Talk:Coup d'état

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[edit] Coup in the United States

I am curious why this coup is not mentioned on this page or on the big list of coups. When the delegates met in Philadelphia for the Constitutional Convention of 1787, they were instructed by Congress to revise the Articles of Confederation. However, there were so many revisions necessary that they ended up throwing out the AoC and starting a brand new Constitution. This was a peaceful overthrow of the government, thus constituting a coup d'état. I would just add the US to the list of coups, but I'm almost positive it would be removed by someone who doesn't know the whole story.


This simply was not a coup, as the replacement of the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution was done via the normal political process. 64.72.137.241 (talk) 21:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] US 2000

Added content onto the earlier disc. below for context. chacun pour soi y'all! 19:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A definition and etymology

The American Heritage Dictionary has a definition of coup d’état “as the sudden overthrow of a government by a usually small group of persons in or previously in position of authority.” This definition does not include two very important features of all coups d’état, the fact that they are always unconstitutional, and very often carried on violently. So I would prefer a definition including those features. It could read as follows: “the sudden unconstitutional and forcible overthrow of a legitimate government by usually a small group of persons currently or previously in positions of authority.”

By extension an analogous expression: “boardroom coup” is currently used to denote the unfriendly takeover of a corporation by seizing the control of the board of directors.

This kind of political action is not new. Chinese politics was plagued by it well before our own era. Darius became the Persian king by means of a coup d’état. It is famous the complot to overthrow Julius Caesar in which the only possible way to remove him from office was by killing him. What is relatively new is the expression to refer to it. According to the Oxford Dictionary, in 1646 Howell first used coup d’état in France in his book Lewis XIII, Life of Richelieu. In England, Thompson first used it in 1811 by commenting about the coup d’état staged in 1799 by Napoleon Bonaparte to overthrow the Revolutionary Directory composed of members of the civil society and became Consul.

This is a very interesting example of a political action that does not have an English word to refer to it and because of it, English speaking writers have borrowed either “Coup d’état,” the French expression or the German word, “Putsch.”

According to Prof. Thomas Childers of the University of Pennsylvania the lack of a word to denote a sudden unconstitutional change of government derives from the political institutions from England. Although France’s and Germany’s history are liberally colored by this type of political events, the history of England is not. In England, the last coup d’état was the 1688 Glorious Revolution in which William of Orange, together with a group of parliamentarians, overthrew James II, the last Roman Catholic English ruler and facilitated the establishing of a modern parliamentary democracy. That happened more than three hundred years ago, it seems, that in England, this is an action that occurs very rarely and for which there has not been the need to create a word.

[edit] Castro

I've added him to the list of current servers who came to power via a coup; anyone know how we could have forgotten the longest-serving coup-empowered leader in the world? (I'm just being overly critical; you don't necessarily have to respond.) Deltabeignet 03:55, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Noted. If this is flippant, I apologise: it's not hard to forget the man, but never what he did or why. :) E Pluribus Anthony 03:58, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
He came to power through a coup or a revolution? I rather think it was a revolution. What do you think? José San Martin 22:44, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Without doubt, that was a revolution, therefore it should be deleted. (can you say that 90% of the population is a small or minority group?? - and at that time it _was_ 90% at least). M Becks 22:44, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I removed Fidel Castro from the list of current servers who came to power via a coup. As stated at the start of the article, a coup "is the sudden overthrow of a government through unconstitutional means by a part of the state establishment, that mostly replaces just the top power figures." Castros rise to power does not qualify for a coup in this definition. First of all he came to power through a civil war lasting for about 3 years. Thats no sudden overthrow of government. Also, Fidel Castro was not a part of the state establishment, but the head of a rebel army.
Not about Fidel Castro, but I think you can't say its either a coup or a revolution. A coup can be the start of a revolution (as in Libya with Ghadaffi), as well as the outcome of a victory for a rebel force or popular revolt not necessarily turns into a revolution. (What has really changed with the so called "revolution" in Ukraine? Today the President was the leader of the "revolution", while the serving prime minister was the opponent of the "revolution". There does not seem to be enough political change to call it a revolution.) A revolution says something about the difference in politics between the old and new regime. It does not say anything about how the new regime came to power. [Zikan]

Agreeing with Zikan I am removing Castro. By the definition in the first line of the article "sudden overthrow of a government through unconstitutional means by a part of the state establishment " Castro coming to power was a revolution not a coup as he was not by any means "part of the state establishment" Accuracy and Consistency suggests he should be in alist of leaders who came to power by violent means instead. --Gramscis cousin 07:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Venezuela

One form of military intervention which some regard as a coup d'etat is the use of the threat of military force to remove a particularly unpopular leader. This has occurred...in Venuzeula in 2002

Removed the bit about Venezuela. It's far from obvious that the 2002 Venezuela coup was "to remove a particularly unpopular leader". Chavez was restored to power based largely on spontaneous popular uprisings, of the sort that don't usually occur for "particularly unpopular leader"s.

-- I already did. I changed it to speak of the even larger protests by his supporters who helped put him back in office. A. It has NEVER been proven that he was corrupt and B. he has been popularly elected 3 times with overwhelming majorities which have been found to be fair by foreign observers.


