Talk:Council of Jerusalem

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Sept. 2004 - July 2005


Contents

[edit] Addition of "Council" Template

Synods are not ecumenical councils. The Church did not exist until Penecost, so no Church council is possible until after Pentecost. The passage in Acts was produced by Luke. It was not a document produced by the Council.

If you discount the validity of Acts of the Apostles (your claim that Luke didn't accurately record the document produced by the Council), what is the basis for your claim that: "conclusion of the council liberated Christians from obligations of the Mosaic law"? Are you aware that that would be Antinomianism? You believe the Council rejected the Ten Commandments? What is your reference for that claim? Keep in mind: Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and No original research and Wikipedia:Citing sources. Just for the record, here is my reference: "Then the apostles and the elders, with the consent of the whole church, decided to choose men from among their members and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers, with the following letter: ‘The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the believers of Gentile origin in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that certain persons who have gone out from us, though with no instructions from us, have said things to disturb you and have unsettled your minds, we have decided unanimously to choose representatives and send them to you, along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.’" (Acts15:22-29NRSV)209.78.20.114 20:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I did not say that Luke didn't record it accurately, only that Acts of the Apostles was not a document produced by the council. We don't even know if Luke was present at the council or if he got his info from Paul. I am not doubting the validity of AoA as an historical document, only saying that it was not a product of the CoJ. We don't know if the CoJ produced any written document. The Church recognized the 10 Commandments because it was natural moral law, not because it was Mosaic law. If one claims that Christians obey the 10 Commandments because it is Mosaic law, then wouldn't one have to explain why Christians do not obey all of Mosaic law? The CoJ released all Christians from Mosaic law.

Your claim ("The CoJ released all Christians from Mosaic law") is unsupported POV and Antinomianism. Unless you can provide a cite. On the other hand, Acts of the Apostles states: "Then the apostles and the elders, with the consent of the whole church, decided to choose men from among their members and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers, with the following letter:" ... it then goes on to quote that letter. According to Acts, that letter was the result of the council, scholars commonly refer to it as the Apostolic Decree. Your claim is that it was not - cite your references, otherwise it's just undocumented POV and excluded from wikipedia. Until you can provide a reference for your claim, I'm reverting your original research edit.63.201.26.43 21:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

First, I do see your point about the letter Luke writes about in Acts. But to whom was the letter addressed? If the letter was not to the entire Church, but to only the people that Paul and Barnabas were visiting, then it was not an official document of the council. The Apostolic Decree, then, was oral and not written. If you have evidence that the letter in question was an official council document addressed to the entire Church, please produce it.

Second, Christians are not bound by Mosaic law. If you want proof, visit some Christians and ask them if they keep kosher. I see no need to cite a source for this. Mosaic law is a relic to Christians.

Your argument is with Acts of the Apostles. Provide a reputable reference for your claim that Acts is wrong or drop it, original research is not allowed on wikipedia. Also, you have a Wikipedia:Three-revert rule violation.64.169.6.113 04:56, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Your argument is with reality. You have a Wikipedia:Three-revert rule violation. Please answer....Do Christians keep kosher? What evidence do you have that the letter refered to in AoA was an official document of the council as opposed to a letter addressed only to those Paul and Barnabus were visiting?

