Talk:Cossacks/Archive 1

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Archive 1, Cossack

Contents

Old talk

The original article here simply said "From an old encylcopedia". It is obviously from the 1911 EB article, available at http://63.1911encyclopedia.org/C/CO/COSSACKS.htm, so I am editing the remark accordingly. -- Jmabel 00:27, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Where did you found this bullshit? What about neutral point of view? Can you tell me some valuable sources (books or internet resources)? 62.138.55.46 18:20, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"where?" - the references are in the text.
"NPOV?"
  • if you have something to contibute, you are welcome.
  • if you know or suspect that something specific is wrong, you are welcome to correct or raise doubt.
  • if you think it is bullshit and have nothing more to say, GFY. Mikkalai 20:17, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have found that in this article (there are also other) Cossack (in meaning warrior on ukrainian territory, Zaporizhzhya) and Kazak (rusified offsprings of Cossack in Imperial Russia. They lived in Don, Kuban, Terek, Astrakhan, Ural, Orenburg, Siberian, Semiryechensk, Amur, and Ussuri voiskos) often used in the same meaning. It seems to me that some peoples means that Cossacks were nation. This is wrong! Today there are no Cossacks but there are Kazaks. My english is not good enought to write such a stuff but i will try to find some sources in Internet and will post here. 62.159.105.210 11:51, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

and Jews

I removed the following piece:

The Cossacks are known of of anti-Jewish pogroms, both in Poland (Chmielnicki Massacres) and in Imperial Russia.

It appears that this phrase mixes oranges and orangs here. While it is generally true, but it is not so easy. While the case of Chmielnicki is clear, in Imperial Russia the main History of cossacks article claims that Jews were not allowed to settle in the cossack territory, hence we can speak about anti-Semitism in this case, but not about pogroms. Mikkalai 18:44, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The pogroms by Chmelnytskyj and his cossacks (and the haidamakas) was largely a part of the Ukrainian-Polish war (1648–57) [1] where the jews were mainly on the side of the polish opressors. Read about it here: [2] Just to shed light on history. (Golly)
Cossacks were oppressing Jews in the twentieth century. An elderly Jewish WWI veteran of my acquaintance spent his childhood years in constant fear of the Cossacks. As a young man, he encountered a Cossack attempting to kill an elderly man. Such atrocities were commonplace during the period in which the Cossacks had political power. He killed the Cossack in question, then had to flee from the country in order to avoid charges of murder. I don't know if this was institutionalized, but this article practically ignores (and in fact discounts) the xenophobia the Cossacks showed toward Jews. --JesseBHolmes 16:29, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Strange. Ukranian cossackship has been disbanded by Catherine II in 18th century, and cossacks had a choice of relocation or becoming serfs. I wonder which Cossack was threatening the life of that Jewish WWI veteran. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.183.180.38 (talk • contribs)

--- The sentence removed: Most present-day Cossacks live in or near the Ukraine.

As it stands, the sentence is meaningless and hardly verifiable. First of all, "cossacks" is not a nationality, therefore it is difficult to count them; no census data of today has an item "cossack". Second, the number of those who can consider themselves as descendants of cosacks in Russia vastly greater than in Ukraine, for various reasons. Mikkalai 01:10, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Agreed, I think it is fair comment however to say that the Cossacks evolved in the Ukraine despite the fact that they were employed by the Russian authorities to carry out almost all their invasions, raids, conquests and pogroms resulting in their dispersal throughout the former Soviet areas and even beyond.210.118.226.38 08:58, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There were also "neo-Cossack" movements in Ukraine during the chaos following the revolution. I don't know whether any particular ones necessarily had anything to do with real Kozachchyna, but it is likely that some of them were responsible for anti-semitic actions. I read a mention of this some time ago in either Subtelny's or Magocsi's big history book, but I can't remember any details at the moment. —Michael Z. 2006-08-01 06:10 Z