I don't think much of Bush and his election and I don't think much of the Hayes-Tilden affair in 1876 but neither one was a coup d'etat. It is tendentious and seriously detracts from understanding what a coup d'etat is to clutter this article up up this way. The JFK election in 1960 had its fishy elements too, but it wasn't a coup d'etat either. Ortolan88 18:17 Sep 2, 2002 (PDT)

Shouldn't this page move to "Coup d'état" (accent on the e) ? When this question is settled, we can update the many links that point to Coup. --FvdP 21:58 Oct 17, 2002 (UTC)

Because I'm a sucker for diacritics and these straight-from-French borrowings tend to keep them more often than more nativized words, I went ahead and moved it. Personally, I see little reason for Coup not to just redirect here. --Brion 22:04 Oct 17, 2002 (UTC)
OK. I redirected all links to coup to coup d'état. I did not touch the links to coup d'etat yet apart the one from coup (I'm tired, time to stop), but that's less urgent (redirection will do for now). FvdP 23:04 Oct 17, 2002 (UTC)

I see little reason for Coup not to just redirect here: I'm not sure because

  • there are other meanings to "Coup" (contract bridge, The Coup), that make a redirect to "coup d'état" less desirable
  • we could move back the article from "coup d'état" to "coup", but then we would face the possibility that someone will want to move it back to "coup d'é/etat" like JHK did.
  • OTOH, I sympathetize with all non-french-speaking people who now have to make links to coup d'état. Copy-paste may help them. And we may monitor coup for incoming links.

FvdP 20:33 Oct 18, 2002 (UTC)

Don't you have the "Alt Gr" ket to the right of your space bar? -- Sam
I don't need "Alt Gr" to type "é"... and other people may be unable to type "é" even though they have "Alt Gr" ! What they should try under Windows is: Alt 0233 for é and Alt 0201 for É (hold the Alt key down until you have pressed the last digit). --FvdP

Hello-- i would like to fight for the facts. in re:==United States 2000== I'll be happy to bring out the proof necessary to confirm this evaluation. If Americans can be somehow exceptional enough to believe that political rules, history and experience, do NOT apply to this current situation, then they should get a job with Scott McClellan and the rest of the 'unreality-based' community in SW DC as they continue to spend half the budget on war/development/oil/security. The one request I make is that there be an actual un-involved party making any decision regarding these minor changes. So no American I suppose, but I refuse to argue with someone whose ability to adhere to the logic of dialectic is impaired.chacun pour soi y'all! 19:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed passage after 24-hour warning. Here it is if anyone wants to fight for it.

  • 2000: Potential non-military coup in United States of America. See (controversial election)
    Whether this is to be considered a coup is up to debate. There may have been illegalities in the voting process, in which case it could be.

If it is "up to debate", "could be", "to be considered", it belongs on the talk page, not the article. For my money, it is just plain dirty politics and nothing like a coup. If we had had a coup, we'd know it. Ortolan88

To the contrary: the most successful coups, and the only kind that would succeed (have succeeded) in the US, are invisible coups, secret coups, that involve the communications media to an extent that creates the illusion that no coup has occurred. Perhaps this is only possible in the modern era of media-addicted populace and mega-corporate-media-merger empire. 70.107.19.94 14:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

In conjunction with the reference to Luttwak's work, it seems that more detail about non-violent coups is indeed in order. Ideas like "If we had a coup, we'd know it" are, in fact, part of what can make a non-violent coup successful. Illegally taking power often depends on convincing enough of the populace that nothing untoward happened.

Also, we might mention the views of those who feel that the US Supreme court prevented a coup d'etat by the Democratic Party. By putting to an end the strategy of endlessly recounting votes until they got the Democratic Party got result they wanted, the US Supreme Court saved democracy and defended the Constitution. Well, this is one POV. If we're going to include the POV that the Bush victory was a coup d'etat, we should alse include the POV that the attempt to declare a Gore victory was a coup attempt.

Really, though, the 2000 US presidential election was compared to a coup d'etat by those who didn't like the results. Gore conceded, remember? He didn't have to. --Ed Poor

Well, Gore conceded, but that's because he's a loser (said the still angry Democrat). I believe that Gore got everything he deserved, which was nothing, but that he saved the republic, constitution, etc., by conceding while the supreme court poisoned the well with a tendentious ill-considered, highly political opinion that will surely come back to haunt the country. But it wasn't a coup d'etat. Ortolan88 00:08 Dec 10, 2002 (UTC)
It's been described as a coup by British journalists (and also by Gore Vidal). We primitive non-American's dont have CNN, we're still on town criers, but from my personal POV it went like this: one day they were still counting the votes, the next day Bush & his team had moved into the White House and announcing that they had won. Sounded like a coup to me. -- Tarquin 17:31 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)

The U.S. election of 2000 was a coup d'etat. There was massive election fraud before election day. The Florida Secretary of State, who has a constitutional obligation to be neutral, served as the head of the Bush campaign in Florida, and arranged for a private corporation to illegally remove about 50,000 voters, mostly poor black Democrats, from the roles on the theory that their names were similar to those of convicted felons. No other state has used private corporations for the purposes of removing voters from the rolls. There was massive election fraud on election day, including jamming the telephone lines. There was massive fraud after election day, including military ballots submitted after the polls closed. Finally, many ballots were not counted even once, and a hand recount of the entire state of Florida puts Gore over the top. Gore won the election. Bush stole it. It was a coup d'etat. This should be in the Wikipedia article. All of this is in the factual record and is beyond honest debate. Anomalocaris 16:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The US Supreme Court had NO authority or Constitutional right to interfear in a Local Election. If thats not a coup, then what is it? MagnumSerpentine9-17-06
i am trying to do this correctly. i have edited for readability and facts. you can argue party lines all you want but facts is facts and propaganda wears more guises than madonna ...
[[chacun pour soi y'all! 19:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)]]

"It is different from a revolution, which is staged by a larger group and radically changes the political system. " IMHO a coup d'état can also be done to radically changes the political system.

