Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest

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[edit] Direct discussion vs. outing

I see in the section on how to handle conflicts of interest that it suggests directly discussing potential issues, but also says that outing editors is always wrong. In the case of biographies, however, I'm not entirely sure how this would work. Is the idea that one should ask whether there is a COI, but not whether it is the subject him or herself? I would think in the case of someone editing a biography that it is allowed to ask whether the person editing the biography is its subject, and presumably that this is what "direct discussion" means. I realize such situations have led to controversy, but I would guess it is also the general practice. If there are problems with clarifying this, I'd be curious what they are. Mackan79 (talk) 15:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Considering how large the archives are on this page

wouldnt it be a good idea to create a summary or index of past arguments and their outcomes? Low Sea (talk) 20:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I just archived this talkpage (which was over 300K) into separate archive pages, and added some nav templates so it's easy to scroll through them and scan the table of contents on each one. However, if someone wants to take the time to create a more detailed summary, I am sure that would be useful too. --Elonka 21:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tag

I have removed the "guideline" tag, since it only contains advice for editors, not anything that can actually be seen as a guideline - particularly since any attempt to find if someone is not following this 'advice' would itself be a violation of several policies, there is no sense in calling this a guideline. --Random832 (contribs) 17:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It's guidance on how to behave; guidelines needn't necessarily be "actionable". The guideline tag indicates the consensus support it enjoys, while an essay has no such status. It's a major change, and if it is to be made, it should be discussed first. SamBC(talk) 17:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
The fact that it is in direct contradiction with a policy that also supposedly has consensus demonstrates that a consensus does not exist. --Random832 (contribs) 18:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
It isn't in contradiction with any policy, Random. All you need do in the case of a suspected COI where there is policy violation is say, e.g. "User:X's edits are so poor and so fawning [or so attacking] that I suspect he is in some way connected to [whatever it is, or whoever it is]." There is never a reason to out someone onwiki by publishing what you think is their name; if the name itself rather than the suspected connection is important, it can be e-mailed to involved editors and admins, or if sensitive to the ArbCom.
Remember that what matters most are that the edits are poor. A COI might be the reason for the poor edits, but it's the poor editing that gives rise to the suspicion of COI in the first place (assuming the user hasn't said who they are.) SlimVirgin talk|edits 18:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Should it even matter, then, if the person does disclose a COI? Or if they do and then come back as another account, should we take care not to disclose who is returning? To hammer people when they disclose their identity but give them impunity if they don't is one of the major inconsistencies. Mackan79 (talk) 18:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Then why do we have COI/N, and why do we routinely allow threads that _DO_ include a real name? --Random832 (contribs) 18:36, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I guess I don't see why it's important to have a guideline about conflicts of interest at all, if all that matters is the content of the edits. --Random832 (contribs) 18:37, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
All that matters is the content, but given that COI is often a reason for violating NPOV, we alert people for that possibility. Our goal is to allow everyone to edit, but people with COI should be extra careful, and others should be extra alert for NPOV (and other related) violations in such cases. Crum375 (talk) 18:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
So what is the purpose of WP:COI/N? Why was it not deleted when I brought it to MFD last month? --Random832 (contribs) 18:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
According to its mandate, it's for resolving "... disputes with tendentious editors and cases where editors are repeatedly adding problematic material over a longer period of time." I see no conflict between that activity, sensibly carried out, and the rest of our rules. Crum375 (talk) 19:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Editors who do disclose their affiliation with the subject of an article and ask for advice in how to stay out of trouble are usually very well treated at the WP:COIN. The main problem is when you see a pattern of clear promotional editing (often using what appears to be insider knowledge) and then the editor behaves in a cagey manner when questioned about their connection. Discretion should be employed even when that happens, but you'll see phrases like 'apparent COI' used. Nobody is going to go out and publish the email address and phone number of a possibly COI-affected editor, but you'll see cases where adverse inferences about someone's affiliation are drawn, and the adverse inferences often appear to be correct. If you see what you consider to be improper speculation about someone's identity, you should make that known to the person speculating, using email if necessary. Or complain to an administrator.
There have been AfD debates where people affiliated with the subject participated, and I see no impropriety if they disclose their affiliation (not their personal identity) when commenting there. EdJohnston (talk) 19:07, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
This seems consistent with this page as written, other than the two sentences: "Remember, conflicted editors do not lose their privileges to edit Wikipedia pseudonymously. Revealing the names of pseudonymous editors is in all cases against basic policy." Do others agree that these should be removed? I pointed out above it also seems inconsistent with the first sentence of that paragraph, which states that "The first approach should be direct discussion of the issue with the editor...." Mackan79 (talk) 19:17, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, there is a tension between COI/COIN and editors rights to privacy. This tension is real. That doesn't mean we should remove this. JoshuaZ (talk) 19:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, do you mean we shouldn't remove the guideline, or were you responding to my suggestion? I agree there's a tension here, but this is also why I don't think it's a good idea to suggest editors have privileges that they don't entirely have. Mackan79 (talk) 20:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Editing anonymously is a core principle of Wikipedia. If I work for IBM, and edit that article, it should not make me lose my anonymity. If I make poor edits, and violate NPOV or NOR, this can be corrected via normal processes without revealing my personal info. If personal details need to be shared, that can be done discreetly via email. Crum375 (talk) 15:10, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
What if you're editing tendentiously from a company IP, and you admitted off Wiki what you're doing? The WP:COIN seems pretty clear that in some cases we discuss this, where it clearly becomes an issue. Mackan79 (talk) 15:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
If I publish my private info on a public forum, along with my intentions to disrupt Wikipedia, I would no longer be anonymous. One thing we need to watch out for, however, is situations where people have previously (e.g. due to inexperience) published their personal info, and later decided to become anonymous. We have to make all efforts to help them regain their anonymity in such cases. Crum375 (talk) 15:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In all cases

Regarding the rv here, the problem as noted above is that we clearly don't follow this in "all cases." Among other things, the previous version tells people they have privileges they don't have. I think it would be better to keep a simpler version that tells people where to go to discuss this, while noting that bad faith use of the guideline is looked upon badly. I don't think we should say something which goes against practice. Mackan79 (talk) 15:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