The pogroms of the post-WW1 time had little to do with Ukrainian cossacks as, at the time, there were practically none remaining of the authentic ones. First of all, several groups of Don Cossacks that initally fought on the red side switched to the Polish side during the 1920 Polish invasion of Ukraine and were especially notorious for pogroms. Especially bad was the band of Vadim Yakovlev. Similarly cruel was the band of Nikifor Grigoriev (it is hard to classify him by cossackdom or even ideology). Also, during the Bolshevik counter-offensive, the huge army of Kuban Cossacks fought on the red side. According to Isaac Babel's 1920 Diary, a stunning war documentary, jews suffered mostly from looting from the hands of "Red" Kuban Cossacks and an outright murder and pogroms from Yakovlev's, Grigoriev's Cossacks as well as from the Poles themselves. Of course one might imagine that when Red Cossacks "just" looted, people where also murdered. Hard to imagine a looting band of armed men somehow caring for the lives of those they loot. On the other hand, perhaps, the latter ones where indeed "less bad". --Irpen 06:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Ataman

An anon added: or more likely derived from "ataman" in Turkish. What does in mean in Turkish, when did the word enter Turkish language; what is the relation with Hauptmann? Mikkalai 18:39, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)


Jew hatred is not adequately refelected in the Cossak entry:

"Khmelnytsky told the people that the Poles had sold them as slaves "into the hands of the accursed Jews". With this as their battle-cry, the Cossacks killed a large number of Jews during the years 1648–1649. The precise number of dead may never be known, but the decrease of the Jewish population during that period is estimated at 50,000 to 200,000, which also includes deaths from diseases and Tatar imprisonment." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohdan_Chmielnicki

From: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/heritage/episode5/documents/documents_11.html

Report of a Massacre
Nathan Hannover's account of the Chmielnicki revolt in Poland and Ukraine (1648) was based on his own experiences and on eyewitness accounts. As evidenced by this excerpt, his chronicle included descriptions of the many atrocities that were perpetrated during the uprising. Many Jewish communities adopted the custom of reading from this account during the three-week mourning period preceding the Ninth of Av, the holiday commemorating the destruction of the Temple.

[Those] who could not flee . . . were slain and were martyred with unnaturally cruel and bitter deaths. Some of them had their skins flayed off them and their flesh was flung to the dogs. The hands and feet of others were cut off and they were flung unto the roadway where carts ran over them and they were trodden underfoot by horses. And some of them had many nonfatal wounds inflicted on them, and were flung out into the open so that they should not die swiftly but should suffer and bleed until they died, and many were buried alive. Children were slaughtered in their mothers' bosoms, and many children were torn apart like fish. They ripped up the bellies of pregnant women, took out the unborn children, and flung them in their faces. They tore open the bellies of some of them and placed a living cat within the belly and left them alive thus, first cutting off their hands so that they should not be able to take the living cat out of the belly . . . and there was never an unnatural death in the world that they did not inflict upon them.

Nathan Nata Hannover, Abyss of Despair, trans., Abraham J. Mesch (Bloch Publishing Co., 1950).

There's plenty more, of course. Additional context to show the context shows that this cruelty was not exceptional. http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_49_-_The_Jews_of_Poland.asp http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=808&letter=C

Even today, one can see their legacy linger. http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/23503/edition_id/467/format/html/displaystory.html

Sincerely, rmbraun@mac.com70.105.172.11 16:19, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Some thoughts

I'm reading Mikhail Sholokhov's 'And quiet flows the Don' and checked out this article to get some historical context. Would it be possible to add in the role of the Don Cossacks in WWI? That's the main focus of the book and it is almost entirely absent in this article.

Also -- could some info be added about the "mercenary" status of the Cossacks until WWI? That's the impression I get from Sholokhov, how true is it to reality?

I think the book itself should be mentioned in the article, along with Polish and Ukrainian works (unfortunately I'm not too familiar with them) It's quite a jumble with sorting out the Polish, Ukrainian, and Russian (not to mention Soviet) versions of history and trying to make everything mostly fair and impartial.

You're to be commended for your efforts! Matthias5 23:24, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Ukrainian Cossacks vs Russian Cossacks?