Read Acts. For example, James challenging Paul about rumor of antinomianism: "Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself observe and guard the law. But as for the Gentiles who have become believers, we have sent a letter with our judgement that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having purified himself, he entered the temple with them, making public the completion of the days of purification when the sacrifice would be made for each of them." 21:24b-26NRSV If you have a reputable reference for your claim that the Council of Jerusalem rejected Mosaic Law, cite it. Otherwise, original research is not valid on wikipedia, see No Original Research for details. Acts of the Apostles records the Council of Jerusalem and the Letter (later called the Apostolic Decree) "written in their own hands" which announces the "unanimous agreement" of the Council. If you have a reputable reference that claims the Council of Jerusalem did otherwise, cite it.64.169.6.84 21:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Christians do not keep kosher anymore. They have not been bound by Mosaic law since the Council of Jerusalem. If you must have a source for something that requires only elementary observation, then so be it. Source number one...the Catholic encyclopedia under the entry judaizers. Source number two...the Catholic Answers magazine publication of This Rock, May 1994. See the article Heresey of the Month by Jimmy Akin, Director of Apologetics at Catholic Answers, editor of This Rock. Source number three....This Rock magazine June 1993. See the article titled Galatians by Antonio Fuentes, Professor of theology, University of Navarre, Spain.
Christians are no longer bound by Mosaic law. You mentioned that Christians obey the ten commandments. True, the tc were part of Mosaic law, but again, the reason Christians still obey the ten commandments is because they originate in natural moral law, not because they are mosaic law. Mosaic law has been a relic to Christians since the CoJ.
Also, AoA states that the letter in question went to Antioch. Luke doesn't tell us that any written decree went to the entire Church. If none did, then the letter to Antioch was a private letter and not an official council document. This would mean that the decree was oral, but not written. I don't know of any evidence of a written decree going to the universal Church. If you do, please share.
Is there any evidence that St. John the apostle convoked the council? Someone continues to add that.

Karl Josef von Hefele's (a Roman Catholic Bishop) commentary on canon II of Gangra in the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers [1]: "We further see that, at the time of the Synod of Gangra, the rule of the Apostolic Synod <<Council of Jerusalem>> with regard to blood and things strangled was still in force. With the Greeks, indeed, it continued always in force as their Euchologies still show. Balsamon also, the well-known commentator on the canons of the Middle Ages, in his commentary on the sixty-third Apostolic Canon, expressly blames the Latins because they had ceased to observe this command. What the Latin Church, however, thought on this subject about the year 400, is shown by St. Augustine in his work Contra Faustum, where he states that the Apostles had given this command in order to unite the heathens and Jews in the one ark of Noah; but that then, when the barrier between Jewish and heathen converts had fallen, this command concerning things strangled and blood had lost its meaning, and was only observed by few. But still, as late as the eighth century, Pope Gregory the Third 731 forbade the eating of blood or things strangled under threat of a penance of forty days." Of course, anyone who actually reads the article Council of Jerusalem would know this.209.78.22.70 20:23, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original Research

Claim #1: "If the council produced any official documents, they no longer exist."

Response: Acts 15 is the record of the council, the Letter of the Apostles and Elders to the Gentiles turning to God (commonly called the Apostolic Decree) is recorded in Acts 15:22-29, 21:24-26, and elsewhere, see the article for references. 209.78.22.70 22:18, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Claim #2: "the Apostolic Decree recorded in Acts of the Apostles 15:19-29 ... liberated Christians from the obligations of Mosaic law."

Response: Unless a Wikipedia:Reliable sources can be cited for the claim that the Council of Jerusalem liberated Christians from the obligations of Mosaic Law, it is original research and not applicable to wikipedia. According to the Apostolic Decree of the Council of Jerusalem, as recorded in Acts of the Apostles, Gentile Christians turning to God are requested to at least follow the restrictions listed in the Decree, which are part of the Mosaic Law. In addition, James the Just challenged Paul of Tarsus on this very subject in Acts 21:21, his response in Acts 21:24-26 shows that he did not believe, at least according to Acts, that the Mosaic Law had been eliminated for Christians. In conclusion: Where is the Wikipedia:Reliable sources for the claim that the Council of Jerusalem "liberated Christians from the obligations of Mosaic law." If it exists it should be added to the section Council_of_Jerusalem#Interpreting_The_Council.27s_decision. 209.78.22.70 22:18, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Acts of the Apostles was not an official document of the CoJ. Luke wrote it independently. The fact that Luke wrote about the CoJ doesn't mean that what he wrote was a document of the council. I once read a magazine article on the Second Vatican Council. I don't doubt the historical accuracy of the article, but that does not mean that it was an official document of the council.

"Acts 15 is the record of the council, the Letter of the Apostles and Elders to the Gentiles turning to God (commonly called the Apostolic Decree) is recorded in Acts 15:22-29, 21:24-26, and elsewhere, see the article for references. "

Records of councils are not official council documents. Besides, Acts is not the record of the council, it is a record of the council. Letters to a specific group of Christians are also not official Council documents. Official documents of Church Councils are statements addressed to the entire Church, produced by the council, stating all of the decisions and conclusions of the council and signed by the members of the council. Neither Acts nor the letter Acts mentions tries to do any of those things. Citing a source for what is so obvious is not possible. Nobody has done research to assert that Acts of the Apostles was not an official document of the CoJ because nobody has ever claimed that it was such. If you think it was, the burden of proof is on you.

