Wikipedia talk:Content disclaimer/Archive 3

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Offensive pictures

Offensive pictures, human genitalia, human humiliation, torture and co, are not treated along the same standards on Wikipedia; In particular, female genitalia are hidden, while male genitalia are visible or pictures of torture are visible as well, such as on Iraq prison abuse scandal. In short, double standards exist, that indicate Wikipedia is somehow censoring a simple clitoris, while showing erected penis or pictures that make many people just feel sick in disgust. I am troubled by this. I would like some opinions about this, and to know how people feel like about censorship (ie, removing images), hidding images behind links (eg, the clitoris) or just plain display potentially offending images (eg, torture). SweetLittleFluffyThing

Concur with Ant. Wikipedia shouldn't require parental guidance. Or should we really have to ask the developers for a "child lock" feature???? Even on the anatomy pages schematic drawings are of more use than outright nudity of either sex. JFW | T@lk 11:22, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I have some ideas about a separate version of WP with particular consideration for kids that wouldn't impact on other's freedoms. Some scratchy thoughts at User:Pcb21/WP for kids. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I have no problems with nudity of either sex whatsoever. I don't like toture pics, but then I don't like torture. I think I should be informed of such things and as the saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words.So my opinion is that they should stay in the articles. However if people want links like in the clit picture I'll not object, but we shouldn't censor. theresa knott 11:33, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Sex is one thing. Tortue is another -- to me, tortue photos just very shocking to look at. You're bound to get to sexual images sooner or later, but if you get used to seeing people bleeding or scarring dying painfully --you're desensitized, in a bad way. --Menchi 12:00, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Menchi do you think we should have the offending pictures in a seperate gallary or do you think they should be deleted all together?theresa knott 12:08, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
A disclaimer would do. So long as the disclaimer is not hidden so it doesn't...disclaim as it should. And if the person is morbid enough to check it out AFTER seeing the disclaimer. Well, they have only themselves to blame. :-) --Menchi 06:22, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
On sensitive issues we have several times in the past done whatever the wider mainstream media has done (Kobe Bryant's accuser etc). The torture article now has a link to the decapitation video, which is more than other news outlets are doing it appears. The idea of watching that personally grosses me out and it is the first time I have thought "Yes people should have the personal freedom to make their own choices, but that doesn't mean I need to provide the means for them to do so." Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 12:27, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
There was a whole, lengthy, discussion of this, right here, less than a month ago. Unfortunately, I haven't time to find where it all got archived (and can't remember if it was particularly conclusive, either) but it's out there somewhere... - IMSoP 13:16, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia_talk:Profanity contains (some of the) previous discussion, and the tentative policy is at Wikipedia:Profanity. Whatever the policy is, it looks like it is not consistently enforced given the difference between boys' bits and girls' bits articles that Anthere talks about above. When there are problems of consistency like that I guess it is hard to say "Ah, yes, we've done this discussion ten times before. Here is the policy and here is the talk that got us there. Now be quiet.". Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 13:43, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
First, let me preface this by saying that I was the one who re-added the pictures to penis. Stated simply, this is not the mormon wikipedia - it's not bowdlerized, and not censored. (This same issue has come up at, to mw knowledge, John F. Kennedy assassination, brain, penis, clitoris, etc etc)
We don't go out looking for potentially offensive pictures, but if one that is a useful addition to the article, being potentially offensive should not stop us from using it. If that means we need parental guidance, so be it. The kids can handle it - the pictures in question are (IMHO) relatively tame. You can look in almost any encyclopedia and see the same things - a picture of the brain, penis, clitoris, etc etc. →Raul654 13:52, May 12, 2004 (UTC)
I would prefer having links rather than embedded photos. I'm not morally offended, but rather I find photographs of male genitalia to be just plain unpleasant to view, for whatever irrational reasons. I would still like to be able to read the penis article. Of course, it could be said "well, that's just your problem", but I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of Wikipedia readers held the same viewpoint — in which case, I would argue that omitting the in-line photos would improve the article. — Matt 14:29, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Matt that graphic pictures generally shouldn't be inline, but should be optional viewing. I disagree with the statement that reference materials commonly have such pictures. They usually just have a diagram. I think the Iraq abuse photos are OK inline at present, as it is still breaking news, and news articles I've read indicate seeing them is necessary to understand how extreme the abuse is/was[1]. When the dust has settled, they should probably go optional as well. Niteowlneils 18:50, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
If I'm not in the mood for seeing a penis I don't type "penis" into the search bar. Same w torture or womens goodies or whatever. Does anyone seriously think a child who for whatever reason has a need for researching a penis shouldn't be allowed to see a nonsexual photo of one? Medical textbooks are allowed for kids, and I and my children have reviewed texts on anatomy w a minimum of thrills and chills. Cutting peoples heads off is far less disturbing than the graphic woodcuts and photos of torture equipment from the inquisition which I studied at length as a child. Encyclopedias and other reference texts are the last place that should be censoring. Check out the pic on this page *warning, shocking classical art* ----> Pan (mythology). I think some perspective is needed here. Sam Spade 15:01, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm rarely in the mood for viewing penis photos; that's just my nature, and I don't think I'm unique. Despite this, I might want to read an article on the penis without viewing a photograph of one. I'm not advocating censorship — I don't want to stop other people, including children, from looking at photos, hence I'd favour indirection (i.e. a link to a photo). If a large number of other readers share my aesthetic reaction, then this would improve the article for many people. If most readers are OK with the photos, then keep them inline — it's a benefit to the article. — Matt 15:20, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
My point is that if your wanting to learn about the penis (or torture, or whatever) seeing a pic is an important part of that process, and should be an expected cost of researching the subject. That being said, I think having a clickable link for the squimish to avoid isn't censorous, and while I feel it unnecessary, it would seem acceptable in some cases. Sam Spade 16:38, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Right, but aside from displaying or not displaying nude pictures, is that okay to you that pictures of male genitalia are displayed (hence, not enough offensive) while pictures of females genitalia are hidden (for being very offensive) ? Is there a pov there ? SweetLittleFluffyThing