Can anyone advise the difference between these two difference Cossacks?

Do they only differ in living place?

User - Dm526 26 Jun 2005

Cossacks and their communities originated in the territory of Ukraine and came to live in many places throughout the Russian Empire. The earlier Zaporozhian Cossacks are associated with Ukraine and are a symbol of the Ukrainian Nation (see bulava, Coat of arms of Ukraine), but many later Cossacks are associated with different parts of the Russian Empire (e.g. Don Cossacks, Kuban Cossacks). Overall, they aren't strictly Russian or Ukrainian, but accepted members from many nations (including as far away as the British Isles, I believe). I guess they're not considered an ethnic group, but a sort of nation, or pseudo-nation (can anyone clarify?). —Michael Z. 2005-06-25 19:08 Z

That's not exactly so, the formation of the Don Cossack Voisko was independent of the Ukrainian Cossacks. Don Cossacks are somewhat younger than Zaporozhian, but they are not their offspring: they were all the disenchanted folks coming down from Muscovy, Novgorod and Tatar kahanates, runaway serfs and their likes. The bulk was Moscovites. The Don Voisko formed during 16-17 centuries. Most of later Russian Cossacks, like Terek, Orenburg, Baikal, Amur, Astrahan, Yaik Cossacks are the offspring of the Don Cossacks. As far as I know, the Kuban and the Black Sea Cossacks are the offspring of the Zaporoshians. Today, Ukrainian Cossack identify themselves as Ukrainians and Russian Cossack - almost exlusively as Russians. In the 16-18 centuries they really were like pseudo-nations. Gaidash 29 June 2005 22:03 (UTC)
I am not sure their "pseudonational" self-identification only lasted until the 18th century. I don't have a link handy, but I saw the article that states it was much longer. See my post below. -Irpen June 29, 2005 22:30 (UTC)
anyone except for jews can be a cossack. i have a chilean friend who works as a journalist in russia. after a long day and night of drinking with the cossacks, while on assignment, they declared him a cossack --GregLoutsenko 12:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You got it a bit wrong. Only a Christian could be a cossack. mikka (t) 16:13, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
i am not so sure, i denfinetly remember my friend say that anyone except for jews can be a cossack, although they probably were just making it clear to my friend they dont like jews. never mind--GregLoutsenko 16:26, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jews could be cossacks, or rather, people with jewish ancestry could be cossacks. Cossack identy was strongly based on their slavic ancestry and christianity. Their antisemitism was not racial but religios and cultural. Jews who converted or were descendents of christian jews could settle with the cossacks. Of course they were not jews in a religious sense but by their ethnicity and were not regarded as jews. Also it should be mentioned that things changes through history and between places. Relations among people are not consistent through time and space. Have a look here for example [3](Dynamok)

Antisemitism was always strong among Cossacks, pretty much all of them. That rather than anything else explains the "except jews" remark. As for Cossacks being considered a separate ethnic group, many Cossacks do consider themselves as such. At least that's what I read. In pre-Revolution census to the question "nationality", which in Eastern Europe usually means ethnicity, Don Cossacks wrote "Cossack" rather than "Russian". -Irpen 03:59, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)

In question about offspring of cossacks, most of us are of Zaporozhian descent. However in our records and songs there was not one time that we reffered to ourselves as Ukranian (in terms of nationality) but more as Rus'ian (i.e. Russian). This is also true relating to the conflicting Russian languange spelling of the word Казак or Козак. We have never reffered to ourselves as the latter version, especially when one takes into the account that the word was deliberately chosen to be read from left to right and from right to left equally. Moreover this might be completely irrelevent but have a look at this article concerning the gene pool of Russians. It turns out that in terms of Slavic blood we are the "purest" and almost identical to the Don Cossacks and others whilst the western Ukranians are in fact closer to Tatars (so that's one nationalist myth about our origin down the toilet) Kuban kazak 12:49, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Dear Kuban kazak, please do not mix history and politics. This spoils the articles. If you would like to add some information, please cite sources.--AndriyK 21:42, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I did not mix history with politics, all I did was to give a reference about the genetic make up of our people, which proves contradictory to some other people's hypothesis on the topic. I can't be blamed for what I am - Russian, Cossack, descenedent of the Zaporozhians. The fact that in blood we are almost identical to our Don breathen only strengthens our version of history that both Don and Zaporozhia existed as different Cossack entities because the latter was at least formally under Polish control. Apart from that there are several accounts of history when we had combined raids against common foes, however none to saying that we ever went to war against each other. Also why did you remove my information about modern Cossack organisation?