A Church order not to eat blood or things strangled is not an indication that Mosaic law was still binding. These two things made up only the tiniest fraction of Mosaic law, and as you indicated by quoting Augustine, the Council only continued to enforce these two things so as to be charitable to the Judaizers. The CoJ liberated Christians from Mosaic law. The sources I used for this (the Catholic encyclopedia and the theology professor) are valid sources. I don't know how anybody could think this is original research, unless you want to ignore every valid source that confirms my assertion. The fact that James later changed his mind doesn't help your case. James alone had no authority.

And you still have not given any reason why you think John the apostle convoked the council. Talk about original research. You say that Acts 15 is the record of the council? Acts 15 doesn't even mention John.

Where does the Catholic Encyclopedia say: "the Apostolic Decree or the Council of Jerusalem liberated Christians from the obligations of Mosaic law"? If any Wikipedia:Reliable sources exist (Catholic Encyclopedia is a wikipedia reliable source), they should be added to the section Council_of_Jerusalem#Interpreting_The_Council.27s_decision.209.78.20.217 18:38, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Just for information, the Catholic Catechism on the Law: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3.htm#art1

"1968: The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law. The Lord's Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure,22 where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity."

"1971: To the Lord's Sermon on the Mount it is fitting to add the moral catechesis of the apostolic teachings, such as Romans 12-15, 1 Corinthians 12-13, Colossians 3-4, Ephesians 4-5, etc. This doctrine hands on the Lord's teaching with the authority of the apostles, particularly in the presentation of the virtues that flow from faith in Christ and are animated by charity, the principal gift of the Holy Spirit. "Let charity be genuine. . . . Love one another with brotherly affection. . . . Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints, practice hospitality."29 This catechesis also teaches us to deal with cases of conscience in the light of our relationship to Christ and to the Church."

"1973: Besides its precepts, the New Law also includes the evangelical counsels. The traditional distinction between God's commandments and the evangelical counsels is drawn in relation to charity, the perfection of Christian life. The precepts are intended to remove whatever is incompatible with charity. The aim of the counsels is to remove whatever might hinder the development of charity, even if it is not contrary to it."

"1975: According to Scripture the Law is a fatherly instruction by God which prescribes for man the ways that lead to the promised beatitude, and proscribes the ways of evil."

From Catholic Encyclopedia Antinomianism http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01564b.htm

"The sixth session of the Ecumenical Council of Trent was occupied with this subject and published its famous decree on Justification. The fifteenth chapter of this decree is directly concerned with Antinomian heresy, and condemns it in the following terms: "In opposition also to the cunning wits of certain men who, by good works and fair speeches, deceive the hearts of the innocent, it is to be maintained that the received grace of justification is lost not only by the infidelity, in which even faith itself if lost, but also by any other mortal sin soever, though faith be not lost; thereby defending the doctrine of the Divine law, which excludes from the King of God not only the unbelieving, but also the faithful who are fornicators, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners, and all others who commit deadly sins; from which, with the help of Divine grace, they are able to refrain and on account of which they are separate from the grace of Christ" (Cap. xv, cf. also Cap. xii). Also, among the canons anathematizing the various erroneous doctrines advanced by the Reformers as to the meaning and nature of justification are to be found in the following:

  • Canon 19: "If anyone shall say that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or that the Ten Commandments in no wise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema."
  • Canon 20: "If anyone shall say that a man who is justified and how perfect soever is not bound to the observance of the commandments of God and the Church, but only to believe; as if forsooth. the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observation of the commandments; let him be anathema."
  • Canon 21: "If anyone shall say that Christ Jesus was given of God unto men as a Redeemer in whom they should trust, and not also as a legislator whom they should obey; let him be an anathema."
  • Canon 27: "If anyone shall say that there is no deadly sin but that of infidelity; or that grace once received is not lost by any other sin, however grievous and enormous, save only by that infidelity; let him be anathema."