There is never a reason to disclose an anonymous editor's personal info publicly. That we sometimes do it does not make it right, and violates a core Wikipedia principle. In all cases private info can be forwarded via email to the appropriate parties. Crum375 (talk) 15:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it's correct that ArbCom wants to resolve every such case, but I'm interested if others have a view. Mackan79 (talk) 15:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I didn't mention ArbCom — admins and other established and trusted editors may also receive such emails to help decide COI issues. Crum375 (talk) 15:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I have received such emails about one particular editor, and I was not sure how to handle them. In these cases the emails confirmed my own suspicions. However, if I were to block someone based upon such an email, how would I provide evidence without revealing the identity of the "informant?" At the same time, if I were to give the blocking reasons on Wikipedia, then it might very well reveal sensitive information (perhaps even unintentionally) about the person being blocked. Finally, the emails were from individuals who had a personal, off-Wiki disagreement with the editor in question (although I do not doubt the veracity of their information). So I don't think "I've received an anonymous email which says this is a COI" is going to carry much weight. Based on this reasoning, in my own situation I finally forwarded the emails in question to the ArbCom mailing list. (I am even using a pseudonym in this forum (which I've also told ArbCom), because otherwise it would be quite apparent about whom I am writing.) Thanks, -- Leo DeVeaux (talk) 16:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Also see my earlier comments in #Exposing COI versus outing the editor. -- Leo DeVeaux (talk) 16:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, I think it's hard to say what should happen in a specific situation without knowing anything about it. Clearly at some point, however, discussion of the COI becomes appropriate, whether done by a normal editor or the type contemplated by Crum375. This raises the question to me of why we would say it is always inappropriate, when clearly this is not a matter of any consensus and goes against what is generally done. Mackan79 (talk) 19:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
It's never appropriate to publicly reveal an anonymous editor's personal information, unless perhaps to protect against a potential physical threat to the public. Otherwise, we should always use email, using discretion and common sense. Crum375 (talk) 20:54, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
What exactly does one email? Or what if the person doesn't respond? I don't see how a preference for emailing resolves the problem. Mackan79 (talk) 22:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
The point of email is to use it when personal information must be revealed to handle a rule violation. The actual personal details don't need to be made public, only the surrounding facts. Established trusted editors, admins and arbs will generally respond fairly quickly to emails. Crum375 (talk) 22:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, but the problem is that you are demanding a policy which would prevent even admins and "established trusted editors" from ever discussing such a COI on Wikipedia other than in general terms. Again, that clearly isn't general practice or supported by any consensus. Mackan79 (talk) 22:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I am not demanding anything — simply reminding all that we must conform to our fundamental principle that protects anonymous editing. To do that, we never disclose personal information publicly — whenever we need to relate this information, we send it by email to specific individuals. There is no problem discussing a COI, we can always say User:XXX appears to be an IBM employee. We just can't say publicly that User:XXX is John Smith, residing at 123 Oak St. in Peoria. Crum375 (talk) 22:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm still not sure I understand your position on this. As far as I can see you're saying that even if someone admits they are editing material under a clear conflict, then finds out this is strongly discouraged, they could comes back with a different account and we should help them by not acknowledging that it's the same conflicted user. It seems to me that this is stating what you'd like policy to be, rather than acknowledging in a guideline what editors do. I think this is a problem, among other things, in telling editors they have a privilege that WP:COIN clearly shows they don't have. I'm also not sure anyone has shown in answer to Cla68's question where the basic policy is that this refers to. Mackan79 (talk) 16:51, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
If someone admits to a COI and comes back with a new account, and we can prove (e.g. via CU) that it's the same user, we may assume the same COI as before. But having COI per se does not preclude you from editing, unless you are violating the rules. The point is that all this is no reason to publicly divulge an anonymous editor's personal information. The basic policies are WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:CIV, WP:BLOCK, etc.. If you adhere to them, you may edit even if you are COI or POV. Crum375 (talk) 17:00, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think a two way conversation is helping, so I'll leave it there for others to comment if they like. The guideline says that discussing identity is always against "basic policy," but nobody has shown which policy this refers to, and clearly editors often do exactly that on WP:COIN. The edit I made to fix this is seen here. Mackan79 (talk) 19:16, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
The reason your edit was reverted is that it removes the established prohibition on publicly revealing editors' personal identity information. The relevant "basic policies" are WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:CIV (which generally allow us to edit as long as we behave properly and the edits meet specific content requirements, not based on who we are), as well as the Wikimedia Foundation's privacy policy, which allows users to edit anonymously if they so choose. Publicly revealing such information is blockable per the WP:BLOCK policy. Crum375 (talk) 20:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] just a heads up....

the above conversation echoes the recent thread here in many ways - it seems to me that quite a few editors at different places mention 'real world' names 'on-wiki' - further, there seem to me to be a few people saying very clearly that this is not allowed, but not really a consensus that this behaviour is against policy... cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 20:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Disclosing personal information is against policy. See Wikipedia:BLOCK#Protection. SlimVirgin talk|edits 23:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I totally understand that that is both your position, and likely policy - it does seem sensible to me to ask if posts like this one and this one are a) against policy and b) all that common or not. Ed's post at the thread linked to above seems quite sensible to me, and I thought the thoughts of editors of this page would probably help too! Privatemusings (talk) 23:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
It's not likely policy, PM; WP:BLOCK is policy. :)
In your example above, exactly the same thing would have been achieved by simply saying the user appears to be connected to the topic. Naming people is almost always unnecessary. The only times the particular name might matter is where there's a real-life feud between people, especially anything involving legal action, where one is suing the other, for example. It's then obviously important that Wikipedia not be used as a platform to damage one of the sides. In those cases, it might be appropriate to alert other editors and admins by e-mail, and if necessary ArbCom, to the identity — although, even in those cases, it should be enough to say User:X's edits suggest he might be connected to court case Y, because it's the connection that matters and the nature of the edits, not the name.
I still can't think of an occasion where a name would absolutely have to be disclosed onwiki if the user himself hadn't disclosed it. SlimVirgin talk|edits 00:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Your view seems to me to be very similar to User:EdJohnston's - who seems to be one of the most active volunteers at the noticeboard - perhaps we should also solicit his views about whether or not anything needs to be done to resolve the mild tension that results between the clear policy statement you link to, and emergent practice (live link to thread with a 'real name') I'm not sure, but I think there may be a use to figuring out how we handle good faith users mentioning 'real world' identities (whether that's a policy, guideline, or just unspoken thing, I'm not sure...) - everyone seems to be taking a very sensible approach, which is cool, but it's also a good time to look for resolution (if it's even needed!) - Privatemusings (talk) 01:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Of course, WP:Block doesn't say what kind of discussion is or isn't justified; it merely says that a block may be appropriate when an editor is outed, which is clearly true. I can't see where a person's identity would absolutely need to be discussed either, but I can see plenty of situations where ignoring it would cause a lot of frustration and confusion, and where this would embarrass Wikipedia where an open secret came to the fore. It's also apparent that users are routinely discussing this, and that it would be a bit ridiculous not to when some editors make it very apparent (without necessarily saying explicitly). The problem is that staying around to prove someone is tendentious enough to be blocked, without reference to the fact that they're clearly conflicted, can take a great deal more energy than most people are willing to invest, even if they knew how to take on such editors. Mackan79 (talk) 04:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
There is really no conflict, and nothing needs to be resolved. The policies are clear and unambiguous: The Foundation's fundamental privacy policy is protected by the corresponding blocking policy. We may not publicly disclose anonymous editors' private information, period. If we need to identify them for COI or other purposes, we must do so discreetly via email. If someone is not willing to invest the extra effort required to adhere to these policies, they shouldn't be enforcing COI. And if someone persists in violating these policies, they will be blocked. Crum375 (talk) 11:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
So when are the people cited in thread links above who revealed alleged real names going to get blocked, or at least warned? *Dan T.* (talk) 16:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The foundation Privacy Policy only applies to information like checkuser and server log data. If someone makes it obvious from their editing who they are, the foundation privacy policy doesn't protect them from someone connecting the dots without Foundation tools and data. WP:BLOCK still applies in a meaningful way. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
You are adding things to the Privacy Policy that are not there. As it stands, we are not allowed to publicly disclose anonymous editors' personal information, and if someone does it, per our blocking policy, they may be blocked. Crum375 (talk) 15:41, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Crum375, could you please quote the part of the privacy policy you're referring to? I don't see anything that would apply here. Mackan79 (talk) 18:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
This is from the Foundation's Privacy Policy:

