link to the nation article and not the island article. Hope this helps, Andrwsc 03:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah, okay. That makes a little more sense. What bothered me was that {{flag|IRE}} and {{ru|IRE}} were not consistent. I suppose if I wanted the island of Ireland, I'd use {{flag|IRE|4prov}}, or another variant. --StuartBrady (Talk) 11:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, there are some "anomolies" about this situation. One in particular is the use of country codes. "IRL" is the ISO/IOC/FIFA code for the Republic of Ireland, and therefore Template:Country data IRL is a redirect to Template:Country data Republic of Ireland. But there is no standard, unique code for all-Ireland teams, so I have been using the non-standard "IRE" for that purpose, especially with Template:cr, Template:fh, Template:ru, and even Template:fb to distinguish the old IFA team (that represented the whole island) before the split into NIR and IRL about 80 years ago. This works well, but may not be 100% intuitive, hence the need for additional documentation. Andrwsc 15:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rugby union flag

This was voted on some time ago and the popular decision was that a generic shamrock symbol should be used to represent Ireland in place of a national flag.

I don't think this should have been altered without consultation. It was discussed on the rugby union wikiproject and the resounding opinion was that the IRFU flag should not be used as it is probably a copyright violation.

I don't think the argument that it is not an identical copy or that the component parts are common domain to hold water. I have put the image up for deletion accordingly. If it is decided that the image does not break copyright then we can discuss which symbol we should use. Until then I think it best not to use a symbol which has dubious copyright status.GordyB 22:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Consensus can change. Nevertheless, I have protected the template until your nomination at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images/2007 September 27 is resolved, hopefully with real legal opinion. This edit-warring on a high-use template is harmful, as you all well know. Andrwsc 22:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Consensus can change but there has been absolutely no consensus on change at all. It was discussed and nobody but the proposer wanted it. In addition whilst edit wars aren't a good thing, we should be erring on the side of caution here; at best the image is of dubious status. People should not revert to it until it has been declared "safe".GordyB 22:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The disputed image was deleted some time ago. AFAIK it is is also up for deletion on Wiki Commons as well. IMO there is no reason for this page to be protected any more.GordyB (talk) 15:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not currently protected because of content dispute. Several weeks ago, ALL country data templates were protected to prevent vandalism, as they are high-use. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 16:52, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ulster Banner for all-Ireland IFA team

Leading from my post on Andrwsc‎ talk page, I've taken a quick look around for a source to support that the St. Patrick's Saltire was the flag used by the IFA team before the 'split' in 1953, rather than the Ulster Banner. I can't find any right now, but if an logical argument is acceptable then it is because the Ulster Banner itself did not exist until (coincidentally) 1953, so it's use before then would be require quite an amount of foresight on behalf of the IFA.

The IRFU (rugby) had a similar struggle between St. Patrick's Saltire and the tricolour. Deciding to go with a neutral flag instead. --sony-youthpléigh 23:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. —StuartBrady (Talk) 23:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I've already made the change back to the saltire, and I think your arguments are as logical as any! Andrwsc 00:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I hadn't seen this thread, I started a similar discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Ireland on this same topic, while the argument surrounding the Ulster banner is logical, the one relating to the Soltaire is not! The MOS:FLAGS gives an overview of flags, and prohibits applying a flag were a need is perceived, but there is no relevant flag, I have been looking round for the IFA using a flag other than the Ulster Banner or the Union flag, but have been unable to find any. Fasach Nua (talk) 16:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Olympics

Is it possible to get a template for Olympic Council of Ireland, there are many olympic sports which are organised on an all Ireland basis. I was looking at the Wayne McCullough article, and I think it would be more appropriate to say he represented the Olympic Council of Ireland rather than to say he represented the Republic. Fasach Nua (talk) 17:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are requesting here, and I'm also not sure that this is the right talk page for it either. Can you elaborate what you want to see?
Also, the Olympic articles use an entirely different set of flag templates. For example, if you look at Athletics at the 2004 Summer Olympics - Women's 10000 metres, the flag icon and wikilink next to Marie Davenport's name (14th place) are generated from {{flagIOCathlete}}. Notice that the wikilink points to Ireland at the 2004 Summer Olympics, not to Republic of Ireland. This is probably close to what you are thinking of, as that article mentions the Olympic Council of Ireland (in the infobox, at least). With respect to Wayne McCullough, I'd suggest replacing {{IRL}} in the medal box with {{flagIOC|IRL}}, which will have the same visual appearance but will wikilink to Ireland at the Olympics. Is that what you are thinking of?
The other comment worth mentioning here is that Wikipedia:WikiProject Olympics members have not completely installed the flagIOC set of templates on all past results pages, so if you reach Boxing at the 1992 Summer Olympics via the Wayne McCullough medal box, you won't be able to reach Ireland at the 1992 Summer Olympics from the bantamweight results, because we haven't got around to it yet. Andrwsc (talk) 18:11, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, the Olympic team is actually the team of the ROI not the whole island though many Northern Irishmen do opt to represent Ireland. The GB team is actually the team of the UK. I don't see why the tricolour couldn't be used.GordyB (talk) 23:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no doubt whatsoever that the tricolour should be used for every Olympic result for the Ireland ("IRL") team, and the Union Flag for every single "GBR" instance. I don't think that is in dispute, nor should it be. Most of the official reports show photographs of each team marching in the opening ceremonies, so there is easily verifiable sources to demonstrate that. I am not completely certain of Fasach Nua's request, but my interpretation was that the wikilink to Republic of Ireland (via Template:IRL) in the Wayne McCullough article was problematic, which is why I suggested using an existing template to link to Ireland at the Olympics, which should solve the problem. There is no doubt whatsoever that McCullough competed under the tricolour flag in 1992. Andrwsc (talk) 00:33, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Many sports, such as boxing are organised on an All-Ireland basis. When these compete in the Olympics they compete under the tricolour.--Vintagekits (talk) 00:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
That is near perfect interpretation Andrwsc Fasach Nua (talk) 10:56, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irish Naval Service

{{editprotected}} Can someone please add:

| link alias-naval = Irish Naval Service

in order to link to Irish Naval Service. — Bellhalla (talk) 17:07, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Declined — please see Template:Country data Republic of Ireland for that. You can use {{navy|Republic of Ireland}} for Naval flag of Republic of Ireland Irish Naval Service (or {{navy|IRL}} for a shortcut), but this template is intended to be used for all-island instances, so it is inappropriate to add that link here. Thanks — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, my mistake then. I came a cross a use of {{navy|Ireland}} and did not realize that should have been {{navy|Republic of Ireland}} instead. — Bellhalla (talk) 19:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I corrected the instance mentioned above, and also created a redirect from Ireland Navy to Irish Naval Service in case of the use of this template instead of the appropriate one in the future — Bellhalla (talk) 19:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, interesting. Note that the flag will also be wrong if {{navy|Ireland}} is used. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but at least it will have a non-red link... — Bellhalla (talk)