The minute care with which the thirty-three canons of this sixth session of the Council were drawn up is evidence of the grave importance of the question of justification, as well as of the conflicting doctrine advanced by the Reformers themselves upon this subject. The four canons quoted above leave no doubt as to the distinctly Antinomian theory of justification that falls under the anathema of the Church. That the moral law persists in the Gospel dispensation, and that the justified Christian is still under the whole obligation of the laws of God and of the Church, is clearly asserted and defined under the solemn anathema of an Ecumenical Council."

In all of the Cannons and decrees you cite above, there is no mention of "Law of Moses" or "Mosaic Law". They do mention the term "Law", but as I indicated above, there is a distinction Natural Moral law and Mosaic law. Since the CoJ confirmed that fact that non Jews were not bound by Mosaic law (circumcision and many other practices) as my sources indicate, I stand by my postion. I think it would help if we define terms. What do you mean by "Mosaic law"? Can you list any source that specifically states that Christians are still bound by Mosaic law? If you can, I will conceed your point.

And can we confidently say that the CoJ is not known to have produced any official document?

The Council of Jerusalem wasn't Ecumenical, so I'm deleting Template: Ecumenical council, see also Talk:First_Council_of_Nicaea#Council_of_Jerusalem_wasn.27t_the_first_Ecumenical_Council.3F. Stop POV pushing! See also Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. 64.169.7.142 20:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The subject of the status of Mosaic Law in Christianity is one of the great debates of Christianity. There is no need to debate it here, see Matthew 5:17 and Old_Testament#Christian_view_of_the_Law. 209.78.18.222 21:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Responding to request for Comment: There is a lot of commentary in this article and very few citations. Since this is evidentally a disputed topic, if this is a critical hot spot in history regarding the debate, it may be an appropriate place to list all sides of the discussion -- or link to another page that does so -- if one exists. For NPOV on a disputed subject, it is important to state all sides of the debate in the language of, and to the satisfaction of that camp and cite the most credible advocates of that POV. For example, I think if the above citations are used, some Protestant and Eastern Orthodox citations should be used as well, if they differ, to achieve NPOV. I hope this helps take the discussion to a more civil place. WALTR 03:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Looks like more original research

"This indicates rather forcefully that the apostles and presbyters believed the Holy Spirit had guided them, even to overriding Scripture when necessary. Genesis 17:9-14 regarding circumcision, and all of Leviticus 11 regarding keeping kosher has no more validity to the Church. This also demonstrates thee awareness of the apostles and presbyters that the Church was to rule itself, as promised by Jesus. In Matthew 16:18 and 18:18, first to Peter, then to the Church, is granted absolute legislative power by Jesus ("whatsoever you bind ... whatsoever you loose ..."). In John 16:13 Jesus promises "But when he, the Spirit of Truth, has come, he will teach you all truth ...""

Are there any Wikipedia: Reliable Sources for this interpretation that the Council of Jerusalem rejected portions of the Bible? 75.0.5.72 07:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 75.15.207.230 and Vandalism

The anonymous editor who deleted recent edits on the gournds of vandalism might care to engage in discussion. Much of the material was disputable :' A common interpretation'. Interpretion may not be necessary when the words in the text are explicit. I removed some anachronistic (fourth century) material and much that was only tangental to the topic. Referances to the Noahide covenant can be found in many places and the matter is marginal to the Council which, of course, was never called a Council at the time. I tried to defend each separate edit and would be gratified to receive by way of a response a reason why all, including the remarkable picture of a rainbow, were reinserted.

The fact is that the council is but one small part of the dispute as to how Jewish christianity was to be, a topic which, unfortunately lacks really good coverage. It appears of course under 'Judaisers' and 'New Perspective' (on Paul) but there is no real grappling with the major authors of the last fifty years who have tangled with it. This, rather than quotations from online sources which, it might be suspected, are included because of their availability, is what should be tackled. I am trying to prepare some work for it.