I guess the "larger groups" is what makes the difference. And the fact that a revolution changes the system almost by definition, while a coup d'etat doesn't necessarily change it. (But indeed can change it, e.g. democratical systems overthrown by the military.) -FvdP
I think revolutions are perceived as something that is the will of the populace -- a coup is often engineered by a small minority. There could also be an element of freedom fighter / terrorist in this -- Tarquin 16:16 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)
Strictly speaking a revolution is a movement aimed "to radically changes the political system." Most of the revolutions involve people's mobilization but in theory this isn't necessary.
Ericd
And a coup d'état can also aim at changing the system. So there is overlap between the two concepts ? FvdP
(pondering...) If a revolution "radically changes the political system", then isa coup d'etat simply a sudden (possibly aggressive) change of leadership? -- Tarquin 17:17 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)
I believe a coup d'état involve some forme of conspiracy and generally the use of force, or at least the threat to use it. (Napoleon made a coup d'état without really using force). A lot people said than Thomas Sankara called revolution a coup d'état he answered than revolution was referring his policy and not the way he became president. During last presidential capaign in France the Troskyist claimed they wanted to achieve a revolutionby democratic suffrage.
Ericd
(pondering, too...) But a revolution too can involve conspiracy and force. And a coup d'état can change the system (e.g. Chile 1973.) I vote for the overlap: concepts are fuzzy and there's no wonder no one can capture the full reality. Perhaps a coup d'état is about "how it happens": anything that is not legal according to the rules of the previous system; and happens suddenly; and is promoted by a few, along to or in place of (say) popular uprisings. A revolution is about "what happens afterwards (or is planned to happen afterwards)": the system change. 194.78.208.93


Is "putsch" a usual word in english ?
Ericd
Putsch is used almost exclusively in reference to the Hitler attempts against Weimar. Ortolan88
My Collins dicitonary says "a sudden violent or illegal seizure of government" for coup d'état -- Tarquin 17:37 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)
I'm absolutely certain that the 2 are not mutually exclusive. Revolution is mainly a policy while a coup d'état is a mean to acccess to the power.
The cultural revolution was led by Mao who alrerady had the power.
Ericd
I think it is needlessly confusing to keep the so-called "revolutions" out of the list of coups. If a bunch of gun-brandishing folks storm into the president's palace and forcibly seize control, then that is a coup. The ideological motivations for doing so are secondary.
Besides, it seems almost every coup uses revolutionary language to justify its occurance. Pinochet's coup is sometimes called the "Chillean Revolution" as he justified it as a revolution against Communism. Likewise, Castro also claimed to have ambitious revolutionary goals backing his coup, but when they look back on history years from now I am sure the "Cuban revolution" will be seen as little more than a switch from one style of dictator to another.
In a way "revolution" is a sort of loaded term. It implies that the coup was somehow "above" other violent seizures of power, because they were doing it in the spirit of the people / Marx / God / etc etc. user:J.J.
If we are discussing about the two sense of the world revolution :
- a revolution can be a policy aimed to radically change the system,
- a revolution is a a seizure of power with popular support.
The Cuban revolution is a revolution because :
- it had popular support,
- it radically changed the political system.
The fact that Castro failed (or IMO never tried) to bring democracy in Cuba is an other problem.
When you call the Cuban revolution a coup it's obviously ideological. Even the French Revolution could be viewed as "a bunch of gun-brandishing folks storming into the King's palace"
Many revolutions involve one or several Coups, and they were at list 3 Coups during the French revolution.
About Castro we can write he attempted (and failed) a Coup before retreating into the Sierra Maestra but not that the whole Cuban revolution was a simple coup.
Ericd 10:45 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Something in that direction. A coup d'état is _momentous_ - a sudden change of régime. A coup d'état is never legal, but might be viewed as legitime. A revolution is a process, which might be totally legalistic (for instance when following elections, confirmed in a plebiscite, etc), or might be more or less like a civil war until the revolutionary régime has seized the power of the state. -- Johan Magnus 03:42, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)


You can't call the last election a coup unless you call the 1960 election a coup and the 1876 election as well. Dirty politics in all three cases. Sorry, I don't like him either, but he had the guts to face down Gore and he won. The enfeeblement of the Democrats is the real story of the 2000 election and the current Bush administration, not a coup. Ortolan88 17:52 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)

I don't want to dicuss is the election was legal or not. But an electoral fraud has never been considered as a coup d'état.
Ericd

--- Concerning the above discussion: haven't you guys ever heard of "connotation vs. denotation" and "literal vs. metaphorical?" A literal definition of a word is never based on all examples of usage; usage may reflect the literal definition, denotations, or metaphorical extension. Slrubenstein

Hmmm... Hitler was elected isn'it ? Ericd 22:19 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

Why did you ask this? I crtl+F'ed and found no Hitlers, Germanys, and Nazis in the article. Had it been removed? If so, the remover should've left a note here. --Menchi 00:34 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I didn't remember myself but on April 3 there was a sentence sugestint that Hitler accessed to the the power by a coup. Ericd 08:27 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Compare the Reichtag's fire and the subsequent transgressions of the Weimar Constitutioni. The result of the election was changed by imprisonments. Could well be called a coup, as also the abolishment of the precidency after Hindenburg's death. -- Johan Magnus

It's obvious that Hitler made several violations of the constitution after accessing to the power. But this not a typical coup in the same way we can discuss for ages if Charles de Gaulle made a coup in 1958 (and maybe also in 1962). Ericd 10:29, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)

"Coup d' etat is not the way to change the government!!!"

