Talk:Council of Constance

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Last paragrahp needs work, since it contains a) sentences which could suggest that Poland was part of Empire (and anyone here except for Mrs. user:H.J. agrees that it wasn't, right) b) it contains information which doesn't really belong to entry (it should be removed and put link instead).

In few days i will remove irrlevant information and correct incorrect infos: eg: regents of empire (!!!) (They never use that title!!!! and they were regents because of they authority as archibishops, not because anything else!)

Szopen -- I agree with you, and think it would be nice to see this article well-written and perhaps even mentioning why the council was called and its ecclesiatical repercussions. However, I think maybe you are too close to the subject to be objective. In 1414, Poland is generally considered to be part of the Empire (at least by westen historians. However, that does not mean that the relationship between Polish king and Emperor was what Fr. user:H.J. implies. It was much more like the relationship between the kings of France and England and the emperor. Still, maybe it's a good time to leave things, unless you can back up your changes with sources we all can read (i.e., ones not in Polish -- sorry!). That way, we can avoid yet another German-Polish edit war. ;-) JHK

I have only Polish books, since if i would buy any English ones, i would be in debts above my ears. I have no access to any English books or to German ones, but i believe that facts are the same no matter in what language they are stated (of course, with remembering of language subtleties like different meaning of words). Which means most sources other provide here i cannot read. Nor many other Poles unless they would will bought it for heavy money.

Well, my source here is Antoni Prochaska, first edition in 1898, reedited and published1996: (page 29 in second edition)

it happened July 13(1) on metting of the nation(2), which was presided by king Sigismund(3). ...king Sigismund... asked both sides if they recognize supremacy(4) of Roman state. While Teutons with many compliments expressed their will to follow verdict of Sigismund, Polish (5)...(envoy) ... expressed (in very polite form) sovereignity of (Polish) king and crown from Empire...

(1) i guess 1415, but Prochaska style is awafull so i am not sure (2) in Prochaska original: nacji, which in Polish could mean "nation" (second form of nacja: kogo czego nacji) or plural nations (nacje, again kogo czego nacji), and again from context it is hard to see what Prochaska had on thought (3) Roman Emperor, right. (4) Suzerenity, superiority, supremacy (zwierzchnia wladza) (5) i have no idea how rzecznik could be transalted into English. Speaker, spokesman, envoy, representative.

So, as i understand it, on the Council of Constantia Poles clearly stated that they do not consider themselves part of Empire and they consider themselves independent state. If i am right, and i believe i am, if they do not consider themselves part of EMpire, if they do not obey any order of Emperor, and they behave like not just merely independent but like sovereign state, then they were part of Empire in the same part as England or France. If it is generally believed that France and England were part of Empire, then, well, i withdraw, go under table and bark out what i wrote before. But this would mean that term Empire means merely all crhistian states of Empire which recognise moral authority of Emperor as a head of christianity. I respect rights of historians to have their opinion, but i believe that they can't imply any other meaning of belonging of Poland to Empire.

However, i am, yes, biased and non-objective here. That's why i don't consider myself able (in contrast to entries about Polish history) to write anything about that - especially that only monography i have i a book from 100 years ago (of course i have a lot about that Council in other books). I am however opposed to:

The primacy entitled them to rank as princes of the empire. From 1572 they held authority as regents of the empire during an interregnum.

because i don't know about using by them titles of princes of the empire, and they hold title of regentds of kingdom not empire, and not automatically because they were primaces, but because it was decided after many debates that they have biggest authority to be regents. That's why i want to erase these. Is also Concordate proper translation of nationes?

