Talk:Counties of Lithuania

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[edit] Naming

A vote started on the subject apskritis vs. county, see: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Subnational entities/Naming#Apskritys of Lithuania - Vote.

The result of the vote: apskritys are called "counties" in English wikipedia. Markussep 5 July 2005 09:27 (UTC)


text below moved here from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Subnational entities/Naming Tobias Conradi (Talk) 04:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Apskritys of Lithuania - Vote

How should the primary subdivisions of Lithuania be named in English Wikipedia:

  • Apskritis (currently used in English Wikipedia, Lithuanian term)
arguments:
pro: apskritis has no direct translation in English
pro: there are more foreign language subdivisions that retain their foreign term, e.g. oblast, krai (is it really "pro" ?)
contra: This is English wikipedia. Apskritis is not English, and not easily comprehensible for English speakers
contra: apskritis is not a personal or geographical name, hence it should be translated
contra: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)
supporters:
  1. DeirYassin
  2. Halibutt
  • County (used in English Wikipedia before 23 April 2005)
arguments:
pro: county is a good English approximation of apskritis
pro: used in official English language documents (see below)
contra: the Lithuanian word for county is not apskritis
supporters:
  1. Markussep
  2. Tobias Conradi
  3. Dirgela
  4. Knutux
  5. Alga
  6. Ifdef
  7. Lysy
  • something else
  1. This is not really a vote. I just have a suggestion to post the question about the names on the corresponding Lithuanian article's talk page. I am sure someone there speaks English and would be able to help you.—Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 14:24, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC). Done Markussep 16:13, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please add your vote. This is a brief summary of discussions on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Subnational entities/Naming#Apskritys of Lithuania and Talk:Lithuania. If you like to add other arguments, do so, but briefly.Markussep 12:10, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Conclusion There is a clear majority for "county". I will move Apskritys of Lithuania to Counties of Lithuania, and all X Apskritis to X County. Markussep 5 July 2005 09:24 (UTC)

[edit] Apskritys of Lithuania - Discuss

All primary subdivisions of Lithuania were recently moved to their (probably) Lithuanian names. Now they are: X Apskritis, in which X is probably in its genitive form (I don't speak Lithuanian). For example Kauno Apskritis, which used to be Kaunas County. I don't think there are many users of English wikipedia who are fluent in Lithuanian, so I would prefer an English translation for "apskritis". If county is not acceptable, why not make it province, district or region. Markussep 12:27, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