In a de jure sense, I believe Cuba was a coup. Batista was chased out of office and into exile by guerrillas. Yes, it was a revolution, but it was also a coup IMO.
--Sesel 02:56, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Spain / Czechoslovakia

Could the events that led to Francisco Franco establishing a dictotorship in Spain in the 1930s be considered a coup d'etat? He assumed control of the country, yes, but through the civil war, not a coup.

- Franco's seizure of Spain was not really a coup. He formed an alliance of conservative military officers, Spain's colonial Africa corps, and a variety of rightwing and anti-Communist forces: the Fascist party (the Falange), the Carlists, Associations of Monarchists or Royalists, and ultra conservative members of the clergy who were terrified of Anarchist and Communist attacks. Together, with the help of German and Italian soldiers and around 800 Fascist Irish volunteers and roughly 200 Czarist Russian exiles; they launched a civil war to oust the elected Popular Front government, which went on for four years.

The Loyalist or Republican side (the government) maintained the loyalty of the entire Navy, most of Spain's tiny air force, and the police. They of course also had the backing of almost every trade union across the country, all leftwing and liberal groups and thousands of volunteers from Canada, the U.S., Britain, France, Ireland, and even exiles from Fascist Italy. It was really more of a civil war, a revolution? Possibly you could call it that. But basically it was you're run of the mill civil war.

Also, the events in Czechoslovakia 1948, could they really be considered a coup by the communists? The non-communist parties resigned but the communists and the social democrats had a majority of one in parliament so they stayed in power. Why is that on the list of coups in history? User:Thuresson 192.121.232.252 11:32, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

- Since Franco's seizure of Spain is listed as a coup shouldn't King Juan Carlos I be listed as one of the currently serving leaders who came to power via a coup? After all he was designated King according to the law of succession promulgated by Franco.

Franco did assumed parts Spain through a coup. THEN, a civil war began. José San Martin 13:49, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suriname

There was a succesfull coup in 1980 led by Desi Bouterse. I have never heard of a coup in 1986. Andries 21:18, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Cuba

What fidel did on 1959 was a revolution not a coup, following your stated definition

I agree totally. If no one states against, I'm deleting Fidel from this list. Dictator or not, he came to power in a revolution with a very large basis that changed deeply the Cuban National State. Not a Coup, by this article's definition. José San Martin July 9, 2005 15:26 (UTC)

I agree, most Cubans at the time felt that he would bring them democracy. And as a result his 26th of July Movement had hundreds of thousands of open supporters nationwide, possibly millions of silent supporters. Batista did come to power in a coup, two coups actually. Although in 1933 most of the Cuban people did hate General Machado, the so called "Sergeant's Revolution" which Batista led had virtually no mass support and was almost kept a complete secret from the public until it was a success.

[edit] Peru

President Alberto Fujimori was not overtrown on a Coup. He faced massive protest led by then Opossition lider Alejandro Toledo, but at eny moment he was use force to dissolve those protests. Fujimori resigned to the presidency of Peru on November 16, 2001. So I think that he should be disregard of the list (expect for the self-coup) Messhermit 17:04, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thacher a coup?

Was the 1990 removal of Mrs Thacher a coup ?

Although acheived through the democratic rules of the Conservative Party, and the constitution, it seams to forfill the stated deffinition "is the sudden overthrow of a government, usually done by a small group that just replaces the top power figures" In that the Prime Minister was plotted against by her ministers, and replaced by one of them.

Discuss...., 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I think it probably was. --Captdoc 22:08, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

By this standard George W Bush should be on the list of currently serving leaders who came to power by coup as he came to power as a result of what amounted to a judicial coup.--Gramscis cousin 16:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iran

Isn't the Iranian Revolution considered a Coup? The Shah was overthrown and his government ousted. Just wondering.

By the definition of coup, "A coup d'état (...) is the sudden overthrow of a government, usually done by a small group that just replaces the top power figures. It is different from a revolution, which is staged by a larger group and radically changes the political system.", the revolution is not a coup, but in 1953 the American CIA and the British MI6 overthrew the government and placed the Shah as ruler, the coup goes under the name of Operation Ajax.

[edit] Nepal

Was the king seizing power in Nepal really a coup? I'm not 100% sure but I believe he had the constitutional authority to dissolve parliment, in which case it would not be a true coup.

[edit] Cyprus

I added the coup in Cyprus in 1974 to this list - seems pretty key to me and I can't imagine anybody will argue for its removal, but thought I'd better leave a note here to flag it up... Peeper 08:54, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Coups and coup attempts in fiction?

I removed the "Coups and coup attempts in fiction" section, which in its entirety contained:

I mean, seriously... What next? Adding "fictional murders" to murder? It's also quite notable that only the latest Star Wars movie is listed in this ill-conceived beginning of a trivia list, which sticks out like a sore thumb. There have to be an absurd number of fictional coups, from political thrillers to historical novels, none of them adding the least bit of understanding to the topic. If anyone thinks this has potential, I encourage you to start list of fictional coups and coup attempts, but it definitely doesn't mix with this article. 82.92.119.11 22:55, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kennedy Coup

Removed from the article. Approaches Patent nonsense, and short of that fails the test of the 2002 coup attempt/revolt in Ivory Coast.