The content of this page is an official policy approved by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees. This policy may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored on local Wikimedia projects...
* you may choose to publish under a pseudonym...
* Therefore if you are very concerned about privacy, you may wish to log in and publish under a pseudonym...
* Using a user name is a better way of preserving your privacy in this situation.

In addition, en-Wikipedia's blocking policy says:

Protection
A user may be blocked when necessary to protect the rights, property or safety of the Wikimedia Foundation, its users or the public. A block for protection may be necessary in response to: ...
* disclosing personal information (whether or not the information is accurate);

This makes it very clear that public disclosure of personal information of an anonymous user is not allowed and any user violating this policy may be blocked. Crum375 (talk) 18:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I see a number of statements about what someone should do to protect their privacy if they are particularly concerned. So then we say that someone picks a user name which suggests a real name tied to an employer, says off Wiki that they're editing an article relating to their employer, edits in and out of an IP of that employer, and does so in a way that persistently promotes the employer's POV. You believe the privacy policy prohibits discussion of any of the former three? I suppose I don't see how advising people on what might do to protect their privacy means they can do one of these things, ignore everything else, and then all editors are still prohibited from discussing it. Mackan79 (talk) 19:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I should add that the blockquotes provided are not an accurate representation of the text; you have provided ellipses, but you haven't noted the other extents to which the text was modified, for instance by adding bullets to text taken from the middle of paragraphs. Mackan79 (talk) 19:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Feel free to fix the format of my quotation. The point is simple: the Foundation tells us we may edit anonymously to protect our identity, if we so wish. Wikipedia policy tells us that we must not publicly disclose personal information of an anonymous editor. Editors who violate this policy may be blocked. Crum375 (talk) 19:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Except that you still haven't shown how this is true. Which Wikipedia policy tells us we "must not publicly disclose personal information of an anonymous editor"? I would think if we wanted this to be policy, we would say in a relevant policy, "Revealing the names of pseudonymous editors is in all cases impermissible." So far no statement remotely like that has been found in any policy, while this page and WP:COIN show that it happens routinely with editors causing problems relating to clear conflicts of interest. Unfortunately I can't fix the blockquote, since there wasn't anything there to put in a blockquote. Mackan79 (talk) 19:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy says we may block a user for "disclosing personal information (whether or not the information is accurate)." That's clear and unequivocal. Crum375 (talk) 20:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Clear and unequivocal that someone could be blocked for this, yes, and clearly necessary for that purpose considering that outing can often be a form of harassment. Clear and unequivocal that it is impermissible in all circumstances, no, you'd have to do better. Mackan79 (talk) 20:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Like all our policies, there may be extenuating circumstances and unusual WP:IAR cases. But as it stands, the default position, as stated in the above policies, is that you may not reveal anonymous editors' personal details. If you do that, you may be blocked. Crum375 (talk) 20:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
No, it would only be IAR if you showed the policy that was being ignored. You haven't shown any; rather you're attempting to vastly stretch, if not misstating, what is in those policies. Reverting to these comments about "you may be blocked" is also tendentious, and I'd encourage you again to consider the way you are discussing this. Mackan79 (talk) 20:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) The policy says you will be blocked if you reveal an anonymous editor's personal information. I don't see any room for stretching anything. And I encourage you to stick to the message and not the messenger, as I always try to do. Crum375 (talk) 21:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Outing people is problematic if it is done to harass editors. When there is a serious COI there is nothing wrong with bringing that to the attention of the community. This of course needs to be done carefully and in good faith. The ArbCom has more or less agreed with this position. See the Agapetos Angel arbitration. There is a serious tension between our COI guidelines and our desire to protect anonymity. We need to exercise reasonable care in balancing them. That means we don't just block people for raising such issues but that doesn't mean that trying to out editors is in general at all acceptable. JoshuaZ (talk) 19:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
well said, Josh - I'd echo your words, except I'd probably downgrade a 'serious tension' to a more mild one... I do also see the merit in Slim's post above saying there might not be a situation where one absolutely has to mention a real name 'on-wiki'. Leaving aside the discussion of whether or not we already have a clear policy (I think the relevant bit is the blocking policy, not the privacy policy - that's just a bit distracting, I reckon, Crum...) - we certainly don't have clear practice, and I guess what I want to say is that I'm not really unhappy with the status quo - that people are enjoined to not mention names, but when good faith editors do, we don't cause a big fuss (or a small one!) - we just take it in our stride and move along... Privatemusings (talk) 20:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) We are not allowed to disclose personal details (such as names or addresses) of anonymous editors. If someone does, they may be blocked. There is no "balancing act". To pursue COI allegations, use the pseudonym — say editor X may be associated with topic Y and may have a COI, and when someone (established editor, admin or arb) legitimately needs more specific details that may invade X's privacy, supply them via email. Crum375 (talk) 20:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Crum, you might like that idea but that's not how we do things. For example if you look at COIN on any given day you'll see people noting that usernames of new editors are the same as the head of a company or is their initials or similar things all the time. That's generally considered acceptable. If we didn't consider that acceptable COIN really wouldn't function at all. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
There are things we do wrong all the time all over WP. That doesn't make them right. Can you provide an example that we can analyze in detail, showing why there was an absolute and unavoidable need to publicly reveal an anonymous user's real name or personal details? I have yet to see such a case. Crum375 (talk) 20:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
josh is right you know Crum - honest! We're in danger of talking past each other here - I don't want to annoy you, but rather than rely on others to explain stuff, consider taking a look through the noticeboard, and understand that what we / I am trying to communicate to you is simply 'hey, people do mention names without getting blocked, or having their posts edited, and it kinda works ok...' - are you happy enough with the status quo too? Privatemusings (talk) 20:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
ps - please please please don't go through the noticeboard editing other folk's comments! I think that would be a bad idea - and p'raps I'm being silly for even mentioning it...! cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 20:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Crum, I'm not asserting that it is always necessary but rather that it is a) sometimes much more efficient and b) regardless it happens frequently when the users are blatant about their COIs. See for example User:Bcamenker who was edit warring on MassResistance which was founded by Brian Camenker. Now, the COI there was pretty obvious and was discussed on Wiki before Bcamenker explicitly said that he was in fact Brian Camenker. Now, there's no community desire to make such discussions not acceptable and frankly it would be ridiculous to say that one couldn't point out on Wiki the striking resemblance of the usernames. One also sees examples all the time where the username seems somewhat connected. See for example Wikipedia:COIN#James_The_Funny_Funny_DJ where no one had any objection to the matter (and that just happens to be the one that is most recent on the bottom of the page). And I scroll up a little bit I find another where it was written by one Sdod2 about ... Stirling Dodd. Scrolling up a few more we come to Wikipedia:COIN#Cardinal_Health where the user in question was Gdowdy and a tiny amount of research found that one vice-president there was named Gary Dowdy. If I wanted to I could easily provide many more examples. The community seems to accept these as necessary. And moreoever, they are necessary for the COIN board to function. If you think that people discussing such matters should be blocked, I suggest you start blocking them and redacting COIN and see if the community supports you. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Joshua, I am not asking for an example where it's easier to handle a COI case by revealing a person's name. I am sure almost every case is like that, just like it's easier (or more "efficient") for law enforcement to ignore the Miranda rule. What I asked for is one single solitary example where it was absolutely necessary to publicly disclose an anonymous editor's personal information in order to pursue the COI case. Note that WP:COI is only a guideline, while WP:BLOCK is policy, as is the Foundation privacy policy. Do you have such an example? Crum375 (talk) 20:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

