Talk:County Down

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Should these Irish counties be moved to County XXX, Northern Ireland or is it safe to assume no name conflicts with counties in the US and Canada? -- JeLuF

There shouldn't be any conflict since, AFAIK, counties in N. America all have names with the format "X County", and not "County X" as in Ireland. -- 194.73.118.77 10:53, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Why the county crest in irish? EIRE across it? County Down is in Northern Ireland and the UK. Any crest should be in English. 86.131.202.57 23:03, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Well I'm guessing that this is some kind of historical crest, but if so, it should be clarified as such. --feline1 09:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Its obviously a GAA crest[1]. Djegan 18:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It is not "obviously" a football club crest, it says "country crest" and is given a prominent place at the top of the article, the same way a national flag is for a country entry, or a coat of arms for a city or town. It looks very much to the reader like an official coat of arms for the county. On that basis alone, it is a bad piece of wikkery... add to that the partisan PoV-ness of having the Irish "Eire" on a Northern Irish county's crest, and it's clearly going to annoy some people (as it did to that anonymous user up there - although they're obviously not very bright, as most mottos on British coats of arms are in Latin LOL ;-) I have removed it from the article until this dispute is sorted out.

Compare the two images on the right, see the resemblence or is it just me? - some vast right wing conspiracy, how laughable. Djegan 22:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Image:Gaelic Athletic Association.png Image:Downnewcrest.jpg

Conspiracy no, only a unionists would think that, wrong crest yes, i organized pratically all of the GGA pagesm and it is the gaa crest used by the County GAA board, should it be used on this page, no not for that it a nationalist unionist issue, is it the wrong crest yes, if anything should be uaed it should be a tradation crest, my objections to using most of the gaa crest in the any county infobox is that many are geared to the GAA, with symbols that represent the GAA and the sports, or something. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 22:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I suggest this option [2], [3]. It must be remembered that as Northern Ireland is no longer county based their is no such thing as "official crests" in any case. Their all potentially pov. Djegan 22:32, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I dunno what you guys are going on about 'conspiracy theories' (and I sincerely hope you weren't implying I am a unionist!!) - the problem with the crest is above all that it is from some feckin football team, yet is stuck atop the article giving the impression that its an official coat of arms. (And yes, Djegan, if you put the two images beside each other, I can see the "obvious" similarity - but since I neither know nor care anything about football, why would I have known what a GAA logo looked like? Wikipedia articles are not supposed to only be intelligable to people who like football!

You appear to have found the correct heraldic coat-of-arms for Down, so that should certainly be the one used in the article. I wouldn't worry about the fact that counties in NornIrond are no longer used for local government administration - they are still quite ubiquitously recognised by everyone who lives in the country (much more so that the local government districts - I'd be amazed if you could find me someone who could rhyme off the names of all of those!), and if we have an article about a historical county, we can surely show its historical coat of arms....--feline1 23:16, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Would this crest be a more suitable one? Image:Down_Crest.gif (Thebdogg 22:18, 1 November 2005 (UTC))

I think Djegan already found the proper one, with his external links above. That one you've found is close, but it doesn't have a fish! LOL. I'm sure the people of Ardglass and Dongdiggledee would want to see their fish on there.--feline1 23:43, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Imperial vs. Metric 2 County St Mirren 3 Map 4 Earthquake

[edit] Imperial vs. Metric

It is just a little peculiar and trolling to change metric to imperial as this has been the consensus since just about anyone can remember in these articles. Additionally all other infoboxes for Northern Ireland counties use metric only. Hopefully not another revert war. Djegan 17:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Even English counties use metric e.g. Berkshire, Nottinghamshire. Djegan 17:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