-Ben 19:31, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Nonsense, Ben. Patent nonsense obviously doesn't apply; check the link. It's certainly well-established that a majority of U.S. citizens believe that Kennedy was killed by conspiracy. If that is so, then the Kennedy Assassination was the greatest coup d'etat of the century. Granted, it is an ongoing controversy, but you at least need to include it as an alleged coup. Certainly as strong a case as the Business Plot mentioned.
It doesn't qualify as a coup.... Ericd 03:05, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Why not? In order for the Kennedy Assassination not to count as a coup, or at least an alleged coup, the Oswald version would have to be established fact, which is far from the case. Polls suggest that 60-80% of Americans believe this was an intelligence coup.
Why are these the only two possibilities? I've heard speculation that Kennedy was killed by organized crime figures as payback for his brother's role in prosecuting them. I'm not qualified to judge the plausibility of that story, but it seems as live a hypothesis as the theories of intelligence conspiracy. If there was a conspiracy but it wasn't connected to Johnson or to anyone who gained governmental power as a result of it, then it's just an assassination conspiracy, not a coup. --Matt McIrvin 04:36, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
One of the major Kennedy assassination theories, probably the most widespread, holds that the assassination was a coup d'etat by the military-industrial complex, including the FBI and the CIA, that installed Johnson in power. Sure, it's not the only theory, but it's the most widespread. So the short answer is that the most widely researched assassination theory is also a theory of an alleged coup d'etat.

[edit] Lack of references

The governments of France and Britain have engineered coups as well. Shouldn't this be "are accused to have engineered", or shouldn't there be precise references? One may for instance cite Bob Denard's early dealings in Comoros, but are there proofs he was backed by France? David.Monniaux 09:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] October Revolution

I added the Bolshevik revolution of October 1917 to the list. It doesn't really fit the definition of revolution, it fits a coup better. For instance: It wasn't led by a majority of the populace but by a small group under Lenin. It did implement alot of changes, but it became apparent that the spirit of revolution was short lived and that in fact the Communist Party had just replaced the Bourgoise as the top dogs. It's fairly blurry between whether it's a revolution or a coup but it fits the definition of coup well enough so I thought I'd add it. --GinAndTonic 19:27, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


And I REMOVED it from the list. Why? As per the article's definition of the coup, it replaces only the top leaders, not the whole political and socioeconomic system.

http://www.marxist.com/russian-revolution-colour-documentary.htm

In the article above (and many other leftist articles), the Bolsheviks derived their revolutionary legitimacy through the small-s soviets:

"The delegates, who were elected at every unit of labour to the Soviets of Workers’, Soldiers’ and Peasants’ Deputies and to the Central Executive Committee of the All-Russian Soviets, were subject to immediate recall and no deputy received more than the wage of a skilled worker."

"So while the Bolsheviks got only 23.9 per cent in the Constituent Assembly, the working class voted for the Bolsheviks in the soviets, giving them 51 per cent of the votes. The right SRs, the representatives of the peasantry raised the slogan: ‘All power to the Constituent Assembly’. The Bolsheviks, the vanguard and representative of the workers, raised the slogan: ‘All power to the soviets’."

--Darth Sidious 15:04 PST, 11 November 2005

Going by the Wikipedian definition: Sudden overthrow: Yes. Done by a small group that replaces the top figures of power: Lenin and Leninism supports control of a small elite to "vanguard communism" which places the party as the head of state and so replaced the Czar. Different from a revolution which is staged by a larger group and radically changes the political system: The fact that they didn't have a majority in the assembly and only slightly above half in the soviets points towards that the group itself wasn't large, coupled with the ensuing civil war which lasted for three years, and Leninism being founded on the basis of a small elite. It seemed to radically changed the political system, but in retrospect the Communist Party wasn't all that different or any less totalitarian than the Czar was. It at the very least deserves a mention and perhaps could use an asterics for disputed next to it.--GinAndTonic 05:22, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Is it called October Revolution or October Coup? We're not here to rewrite the History. José San Martin 19:40, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Going by that logic shouldn't the 1974: Military coup in Portugal (Carnation Revolution) be removed?

The october revolution was both a coup and a revolution. It was both a sudden change of government and a radical change of policies (however, the october revolution did not come from within the state establishment, as is a criteria for the definition of coup in this article). By revolution you do not say anything about rise to power. By revolution you talk about the degree of political change.

[edit] Napoleon

Did Napoleon coin this phrase?

[edit] Before

Since someone mentioned Napoleon, I ask: are we able to make a list about coups before 1920? This kind of list shouldn't be so comprehensive as a XX-th century list, but is not unnecessary. What do you think about? José San Martin 23:52, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lucio Gutiérrez

Sesel,

I've noticed that you removed Lucio Gutiérrez deposition from the list of coups d'état. I followed that incident in the media and to me it was characterized as a coup d'état. Have you listed this coup in another topic, like revolution or revolts? I know you must have your own reasons, but let me explain mine.

  • My country gave him political exile, he returned there and now he is arrested. Since he has been arrested without formal accusation other than that he is "attempting to subvert Ecuador's internal security" (it is written in the end of Gutiérrez article), it characterizes a not-so-constitutional situation.
  • Alfredo Palácio was deposed by a montion passed by the Congress. It does not make his deposition constitutional, since many coups were later confirmed by the parliament, including Brazilian 1964 coup. Citing wikipedia article, "a dubious claim: at that moment he was still in the Presidential Palace and was forced to leave later".
  • The Comando Conjunto de las Fuerzas Armadas (a military body equivalent to the Joint Chiefs of Staff) public disaproved Lucio Gutiérrez continuity in power. In normal situations, military bodies must not have political opinions. In a coup, however, they normally are against the deposed, president.
  • Finally, I present wikipedia definition of a coup: "the sudden overthrow of a government [of Gutiérrez], usually done by a smaller supposedly weaker body [the congress, even if they had some street supportance] that just replaces [by Alfredo Palacio] the top power figures [Gutiérrez]."