But fianlly, my opinions may be wrong, but they were not intended to vandalise an article which was overlong, full of extraneous material and lacking is serious engagement with the issues in which it should be engaged. Roger Arguile 11:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

PS The Primacy of Peter may be a very important issue but, again, it is marginal to the Council of Jerusalem. Of course, in an article on Peter the Council of Jerusalem may be cited in evidence one way or the other, but it does not work the other way around. I fear that this article is the subject of all manner of extraneous matter which, though vital elsewhere are not as significant as the problematic relationships between Paul and James and the difficulty in reconciling the two accounts. Roger Arguile 12:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The article has been stable for some time. It is rather rude to just barge in and delete more than half of the current article, in a crude fashion with many mistakes, and slap a cleanup tag on it. 64.149.83.99 20:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC) (Jean-Paul)

I noticed that the article had been stable. I appreciate the dismay of those who felt it to be adequate or even good. I understand the feelings. However, the work was done incrementally rather than in one go. It may be that the above unnamed editor would wish that notice be served on previous editors, as by using the talk page. My experience of this is that there is rarely a response.

Most of all, though, I should be glad to have pointed out to me the mistakes. I contributed the section on the Council in Paul of Tarsusand therefore had some experience, as well as this being a particular area of expertise. It is for that reason that I am concerned about the crudity of my edit and the many mistakes that it has thrown up. If I have worsened a good article I am very sorry; but discussion of the substance may reveal where I am in error. For this I should be grateful to read. Roger Arguile 09:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

As you say, let's take it incrementally, step by step, rather than just block deleting over half the current article. What is the first issue you propose changing? Let's see what the consensus is before the change is implemented. 64.149.82.195 20:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC) (Jean-Paul)
Also, above you appear to allude to some modern interpretations of the Council of Jerusalem, hopefully they are Wikipedia: Reliable sources, if so, please add them to Council_of_Jerusalem#Interpreting_the_Council.27s_decision. 64.149.82.195 22:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC) (Jean-Paul)

One serious problem with this article is that it has accumulated some very peculiar matieral, for example numerous allusions to Biblical Apocrypha whose inclusion are constantly justified because the Ethiopian Church includes them in its canon. I've done enough reading about the Ethiopian Church to be confident in writing that this event holds no special value to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church that I am aware of. (There is a priest of that faith who occasionally contributes to WP, so he could be consulted to verify my opinion.) Another problem is that this article -- at least at one point -- was heavily influenced by how the Jehovah Witnesses understand this event. Now I'm not opposed to including their opinions in this article -- actually, I welcome this -- but I think that their opinions need to be identified & presented as the POV of the Jehovah Witnesses. Lastly, I suspect that this article has been stable for so long not because it is well written, but because a number of reliable Wikipedians have shaken the dust from their sandals upon this article & walked away. -- llywrch 22:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, so I can't speak to their interpretation. As for your claim about justification by the Ethiopian Church, are you refering to the quote of Jubilees Chapter 7, verses 20-33? You don't believe that is relevant to the Apostolic Decree? 64.149.82.195 23:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC) (Jean-Paul)
Yes, about the book of Jubilees. I don't see what the relevance of that work has to this conference. -- llywrch 02:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
And I'd like to add: clearly there are a lot of interpretations of Acts 15 the Council of Jerusalem. That shouldn't be a problem, let's just document them, rather then asserting that any particular interpretation is more relevant than others. I believe that is the spirit of NPOV. 64.149.82.195 23:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC) (Jean-Paul)
I agree. However, as the article now stands, it appears to be a collection of odd-ball opinions that no significant group would endorse. (By this, I'm including the JH.) -- llywrch 02:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


I shall try to make myself plain for the benefit of the anonymous editor 64.149.82.195. I had already made incremental changes as he/she will see if she/he consults the history. Ech change was described and explained, albeit in short order. 64.149.82.195 may notice that there seems to be a view that the article, as it became when he removed my series of incremental edits, is not very ordered. I would be grateful if she/he would comment on the particular changes eg. that the Isaac Newton's contribution was marginal and that his biblical scholarship has not been recognised; that the Apostolic constitutions were late (4th century) etc. I have already covered these points and it is less than helpful for 64.149.82.195 to have removed them without argument and without defence of the previous status of the article. I appreciate that radical changes are likely to raise hackles - I had no intention to be rude - but the purpose of the exercise is to produce tightly written accurate and germane articles. This was none of these things. Substance please! PS I note that 64.149.82.195, while not having broken the revert rule comes close to offending the spirit. Roger Arguile 09:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The modern interpretations come in part from Christopher Rowlands, Christian Origins (sPCK 1985) Mr. Rowland was at the time Dean of Jesus College, Cambridge.I shall insert refs. shortly.Roger Arguile 09:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 75.15.206.73

