Talk:Cornwall

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Cornwall article.
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Good article Cornwall was a nominee for good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
May 13, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed
Archive
Archives
  1. 2001 - Feb 2004 - 35kb - Is Cornwall a country? Should we use "UK" or "England"? English Heritage
  2. Feb 2004 - Nov 2005 - 107kb - More on county/country, NPOV, nationalism; deleted links, etc
  3. Nov 2005 - Jan 2006 - 78kb - More on country/county
  4. Jan 2006 - Nov 2006 - 178kb - yet more stuff about constitutional status of Cornwall, Infoboxes, NPOV and other minor topics
  5. To end 2006 - Infoboxes, Superfluous info, Language issue, etc
  6. Jan 2007 - Jun 2007 - Speakers, Legal, People, Vikings, Intro, Politics, Rugby, Truro, Religion, Cleanup, GA, Culture, Flags, etc


Contents

[edit] See also

[edit] Archiving

I have archived the previous discussion (see links right)as the length was getting unwieldy. Please do not continue discussions in the archive. If people feel a need to respond to comments that are now archived, could they please copy the relevent sentances "and place them in italics" with their responses on this page, taking care to mention where the original comment comes from. This should help keep things tidy. Many thanks Mammal4 09:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] economy

I think facts about poverty and deprivation and prosperity are probably best put here under Economy.

I have amended the references to Cornwall as "the poorest" to "one of the poorest."

Generalised judgements on the prosperity and deprivation of Cornwall are of limited value because the official statistics at council district and 'sub-ward' (super output area, SOA) level show that there is a large range within Cornwall, even within wards. I think to use only the per capita GVA data is too restrictive.

Other official data - the indices of multiple deprivation, free school meals, child poverty, education spending, health, etc - do NOT show Cornwall and the areas of Cornwall to be the poorest in England. They show that some areas of Cornwall are poor, some very poor, and some are among the top half of prosperity. An encyclopedia should acknowledge this variety. Crococolana 16:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added two further references about poverty in Cornwall. Crococolana 12:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for this and the link to "LINK": Local Intelligence Network Cornwall. ===Vernon White (talk) 23:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I have updated the data for GVA and GDP. Crococolana 23:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, yesterday I used a wiki-illicit url for the economic figures. I have now removed the url from the references. Crococolana 09:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cornwall is also the historic home of the Cornish people

Is this statement necessary? Talskiddy 18:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems tautologous to me, unless a Cornish Volk is implied. === Vernon White (talk) 20:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes its needed because the Cornish people are one of the distinct features of Cornwall. Cornwall and the Cornish are intimately connectedBretagne 44 16:26, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering how useful it was, I've just tidied the lead paragraph, and decided to leave this sentence, but moving it into a more sensible place in the paragraph where it also looks less obtrusive.
The sentence also serves as a way to introduce the Cornish people link.
Mdcollins1984 17:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I wonder what the intended meaning of "historic" is in "historic homeland" and "historic Celtic nations"? The word nowadays means important-in-history and this strikes me as otiose in this context. I suggest we delete the word.Crococolana 23:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bona Vacantia and Duchy Status

Added the following fact with link plus small modification, it seems not all government bodies are so sure that Cornwall is just an English county:

Cornwall is often described as county of England but some government bodies such as the Treasury Solicitors agency for Bona Vicantia Divison consider The Duchy of Cornwall to comprise the County of Cornwall Bona Vacantia - See Jusrisdiction.

Bretagne 44 21:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

That's a slight misrepresentation of their position. Under 11(i) they state
If the company's last registered office and the asset was in England or Wales (other than in the Duchies of Crnwall or Lancashire)
This makes it clear that they still consider it a county of England as well as part of the duchy. josh (talk) 22:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Yawn:

v) If the company's last registered office and the asset was in the Duchies of Cornwall or Lancashire its assets fall to be dealt with by Messrs Farrer & Co, Solicitors, of 66 Lincolns Inn Fields, London WC2A 3LH. The Duchy of Cornwall comprises the County of Cornwall. The Duchy of Lancaster comprises the Counties of Lancashire, Merseyside and parts of Greater Manchester, Cheshire and Cumbria. Further details as to the precise boundaries of the Duchy can be obtained from the Duchy Office, 1 Lancaster Place, Strand, London WC2E 7ED (tel: 020 7836 8277).

Bretagne 44 20:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The point is that the page considers the duchy of Cornwall part of England. josh (talk) 21:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The exact words of the text are: "If the company's last registered office and asset was in England or Wales (other than in the duchies of Cornwall or Lancashire)..." The words "other than" here mean that the two duchies are in England. Since the text says that the duchy comprises the county, it follows from the text that the county is in England; Cornwall is a county of England. The addition Cornwall is often... should be removed. Crococolana 10:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cornovii

The present claim that some of the Cornovii emigrated from Wales to Cornwall is too bold. The Cornovii were a tribe in the west midlands, apparently settled from Chester to Gloucester. There was also a tribe called Cornovii in Caithness. We do not know for certain who these people were but a coincidence of name from Caithness to the west Midlands to Cornwall is not evidence of genetic identicality. A more cautious entry is required. Crococolana 10:14, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I propose to remove the text about the Cornovii: see my arguments above. I also think this aspect is better dealt with in the specialist article on the history of Cornwall rather than in the general article and there the existing entry is suitably cautious. Incidentally, I am uneasy about saying the comment about Cornwall being called West Wales during the heptarchy. The trend in the Old English texts (Anglo-Saxon Chronicles and the charters) until quite late on is to refer to people not teritory, thus the English not England. The references are to the West Welsh rather than to West Wales though I suppose "West Welsh" gets glosssed as West Wales. Crococolana 12:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] demographics

I have removed the phrase "as opposed to British" in the account of the write-in numbers of Cornish as it is misleading. There were numerous alternatives to British on the form - Irish, Indian, Chinese, etc, along with whatever others may have written in under "other." I have added that the 7000 were written in not ticked. Crococolana 15:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CORNWALL DURING ROMAN OCCUPATION

There is dissapointingly little information on this period. The Ordnance Survey map of Roman Britain shows very little military or civilian presence, but a large number of significant hoards found along the South coast. This indicates not that Cornwall suffered Roman occupation, but rather that it fought and plundered the invaders, and I would be interested to learn what other evidence exists of activities around this period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.67.10.253 (talk)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Celts

This culture, which has influenced literature, farming, navigation and so much of European life, for 4,000 years, and covers places as diverse as Portugal and Asia Minor, would be worthy of its own project. Modern areas still Celtic include Brittany, Cornwall, Ireland, the Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales. Please weigh in at the proposal Chris 04:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Payton citation

Anyone have a full citation for the refrence Cornwall, Peyton, 1998? the closeset I can find are:

  • Philip Payton, (1996), Cornwall, Fowey: Alexander Associates, ISBN 1 899526 60 9
  • Philip Payton, (1999), The Cornish Overseas, Fowey:Alexander Associates, ISBN 899526 95 1
  • Payton, Philip (ed.), (1998), Cornish Studies, second series No. 6 Exeter: University of Exeter Press, ISBN 0859896102
  • Payton, P. (ed.), (1997), Cornish Studies, second series No. 5 Exeter: University of Exeter Press, ISBN 0859895513

Lozleader 12:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Suggest date is wrong, as well as the spelling of the name . . . see list of Publications in WP Article on Philip Payton#Publications.
Cornwall; Fowey : Alexander Associates, 1996 ISBN 1899526609. Revised edition Cornwall : a history , Fowey : Cornwall Editions Ltd, 2004 ISBN 1904880002.
--Vernon White . . . Talk 13:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

  • The only correct spelling of « mineralization » is with a « z », even in British English (see Oxford English Dictionary).
  • « exagerated » is unambiguously incorrect.