Kuban kazak 14:30, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I removed it because it contained not neutral propaganda-like points.
How does the 1988 law a propaganda point? All I did was to continue the ancient history of the Cossack organisation and modern one. Убирай сколько хочешь все равно назад верну, это друг мой некрасиво и неумно. А раз уж о нетральности пошел разговор то учти Запорожская Сечь самоликвидировалась и мы ДОБРОВОЛЬНО переселились на Кубань, ненадо лжи о том что мол Матушка нас насильно уничтожила. Может вначале прежде чем о нас писать историю столо нас, Казаков, спросить?Kuban kazak 20:10, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
I am a cossack as well, but not Kuban cossack. But I do not think that anyone should ask you or me when writing articles. Articles should be based upon reliable sources. The legend about "self-liquidation" of Zaporizhzhia Sich might be very popular among Kuban Cossacks, but it has nothing to do with the historical reality.
For once I agree with you, partly, the historical reality was that the Sich was compleately useless, no borders to guard, fertile land being abused, serb colonisers being slaughtered...certaintly not the most proudest chapter in our history... Вот [статья], кстати почитайте что там люди ниже написали очень интересно.Kuban kazak 21:12, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Во-первых начнем с причин разгона сечи. Первой и безусловно основной причиной разгона сечи было восстание Пугачева, поставившее государство на грань развала. В 1773-1774 годах сечевики толпами шли к Пугачеву. Когда проводивший дознание по делу Пугачева граф Никита Панин доложил Екатерине II, что самозванец намеревался из заволжских степей идти на Сечь, чтобы подымать казаков, императрица решила, что с приднепровской вольницей надо что то делать, пока какой-нибудь новый самозванец не взбунтовал Сечь. Второй причиной было заключение Кучук-Кайнарджийского мира 1774 года с турками, после которого надобность в казачьей защите южной границы от татарских набегов отпадала: крымский хан принял российское подданство. Третей причиной было само поведение казаков и их старшины. Земли Войска Запорожского были чрезвычайно обширны и плодородны, не освоив эти земли нельзя было заселить приазовские и причерноморские земли. Тому на запорожских землях стали селить сербских колонистов, что вызвало гнев казаков: многих колонистов просто убили, других обкладывали данью. Что безусловно не радовало русское правительство. Кроме того старшина обнаглела в край, воровство казенных денег высылаемых на содержание войска становилось систематическим. Это приводило к восстаниям сечевой бедноты. Кошевой атаман Калинишевский два раза вынужден был бежать из Сечи и подавлять восстания с помощью регулярных войск. Одного из зачинщиков восстания Калинешевский лично запорол насмерть. Многие из старшины сумели сколотить гигантские состояния, только лишь у писаря Глобы (далеко не самое главное лицо на Сечи) имелось 14 тыс. голов скота. Старшина жирела, боеспособность казаков падала, тут еще атаман Калинишевский вступил в тайные переговоры с турецким султаном. О чем не замедлил сообщить в Петербург полковой старшина Савицкий. Ясно что все это в конце концов переполнило чашу терпения русского правительства.
Кстати приказ о ликвидации Новой Сечи отдал… запорожский казак Грыцько Нечеса, более известный как светлейший князь Григорий Потемкин-Таврический (незадолго до этого запорожцы приняли светлейшего в свои ряды) В начале мая 1775 года генерал-поручик Петр Текелли, исполнявший обязанности командующего войсками в Новороссии, получил приказ занять войсками Запорожскую Новую Сечь и ликвидировать ее. Не мешкая, Текелли со всей пехотой и кавалерией выступил из крепости Св. Елизаветы и 5 июня подошел к Сечи которая располагалась на острове Чертомлык у современного села Покровское Никопольского района Днепропетровской области. Внезапное появление русских полков с артиллерией, быстро обложивших Чертомлык, ошеломило казаков. Текелли сумел сохранить в тайне приготовления к выступлению в поход и свалился на сечевиков как снег на голову. Из-за позиции старшины Сечь как военная организация сильно деградировала, тому казаки полностью прозевали подход целой армии. Внезапность и организованность действий регулярных войск, сразу же лишили запорожцев воли к сопротивлению.
From your text becomes clear that there were no "self-liquidation". There was a military operation. Your text reflects the POV of the gorenmend of the Imperial Russia, while Wikipedia should reflect the neutral point of view. --AndriyK 21:29, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Попрошу Вас вести себя прилично и прекратить тыкать.--AndriyK 20:26, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Одно другому не мешает, я вам лично не разу ни чего оскарбительного не выссказал, но даже если вы так считаете то извеняюсь. А вы какого Казачества член, если не секрет то можно звания и часть...Kuban kazak 21:12, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Я имею в виду не мой нынешний статус, а происхождение. Мои предки по отцовской линии - козаки Переяславського полку.--AndriyK 21:29, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Concerning "genetic make up", more reliable sources are needed. One Ukrainian newspaper contacted Elena Balanovskaya to check the information published in the newspaper "Власть". (You cited it above). The answer was (I hope you understand Ukrainian)
– Я обурена політичними інтерпретаціями та вигадками авторів “КоммерсантЪ-Власть” щодо близькості тих чи інших українських популяцій та інших етнічних груп.
З’ясували також, що надруковану карту насправді вигадали автори статті в “КоммерсантЪ-Власть” і не має жодного стосунку до праці “Російського генофонду”.
– З однієї нашої карти взяли лінії, які мають суто технічне значення (на різних картах вони зовсім різні, задаються параметрами під час створення карт), – пояснила пані Балановская, – і приписали їм те значення, яке вигадали автори “КоммерсантЪ-Власть”. Таким чином, карта, наведена в “КоммерсантЪ-Власть”, не має жодного стосунку ні до науки, ні до отриманих нами результатів.
(see [4]) Brief translation: the superwiser of the project Elena Balanovskaya is outraged by pilitical interpretations and inventions of the authors of the newspaper “КоммерсантЪ-Власть”.