We seem to have entered a realm in which unidentifiable editors regard resort to blanket reverts as a substitute for argument. Offedning against the revert rule comes close. but much more important than this is the failure to advance any, let alone coherant arguments against the painstaking incremental work that had been done. I note that one administrator pointed out the possibility that the article might have been stable because some wp editors had walked away from it having shaken off the dust from their feet. I can sympathise. Ho0wever, could I get those who find it preferable to revert than to offer constructive argument to explain how the extraneous material can be justified. It also helps if people register. The rest of us do not now whether the various anonymous edits are being done by the same person using different machines. Nor are we able to communicate directly via the user talk pages. WP is open to all, but a level playing field, as we say in England, is desirable. I want to add some material on the nature of the Judaisers but at present the revert squall is making progress more difficult. Roger Arguile 10:08, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Reach consensus on talk first before major edits to an article that has been stable for some time. 75.15.206.73 10:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC) (Jean-Paul)

I shall now defer to an administrator. 75.15.206.73 still supplies no arguments in order to achieve the consensus she/he so earnestly desires. She/he has received some explanation from an administrator as to why the article was stable. No positive arguments have been put forward against my edits. This is now no longer a matter for me. Roger Arguile 10:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I am an Admin, & both of you have broken the 3RR rule. Normally I would suggest that both of you take a 24 hour break from this article, then try to discuss it. However, I note that Roger Arguile has put forth some arguments to support his edits, while the anon editor at 75.15.206.73 has only pleaded that he should not make these edits because "the article has been stable for some time". Citing policy -- such as "stable versions" or the 3RR rule only carry the day if it makes sense to prudent & reasonable people. Common sense dictates that this reference to policy only matters if it can be shown that the previous version has been persuasively defended on the Talk page -- but reading the above, I see no sign of this. And blocking both of you for breaking this rule would solve nothing. I'd like to assume good faith on behalf of both parties, so I ask the anon editor to provide a different argument defending that stable version, & engage in a discussion with Roger -- otherwise I'll have to ask that person to stop editting this article. -- llywrch 17:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I supply a different argument:

In his fourth revision in 24 hours, as far as I can tell, Roger has made the following bulk changes:

1. removed a disambiguation notice

2. replaced the intro paragraph with a paragraph that provides too much detail for the intro, much of the intro as it now exists is about Galatians, which Roger himself notes: "Whether this was the same meeting as that described in Acts is not universally agreed."

3. replaced "a common interpretation" with "the purpose", as if the purpose of the council is well defined

4. removed the section title: "Apostolic Decree"

5. removed the wikilink for Western version of Acts

6. removed reference to the Didache

7. removed discussion of the Primacy of Simon Peter

8. gutted the section on Interpretation, removing references to Justin Martyr, Origen, Augustine, Metzger, Newton, Jubilees, Apostolic Constitutions; maybe some of these should go, but all of them? discussion was just beginning above when Roger unilaterally acted

9. removed several existing categories: Category:New Testament chapters, Category:Christianity, Category:Christian theology

10. restored the link JersualemCouncil.org which is about the Jerusalem Council aka Sanhedrin, not the Christian Council of Jerusalem

11. added a second Christianity template at the bottom of the article

All of this has been done without gaining consensus first on the talk page, as requested. 68.123.72.97 20:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC) (Jean-Paul)