What the English counties you note have in them currently is fair enough. I have been patiently changing the order of importance, or including the imperial distances in articles I've noticed. Why? Because in the United Kingdom, distances are measured in miles - not in kilometres. Being a person from the UK, kilometres means very little to me. Other measurements in feet and/or metres don't matter because they are used interchangeably in the UK. --Mal 00:47, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want to include imperial fair enough - but please bear in mind that a consensus would be worth getting first before a massive change in ordering or removal of metric. Incidentially if you are including imperial then simply converting the metric value using standard conversions is somewhat improper; ideally an external source would be best. Additionally if you want to show your good faith it may be worth bearing in mind that simply changing the imperial/metric in one article (viz this one) is not sufficent, all effected articles should be changed, i.e. Northern Ireland. This would be a big project and a consensus would be ideal; perhaps as far as manual of style. 15:59, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course I want to note the distances in imperial - the country's distances are measured in miles, as I've already stated. If metric distance measurements are to be included, then that's fair enough. What could possibly be "bad faith" about putting the country's own measurements in any article? This is done for the USA (for example), and as that is a precedent, I don't believe consensus is neeeded.

Nor have I merely "changed" the imperial/metric references in one article - as I explained above, I had been "patiently changing" these in other articles.

I agree re Manual of Style that this should be included for all UK-related articles. The UK is a funny place whereby other measurements for shorter distances, or for heights etc may well be mentioned equally as much in metric as they are in imperial. Distances between towns, villages etc should be first and foremost measured in miles though, as that is the system used throughout. Is there an MoS specific to the UK? --Mal 23:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Please seek agreement first. Their is a WP:IMOS and I will take it their if your going to play a revert war on it. Djegan 23:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Before you start a revert war Mal/Setenta747 please ask yourself why metric figures are predominantly used in other UK articles (eg Belfast (Northern Ireland), Cardiff (Wales), London (England), even Scotland) firstly and why Northern Ireland articles should be different??? Its not the time to turn Northern Ireland into a metric second place against the rest of the UK, unless you have an agenda, going against the tide is not a good idea. Be sensible and consistant with like articles. Djegan 23:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Futhermore I think if your introducing imperial and changing the order to imperial first that is perhaps the most spectacular waste of time you can get involved in. Northern Ireland as imperial units heaven? Have a look thru' some UK articles. Sigh. Djegan 23:33, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The MOS suggests putting the measurement used in the source of the figure first, and the conversion second. This article does not cite its sources, so that's not terribly helpful here. The measurements have to have come from somewhere though. If this is going to come under the auspices of WP:IMOS, I would imagine that metric is the way to go. Martin 00:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

While its true that road sign distanes use miles, I have rarely came across imperial measurement elsewhere. Growing up in school, etc we always used metric measurements and any imperial measurements I ever came acorss I would convert them into metric in my head and not the other way about. For example if someone told me to walk x yards, I would convert this into metres in my head and then walk y metres. Also when I see a sign saying somewhere is X miles away, I convert this into kilometres and think it is Y kilometres away. Not becasue that is what they use in the south, but because we were always taugh metric in school and I can only assume this is the same everywhere, and I can only assume that its only a matter of time before distances and speed limits change to metric easurements in the north. Therefore I believe metric should be given presedence. Derry Boi 18:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Djegan: "Before you start a revert war Mal/Setenta747" I have not started anything other than to identify the fact that in the UK distances between locations such as towns are measured in miles.

"please ask yourself why metric figures are predominantly used in other UK articles (eg Belfast (Northern Ireland), Cardiff (Wales), London (England), even Scotland) firstly and why Northern Ireland articles should be different???" With regard to distances between locations, I suspect you are in error. The metric system is quite widely used throughout the UK - indeed, there was an increase in its usage following certain legislation the government made with regard to our status within the EU. However, the imperial system continues to be used widely also, and certainly almost exclusively with regard to mileage markers, everyday speech etc.

"Its not the time to turn Northern Ireland into a metric second place against the rest of the UK, unless you have an agenda, going against the tide is not a good idea. Be sensible and consistant with like articles." That is precisely what I am attempting: consistency. The UK uses miles to measure distances between locations. The articles should reflect that. The USA uses miles to measure distances between locations. I imagine most of the articles already reflect this. Northern Ireland will not be treated any differently because it is my intention to ensure the articles are consistent throughout Wikipedia.