If that's your standard I can't help matters. Anything in reality can be done more inefficiently without it being impossible. What you are suggesting would make COIN effectively non-functional due to to the massive inefficiency involved. The community has already made and continues to support the current procedure based on this understanding. This is again a view endorsed by the community and by the ArbCom and reflected in our daily practices. If you disagree I suggest you start blanking comments in COIN and start blocking people there and see what happens. Policy reflects what we do. And what we do is clearly not what you want us to do. JoshuaZ (talk) 21:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I think people on COIN need to be clear that BLOCK trumps COI with respect to revealing anonymous editors' private information. They should learn to find ways to pursue their goals (which we all agree with) with increased sensitivity to people's privacy and greater reliance on email where needed. Perhaps this will be less efficient, but it's correct way of doing it. Crum375 (talk) 21:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Crum, apparently you are the only person who thinks this is "correct" and again the community has decided that this isn't helpful or necessary. Indeed, this isn't even reasonably feasible. I suggest you try to spend a little time looking at the COIN board and try to help out there. Then come back in a few weeks if you think this would work at all. We have a massive problem with COIs and we don't need to severely hobble our handling of it because of your personal interpretation of policy. JoshuaZ (talk) 21:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The policy says "A user may be blocked ... in response to ... disclosing personal information (whether or not the information is accurate)."
This is not my "personal interpretation," this is what our policy says. WP:COI is not policy, only a guideline (which someone had recently changed to "essay" and I reverted back to guideline because I do think COI is very important.) The point is, you can't enforce the law while breaking it. This is true for Miranda and true here. Crum375 (talk) 21:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Crum and yet no one else other than you seems to think that this prohibits all discussions of COI. Among other problems with that wording there is that nice little word "may" and there's the fact that the community simply doesn't do this. If you could convince us that the policy as written forced what you want, the community response would be to the change the policy not change our practices. Policies reflect practice not the other way around. JoshuaZ (talk) 21:26, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Policies are both prescriptive and descriptive. In this case, we have a core Foundation policy that tells us that users may edit anonymously, and a Wikipedia policy that says that those publicly revealing an anonymous editor's private information may be blocked. If there is absolutely no other way to pursue a COI allegation without publicly revealing the information, and email cannot be used instead, then there may be a problem, and we may need to modify the policies. But at this point, you have not presented a single example where such problem would exist. Saying that it's less efficient to follow the policies does not trump the policies. Crum375 (talk) 21:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Policies are prescriptive when they accurately describe what the community does, but you still haven't responded in the several times it has been pointed out that WP:Block says editors "may" be blocked for outing, not that discussion of identity is always inappropriate. You also haven't shown how email does anything other than defer the problem. The problem with your method is that it would require editors on a page all to somehow know about a COI and address it, but never to say what it is. Regardless, continuing to say there is no justification for ignoring policy, when no one agrees that your assessment of policy is correct, doesn't get us anywhere. Mackan79 (talk) 21:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
You are missing some points. First, we need to pursue COI by using the anonymous handles, while supplying information without disclosing names. For example: "I suspect editor X works for IBM, and his edits are COI, see diffs. Email me if you need more information." Also, the policy does say "may be blocked" not "must be blocked" as it does for virtually any offense. Admins always have discretion for extenuating circumstances. But the basic policy remains that private information may not be disclosed, per above. Crum375 (talk) 22:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
That's fine, but your argument still doesn't get the prohibition you're seeking. Where does policy say that discussing identity is always impermissible? You haven't shown this. You have shown a blocking policy that says editors may be blocked for discussing identity, and claimed that it means the former. But of course we all know that editors can be blocked for discussing identity, and nobody disputes this. In many cases such a block would be necessary, and thus it needs to be in the blocking policy. The question here is whether any discussion of COI, acknowledging the identity of an editor who may not explicitly have said it, violates basic policy. To say that the blocking policy is definitive on this is simply incorrect, and obviously so; this is not how a ban on any discussion of an editor's identity would look if we wanted to write one. It's also not where we would place such a prohibition. In this context, the fact that several editors have disagreed with you that there would be any consensus for that position should also be relevant. It seems you could stand to acknowledge some of this. Mackan79 (talk) 22:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The policy tells us that we may block an editor for publicly revealing an anonymous editor's personal information. There are no exceptions mentioned. It does not say that there is a special exclusion if the discussion involves COI. And COI is not even policy. So the situation is clear, and COI discussions, like all discussions, must conform to policy. Crum375 (talk) 22:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Of course there aren't exceptions, since all it says is that editors "may" be blocked. For that matter, I don't think anyone would support total immunity for anything relating to COI, or would think COI is the only circumstance where discussing an account's identity might be appropriate. It's hardly a reason to assume a prohibition that still doesn't exist, and wouldn't, since it simply ignores the balance that many editors have discussed as inherent in this guideline. Mackan79 (talk) 22:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) An editor may be blocked for:

  • persistently making personal attacks;
  • making personal, professional or legal threats (including outside the Wikipedia site);
  • performing actions that place users in danger;
  • disclosing personal information (whether or not the information is accurate);
  • persistently violating copyrights;
  • persistently posting material contrary to the biographies of living persons policy;
  • accounts that appear to have been compromised, as an emergency measure.

So by your laissez-faire logic, we might as well ignore all of these, and keep on making personal attacks, legal threats, endanger users, and persistently violate copyright and BLPs with impunity, because the operating word was may? Clearly "disclosing personal information" is in the exact same category as all of these offenses, and is prohibited and blockable just the same. Crum375 (talk) 23:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

We don't always block for personal attacks for example. Furthermore, the words "personal information" are presumably relevant; the actual name of an editor with a conflict might be relevant, but for example more personal information such as addresses and phone numbers are clearly never acceptable. But as we've already tried to explain to you if your argument has any validity it is an argument for changing the blocking policy to reflect what we actually do. JoshuaZ (talk) 23:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The basic problem is you're trying to turn WP:Block into our general behavioral guideline, when that's not what it is, and that's not how it is written. In any case, saying an editor may be blocked for something doesn't mean the action is a violation of "basic policy" in every instance; I and others have discussed the difference above. We'd need a lot clearer evidence to say that what goes on at WP:COIN somehow violates basic policy. Mackan79 (talk) 23:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
If people violate a policy they are blockable, especially if they justify their violation of a policy by saying it makes enforcing a guideline more effective. Crum375 (talk) 23:58, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Crum, if you think this is blockable then start blocking people. Otherwise stop. This is getting tendentious. JoshuaZ (talk) 00:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree that we have probably exhausted the subject. We have a policy and a guideline that clearly say we may not out people, with no exception carved out. Some people do it anyway, and it is in violation of policy and guideline, and blockable. I don't think there is much more to add. Crum375 (talk) 00:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Please read WP:Consensus, Crum. Believing that you alone are right doesn't exactly cut it on a wiki. Mackan79 (talk) 00:14, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

<-- you're certainly very focused in your discussion, Crum! - and I say that with a smile, because I'm still not sure if we (any of us here) actually disagree on anything at all! - are you unhappy with the way the noticeboard is running? Do you wish to modify any policy or behaviour at all? - maybe we're all signing from the same hymn sheet after all! Privatemusings (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd still like to make the change here, since I don't think the previous version was accurate (or particularly focused). Possibly it isn't important, but I'd think we should want the guidelines to be accurate, and particularly not to say people have privileges when they don't. People who come to edit about their employer, for instance, shouldn't think they'll be entirely protected from discussion that they've done so, and probably Wikipedia shouldn't advertise a policy of disregarding that kind of thing. Mackan79 (talk) 22:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Your proposed change to a guideline would contradict policy, so you'd need to change policy first. Specifically here, no one is saying that COI is acceptable. This is why we have the COI guideline. All we are saying is that we must pursue COI allegations without publicly revealing personal details of anonymous editors. Crum375 (talk) 22:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
My edit removed a statement about basic policy which hasn't been supported here, and which the talk page shows lacks consensus. Even if the statement did have consensus, my change couldn't have contradicted anything since all I did was remove the statement. In terms of all we are saying, I think this is discussed above. My concern remains that it misstates policy as well as general practice. Mackan79 (talk) 22:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I understand your concern, but it's wrong. Both guideline and policy are correct. Crum375 (talk) 23:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
In the nicest possible way, Crum - there is another explanation! :-) Privatemusings (talk) 00:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] betwixt black, white; the big grey mushy bit

following the above, I thought I'd point folks at this recent thread, which I reckon illustrates quite nicely the grey areas involved in pinning this stuff down. I reckon it might be very helpful to be very concise, and just say whether or not we think this sort of post is ok, or not. I'm not 100% certain, but I think it probably is. Privatemusings (talk) 23:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] context, and a suggestion....

to offer a bit of context - the specific wording of the section below doesn't really matter all that much to me - I'm not really sure that people read these things all that thoroughly, and generally just adopt a common sense / someone will tell me if I make a mistake approach. I mean this as a call for calm, because of course it doesn't mean we shouldn't try and have a clear a guideline as possible! Here's my idea;

Dealing with suspected conflicted editors

The first approach should be direct discussion of the issue with the editor, referring to this guideline. If persuasion fails, consider whether you are involved in a content dispute. If so, an early recourse to dispute resolution may help. Editors and admins may act in conflict of interest situations as in any case of point of view pushing. You can also file a case at WP:COIN, where experienced editors may be able to help you resolve the matter without recourse to publishing assertions and accusations on Wikipedia, which is prohibited, as it exacerbates the situation.

thoughts? Privatemusings (talk) 00:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

ps. on review I've taken out "(with very few exceptions)" from the final sentence.... that clause may be the total of our disagreement! - Privatemusings (talk) 00:30, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

pps. happy to drop the final clause (after the ,) too - which may be contentious / redundant.... Privatemusings (talk) 00:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

That would be closer to practice, but still states that what is done at WP:COIN is prohibited. I'll suggest another version for comment, which would be:
Dealing with suspected conflicted editors

The first approach should be direct discussion of the issue with the editor, referring to this guideline. If persuasion fails, consider whether you are involved in a content dispute. If so, an early recourse to dispute resolution may help. Another option is to initiate discussion at WP:COIN. However, using COI allegations to harass an editor or to gain the upper hand in a content dispute is strongly discouraged.

This makes a bit clearer that harassment is one of the main concerns, while staying within general practice. Mackan79 (talk) 00:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

taking about 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other.. hows about;

Dealing with suspected conflicted editors

The first approach should be direct discussion of the issue with the editor, referring to this guideline. If persuasion fails, consider whether you are involved in a content dispute. If so, an early recourse to dispute resolution may help. Another option is to initiate discussion at WP:COIN, where experienced editors may be able to help you resolve the matter without recourse to publishing assertions and accusations on Wikipedia. Using COI allegations to harass an editor or to gain the upper hand in a content dispute is prohibited, and can result in a block or ban.

keeps the prevention language strong, and offers useful ways forward? - Privatemusings (talk) 01:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brought up on block policy talk page.

Given the concerns above I've brought the matter up at Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy. Presumably BLOCK should be clarified to unambiguously reflect consensus and practice. JoshuaZ (talk) 00:58, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] off topic...

but this edit summary did tickle me! - p'raps we need a category for 'johnny-come-lately guidelines' - tee hee! - Privatemusings (talk) 01:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Page protected

Since there was an active edit war, I have protected the page for 48 hours. I know that some of the participants are admins and don't have to honor the protection, but I am asking you to please abide by it. Please work things out here at talk, thanks. --Elonka 01:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the current discussion boils down to consideration of these two sentences; "Remember, conflicted editors do not lose their privileges to edit Wikipedia pseudonymously. Revealing the names of pseudonymous editors is in all cases against basic policy." - I'm not sure that either is particularly helpful, and think they might cause more harm than good. Per the above, we seem to have a particular issue with the second sentence not really reflecting current practice...... thoughts? Privatemusings (talk) 01:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It's very much against both policy and current practice. I don't know why you would think outing people was suddenly acceptable, because there's a strong consensus against it. All the editors who think it's okay to out people might want to start the ball rolling by outing themselves. :-) SlimVirgin talk|edits 02:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Possibly we should say something about private discussion being required for long term editors, which I think is where harassment would be most significant. However, WP:COIN makes pretty clear that new editors who show a conflict can't exactly expect protection, whether we think they should have it or not. It's not that I disagree that this is a concern, but that even so, the statement isn't the right way to say this. Mackan79 (talk) 02:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we've hit the nail on the head of the disagreement here - a conflation between noticing that at the conflict of interest noticeboard people tend to mention names, and a position that 'outing' is ok. My feeling is that the noticeboard is kinda working ok - that the experienced editors there seem to be handling it all quite well, and posts like the one I mentioned above (this one) actually help grease the wheels of the wiki. Harassing people is wrong, and must be strongly sanctioned, especially if that harassment takes the form of aggressive 'outing' - but I also see it as a different thing to saying that the noticeboard has some mentions of names which actually kinda help.... hope this helps explain my perspective... cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 02:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

or to put it really simply; does behaviour at the noticeboard need to change? Privatemusings (talk) 02:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The current situation is working fine. If someone appears to out someone gratuitously on COI, admins there can take action if they feel it's warranted. Perhaps we could add a note to the top of the page saying that naming people who have not named themselves should be avoided wherever possible.
Imagine if I were now to use everything I know about you to find out who you are. I then went through all your contribs from your different accounts, and I found something where you had been editing just a little close to the bone, and I used that as an excuse to out you on COIN. Would you support that? I'm assuming not, as you seemed very upset when your previous user names were posted without your permission.
This is a situation where we need to do as we would be done by. SlimVirgin talk|edits 02:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I think one requirement should be that any conflict is only raised as a current issue. I also agree with a "least intrusive means" approach. The problem is only with saying that this is always against policy, if people do often discuss this without complaint. Mackan79 (talk) 02:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
it's cool to see that you feel the current situation is working fine - I largely agree with you, so we've got some common ground. I'll happily talk about my editing history until the cows come home too, but here's probably not a good spot! - my talk page is always open...
I reckon that the conversation about changing this guideline relates to the sense that if the current system is working ok, then the guideline shouldn't appear to prohibit it! - You mightn't agree that such a tension exists, or needs to be dealt with explicitly, (or that the guideline or noticeboard say any such thing) but I'm pretty sure that's where most recent participants on this talk page are coming from..... and I reckon we're actually making progress through pretty difficult ground... Privatemusings (talk) 02:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
PM, you didn't answer my question, and I'd really appreciate a reply. It was: Imagine if I were now to use everything I know about you to find out who you are. I then went through all your contribs from your different accounts, and I found something where you had been editing just a little close to the bone, and I used that as an excuse to out you on COIN. Would you support my right to out you in that way? SlimVirgin talk|edits 19:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
sorry slim, I was trying to depersonalise things a bit, but have no intention to be evasive. I would trust the editors at the noticeboard to deal with such an approach appropriately. If such an approach were determined to constitute 'harassment' (and depending on it's nature, I might assert that it crossed a line) then I would except blocks, oversight etc. I think we agree that the current situation is working fine, but may disagree about what that means for this particular page.... still thinking though! - Privatemusings (talk) 20:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the response, PM. I have to say that, based on your reaction to your previous usernames being posted, I think if someone were to post your real name and try to justify it, you'd have a hairy conniption, simply because it would be completely unnecessary.
What you have to ask yourself is this — why is anyone arguing in favor of outing people? What is their motivation? It is never necessary to do it onwiki. If you disagree, please give me one example of a situation (real or imagined), where the only way to deal with a COI would be to name the culprit onwiki, where he hadn't already named himself. SlimVirgin talk|edits 22:30, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
If you see people arguing in favor of outing people you seem to be reading a different page than me. But the reason why I take issue with this statement are: 1. It is inaccurate about policy, 2. It states editors have a privilege they are not actually given, 3. It's inconsistent with practice, 4. Unenforced rules cause problems when they are inconsistently applied, 5. Pushing all discussion of COI off of Wikipedia would harm Wikipedia's neutrality, transparency and credibility. Or in other words, I don't believe we should retain a sentence that is inaccurate, misleading, prone to misuse, and harmful to Wikipedia. Does it mean a change in current practice? No, it leaves things exactly as they are, but simply doesn't make an inaccurate statement about what happens in these situations. This is all that has been proposed. Mackan79 (talk) 22:54, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