Yes, that is a matter of taste, and/or POV. Many prefer the nude female form to the males, and the wiki is vaguely democratic. And so things happen this way. Consistancy would be nice in EVERY area of the wiki, but thus far, I have found it in none ;) What to do? Maybe some more democracy will help? And if the majority wants breast, but not penis? What then? lolol... Sam Spade 17:18, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Speaking as a younger Wikipedia user, I think there are many of us out here who feel the same way I do: optional viewing, please, via links. Anyone agree? Rissa of the saiya-jin 19:16, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
No, I disagree - first, it's a slippery slope as to what is 'objectionable' - someone was arguing earlier that the graphic pictures on human brain would be objectionable to vetrans. Second, putting it in link for essentially buries it, which is censorship in itself. Third, it takes away from the utility of the article. →Raul654 19:48, May 12, 2004 (UTC)
One: yes, there's a scale of "objectionableness", but it's not necessary to pander to every objection. We should, I believe, attempt to guage what might be unpleasant to large numbers of people, and act accordingly. The chief mechanism for this should be common sense. Two: Would you argue that a "Wikipedia contains spoilers" message is censorship? I do not believe that giving the reader a choice about whether to see a photograph is censorship. Three: Giving some readers a sense of distaste also takes away from the utility of the article. There's no loss of information for moving a picture to a link, just convenience. We should judge whether this loss of convenience is worth the aesthetic gain for a subset of readers. — Matt
Agree with Raul654, taking pictures about subject X out of any article deptives the article of something, also agree with Sam Spade that people who don't want to see a picture of a penis really shouldnt be looking for one in the search. I do not agree with the external linking of pictures, it takes something away from the rest of us because we can't print the article proprely without going through great trauble. Also an article is just more pretty with inline pictures than extenral, i think everyone agrees on this because we have inline pictures everywhere as opposed to external ones, it can be argued that it is nothing but a violation of NPOV ot be removing valid content from an article just because you are not comfortable with it. I have written down some thoughts on the issue at this page on meta and would appriciate some input. However until something like that proposed system is in place we should not gutting articles left and right at the loss of other readers just because we think it's a taboo subject, an encyclopedia should be timeless, not reflect the taboos of the time. --Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 21:11, 2004 May 12 (UTC)
People may want to read an article about a topic without seeing a picture of it. Other examples: menstruation, anal sex, Coprophagia... — Matt 09:15, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