This is not a defense of your preferred version of this article. You have simply listed all of the changes that you believe he has made. Why do object to them?
BTW, are you the same person who is posting from IP address 75.15.206.73? I had assumed you were two different individuals, but your opening in the post above -- "Alright, I supply a different argument" -- leads me to suspect that you might be the same person. -- llywrch 22:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, Why do I object to these changes? In order: #1 Disambiguation is useful; #2 Intro paragraph has too much detail, too much about Galatians which is not universally agreed to be a description of the Council of Jerusalem; #3 The purpose of the council is not well defined and subject to different interpretations, it is POV to state "the purpose" as if there is only one interpretation of "the purpose"; #4 Apostolic Decree is highly relevant to an article on the Council of Jerusalem, there should be a section with that title; #5 Western Version of Acts should be wikilinked, most readers will have no idea what that is; #6 Didache and Apostolic Constitutions should at least be mentioned, they are clearly related; #7 Primacy of Simon Peter should be mentioned, highly relevant to this council; #8 At the minimum, Augustine's interpretation of the council should be mentioned, ditto for the modern day Metzger, somewhere it should be mentioned that Origen and the Apostolic Constitutions place the Apostolic Council (another name for this council) at Antioch; #9 Categories are important to Wikipedia; #10 Invalid links should be removed; #11 No need for a second copy of the Christianity template, especially at the end. All in all, a very sloppy edit. Too many changes were made in one fell swoop, which is why I requested that consensus be gained on talk first. 68.126.20.47 03:22, 11 May 2007 (UTC) (Jean-Paul)

(side note not directly relevant to issue: Wikipedia does not handle dynamic IP's well, for the purposes of clarification, I will tag all my responses here with Jean-Paul)

I am clear that John Paul regards my edits as sloppy. What I am less clear about is what the arguments are since they have been telegraphed rather than articulated. Just to take one or two examples: the clarity of the connexion between the Council and for example the Didache and the Apostolic Constitutions may have to be spelt out for those of us who need it showing. The Didache has been described as the work of an isolated Christian Community in Syria, admittedly fairly contemporary though no one can be sure. It would have to be shown that it had any relevance to the Council. The same goes for Augustine and Metzger.The situation may be different with reagrd to a claim that a (the?) Council took place in Antioch, but it is better to deal with the matter by explaining what the differences of view are rather than by merely quoting. I think also JP is confusing me edits with those of others. I did not insert a second Christiantiy template. Nor did I edit all in one swoop. As to the introduction, JP may not be aware but the nub of the debate is the relationship between Paul's account of events and those in Acts. That is why Galatians is so important. As to setting out the purpose of the Council, that is stated in Acts. The use of expressions like 'common interpretation' are discouraged without references to support them. But I am not sure of the way forward since there seems to be no agreement.

I am sorry that I mistunderstood the three R rule. I had thought that I was merely restoring what had been painstakingly inserted, leaving it to others, as I wrote, after JP had resisted my requests for explanation. But I accept the rebuke and the explanation and offer my apologies to the Administration. Roger Arguile 15:08, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Just checking again: contrary to what JP writes, the Decree is mentioned in full and the Western Text is again mentioned. If it is not wikilinked., I don't think that this was any of my doing.

Yet again, the primacy of Peter is regrded by JP as highly relevant, but he does not say why or note the point I made earlier about the Council being relevant to the Primacy of Peter but that it does not work the other way round. Peter's primary is not an issue raised either in Acts or Galatians.

And again I am not sure why Metzger is so important. Those who deal with the issues of Pauline vs. Jewish Christianity are such as Rowlands, Dunn, Wright, Davies, Sanders, all mentioned in the references but not referred to in the text. Roger Arguile 15:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

And again, removal of categories was, I fear collatoral damage not intended by me. Roger Arguile 15:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


Roger wrote: "I did not insert a second Christiantiy template."

[2]

Roger wrote: "the nub of the debate is the relationship between Paul's account of events and those in Acts. That is why Galatians is so important."

The article is Council of Jerusalem, not the relationship between Paul's accounts and Acts accounts. Galatians is important, but not in the intro. For example, NIV titles Acts 15 as "The Council at Jerusalem", Galatians 2:1-10 as "Paul Accepted by the Apostles". Why? Because it is disputed whether or not Galatians 2:1-10 is an account of the Council of Jerusalem.

Roger wrote: "If it [Western version of Acts] is not wikilinked., I don't think that this was any of my doing."

[3]

Roger wrote: "Peter's primary is not an issue raised either in Acts or Galatians."

Peter's primacy is an issue in the interpretation of the account in Acts.

Roger wrote: "... removal of categories was, I fear collatoral damage not intended by me."