Regards,

José San Martin 16:18, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Iraq

I added to the list of coups the important info. that the 1963 and '68 coups in Iraq were done with CIA backing. I could not include the cite there but here they are: New York Times March 14, 2003 "A Tyrant 40 Years in the Making", free archive at: http://readthese.blogspot.com/2003_12_15_readthese_archive.html "The Old Social Classes and the Revolutionary Movements of Iraq", Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1978; Peter and Marion Sluglett, "Iraq Since 1958" London, I.B. Taurus

[edit] Introduction doubts

The introduction summary is very unsatisfying, and requires big changes. In particular:

  • "A coup ... is the sudden overthrow of a government]] against the volonté générale formed by the majority of the citizenry." This is utterly wrong. While some coups have also overthrowed democracies (often weakened by a considerable loss of popularity) it is by far more common that authoritarian regimes, who often had arrived to power through a coup, are overthrowed. Also, it should be remembered that often at their start coups were often celebrated at start by the population, who cebrated the fall of a hated dictatator or, also, an unpopular democracy felt as corrupt or oligarchic.
  • "usually done by a smaller supposedly weaker body that just replaces the top power figures." While the last statement is generally correct, that on the "weaker body" is not; a coup may or may not create a weaker body, and are often at the start stronger than the overthrowed government; after all, it is very rare that a government that can count on the full support of the population is overthrowed by a coup.
  • "Any seizure of the state apparatus by extra-legal tactics may be considered a coup, according to Luttwak." This is not exactly what is said by Luttwak in the citation. Luttwak says: "A coup consists of the infiltration of a small but critical segment of the state apparatus, which is then used to displace the government from its control of the remainder." From what I understand, Luttwak poses as a condition that a coup is such that it come from the state-apparatus; i.e., a government is overthrown by a part of itself. Aldux 14:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Turkey (1997)

Well what is happened in 1997 can hardly be told a military coup. Coalition government's second partner needed to be prime minister therefore existing prime minister resigned. President didn't give the responsibility of formin goverment to the smaller partner of coalition. So a new government has been formed. It is called an "post modern coup" because it was a reflection of a crisis after feb 28 1997 National Security Assembly (Which is formed by soldiers and government). In this meeting Fundementalist movements declared as the biggest threat for country and rulling party was an islamist party.

[edit] Section problems

The title of the section on 20th century coups is Coup d'état#Important coups in the twentieth century. This title should mean that only coups are listed, and only the important ones; instead it's full of failed and botched attempts. For this, unless good reasons are given, I'm going to remove failed coups from the list and keep those that were successful in overthrowing the government.--Aldux 11:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

No no no, just change the title! Some failed coups, are VERY important in the history of the countries, like the 23-F coup in Spain. José San Martin 14:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spliting

This article is already large and complete. How about spliting the sections (5) Coups and coup attempts in the twentieth century, (6) Coups and coup attempts in the twentieth century, (7) Recent coups and coup attempts and perhaps (8) Currently-serving leaders who came to power via coups into a new article named "List of coups and coups attemps" ?

By the way, I think the list of coups since 1910 is comprehensive, but there's a lack of coups before them. Spliting could help to complete the list. José San Martin 19:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Titlle spelling

Hello,

Actually, in French the right spelling of this is "coup d'État" uses a capital letter for "État" as it is referring to an organised political community.

I guess this should be corrected.

Peace -- Cln-id from the French-speaking Wikipédia -- 00:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, this may be true in French, but I've never seen it capitalized that way in English text. —Bkell (talk) 07:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
It's not capitalized that way in English. —Lowellian (reply) 08:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I have reverted the capitalization per Lowellian's reassurance, as it seems to be the correct way in English to leave it uncapitalized. Comrade4·2 23:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coup/Putsch

Does in English coup and putsch mean exactly the same thing? In Serbia, when I was going to school, from history and sociology, we learned that those are two different tings. Coup d'etat (literally strike of the state) is conducted from the above (by the head of state or government, thus the name) while putsch (or overthrowing) was conduced from the above (lower levels of power; head of state can't overthrow himself) and we were given two examples from our history: coup conducted by the king Alexander I in 1929 and putsch by the military in 1941. PajaBG 19:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

You might be right, but I don't know.Cameron Nedland 19:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Taiwan Coup? Wha?

The history section of the article lists Taiwan as a coup victim. When was this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.103.222 (talk) 02:58, 3 October 2006

I lived in Taiwan and I never heard there is a coup and successfully done... 163.28.81.2 03:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chavez

last time I checked Chavez was democratically elected - he did serve jail prior to turning to democratic means for an attempted coup which is maybe where the confusion comes in --Gramscis cousin 07:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Worldwide coups map

Today, the user SpLoT has uploaded the following image to Wikimedia Commons and subsequently added it to this page.

I think that this kind of map is a very great idea and highly self-explanatory. However, it's quite POVed. Why USA, UK, Mozambique and Australia are marked in green? As far as I know, none of them are listed in List of coups d'état and coups attempts. They have been through revolutions, election frauds, civil wars, plots, president assassinations? Yes. Should these quasi-coups be mentioned as coups? Well, a bit too POV and already discussed by Wikipedian community, since they are not listed in Wikipedia as coups.