My concern is that putting some of the more offensive images (Goatse, pictures of dead bodies, etc) up violates NPOV. That is to say, since there is usually a substantial controversy over the appropriateness of showing these images, it is POV for us to show them. We should offer links on a factual ground, but in the case of really controversial and debatable images, to display them is to say that it's OK to display them. We should remain neutral - those who feel it's right to view these things should be able to. Those who feel it should be hidden should not have to. This is the best NPOV compromise available. Snowspinner 00:15, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

I would draw a strong distinction between "shock" images of torture or execution, and clinical, non-shocking, non-sexual anatomical pictures. Absolutely, the article on "penis" should show a picture of a penis. Why shouldn't an eleven year old girl see a picture of a penis if she's curious about the human body? Are we really going to deny her access to that information because it offends some people's moral scruples?

The article on foot contains inline images. So does the one on Ear. There is no intellectually honest reason for excluding one from penis or clitoris, or the rest. Really, a penis or a clitoris is a lot like a foot or an ear, except that a lot more people are curious about the "sexual" organs because they don't happen to have them.

It's the job of an encyclopedia to "shine light into the darkness" on these issues and say, "look, there it is, a clitoris. Now what was the big deal?"

- Thparkth 20:07, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Do not forget to vote and give your opinion at Talk:Nick Berg, where on ongoing poll is going on, over the keep/remove/inlinelink severed head of Nick Berg. This is a poll to try to determine a new policy on the topic of potentially offending images. Thank you for all your comments :-) SweetLittleFluffyThing 05:33, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Child Safety and Wikipedia

Is there a policy in Wikipedia to deal with the inclusion of material that may be considered unsuitable for children?

Obviously Wikipedia is about open sharing of information. However there are entrie that will inflame some parents and terrify school administrators. (see Oral sex) What will inflame some parents will not cause a stir among others. Wikipedia and censorship to not go together, however it will be a tragedy if Widipedia is blocked in its entirity from schools.

Yes. The policy is that this is an encyclopedia, and it's up to parents to monitor what their children read, not us. RickK 23:38, Jul 24, 2004 (UTC)

So, for example, does a list of which movies Drew Barrymore appears nude suitable for inclusion in an encyclopeadia? Paul Beardsell 23:41, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No, because the information is sub-trivial. That she has appeared nude, and even a semi-nude photo of her, would be of value to the encyclopedia, but a list of someone's opinion as to whether she was or was not nude is not. And besides, you've only given half the information. Was it full frontal nudity, rear nudity, side, partial, see, your trivia could get even more trivial, so why stop there? RickK 23:53, Jul 24, 2004 (UTC)

It seems to me that Wikipedia relies on self-censorship. That is an ethic that I subscribe to. I don't believe that formalising the system will make any difference. On the other issue, all I can say to Paul Beardsell is "Grow up". Noisy 23:59, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If resorting to bowdlerism is being grown up then I want none of it. Presumably Noisy actually knows what side of the argument I am on. Paul Beardsell 00:04, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, why stop there? [2] Paul Beardsell 00:07, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There is so much useless sub-trivia on Wikipedia. Why are we discussing only nudity references? Paul Beardsell 00:09, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There are two legitimate concerns here - protecting Wikipedia from being blocked by censorware vs keeping our content as accurate as possible. Our ad-hoc policy is one of common sense - if you go to penis, don't be surprised if you see an explicit photo - it's assumed that you knew what you were getting into by going to that article. By and large, it's generally understood that clinical anatomical pictures are OK, but that's about as far as we're willing to go.

Also, we only put that kind of content in places you would "expect it". By the same token, there's a concern that we shouldn't "push" that kind of content onto people, which is why it is unlikely that such a picture will ever make it to the main page.