Ah, collatoral damage. I see.

(Jean-Paul)75.14.214.92 18:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it is very important to move beyond the present animosity. Repetition of inadequately stated arguments unfortunately does not do so. Nor does sarcasm. Roger Arguile 18:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] top posted question

Are there any other data on this alleged event, appart from the "New Testament"? 82.46.232.9 12:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Origen Against Celsus 8.29.
Also, Apostolic Constitutions 6.3.12: "But because this heresy [ Judaizers ] did then seem the more powerful to seduce men, and the whole Church was in danger, we the twelve assembled together at Jerusalem ..." 68.123.72.233 20:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

If the answer being sought is, do we have any independent sources for the Council of Jerusalem other than the NT, the answer is No. Origen dates around 200, the Apostolic Constitutions were written in the fourth century. The New Testament was freely available by Origen's time and we have no reason to think that he had any other source than the NT. Roger Arguile 16:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Except that Origen's and Apostolic Constitution's versions are different than Acts of the Apostles, in which case they must have gotten it wrong or they had other sources. Given that the accuracy of Luke-Acts is doubted by some, see for example Census of Quirinius, other accounts, such as Origen and Apostolic Constitutions become significant, even though they are of later dates. Also, though Apostolic Constitutions was compiled in the fourth century, it is composed of material from earlier time periods, for example, the Didache. 75.15.205.122 16:16, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I have seen nowhere any contention that O and AC were written from other sources. If such sources exist, it would be helpful to know what they are. Indeed, O and AC are diffferent in some respects from the Acts, though only marginally. To take a biblical analogy. Some people believe that there is a lost source common to Matthew and Luke. Those who believe in it however, have reached their conclusion only by comparing the two and determining than neither can have copied from the other. Not everyone is convinced by this. In the case of O and AC, no one has ever postulated a source other than Acts - the Matthew/Luke controversy depends on the existence of identical versions in which there are a few variations, not an issue here). O and AC do not frankly become reliable independent sources when their marginal differences from Acts do not in any way suggest the existence of lost sources. The question asked was whether there is any 'data': even 75.15.205.122 does not suggest that O and AC are primary sources; either they are secondary or they have simply interpreted Acts. So the answer still remains No. Roger Arguile 11:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC) Could editors please register and give their names; otherwise as above there is a suspicion that one person may be using different identifiers. I may be suspicious but, as we can see, it has happened before.Roger Arguile 12:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Origen Against Celsus 8.29 and Apostolic Constitutions 6.3.12 are significantly different from Acts 15. Metzger cites P45 as a possible source for Origen. 75.14.223.27 18:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting about Metzger; not convinced without argument about the differences. Once agin, it is so helpful to know names of editors. checkming to see if this is part of a continuing conversation or whether a new voice has entered, is a little tedious. Roger Arguile 08:58, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

PS I am not sure what point is being made about p45. P45 is, as I understand it, a New Testament document, of the third century which omits the words 'and from fornication' which Origen also omits. If Origen derives his information from p45 then he is deriving it from a version of the NT, not from any other source. It could be that the dependence is one way round, or the other. In neither case is there a non-blblical source which contributes to our understanding of the Council. So the answer remains No. Roger Arguile 17:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Denominationalist and Catholics take note

There is no one overseeing body established at the Jerusalem Counsel. If ever there had been an opportunity to do so this would have been it. There is NO where in the New Testament where authority is given for a single organizational or figure head of the church. The only heads of the church are the eldership. Angry Aspie 02:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I think this argument has been rehearsed fairly often without either side backing down. AA may be sure of her/his views; those who note that Jesus would build his church on Peter, the rock, have theirs. they would say that AA is wrong. However, a comfortable armchair is required by all who want to read of the text-throwing exchanges of Christians. As a friend of mine wrote, Christians do not need lions to be thrown to when they have each other. AA can be assured that what she/says has been known and disputedfor a very long time,.Roger Arguile 14:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

This article has a bunch of footnotes but no actual references. I tagged it for this. I hope someone can improve on this article because it is a significant event in Christian history. Kristamaranatha (talk) 07:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? For example, you can tag claims you think need a reference with Template:cn. 75.15.206.39 (talk) 18:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)