SpLoT, could you to redraw your map and exclude the countries not properly listed? José San Martin 13:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, here's how I did this map. First, I looked at the list, and then I added other countries with coups from all the history pages of the individual countries. I will try to redraw the map with the success/failure factor.
For the Australia one, I could just colour New South Wales (Similar to the colouring of Abu Dhabi and Yanaon). So after these improvements, would it still be POV? - SpLoT / (talk) 14:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I have made the relevant changes, awaiting your responses. - SpLoT / (talk) 13:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


I'd hardly consider the Rum Rebellion modern (Australia wasn't even a nation then), and the Gunpowder Plot is definitely NOT modern - it happened in 1605. And I seriously question including a "coup" which never got beyond the talking stages in the case of the US. This map should be fixed or removed ASAP.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.130.28.43 (talk) 06:09, 16 November 2006

Disagree. If you want to remove the map, please get concensus. - SpLoT / (talk) 13:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

SpLoT, I noticed you removed the map...I hope this is due to the fact you're fixing it and not getting rid of it entirely. Despite some problems, I think it still had overall worth. Perhaps re-title it (Distribution of notable coup attempts 1600-present) or just fix some problems and make it recent historical (say 1900-present). Also, if you include a link to the list of coups page in the caption I think it would help people understand your methodology...and that you're not trying to include POV claims or advance a political agenda.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.130.28.43 (talk) 20:57, 16 November 2006

I did not remove it, I changed it to include 2 versions (one with the english legend and caption on en.wiki, and one internationalized one without on commons). To add 'notable' would be extremely subjective, even more than it is now with the 'modern'. I just cannot include all former Roman Empire territory as 'successful coup', unless you do want that. 1605 would be considered Early Modern, and not Medieval. If anyone removes it, I will then direct them to this discussion, or put a note on the page itself with <!-- -->. - SpLoT / (talk) 13:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"I just cannot include all former Roman Empire territory as 'successful coup', unless you do want that."  ??? I'm afraid I don't know what you are talking about. And yes, 1605 is considered "Early Modern," which is not to be confused with the "Modern era"...i.e., what is denoted by your use of "modern." And there is a difference between being subjective and being POV. It's up to the community to figure out where that is, but I don't think anyone would throw a fit at the use of the word 'notable.' Although, I'm sure you could find a better title with a little bit of thought...that was just a quick suggestion of mine.

I think if you want a better title, please suggest one. It's only practical that we start from the Rum Rebellion and Gunpowder Plot, since there's a huge break in between with no coups. The Roman Empire had a successful coup, and that would be too long ago. And please sign your posts; I'm tired of tagging {{unsigned}}. - SpLoT / (talk) 10:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


As I said, I have no problem with including The Gunpowder Plot in 1605...just don't call it modern. It's not. I suggested several titles, so I'm done with that. And if you really think there were no coups between 1605 and 1808 (or between 476 and 1605), you are sadly mistaken. Not to mention that including coups from that era (1600s) opens a whole can of worms as the political geography was completely different. Have fun highlighting The Ottoman Empire on your map. Signed, Unsigned.


The following countries are missing on the map:

  • Angola (attempt in 1977)
  • Azerbaijan (1993)
  • Bophuthatswana (attempt in 1988)
  • Bulgaria (1934, 1944)
  • Ciskei (1990)
  • Dominica (attempt in 1981)
  • Lebanon (attempt in 1961/1962)
  • Rwanda (1973)
  • Sharjah (attempt in 1972)
  • Solomon Islands (2000)
  • Transkei (1987)
  • Tunisia (1987)
  • Vanuatu (attempt in 1996)
  • Venda (1990)
  • Zanzibar (coup/revolution in 1964)

—Sesel 17:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I've restored you map in both pages. Great work! Sorry for if bothered, ok? José San Martin 23:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Not a problem. Regarding the list above:

  • Angola: no evidence
  • Azerbaijan: attempt 1995 - done.
  • Bophuthatswana: attempt 1988, 90 - done.
  • Bulgaria: no evidence
  • Ciskei: coup 1990 - done.
  • Dominica: attempt 1981 - done.
  • Lebanon: no evidence
  • Rwanda: coup 1973 - done.
  • Sharjah: no evidence
  • Solomon Islands: coup 2000 - done.
  • Transkei: coup 1987 - done.
  • Tunisia: coup 1987 - done.
  • Vanuatu: attempt 1996 - done.
  • Venda: coup 1990 - done.
  • Zanzibar: coup 1964 - done.