As far as a list of nude pictures that Drew Barrymore has appeared in - a text list isn't even close to something we'd need to censor. →Raul654 00:16, Jul 25, 2004 (UTC)

Besides, thats a hypothetical example of the problem of unecyclopedicness and superficiality - not of decency. ;) -SV

Well, where in Wikipedia would one expect to find a list of the pictures that Drew Barrymore appears nude in? I too am not entirely sure that the list is important enough to be included, but somebody thought so. What I was objecting to was the removal of that information, the Wikipedia default being that info is not removed. It is accurate info, presumably. That there is som much seemingly useless trivia in Wikipedia does not lead RickK to delete that. When he does the nudity but leaves the rest then that is nothing less than Bowdlerism. Paul Beardsell 00:30, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ah. Good point. (Sorry about the edit conflict - things can be hard to post here on the pump.) About keeping info versus deleting it, I tend to lean toward keeping, but in the context of a useless trivia article, triviality is fine. In the context of a biographical article about an actress, a separate list of where that actress appears nude is rather trivial. I agree theres a lot of trivial stuff on wikipedia - Pruning the category list ought to be a top priority, but there needs to be better ways to visualise it in order to get to it. -SV

This is a very topical subject these days on Wikipedia. In the general sense, the extreme ease by which materials are avaliable on the web will have a reconciling effect on the extreme interpretations of decency. On the practical side, the battle is between what should be done (according to common sensical, moderate, and agreeable standards) and what can actually be done about it. Artificial control means are completely antithetical to WP, and everything done here has to be done in the name of NPOV and openness, or it just doenst have resonance. If Wikipedia is to appeal to parents for their children's use, the basics should be considered; even vulgar topics are not to be treated profanely here, and articles that are problematic could be categorized as (adult) of (mature) in nature, and not included on certain DVD distributions of WP. If kids are online, they have access to any number of possibly profane things, and WP is the least of those. IMHO "A child-safe internet" is an oxymoron, wo then how much is Wikipedia expected to be like Netnanny or AOL, rather than what it is? -SV 00:34, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree with that wholeheartedly. But that very good point does not apply. We are not talking about porn or even the use of swear words. There is no way that I wish a first time user of an encyclopedia (a very advanced 6 year old, say, or an average 10 year old on their first independent school project) to be protected to the extent that (s)he is not allowed to know that sometimes people appear nude in movies. And that Drew Barrymore actually has a vagina! (Although that point does not yet appear in the article.) Paul Beardsell 00:48, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No, I disagree - its not about that at all. Your talking about defending superficial use of a list - which is a methodology intrinsic to categorization; categorization must be encyclopedic. Sorry if I misunderstod the topic.SV
RickK is not removing a list but simply removing (censoring!) half a dozen occurrences of the word "nude" from the list. That lists are or are not desirable really is not the issue here. Paul Beardsell 01:01, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think the consensus of opinion is that there is no good reason to censor the article. Who disagrees? Paul Beardsell 02:25, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think it trivializes an article on a legitimate actress to highlight, in the list of her movies, which ones she appears nude in. This is not something we normally include in profiles of actors and actresses, nor shoudl we. It's one thing to discuss nude appearances, in the text of the article, where they are relevant to a person's career, and another to turn the list of what films someone has appeared into a "hey, if you want to see her naked, rent this movie." -- Jmabel 04:29, Jul 25, 2004 (UTC)

What would be wrong with that? It is (by definition) prudish to object to what you are objecting to. But, by your own measure, this issue is pertinent to her career and thereby acceptable. Paul Beardsell 13:35, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps a generic article of Nude scenes of famous actresses would be somewhat appropriate; it *is* somewhat, vaguely, in a certain dimension and when you're looking at it with one eye closed, encyclopedic. At least for a perv like me. On a side note, every time I see "Drew Barrymore's nudity" in my Watchlist, I come here thinking someone's finally posted an example. Meanies. --Golbez 09:31, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Maybe we should have a PICS label [www.w3.org/PICS/labels.html], or do we already? Kokiri 16:04, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The people here on this website do not care for children or about morality. As I have stated earlier, this is an adult playground and it has much filthy content that no child should read that many libraries and schools should censor this website but the great amount of contributors and the owners do not care about this. It is about them having fun. Another sign of the sickness of this society. I do not know why they think this ought to be a *source* for highschoolers. This is an anarchistic website.WHEELER 15:48, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure anarchy is known for its desire to create a large population of Administrators. --bodnotbod 18:16, Jul 26, 2004 (UTC)
More to the point, the people on this website do not care to write exclusively for children or decide what is "moral" to show tro other people's children, and realize that an encyclopedia intended for adults will -- must -- contain content not suitable for children.
The "filthy content" might briefly shock a child (assuming she even understood it), but I wager she'd be wakened by screaming nightmares for a month if she read Holocaust and saw this picture, or this one, or this one.
Should we remove those pictures from Wikipedia to "protect children"? Turn the Holocaust survivors' "never again" into "never again seen"?
Or what about Khmer Rouge and this picture of victims, some of them children like those you want to protect? Will throwing that picture down the memory hole make Wikipedia more "moral"?
What about sanitizing inconvenient pictures of American and Iraqi Casualties in the U.S.-led invasion and occupation of Iraq. Are children too young for those pictures of their country's "accomplishments"? Shall we censor those pages too?
Or maybe it's a better idea for parents to sit with young children while they browse wikipedia or any site?
Truth, which is what Wikipedia aims to present, is incompatible with censorship; a Wikipedia "suitable" for children is not a Wikipedia that is useful for adults. And who decides what is suitable? You? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? The Wiccans? Fred Phelps? The Human Rights Campaign? The Republican Party? The Democratic Party?
Better to let each parent decide for his own children, rather than attempt to decide what is "moral" or "suitable" for others' children by censoring Wikipedia. -- orthogonal 16:53, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The children will be entirely safe once freedom is entirely destroyed. -- Stevietheman 17:59, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