Note however that i do consider myself good enough to write about history of Poland, since i believe that many excellent books weren't ever translated into English, many findings and articles, and i feel that demanding only English books is like demanding of ignoring anything that any non-English writer wrote on the topic. I believe that Polish books are as reliable (and even better, sicne i have seen so many errors in books translated from English into Polish about our history) as English ones.

szopen

While I don't know much about the history of Poland, I have to agree with szopen in principle, that books written in Polish should be a valid source of Polish history, if not preferred since in many cases they may be primary source material. I know this is an English wikipedia, and I think the articles should be written in English, but I also think the project will be much poorer if sources in other languages are forbidden, especially where the other language is the "original" or is likely closer to the facts. --Wesley

I'm sorry -- did I just become incomprehensible overnight? I didn't say that the sources in Polish were invalid -- far from it. However, since the only people I know of (besides Piotr the linguist) who read Polish are those deeply embroiled in the German-Polish edit wars, I think an objective review that includes those secondary sources is impossible. For example, I absolutely trust szopen et al. on their veracity in citing Polish language sources -- but I don't know that those sources are not as lousy as the ones often cited by Fr. user:H.J.. If there are people out there who a) have some background in pre-modern history; b) read Polish; and 3) are unbiased, then they need to speak up. As it is, there are a bunch of people who read German and, more importantly for this case, Latin. There are also probably English translations of the decrees of the C of C. Since those are the most important documents for figuring out this thing, there really is no need to cite secondary sources in Polish. Does that make sense? JHK

Well, is it English-language encyclopedia, or Encyclopedia for English people?

Anyway, i understand (my God!) that someone can think that i am biased :). I, however, can't think about any Polish source which would be more scientific than written by professional historians from best Polish universities (i am not speaking for Prochaska, since he is long time dead, but anyway, his work was republished by UJ). I think also, that any professional historian working on central-eastern medieval Europe has to at least heard about Strzelczyk, Labuda, Lowmianski and others i use as sources for my information (or Zakrzewicz or Grodecki for that matter although they are dead for quite a long time).

And yes, what JHK had written does make sense, although i don't feel comfortable with that. Anyway, ok, i won't change that article and i will wait for someone unbiased (but i believe that it would be hard to find such a person). szopen

In a moment of clarity, it occurred to me to go from complaining about a bad article mostly plagiarized from the Catholic Encyclopedia and think about Constance.

This was a MAJOR council. It was held to deal with a couple of major events -- the Avignon Papacy and the resulting Schism, and the threat of the heresies of Wyclif and Hus. It was also hugely important for the conciliarists and the development of ideas of ecclesiastical authority. None of these were initially mentioned in the first draft.

I would be surprised, but then, the person who plagiarized out of context also thought that Piccolomini's most important job was as an imperial secretary and provincial backwater bishop. JHK

I would happy to see good article about Council of Constance. This was first time when Polish delegates participate in matters so important to christendom, so anything i have here is totally biased and one can have impression that without Poles Council would not have any sense. I have a lot about Falkenberg controversies, matters with Hus, union with orthodoxy and other things in which Poles were crucial, and almost nothing about everything else (Except for few sentences like: "It was held to deal with a couple of major events -- the Avignon Papacy and the resulting Schism, and the threat of the heresies of Wyclif and Hus. It was also hugely important for the conciliarists and the development of ideas of ecclesiastical authority.") Eager to see more. szopen

[edit] antipope?

While I agree that Catholics have the right to call whoever they want "antipope" is it really fitting for an encyclopedia? To me (not a catholic) all three were Popes, and I to see "antipope" makes me feel like I'm reading a religious document. And as I recall, weren't all the Popes calling eachother the Antichrist? Perhaps we should call him Antichrist John XXIII. Citizen Premier 13:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV and accuracy problems

There is a POV and accuracy problem with the repeated claims that early sessions of the Council are considered invalid. That they are invalid is only one point of view, a POV which was more popular a hundred years ago than it is today. That the Catholic Church teaches that they are invalid is just plain wrong, for there is no such Church teaching. The best one can say is that the old Catholic Encyclopedia claims that those sessions are invalid.

Any comments before I start editing? -- Cat Whisperer 01:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Do source this change you detect in Catholic teaching. Catholic teachings are not "popular" in the sense you seem to suggest: they are orthodox or they are not. The validity or not of the council's sessions in retrospect should not affect any of the facts as they took place. --Wetman 05:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Here are some references for this: