Talk:Corna

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[edit] Obscene Gesture?

This article is in the "Obscene Gestures" category in the box below the article. I believe it would be more appropriate to move it to the "Other Gestures" category. The corna/horns sign has many meanings, in only one mentioned interpretation it is seen as obscene (as a sign of infidelity). It would be necessary to know if the corna's vulgar use predates its superstitious use. Until so it cannot be interpreted as generally obscene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.230.76.214 (talk) 01:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

I think the picture "Berlusconi corna.jpg" is a fake. Look at the differently colored background where the index and middle finger should be. I can't find the original photo anywhere, though, so need to confirm. --Alban 09:28, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

No, it is true. Berlusconi himself explained that he was joking with a group of boy-scouts. GhePeU 17:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC) -- Can you post any source for this? --BugEyes 22:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

About the merger with Hook 'em Horns: I am against, since the gesture is similar, but the meaning different and totally unrelated. Even the Metal/Rock/Satanist/whatever meaning derives, as stated in the article, from Italian folklore. I think a link is enough.

I agree, it's a completely different meaning.--JW1805 18:26, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
But that's what a disambiguation page is for, right? Except, then, I guess what is the 'official' world-wide name? —Fitch 19:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't see a reason NOT to merge these articles. Even within this article there are different meanings attributed to the sign (partially overlapping), so I don't see why one specific meaning should have it's own article. And speaking of an official world wide name: why would there be one? Seems like everyone calls it something else, but it's still the same sign. RagingR2 14:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Article Title

I am not convinced by the move from Mano Cornuto. Google hits for that seem to reliably point to information on the gesture According to Bablefish, "mano cornuto" means "cuckold hand", which is consistant with usage, "mano cornuta" means "horned hand", and "corno", not "corna" means horn, and "corni" means horns. I don't know Italian, but my sese from Google is that "mano cornuto" is most associated with this gesture. —BenFrantzDale 03:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, "Mano cornuto" is indeed a common misspelling in English and German. However, "Mano" is definitely a feminine word (from Latin's fourth declension, manus, -us), and therefore its adjectives have to be of the correct gender (cornuta is feminine, cornuto is masculine). Babelfish' translation is literally correct, but does not make any sense in Italian. The origin of the "mano cornuto" misspelling are probably a very interesting issue, I would suspect that it first arised in English-speaking countries where spelling is more irregular, and an "a" could get mistaken for an "o". For the record I do speak Italian. --Orzetto 17:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm Italian, and I've always called this gesture "corna". While "mano cornuta" is syntactically correct, no one I know calls it that way. "Mano cornuto" is clearly wrong. Mushroom 05:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Horns sign

  • The tittle should be "Horns sign". This is correct english name for all types of such gesture. The current article is too much based on the italian interpritation of gesture. Garret Beaumain 09:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be called the "evil eye" sign as that is what it is worldwide in most connotations. Just a thought. UB65 12:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New picture?

I just removed the clay sculpture picture since it didn't provide anything new. While Jeremykemp did a great job making a bunch of hand gesture pictures, I would like to see a new leading image. The current one looks like it was taken by the same person doing the gesture and is the back of the hand. An ideal picture would be fairly close up of a famous metal artist in a performance. A croud at a concert showing the horns (correctly) could also be a good; either of these would show its cultural significance. Alternately, an old drawing of the gesture would suggest its long history. —BenFrantzDale 16:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the Corna

The claim that Gene Simmons (or anyone else) "invented" the symbol in 1977 is simply inane. The 11th Series of the "Wacky Packages" issued by Topps Chewing Gum company in 1974 clearly shows the gesture. It was sufficiently well-known at that time that it could be used for a humorous purpose. The Wacky Package in question is the "Cult 45" package from the 11th Series. Here's a link to an excellent image of the sticker: http://www.wackypackages.org/stickers/11th_series/cult45_small_smaller_images.html

Lark

Gene Simmons is such a liar saying that he "invented" the corna in 1977. It's been around for a lot longer than that. And here's proof. Take note of John Lennon's hand. [[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg -->]]

[edit] Variants

Hey, maybe I'm old or out of it or both, but where I come from, when I was a kid (in the 50s) the gesture was used in response to a statement whose veracity one wished to challenge - in other words, it simply means "bullshit."


Isn't this the same gesture used by members of the Salvadoran gang Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13)? Akira 18:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting.... You're referring to the variant of the corna done with both hands, referred to as "too much metal for one hand" in the main article, specifically what I'll call the "South American sub-variant", done with index fingers instead of pinkies. Here's an article about the afore-mentionned gang that includes a picture of a MS-13 member's tattoos showing the gesture on his chest:
[Hispanic gang sets up in Vancouver: Vancouver Province, March 16, 2006: http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=b0ae9414-d9ec-4100-b736-32e84d2f9694]
--BugEyes 23:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


doesn't spider-man use this gesture? anon 07:36, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

That's reversed, pointing to the ground. And I think he stretches the thumb too. Anyway, it might be mentioned. --Orzetto 10:50, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I believe Spider-man's gesture is due to his having the middle and ring fingers pushed into his palm to unleash his web which is contained in a device in his wrist.68.110.179.53 08:04, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Spider-man enjoys music even though hes out fighting crime. Spider-man uses this hand symbol and says that hes "web-slinging" as an excuse. We all know hes actually a metal fan. In Flames, At The Gates and The Haunted to be specific. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.172.126.244 (talk) 15:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC).
His thumb is extended, so it's not the corna. Therefore what the article says about Spider-Man using this gesture is incorrect. LycanFury09 (talk) 21:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