province is better used for oblast, (they also had oblasts), region is better to be avoided because it also has a non-administrativ sense, district is already in use. I do not see any other solution than 'county'. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 18:20, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
The Soviet Union had oblasts, I don't think the Lithuanian SSR was subdivided into oblasts, probably okrugs (districts). I guess the objection to "county" is that there aren't any counts involved. Let's ask the person who changed it to apskritys in the first place. Markussep 21:03, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
County in Lithuanian is "grafystė" (from "grafas" - "count", for counties which are derrived from counts), sometimes "apygarda" (US counties, but even there usually "grafystė"); never "apskritis". Word Apskritis itself is translated differently at various places, sometimes county, sometimes region, sometimes province, sometimes left untranslated; therefore I think leaving untranslated and keeping redirects from all other possible namings (there are already redirects from all names with county, redirects from province and such can be made as well) is the best solution. As "apskritis" is actually not translatable in English probably, would be something like "roundship" or so drectly. I did same translation for another speciffically Lithuanian unit, seniunija, which I refer to usually as eldership on wikipedia (seniūnas is Lithuanian for elder), however I think for apskritis it would sound more stupid. Where it is translatable (e.g. rajonas - district, savivaldybė - municipality) translations are ok. As for LSSR, at first it was subdivided into unis similar to oblasts (sritis in Lithuanian), and those into small districts (rajonas), later larger districts were fomed and the sritys removed. See Administrative division of Lithuania for details. Usage of genitive is nothing special here, it is used even for translated names of subdivisons it seems, e.g. Latvian counties (should be districts btw) and Russian districts are named by genitive. DeirYassin 21:21, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Oficial sites of "Apskritis" administrations are using "county" to describe themselves in English ([1] , [2] look for english link in thise page). It is widely accepted way to call these entities. So my suggestion would be not to reinvent wheels here or dive into peculiarities of translating one or another word from Lithuanian.Dirgela 16:48, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
About your examples: the Counties of Latvia are far from complete, and need serious attention. Some use genitive, some use nominative. The units are called rajons, so I think you're right about preferring districts. Russian districts are named by Russian adjectives (e.g. Sergiyevo-Posadsky District, Moscow Oblast for Sergiyev Posad district), and I don't think that's right either. As you can see on the project page, an overwhelming majority uses English terms for foreign-language divisions. With reason, because who knows what a Kreis or Muhafazah is.
Back to Lithuania: I think we should use the nominative, and an English term for apskritis. Province doesn't sound bad. Region may be vague, but it's also used in France and Italy. Of course the Lithuanian name should be mentioned as well. Markussep 08:13, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't see the reason to write approximations though (province is provincija or sritis maybe, not apskritis); all redirects might be in place and people will understand from context that those are administrative divisions anyways, same is for oblasts or krais for example. As it was said previously, then Dalai Lama should be Pope of Tibet and Shah of Iran - King of Iran. Sultonate should be kingdom, emirate should be rulerdom, emir - ruler, czar - emperor, etc. Would be stupid, I think it is good to use translations where they are available and it is possible without loosing any meaning, and in such places as thi sit would be better IMO to use untranslated names. DeirYassin 16:22, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I've seen this pope of tibet argument before, and IMHO it doesn't apply here. The big difference is how well known the term is internationally. I hadn't heard of apskritis before I started editing on the Venta river. I'm Dutch, and you don't see Dutch names for administrative divisions in English wikipedia (like provincie, gemeente, graafschap), do you? You can't make me believe there is no suitable translation for apskritis. Besides, the apskritys themselves have no trouble finding English names for themselves. I just checked their websites: of all apskritys, Kaunas and Marijampole call themselves Region, Vilnius has no English website, and the other 7 call themselves County. I guess then County it is. Markussep 10:17, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

  1. province
    1. province (eng) = oblast (rus) = sritis (lit)
    2. province (eng) = provincija (rus) = provincija (lit)
  2. county
    1. The term county does not imply involvment of a count.
    2. grafystė = county.
    3. apskritis, translation on official sites = county:7, region:2
  3. nominative/genitive
    1. all 9 official sites use nominative

Translate apskritis with county is not unambigous, but might be better than not translating it at all. See how it is handled for other countries: County#Overview. Maybe Markus can add info for NL there and Latvia needs to be added? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 14:43, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

However, as there are even no unified official translation, then if we would do it this way, we'd have to translate 7 apskritys as "county", 2 apskritys as "region" (according to local official translations) and the last one maybe leave untranslated, which would be kinda illogical. And to apply the name "county" to counties which does not calls themselves "county" in English translations seems kinda illogical for me too. Grafystė, although came from grafas - count; does not necessarily involves count either as e.g. the counties of America are translated to as "grafystė". Sometimes they are translated to as "apygarda" though. DeirYassin 19:43, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
Once again - there is no question how to call "apskritis" in English - at least for Lithuanians. Those two County administrations have no English sites, so they are not calling there themselves in any way. There are only broken links to ...region.com. "Regions" are sometimes used for rural municipalities As the county administrations are branch of Lithuanian government I may offer you to look at the site of Lithuanian government. Type in "county" in search and you will find biography of one minister where it is clearly written that he once was working in Vilnius county administration. Look at website of any ministry in Lithuania and you will find the same - counties, counties, counties. It is a clear tradition to translate "apskritis" to "counties" in oficial documents and there is absolutely no need for changing this tradition. I would propose DeirYassin to persuade Lithuanian government that thay are mistaken by translating apskritis to county and then to come back here with this question. Dirgela 21:13, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There must be official documents about the subdivisions of Lithuania in English, at the European Union or United Nations. The CIA factbook and Encarta say counties. Markussep 12:51, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

I found some official documents, looking for apskritis:

I saw "province" in some older documents (1990s), but all recent ones say "county". Did you find anything already? Markussep 17:10, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)