Elagatis 01:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Like a lot of words, it does depend on which dictionary you use, however the OED might spell it. It does apparently appear to be acceptable to use the 'z' derivative. I did not notice your correction of "exaggerated" when I reverted your edit. Bretonbanquet 13:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Google provides a large number of hits for the "British" spelling of "mineralisation", whatever OED says. The first example cited by OED spells the word with an "s". The OED does not legislate on language.--Vernon White . . . Talk 16:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I would personally prefer the spelling with -z-, but not enough to make a big thing of it. OUP style is to use -z- where there is a choice in -ise/-ize. DuncanHill 16:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Flag

"Commonly understood to represent the white tin metal against the black tin ore, symbolically, however, the flag is said to represent the light of truth shining through the blackness/darkness of evil."

Who by? Is there any evidence for this? Can it be verified?Serpren (talk) 01:42, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

As the Cornwall#Flag section is a summary of a Main Article Saint Piran's Flag, it does not need to cite references. I will remove the {{Citation needed}} tags from this section.
If the Editor who inserted them can demonstrate that the references to sources are NOT in the Main Article, "Saint Piran's Flag", they should remove the statements from the summary of the Main Article in this section of the "Cornwall article", leaving an explanation on this Talk page Vernon White . . . Talk 20:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment

Hi all, The CornwallWikiproject template has been upgraded to include assessments for all Cornwall-related articles. For those who are interested, you can find more info about this at Wikipedia:WikiProject Cornwall/Assessment where you can also find categories for all the different gradings. The extra template parameters can be found at Template:CornwallWikiproject. Right now most articles are in the "unassessed" category, let's try and give all the Cornwall-related articles a rating :-) Cheers, --Joowwww 12:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of places in Cornwall

Hi all, I have added the top 15 settlements by population to the page List of places in Cornwall, now that it is linked from the {{Cornwall}} template. There are pictures still needed for Saltash, Bodmin, Liskeard, Hayle and Launceston, if anyone lives in those towns or can find some free images it would be much appreciated! --Joowwww (talk) 22:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Images of all of the required ones are available on the Geographic British Isles web site which we can use. Best to load the images from that site onto Commons so they can be used on all of the projects. If you have problems then select the images you want, give me the numbers and I can load them onto Commons for you. Keith D (talk) 23:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Evil Cornwall

I think there should be a section that elaborates on why Cornwall has been portrayed as evil in storys. In the series "A Dream of Eagles" )by Jack Whyte), Cornwall is ruled by the vicious King Lot of Cornwall. And in the Shakespeare play "The Twelfth Night", and also in the modernized version of the play "She's the Man", the Cornish force/soccer team is shown as rude and unlikeable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.165.195 (talk)

[edit] Archiving proposal - your opinions please

I propose using the MiszaBot to automatacilly archive this page. I would suggest setting it to archive threads with no activity in the previous 30 days, what are other editors' opinions? DuncanHill (talk) 00:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Sounds a good idea to me Duncan. Tinminer (talk) 10:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Education section

I can't make head nor tail of this paragraph:

Cornwall has a comprehensive education system, with 31 state and 8 independent secondary schools. There are no sixth form colleges, and three FE colleges - Penwith College (a former sixth form college), Cornwall College and Truro College. The Isles of Scilly only has one school. Restormel district has the highest school population, and school year sizes are around 200, with none above 270.

  • No sixth form colleges? Redruth School has one, and it can't be the only one.
  • "school year sizes are around 200, with none above 270" Was this taken out of context or something? It is incorrect on its own, when I was at school there were well over 300 in the year. --Joowwww (talk) 17:38, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
    • VIth Form Colleges - there are colleges at some schools - Sir James Smith's School certainly has one (for the time being), but I don't think there are any seperate VIth Form Colleges (there used to be oone at St Austell, but, together with Mid Cornwall College of Further Education (St Austell Tech) it has been merged into Cornwall College. DuncanHill (talk) 17:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

The etymology section currently reads a bit like a debate. It might be a good place for cleanup by someone who knows more. Thomas B♘talk 02:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cornish media

For info - I am currently working on South West media on Commons. Specifically I am working up the Cornish page & adding some media that may be more recent &and representative than was used before. I've placed the standard Commons link on the page here but feel free to look around in the Cornwall category there. Cheers --Herby talk thyme 09:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)