--Reading this article (for reasons unclear even to myelf), I was surprised that the offensive or insulting variant of this gesture was not mentionned. Growing up in Eastern Ontario and Quebec (Canada) in the 70s and 80s, kids used a similar gesture basically to insult or offend at a distance. It was done with the palm facing toward you, so that you were showing the victim the back of your closed hand with the two fingers pointing up. It was sometimes accompanied by an upwards shoving gesture and a grimace, much as you see with the Finger (gesture). I learned this gesture before I ever saw anyone use the finger, and always understood it to mean "f*ck off": it was the rudest gesture I knew, and I considered it too crude to use myself (although no saint, really). When I later learned of the Mediterranean corna, I assumed it had evolved from this "casting and warding of the evil eye" into a general rude insulting gesture (only with the hand flipped around). I was quite surprised therefore when this "heavy metal" gesture became commonplace in the 80s, first with Sabbath fans, then just about everyone connected to rock music. I also noticed that the gesture I describe above soon fell into disuse, to be formally replaced by the Finger (gesture), which I always thought of as an American import, regardless of Trudeau (see Finger (gesture)). Am I the only one who remembers this and could it have had only a limited regional use?

Also, later in Quebec (again in the 80s), a French (from Europe) gesture became popular, which uses a crooked-arm, upward-thrusting motion with the fist, a motion violently stopped with a slap of the other hand against the biceps of the arm with the fist. This gesture quite graphically (and gallically I might add) means "up yours", but I always thought the motion was similar to both the gesture I remember from childhood and the "finger" salute.--BugEyes 22:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heavy Metal Sign

I've always heard that it gained popularity and became a "fixture" in hard rock concerts after Dio strted doing it. The other may have done it as well, but it 'took off" after Dio made it popular. Dantali (talk) 19:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


It is stated that Gene Simmons may have invented the sign for the album "Love Guns" in 1977. However, in the Frank Zappa concert of the same year, featured in the film Baby Snakes, several people can clearly be seen making the sign. Perhaps someone with more information can do someting?

I have a live video from the "Rock And Roll Over" tour (Japan, 1977) and Gene can be clearly seen making the gesture during "Firehouse" ("With your endless dedication"). --Alvabass 20:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Breakfast Club

  • In the 1985 movie The Breakfast Club, the principal, Mr. Vernon (played by Paul Gleason), uses the corna as an analogy, stating, "You mess with the bull, you get the horns," a Texas Longhorn reference.

Wrong.

  • 0:07:53 -- Mr. Vernon says to John Bender "Don't mess with the bull young man, you'll get the horns." and DOES NOT show the corna.
  • 0:20:05 -- Mr. Vernon shows the corna, but does not say anything related to his hand, to bulls or horns.

Also, there doesn't seem to be a direct Texas Longhorn reference. -- Sy / (talk) 03:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Satanism

Well, I've never seen Satanism and popular culture together before. But the sign is ubiquitous throughout different strands of Satanism. In LaVeyan Satanism, it should be noted it is done with the left hand. I really wish I could give an appropriate citation, but I cannot remember which book(s) LaVey went into this, and he was never fond of indexes; unfortunately. I would recommend asking a Satanist wikipedian, as they would probably know. Khirad 04:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rock and Heavy Metal Music

The whole section looks like it was copied and pasteed. Inhumer 20:56, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sign of Bowman in Revelation

"Another reference to the sign relating to Satanism and Christianity is the mention that, after the rapture, agents of Satan "bearing two fingers up in The Sign of the Bowman" will roam the earth, attempting to bring people left behind into Satan's fold through performing miracles and healing."

Yeah, Rev. 16:14 says they preform signs/miracles to win people over, but they don't make the corna. I suspect this is little tidbit is vandalism, but after reading through Revelation a few times I'm sure it's at least a lie, so I'm deleting it.Penguinwithin 21:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Corna / Illuminati assertion

I'm removing this section:

  • Conspiracy theorists claim a similar sign is used for Freemasonry, the Illuminati, or Satan worship, by extending the thumb outward. This sometimes confused with the Hook 'em Horns sign.[1]

Reason being that I visited the source because I was interested in the assertion, only to find that the linked page doesn't even mention the sign. It's just a summary of believed Illuminati history. 72.205.55.200 15:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gene Simmons

I have moved the entire section about Gene Simmons here:

Gene Simmons claimed to have first been influenced by the sign when attending a Heavy Metal show, the band were 'Sister' Who included future Motley Crue Bassist Nikki Sixx and the lead singer was the future W.A.S.P. lead singer and eccentric showman, Blackie Lawless. Blackie was described as being shown extending his little finger and index finger. Gene Simmons used this sign on his album front cover of KISS' 1977 album Love Gun. On the other hand, Gene Simmons has, even before the Love Gun LP, shown this sign on stage or during photo sessions (for example Japan, April 1977). The common cited examples however show Simmons making the gesture with the thumb extended, which is rather a different gesture which means "I Love You" and had been used well before this, however this claim is disputed.

Ronnie James Dio in an interview for the movie "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey" also disputed Gene Simmons' claims saying "...although Gene Simmons will tell you that he invented it but then again Gene invented breathing and shoes and everything you know."

... as it is really muddled and not all that relevant. Bottom line: Gene Simmons flashed the mano cornuta sign on the cover of an 1977 album -- big deal. If you want to move this section back to the article please rewrite it first, thanks. Maikel (talk) 14:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)