FYI, I've raised the recent events for discussion on AN/I here, as I don't believe these recent reversions are how discussion on a policy page are supposed to take place. Thanks, Mackan79 (talk) 02:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I remember a case where the anti-creationist cabal here at wikipedia outed an anon for being the wife of the creationist whose article she was editing (Durova was also involved). I remember numerous anons being outed as being Jon Awbrey (a banned editor). We out all the time and always have. WAS 4.250 (talk) 09:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Awbrey had outed himself. I am talking about situations where people have only ever edited with pseudonyms, and where someone has posted onwiki what they think is the person's real name. SlimVirgin talk|edits 22:30, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I remember seeing articles that were totally POV, violating NPOV. And ones which had no sources, and poor sources, violating V and NOR. I remember seeing editors using despicable language towards each other, violating CIV. In fact, all these egregious policy violations, and many more, are going on every day here. So should we throw away all our policies because they are being violated all the time? Crum375 (talk) 10:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
My examples are of policy being followed. Your examples are of policy not being followed. The point is that outing when it improves the encyclopedia is policy and always has been. You and Slim out all the time yourselves when you think some anon editor is the enemy. But the enemy of wikipedia is POV, not any specific persons. And COI is the mother of POV editing. WAS 4.250 (talk) 14:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand what you mean; are you saying that we outed User:Jon Awbrey? I would imagine the username he chose did that. Jayjg (talk) 02:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
We've outed numerous accounts as being Awbrey or other known individuals. If that isn't apposite, see Crum's comment above that if someone wants to return to anonymity we should help them do so. Mackan79 (talk) 02:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Identifying sockpuppets of banned editors is not "outing", and it's pure wikilawyering to pretend it is. Jayjg (talk) 03:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I admit I'm not sure where these back and forths are going. Of course, some would say it's wikilawyering to argue that WP:Block, in stating what editors may be blocked for, amounts not just to a total prohibition on discussing the identity of pseudonymous editors "in all cases," but requires us to include such a statement in this guideline. On the other hand, perhaps there's been too much wikilawyering on both sides of the issue and we could try to be a little more substantive. Mackan79 (talk) 04:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Let's put this in the open

There seem to be a variety of issues here which aren't be stated explicitly so lets put them out in the open. Some of this discussion is occurring due to the Wordbomb matter. Crum edit warred (and was blocked) on the RfAr page about material related to outing, claims related to which SV blocked Wordbomb for posting in the first place. Some editors may be attempting to phrase things in a way that justifies Crum's edit warring while others may be doing what they are doing so they will be in a position to claim that SV's block of Wordbomb was justified. Both of these goals miss the real point; first, no one can say that SV didn't act in a reasonable fashion given the situation. Even if the community attitudes have changed about precisely what outings are considered acceptable, SV's blocking of Wordbomb would likely be considered ok given that he had been told to stop and to email the claims. Furthermore, even if the block would not have occured under current understanding, that was then and this was now. To accuse someone of bad-faith in such circumstances is about as unreasonable as to complain if someone violated 3RR before 3RR was established or to block people who uploaded images with copyrights that were acceptable at the time but are no longer acceptable. Let's try to make this guideline and the block policy actually reflect what we do and what the community considers acceptable and not try not to use Wikipedia policies and guidelines as pawns in personal vendettas. JoshuaZ (talk) 19:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what any of this has to do with WB, Joshua. That outing is not allowed has been in the WP:BLOCK policy in one form or another for a long time, and that is reflected in this guideline. SlimVirgin talk|edits 19:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so assuming I'm completely and utterly wrong, can you explain to me what the resistance is to clarifying this and BLOCK to reflect actual practice? Again, COIN deals with minor outings of SPAs all the time. The ArbCom endorsed such behavior under limited circumstances in the Agapetos Angel arbitration. Obviously outing to harass is blockable. What then is the issue here? JoshuaZ (talk) 19:53, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Policies reflect best practice, and it's not best practice to go around outing people. There is in fact a very strong consensus against doing so, and people's details are for that reason routinely oversighted if they request it. You're relying on a couple of examples where the person has more or less outed themselves (or has in fact outed themselves completely), and someone has asked about them on COIN.
The only people arguing here to change the policy that I have seen are Mackan79 and PrivateMusings. And you, but you seem to have misunderstood what's being said. SlimVirgin talk|edits 20:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to think that I'm misunderstanding but Crum's comments above don't seem to indicate that. Crum seems for example to think that if someone has a username of First initial Lastname and is editing an article about a company run by First Name Lastname that we can't say on the project that they are likely the same person. That's exactly what I outlined in for example the Brian Camenker case above and Crum seems to not be ok with that. Indeed, Crum argued that essentially all those minor outings on COI are blockable. If you think Crum is wrong then I suggest you say so explicitly. Otherwise I'm forced to agree with PM and Mackan. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:11, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
That's not exactly what I said. If we have a case where there is reason to believe someone has a COI, and the evidence includes personal information of an anonymous editor, we can say that "editor X has a COI — he is editing article Y, and I can email any admin or established editor my evidence." Then, the email may include any pertinent information. I doubt this would slow the COI vetting process very much. Crum375 (talk) 20:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so do you think that something like the Brian Camenker case constitutes unacceptable outing or not? Your reply in the section above seems to indicate you think it is a problem. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what the Brian Camenker example is, or what Crum's arguments are (too much to read above). What I'd say is that we always need to apply common sense. If someone is editing John Burton Engineering, and his user name is John B, and he's turning it into a vanity piece, then obviously we can say, "COI problem with User:X, and judging by the user name he may be connected to the company." But even then, some care is needed, because it might be someone just using that name.
We had a situation like that once where someone pretended to be an expert on something, and was editing articles without sources. Someone else worked out who that editor was in real life, and posted somewhere that he didn't, in fact, have any expertise (I think he also had an article on himself where he was claiming the expertise). So anyway, quite a few of the articles he had created were deleted. Then the real person got in touch with Jimbo to say he was not, in fact, the person behind the pseudonym, and he complained about the insults that had been posted about him, and it all got horribly complicated. (Had the pseudonym just pretended to be the real person, or was the real person now pretending he had not been the pseudonym?)
The lesson to extract is that introducing a real name is almost always an unnecessary complication that could backfire in future, and which never helps the editing process. It's always enough to say, "This person's edits look as though he may be personally connected to the issue; more eyes needed, please." That request is just as powerful as, "It's him, I know it's him!" SlimVirgin talk|edits 22:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think anyone has any disagreements with the above except possibly Crum. So in that case, what is the objection to making that clear in the policy and guidelines? JoshuaZ (talk) 01:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I see it as pretty clear already. It says conflicted editors don't lose the right to edit pseudonymously. We could add something to the top of the COIN page asking people to be careful when naming people, but I'd prefer to let the regular edits/admins on the page handle it as they see fit. The BLOCK policy gives them the right to take action if someone crosses the line, but it's left to them to judge what crossing the line means. SlimVirgin talk|edits 02:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
The problem is squaring this with "is in all cases against basic policy." Even in closing, you say, "almost always." If you recognize that it's "almost always" and not "always," then it seems you should be able to help in coming up with a wording that protects what we'd like to protect more accurately. Mackan79 (talk) 23:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
There is no issue, really. It's against policy, so if it's done at all (and it's hard to really see a reason why it should be), then there'd better be a damned good reason for doing so. Frankly, WP:COI has been an abused guideline from the start; it's intended as a guide for the editors with the COI, to help them recognize when they might have difficulty editing in accord with policy. However, in reality, it is all too often used by others as means of trying to force editors to stop editing pages, regardless of the quality of their edits. If someone who works for IBM is able to edit the IBM article in accord with WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:V, then more power to them. The issue is not the "COI" itself, but violating the core content policies with edits - and those are violated all the time, mostly by people who have no "COI" at all. As it is, I've seen COI being rather horribly abused, with editors using it as a means of trying to bully other editors into avoiding topics altogether - for example, insisting that because an editor has a "COI", he's not allowed to even comment on an article Talk: page, or because an editor happens to be a subject matter expert on the topic of a specific organization, having written about them professionally, he now has a "COI" and cannot edit articles about that organization. Jayjg (talk) 02:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
A fine perspective also, Jayjg, but still not an answer for why this guideline inaccurately describes policy. If you disagree with practice, it seems the general approach is to convince editors that what they're doing is wrong. Right now, people clearly don't think it is. Mackan79 (talk) 02:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
The guideline doesn't inaccurately describe policy. Jayjg (talk) 03:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Are you also saying, then, that to state an editor may be blocked for something is to say that it is a violation of basic policy in every case? Without being facetious, I wonder how you would write it differently if discussion which revealed someone's name might in some cases be permitted. To me it's clear that the WP:Block doesn't specify when such discussion violates policy or should result in a block. Mackan79 (talk) 05:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Just a suggestion, but perhaps it might be helpful here to discuss actual wording? Instead of an absolute "it can be either A or B", can the different sides try to wordsmith some wording that both are happy with? --Elonka 04:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

