Talk:Copt

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Reviewed version: February 17, 2007
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[edit] Coptic flag 2

There is a flag labled 'the Coptic flag' that has been added on the 10th of May 2007 to the article, I don't think this flag should be here or at least it should'nt be in its current place at the top of the article, for the following reasons:

1- It is not notable for this article, since a copt is a 'native egyptian christian' and the flag is not recognized by neither the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria nor most copts of Egypt. A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.The flag has not received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is unknown how much copts even know about it, there is no secondary sources referring to it, and the currently cited sources are not independent from the subject.
2- Claims of consensus must be sourced, there is no source citing the flag as "the coptic flag" (being agreed upon by most copts) , and in the About us section of the Free Copts site they state that they "do not claim to represent the Coptic people as a whole politically or otherwise in any official capacity."
3- From the current sources (1 and 2 in the footnotes), one is a broken link and the other is a primary source.

I think the flag should be removed from the article, or at least moved to the body of the article instead of the infobox and changing the caption. Please add your comments, Thanks.--George (talk) 05:16, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Disagree per the reasons given in the previous discussion about the Coptic flag and for the reasons given on Coptic flag. You remove things after people agree to do so, not before. Thank you. --Lanternix (talk) 00:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I had to do it to get your attention, I'm sorry. Please explain why you think it should be on the article, and in its current place. And if this page is not on your watchlist, please add it.--George (talk) 01:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I checked your arguments for keeping the flag in the archive, this is what I think:

1-Copts are native egyptian christians, and since this flag is not recongnized by the coptic orthodox church, it don't think it should be here.
2-'Articles should not be written based on speculation that the topic may receive additional coverage in the future' (WP:N#TEMP), Googling "coptic flag" generates 19 pages and the first 20 results contain 4 blogs, 6 forums, 2 votes, 2 Wikipedia articles, 3 results from freecopts.com, and 3 videos (I haven't watched those), all of the results can't be cited (freecopts.com is a primary source).
3-I don't think the free copts are separatists (or anything similar), but I also don't think they are notable enough (for the flag to be in the article) and even if they are, the flag shouldn't be in the infobox.

Waiting for your response. (BTW I'm from College de La Salle too)--George (talk) 06:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't have more opinions other than those I've already expressed. Basically, the flag is notable enough to be included in the article, but still not notable enough to be in the infobox. I would suggest, as I did before, to remove it from the infobox and place it somewhere in the body of the article--perhaps under "Human rights" or "Coptic activism"--noting that it was created by a group of activists. I think this is a nice compromise. — Zerida ☥ 21:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree.--George (talk) 21:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
We had this discussion before, so I'll have to repeat what was said then. The Coptic Flag is NOT a creation of the Free Copts. It came as a coordinated effort of many Copts from Egypt, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Germany and Canada. ALL (And I repeat ALL) of these activists were and still are members in official and recognized Coptic organization that represent Copts (not the Free Copts, which is not a recognized organization). If you follow the links on the article page, you will see that 2 Coptic organizations in the US and NZ have adopted the flag, and these are organizations whose members are elected by the Coptic communities in these countries (or at least those who care to do so). This is why I believe the flag is notable for the infobox of this article. The fact that the Coptic Church did not recognize it means nothing. First of all, the Coptic Church does not represent Copts and is not the official spokesman of the Copts. Secondly, the Coptic Church is under huge pressure from the Egyptian regime, so no one expects it to take such a huge leap as to recognize a flag (and you know that, unlike other people, Egyptians start thinking separatism and war when they hear the word "flag"). I will refrain from changing the article back until a concensus is made on the talk page, unless I don't hear from people within a reasonable span of time. Thanks (btw: je suis St-Marcien, mosh de la Salle, bas bardo ya3ni 2arayeb) ;) --Lanternix (talk) 00:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I opened the links in the coptic flag article, I don't know the number of Copts in New Zealand or how many of them are aware of the New Zealand Coptic Association (I googled copt+"new zealand" and found only one result) but, even if 20% of people in New Zealand are Copts and half of them are members of the New Zealand Coptic Association then they represent from 6% to 2% of the copts in the world (which is not enough for the flag to be in the infobox). I also opened the AMCoptic website and I didn't find the flag anywhere (and I think the site is islamophobic, if you agree please remove it) . Thanks --George (talk) 01:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic self-definition

Any particular reason why issues of ethnicity have not been discussed? --Relata refero (disp.) 12:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Collage

The Copts have no women? How have they survived so long? Fishal (talk) 19:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)