While you're making wikipedia safe for children to read, why not also simplify the language the articles are written in? Oh wait, that's already been done.

 (Thanks Orthangonal for the excellent essay above!!!!) --ssd 05:21, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Firstly, protecting children from TV, books, magazines etc. is their parents' job, not ours. "Children safety" should not be a concern. This is not a "family" encyclopaedia.

Secondly, use common sense. Listing all films where Drew appears nude on Drew Barrymore is like listing all films where her hair is blond. Non-encyclopedic, sub-trivial and entirely off-topic. I can understand it being mentioned in articles on individual films, if they deserve articles.

Thirdly, avoid bad taste. "Wow! She's nude, dude! nudge-nudge-wink-wink." Zocky 07:35, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Do you want this resource to be used? What parent wants their children exposed to "penetration this" or "penetration that"? What libraries are going to link to this website with fist fucking and gerbil insertion techniques? Is this a playground for perverts or for the general community at large? While our site is going to remain de-linked, other online encyclopaedias are copying our work, posting it on their website and getting credit. How about establishing a family wikipedia?? a child-safe wikipedia? or a Christian wikipedia? That libraries and families can safely link too. Otherwise I feel, this site is going to be taken advantage of others and be sidelined. Has Wikipedia been turned into an adult playground for academic perverts and homosexual propagandists?WHEELER 15:11, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

As often, I think that WHEELER has gone over the edge. Hear that, "academic perverts" and "homosexual propagandists"? In my humble opinion, those who obsess about "perverts" (and, worse, "academic perverts") and homosexuals are probably those who have a skewed view of reality.
If you wish to create a Christian Wikipedia, feel free to do so. The material is available under the GFDL; just find servers to host you.
I also differ with your opinions that "libraries and families can safely link" a "Christian Wikipedia". I suspect that in countries such as the Islamic Republic of Iran, a "Christian Wikipedia" would be considered inappropriate for children. This is an international web site, not just a conservative US Christian site. May I remind you that in certain locales, merely showing a photograph of a bare-headed woman is already considered indecent? David.Monniaux 06:50, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Wheeler, while being quite emotional, has a legitimate point. We are striving to be an encyclopedia; that in mind, an encyclopedia is something that a child will wish to use. There is no way to mark something as unsuitable for children in this encyclopedia. Yes, what one person considers unsuitable for children may be different than what another person considers unsuitable for children. Yes, we should have all the content available, even objectionable content. However, I feel it would be a good idea to label certain pages as being unsuitable for children. Samboy 00:53, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I suggest that we add categories for classifying material that are considered potentially harmful to children in some locales: explicit description of sexual techniques, explicit anatomic photographs, discussion of religious and political propaganda. There would be different categories, so that filtering systems could make fine-grained decisions. David.Monniaux 06:50, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Whatever the ultimate solution, transparency is always better than censorship. Give people the tools to filter out "indecent" content, but beyond that, we have to keep this content FREE (as in freedom). -- Stevietheman 19:36, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Censorship sucks. And this is an international encyclopedia. In Europe, showing breasts is not considered porn. Salasks 22:06, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)