This would be helpful. The text in question is: "Remember, conflicted editors do not lose their privileges to edit Wikipedia pseudonymously. Revealing the names of pseudonymous editors is in all cases against basic policy." All editors agree that outing that looks like harassment should be prohibited, and that this needs to be clear; however, a number of editors don't agree the statement about policy is correct. Mackan79 (talk) 04:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
The problem is that the extremest language in the written policy does not accord with what we seem to all agree is actual policy in practice, which is as SlimVirgin said "apply common sense. [...] The lesson to extract is that introducing a real name is almost always an unnecessary complication that could backfire in future, and which never helps the editing process." Self-outing is not a binary proposition; there are all degrees of self-outing. We need to replace the absolutist terminology with something more nuanced yet very firm that revealing real names is to be as avoided as possible so long as doing so does not cause lasting damage to Wikipedia's NPOV. WAS 4.250 (talk) 09:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Why not include both then? Say, "According to policy <describe policy>; however in actual practice <describe actual practice>. ArbCom decisions on the matter have been <describe decisions>. Certain elements <describe elements> remain controversial and are enforced in different ways depending on context, and the judgment of the reviewing admins." --Elonka 21:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
We could say "According to policy a user may be blocked for outing the identity of a pseudonymous editor; however in practice the names of accounts are sometimes discussed where there are ongoing issues with a clearly conflicted editor, particularly with new editors who edit only in a narrow area. Outing the identity of established editors is highly controversial and will almost always be seen as harassment. Editors should always remember that Wikipedia generally protects pseudonymous editing, and that because of the high ranking of Wikipedia in search engines, any discussions of private individuals by name should be avoided." Mackan79 (talk) 02:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] another go......

I wonder if a parallel approach might be to consider the words before the contentious bit, which maybe we'll all agree on. How's this for the section..;

Dealing with suspected conflicted editors

The first approach should be direct discussion of the issue with the editor, referring to this guideline. If persuasion fails, consider whether you are involved in a content dispute. If so, an early recourse to dispute resolution may help. Another option is to initiate discussion at WP:COIN, where experienced editors may be able to help you resolve the matter without recourse to publishing assertions and accusations on Wikipedia. Introducing a real name is almost always an unnecessary complication that could backfire in future, and which never helps the editing process. Using COI allegations to harass an editor or to gain the upper hand in a content dispute is prohibited, and can result in a block or ban.

Remember, conflicted editors do not lose their privileges to edit Wikipedia pseudonymously. Revealing the names of pseudonymous editors is in all cases against basic policy.

I've added WAS' bit from above - and leaving aside the last para for now, I wonder what folk think..... Privatemusings (talk) 09:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, "almost always" I don't mind, but "never helps the editing process" is still iffy, and a bit contradictory with the previous statements. One of the problems is that we're not necessarily talking about someone saying "I think User:JD is John S. Doe, employee of this company," but under our current language anything that would "reveal" the name of a pseudonymous editor. A name could be revealed even without saying it. Even so, it seems clear to me that accounts will routinely come along where you need to know that this is the author of the article, or the litigant in the dispute, etc., and the answer needs to be tact and responsibility, not to say that all discussion is entirely pushed off site.
In terms of additional clarification, I think it may be a mistake to say too much in this section, even that aims to protect. I might suggest: "Also remember that Wikipedia is a top rated website which generally protects pseudonymous editing. For this reason, speculation about identity can be harmful and should almost always be avoided. One exception is often new accounts which indicate an identity in their username and edit only in a narrow topic area." If that helps, it might be adjusted as needed. Mackan79 (talk) 16:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Could somebody please write an article on James Newton Chadwick, 21 year-old singer-songwriter? He is my favourite musician in the world but I'm always surprised he doesn't get a mention on here.

Simple Chickpea (talk) 22:39, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dealing with merge discussions

How to avoid COI edits
Wikipedia is "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit," but if you have a conflict of interest avoid, or exercise great caution when:
  • Participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors,

This text makes sense, but does it go far enough? In Wikipedia editing merging articles is often an alternative to deleting, and often has nearly the same effect. Is there any opposition to making it "deletion or merge discussions"? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:28, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of WP:N material from this guideline

I just boldly removed quite a bit of text from the guideline because it dealt exclusively with notability and other than 1 sentence did not even mention COI. I reintegrated that 1 sentence. This was done because (A) this is a guideline on WP:COI not WP:N and (B) notability is not the only or even the most common reason for deletion, placing this one-of-many-reasons into such prominence gives it undue weight in the minds of new WP editors. -- Low Sea (talk) 00:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Refer to this revision: [1] per--NewbyG (talk) 03:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)