Thank you for all your inputs, Sesel and José San Martin. I will incorporate all the newly found coups into the map soon. Meanwhile, try to add the info on the coups which I have not found any evidence for. Thanks again. - SpLoT / (talk) 09:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Relevant changes made. Now awaiting evidence for Angola, Azerbaijan (coup), Bulgaria, Lebanon and Sharjah. - SpLoT / (talk) 10:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Finally, the map is complete, we shall see how the map is. Hope this map is as accurate as possible. --Terence Ong (C | R) 12:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Here are cites for the rest:
Thank you. - SpLoT / (talk) 01:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Why aren't Nicaragua and Peru both among the successful coup contries? And isn't the gunpowder plot a bit too old? Its centuries from all the other examples presented.--Aldux 22:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Gunpower plot is not 'centuries from all the other examples'; it is modern enough to be included. The Roman Empire would be too old, but the Gunpowder plot is certainly not medieval. - SpLoT / (talk) 04:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
For Peru, I have coloured it dark green now. For Nicaragua, please give some evidence of attempted or successful coups. Thanks. - SpLoT / (talk) 04:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, successful in Costarica 1870, 1876, 1914 [9]; successful in Nicaragua in 1925 [10]; Malawi unsuccessful coup plots in 1993 and 2001.[11], Tanzania unsuccessful coup plots in 1969, 1982 [12], Jordan, failed coup, 1957 [13].--Aldux 16:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think a distinction should be made between coup attempts and coup "plots." —Sesel 18:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid somebody will have to explain the distinction, becouse I don't know it. If it's what I believe, many of those countries coloured in light green did not reach operative phase (USA, GB, Italy and others that were blocked before starting the action).--Aldux 00:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added the 'coup plot' category, and used a clearer map. - SpLoT (*T* C+u+g+v) 15:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I would just like to suggest a better color scheme, with more contrast as I can tell the difference between attempts and plots (perhaps it's just my eyes). Why not use yellow for plots, orange for attempts and red for coups, or else, yellow for plots, green for attempts and blue for coups? 201.59.1.129 00:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Copied from Image talk:EN Worldwide coups d'état.PNG:
I realize the points raised by Ultramarine are significant and relevant to the map and the entire article. However, I disagree that this is a violation of WP:NOR, but concede that the map can bring in complex WP:V issues due to the sheer number of sources used, which inevitably causes slight to moderate WP:BIAS in the map since multiple sources have differing definitions of a coup. Until a single WP:RS which summarizes worldwide coups is found, I recognise the fact that the information presented in the map is impossible to conclusively verify en masse, and retract all usage of the map on all mainspace articles. Thanks for all your support and criticism; I've certainly brushed up on my policy knowledge during this discussion. - SpLoT // 15:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Most recent coup d'etat

This article says Thailand was most recent coup d'etat. Fiji December 5 2006 [14] is more recent.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.180.124.62 (talk) 11:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Nature of Coup on Local Government

I'm a little confused by the article. It says that a Coup generally replaces just the major offices. But, I thought that if a Coup were to happen, the entire government would fall, including at the local level by default; and the local level can only keep its governmental posts if it's granted by the incoming government. Is that correct? The way I understood it is that a coup would discard the entire national constitution; the local charters and constitutions are all based on the national one; ergo if the national constitution gets struck down by a coup d'etat, then all the depending lower level charters are in effect destroyed as well.

In short, from what I understand, local level officials lose their offices by default, but they can keep their offices only through the concession and mercy of the incoming government. Am I off-mark?J.J. Bustamante 12:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current leaders list

On the part of the article that lists the current world leaders who gained their seats by coup, could Philippine President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo be considered as one of them? While it's true that in her current term, she won through an election in 2004, but that wasn't the same case with her term beginning in 2001 when President Estrada was thrown out. Her first term was pretty much a de facto coup, and she's still in power.J.J. Bustamante 05:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Veto Coups

"Examples include Chile in 1973 and Argentina in 1976. An abortive and botched veto coup occurred in Venezuela in 2002."

This is at least partially incorrect. In Chile, the popularly elected Chamber of Deputies called upon the military to depose the emerging brutal Marxist Allende dictatorship. The Army was acting in step with the legislative and judicial branches against the unconstitutional usurpations of the executive branch. This was not a veto coup. I don't think it fits any of the three Huntington coup types. It has similarities to a guardian coup, but the central aim was to defend the Chilean Constitution, not "to improve public order, efficiency, or to end corruption." - MSTCrow 22:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you serious? Salvator Allende was a democratically elected president who got removed by a military coup. After that, a fascist government led by Augusto Pinochet took over the country, killing and torturing tens of thousands. This is a perfect example of a veto coup. lomis 23:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Capital E

Since the article itself states that the 'E' in the word coup d'État should be capitalized in this usage, and since it wasn't, I capitalized it througout, except for the title, which I could not change. I recommend that someone fix the title to reflect the proper spelling of the word.

In french, "État" is always written with a capital "É" (with accent, for PC: <ALT>+144) "état" = state (for non legal use: medical purpose, etc.) "État" = State (for legal use: "un État souverain" = A sovereign State) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.164.100.30 (talk) 14:09, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Englishlessness

Removed from the etymology section:

Unusually, this is a political action that does not have an English equivalent. English speaking writers typically borrow either “Coup d'État,” the French expression, or the German word, “Putsch.”

Is it really unusual? What's the English equivalent for avant-garde or agent provocateur or bon appétit or entepreneur or faux pas or voilà or... --Alivemajor 03:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Often through illegal means"

Right now, the first paragraph of the article says that coups happen often through illegal means. Isn't that sort of an understatement? Coups are always illegal, in that they happen outside of the recognised constitution in place at the time. I can't think of any scenario where a coup would be "legal." If it were legal, it would be like an election or other constitutional transfer of power.J.J. Bustamante 05:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Just wondering

Would the following view help anything: the optimised arrangement produced by the evolution:

  • compassion -> human values -> health,
  • justice -> each thing treated according to what it produces -> health of practises in this respect,
  • carrying responsibility of the things that one affects -> guidability,
  • sincerety in communication -> a correct picture of how things are -> guidability,
  • holistic objectivity -> things treated according to their role in the world;

in other words: excellent moral is the optimised choise. InsectIntelligence (talk) 17:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of "Coup" in a Sentence

Whilst using "coup" (just coup) in a sentence, would you say that it belongs to the person, the government, or the country involved. For Example:

Bill overthrows Bob, King of Happyland.

Which sentence(s) are correct?

  1. The Coup of Bill
  2. The Coup of King Bob
  3. The Coup of Happyland
  4. Bill's Coup
  5. King Bob's Coup
  6. Happyland's Coup

Please reply Mhavril39 (talk) 20:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)