The published by “КоммерсантЪ-Власть” map was invented by the journalists and has nothing to do with the work of the scientists.
I would not refer to this map in a WP article.--AndriyK 18:53, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

You missed my point, all I was saying that the Kuban region in ethnicity is almost identical to the Don region, which means that all Cossacks are of Russian origin regardless of which group they belong to. I could not care less about what blood mixes flow in Galichians or in Novgorodians for that fact.Kuban kazak 20:10, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
This is not confirmed by any reliable sources yet. Moreover the historical sources said the opposite (see the discussion above).--AndriyK 20:26, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
I tried to retain all neutral and factural information from your edits.--AndriyK 19:15, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Hey, guys! I'm Slav, so I partialy understand Your discussion, but remember, not all users can do that! This is English-language Wikipedia - use English! Thank's! Radomil talk 21:35, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I translated the most important points of my messages. Thanks for your interest.--AndriyK 22:16, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

THis article is heavily Russified,particularly in Popular images of cossacks, and cossacks in religion. This does not coincide with the WIkipedia policy of neutrality. mindgoneawol

No it is not, the article is fully neutral in its approach to the myth of "catholic Cossacks". The whole Khmelnitsky uprising was centred on Polish persecution of Cossacks. Then Khmelnitsky makes an eternal union with Russia, to defend Orthodox Ruthenia, fast forward three and half centuries, and you have that all of the Cossacks and their descendants are Russian, are Russian Orthodox and thier direct descendants, us the Kuban Cossacks are still loyal to the Pereyaslavl rada. --Kuban Cossack 13:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)