"Futhermore I think if your introducing imperial and changing the order to imperial first that is perhaps the most spectacular waste of time you can get involved in." Likewise, I could say the same about your protestations, with the added facet that you are being inconsistent if you continue to attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Martin: "The MOS suggests putting the measurement used in the source of the figure first, and the conversion second. This article does not cite its sources, so that's not terribly helpful here. The measurements have to have come from somewhere though. If this is going to come under the auspices of WP:IMOS, I would imagine that metric is the way to go." I would imagine that imperial is the way to go when talking of specific measurements. People in the UK generally measure themselves in feet/inches; stones/pounds etc, and distances between locations are measured in miles. You say the "measurements have to come from somewhere". They do - roadsigns established this type of measurement many years ago.

Derry Boi: "Also when I see a sign saying somewhere is X miles away, I convert this into kilometres and think it is Y kilometres away." You may be the exception that proves the rule I'm afraid. Everyone I ever speak to in Northern Ireland, or elsewhere in the UK say, "X is Y miles away", or ask, "How many miles to X?" So far the UK has resisted any notion of changing this to kilometres, and I personally can't see it changing any time soon: like the USA, we're just too used to it. --Mal 10:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Mal/Setanta747 unless you prove you have a valid case its not going to change. Anyway your only converting metric to imperial. Sigh. Their is a consensus here for metric firsly, put imperial secondly of you wish. Thats it. If you are not happy take another wikiholiday. Djegan 10:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I suspect you are only "testing the waters" and would eventually do this to all Northern Ireland articles that you have tagged (i.e. just about every article even vaguely associated with Northern Ireland). If this was been done in good faith then you would convert all such articles now, but some of them have metric only and we would not want it to be known that we were amaturishly converting metric to imperial and then putting imperial most prominantly. We might have to actually do some work to accompish such a task, and citations of such details for referencing. Djegan 10:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] County St Mirren

I just removed the reference to the county being previously known as "County St Mirren". It was added by an anon IP in February. The IP has only made a handful of edits, mostly vandalism. Also I can find *absolutely* no evidence to the county ever bearing the name. Lozleader 09:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map

I uploaded a newer county map on par with the county maps for counties of ireland. these maps highlights the position of the county within the island of Ireland as well as Northern Ireland thus satisfying the pattern shown for the other county maps. I am aware that the other maps was just of Northern Ireland counties, however the location of the county on an "island-wide" basis is more beneficial to tourists and is a compromise that should satisfy both Nationalists and Unionists. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  17:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I find these unionist/nationalist edit wars rather asinine, but I note that if you look at, say, Kent or Powys, their maps only show the parent politcal unit (England, Wales) and not any geographically adjacent territory. Thus following this style precedent, Down should only show Northern Ireland, and Mayo should only show the Republic of Ireland, etc. Personally I'm not sure I like this convention, as the maps would surely be more informative if they showed adjacent areas?--feline1 17:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I also seen that for other areas in the UK, however I thought as you did, that it would be more beneficial to show the whole island (indeed for foreigners looking for the location of the county) as is shown for counties in other provinces on the island of Ireland. Take County Cork for example.

--  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  19:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Are English and Welsh counties one in the same thing? Are we compairing like-with-like? Compairing England and Wales with the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland maybe simplistic at best. Their is (or at least was) a "style precedent" for Ireland; and that is all counties on the map are shown irrespective of which side of the border. Djegan 20:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

One of the problems with the most recent maps (for instance) is that one might have validly believed that Northern Ireland was an island entirely surrounded by water. It would be a good idea, as a miniumum, to at least imply their is an independent and separate political entity to the south and west as indicated on some other mapping styles (for instance as in the U.S.). Djegan 20:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Djegan, that was the point i was trying to explain. It does look from just the Northern Ireland map that is it solely an island and this is confusing to non-Irish/UK observers. I would like to hear other peoples opinions on this map type, especially Unionists to see if this is ok with everyone to use! --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  20:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Earthquake

Can anyone please elaborate on the apparent earthquake in Down on 27 February 2008? Stampede1961 (talk) 02:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)