Talk:County of London

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  • more on population decline, density etc. (perhaps relate to outer London growth)
  • mention the various reviews of structures in the Greater London area
  • mention differences between the CoL and other counties (compare the metropolitan boroughs with districts created elsewhere in 1894)
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[edit] Tower Hamlets

Isn't Tower Hamlets a borough? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MichiganDan (talk • contribs) 06:51, 12 November 2004.

Created since the County of London was decommisioned.
It was a parliamentary borough between 1832 and 1884. john k 05:22, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Old counties

I have a question, however - can anyone identify which boroughs came from which traditional counties? At a guess, I'd say the ones north of the Thames (which I'm assuming from the map are City of London, Westminster, Holborn, Finsbury, Shoreditch, Bethnal Green, Stepney, Poplar, Hackney, Stoke Newington, Islington, St Pancras, Hampstead, St Marylebone, Paddington, Kensington, Hammersmith, Fulham, and Chelsea) were part of Middlesex, and that those south of it were divided between Kent and Surrey, with probably Deptford, Lewisham, Woolwich, and Greenwich from Kent, and the rest (Bermondsey, Southwark, Camberwell, Lambeth, Battersea, and Wandsworth) from Surrey. This is based on the fact that, as I understand it, the Thames was the boundary, and that I know Southwark at least was in Surrey (it was a Surrey parliamentary borough). Can anyone confirm or deny this? john k 05:22, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Most of my guesswork seems confirmed by looking at the articles on the various places - it gives Camberwell and Bermondsey as Surrey, Poplar and Fulham as Middlesex, and Deptford for Kent...shall I include it in the article? john k 05:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
You are broadly right about the boroughs north of the Thames, with the vital exceptions of the Cities of Westminster and London. The City of London (which is not a borough) has never been part of Middlesex, and Westminster was a separate entity for centuries before 1889. Tarquin Binary 12:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
See Metropolis Management Act 1855 for the parishes and counties that were to be become the County of London. For the parishes in each of the boroughs themselves see London Government Act 1899 Lozleader 14:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I know that Westminster was not administered as part of Middlesex, but wasn't it geographically part of Middlesex? I thought pretty much every place in England was geographically assigned to one of the 39 counties. Even Bristol was technically part of Gloucestershire, for instance, even though it's never been administered as such (or, at least, hasn't for about as long as Westminster hasn't been administered by Middlesex). john k 05:30, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, thought you were talking about administration because of the context of this piece. It seems the answer is - yes and no: according to WP - City of London - the City is a ceremonial county in its own right, unsurprisingly (that makes 40 counties, then). City of Westminster does not give a ceremonial county, but its constituent parts - see Bayswater - do give Middlesex. Tarquin Binary 07:24, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

The City of London is currently a ceremonial county in its own right. But so is Bristol. And in the past, various other cities have been as well (see Lists of Lord Lieutenancies). Also, the 40th county of England was arguably Monmouthshire, which was technically part of England until the 1960s. john k 22:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, Westminster gives Middlesex as the traditional (not ceremonial) county. Remember that traditional and ceremonial counties are separate. A ceremonial county is one that has its own Lord Lieutenant. This often differs from the traditional counties, which are essentially the English counties as they existed prior to the creation of the County of London in 1865. john k 22:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Constituencies as defined 1885

There was no alteration of boundaries of constituencies as defined 1885 until 1918, and I am wondering what might be meant if a constituency of the period is listed in a reference work as a division of eg Tower Hamlets. Was there a Tower Hamlets 'vestry' in 1885? Or a Battersea and Clapham vestry? Laurel Bush 15:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC).

Nope, they are divisions of parliamentary boroughs, which were groupings of civil parishes. Just like parliamentary counties, boroughs could be divided into two or more divisions. For local government they were administered by various different vestries and district boards created by the Metropolis Management Act 1855. However the different systems did not correspond. To take the two parliamentary boroughs you mentioned:
  • Tower Hamlets (a parliamentary borough of Middlesex)
    • Bow and Bromley Division: parishes of Bow and part of Bromley (part of Poplar District)
    • Limehouse Division: parishes of Limehouse, Ratcliffe, Shadwell (all part of Limehouse District)
    • Mile End Division: the North and East Wards of Mile End Old Town (vestry)
    • Poplar Division: Poplar and part of Bromley (part of Poplar District)
    • St George Division: St George in the East (Vestry), Wapping (part of Limehouse District)
    • Stepney Division: Centre, West and South wards of Mile End Old Town (vestry)
    • Whitechapel Division: Holy Trinity Minories, Mile End New Town, Norton Folgate, Old Artillery Ground, St Botolph without Aldgate, St Katherine by the Tower, Spitalfields, Tower of London, Old Tower Without, (all part of Whitechapel Division)
  • Battersea and Clapham (a parliamentary borough of Surrrey)
    • Battersea Division: No.2, No.3 and part of No.4 wards of Battersea parish (part of Wandsworth District)
    • Clapham Division: No.1 ward and part of No.4 ward of Battersea parish, Clapham parish (parts of Wandsworth District)

with the rest of the Wandsworth District becoming a separate parliamentary borough of Wandsworth. Lozleader 19:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)