Talk:Conversion therapy

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[edit] Putting the ex-gay and ex-ex-gay material into the appropriate sections.

There is a long list of ex-ex-gay people in this article, but a short list of ex-gay people. Most of the ex-gay people are on the ex-gay page. To be balanced, shouldn't there just be a short summary of ex-ex-gay people on this page and put the longer, more detailed list on the ex-ex-gay page, as is done for ex-gay? I also noticed that the section on scandals in ex-gay camps is duplicated both on this page and on the ex-gay page. Could there be a summary here and leave the main section on the ex-gay page? Joshuajohanson (talk) 22:14, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I am reiterating this request. Joshuajohanson (talk) 08:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Moved Germany section from article

Moved from article. It's unclear what this means and what the legal effect of this is, and an English-language source should be provided if possible. I googled this but didn't find much.

In Germany all parties of the german Bundestag are against Conversion therapy. The german executive wrote, that Conversion therapy is dangerous and that homosexuality is no reason for conversion therapy. German Bundestag: Answer of CDU/SPD against conversion therapies

Fireplace (talk) 14:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I included a paragraph in this article about the study that was conducted in the US and the results that found that reorientation therapy does make a change in the majority of patients. 75.181.81.251 (talk) 00:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A client interested in conversion therapy has the right to seek it

The following was removed from the lead: "a client interested in conversion therapy has the right to seek it." Why? It follows what all major medical organizations have said:

  • From the American Psychological Association: "Mental health professional organizations call on their members to respect a person’s (client’s) right to self-determination." The President clarified this in saying "The APA has no conflict with psychologists who help those distressed by unwanted homosexual attraction."
  • From the American Counseling Association: "It is of primary importance to respect a client's autonomy to request a referral for a service not offered by a counselor."
  • From the American Psychiatric Association: "Psychologists respect the dignity and worth of all people, and the rights of individuals to privacy, confidentiality, and self-determination."
  • From the World Health Organization: "The gender identity or sexual preference (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, or prepubertal) is not in doubt, but the individual wishes it were different because of associated psychological and behavioural disorders, and may seek treatment in order to change it."

I see no evidence anywhere where a client does not have the right to get conversion therapy. I know from personal experience that you can legally get it from licensed psychologists with full approval of the APA. All they have ever done is officially express concern. The way it is currently written is misleading and either needs to be fixed or removed from Good Article Status. Joshuajohanson (talk) 17:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

None of the sources you mention refer to a "right to seek" conversion therapy -- you're making an interpretative leap. It is true that conversion therapy is legal and that the American Psychological Association does not say that conversion therapy is per se unethical (in contrast, the American Psychiatric Association "recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals' sexual orientation"). The article can and should say as much. Fireplace (talk) 21:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
The WHO source does. "the individual ... may seek treatment in order to change it." As for the other sources, how do you think would be non-POV way to put it? All of these quotes are from documents that are specifically addressing conversion therapy and are related to them. Psychologists are called upon to respect a client's right to self-determine their goals to change their sexual orientation within therapy? It is of primary importance to respect a client's autonomy to request a referral for a service not offered by a counselor such as conversion therapy? You also removed the direct quote "Mental health professional organizations call on their members to respect a person’s (client’s) right to self-determination." saying it was taken out of context. How was that taken out of context? Could we just have that sentence? Joshuajohanson (talk) 21:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
First, I'll respond specifically to each of the sources you cited:
(1) The ACA language is taken out of context: the ACA goes on to say that "To refer a client to someone who engages in conversion therapy communicates to the client that his/her same-sex attractions and behaviors are disordered and, therefore, need to be changed. This contradicts the dictates of the 2005 ACA Code of Ethics" and that "Considering all the above deliberation, the ACA Ethics Committee strongly suggests that ethical professional counselors do not refer clients to someone who engages in conversion therapy or, if they do so, to proceed cautiously only when they are certain that the referral counselor fully informs clients of the unproven nature of the treatment and the potential risks and takes steps to minimize harm to clients..."
"if they do so" implies that they can. They go on to say "The responsibility of counseling professionals at this juncture is to help clients make the most appropriate choices for themselves without the counselor imposing her/his values. To do so respects a client's request and leaves open the possibility that the client can return to the professional counselor if the conversion therapy is ineffective and harms the client." and further "if clients still decide that they wish to seek conversion therapy as a form of treatment, counselors should also help clients understand what types of information they should seek from any practitioner who does engage in conversion therapy. The Committee members agree that counselors who offer conversion therapy are providing "treatment that has no empirical or scientific foundation." I'm not saying they don't advise against it. I am saying they allow counselors to practice it and they respect the client's right to seek conversion therapy, and after all the other conditions they have outlined, it is that right to seek it that "is of primary importance." Joshuajohanson (talk) 23:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
(2) The American Psychiatric Association specifically "recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals' sexual orientation."
Recommendation to refrain does not nullify "rights of individuals to privacy, confidentiality, and self-determination." You cut off the addition "keeping in mind the medical dictum to First, do no harm." Going against a patient's autonomy is harmful. Joshuajohanson (talk) 23:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
(3) The WHO language is, as we and other have discussed before on this talk page, exceptionally confusingly written. It is not clear whether "may" is prescriptive of what the person's options should be, or descriptive of what the condition itself is.
I didn't agree with you then and I don't agree with you now. India seems to have the same interpretation as I do. Since there is disagreement, their statement can't be so readily applied, but at the same time, it can't be so readily ignored. Joshuajohanson (talk) 23:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
(4) The American Psychological Association's language is quoting a general ethical maxim without specifically elaborating on its application in this context (perhaps because there isn't a consensus amongst the drafters as to how it applies in this context). Your interpretation is plausible, but so is the interpretation that the guideline here functions to prohibit therapists from advocating conversion therapy to clients who do not want it.
It is not some general ethical maxim. It is in the section "What about therapy intended to change sexual orientation from gay to straight?" They are specifically talking about conversion therapy. You suggested that it was a prohibition "from advocating conversion therapy to clients who do not want it." It is both. Not only one side gets the right to self-determination. If I want it, I can get it. If I don't, you can't force me to. That is respecting a client's autonomy. It does not just work one way. The statement "The APA has no conflict with psychologists who help those distressed by unwanted homosexual attraction" clearly applies to conversion therapy and a client's right to seek it. Joshuajohanson (talk) 23:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Stepping back, it's very difficult to craft a short (i.e., lead-appropriate) summary of the nuances of the ethical guidelines related to conversion therapy. I think that the following language would do it: "The ethics guidelines of major U.S. mental health organizations vary from cautionary statements about the safety, effectiveness, and dangers of prejudice associated with conversion therapy that do not state that such therapy is per se unethical (American Psychological Association) to recommending that ethical practitioners refrain from using conversion therapy (American Psychiatric Association) or referring patients to others who do (American Counseling Association)." Fireplace (talk) 22:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
But that would over-emphasize one aspect of it and completely ignore all of the above statements. They allow it. Every single one of them do, and each of them emphasize the right of the client to his or her own self-determination. The current explanation is biased, and seem relentlessly intent on maintaining that bias. It doesn't have to be my wording, but it should not be a selective collection of negative statements about conversion therapy. That is POV.Joshuajohanson (talk) 23:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd be happy with the following summary in the lead: "The ethics guidelines of major U.S. mental health organizations vary from cautionary statements about the safety, effectiveness, and dangers of prejudice associated with conversion therapy (American Psychological Association) to recommending that ethical practitioners refrain from using conversion therapy (American Psychiatric Association) or referring patients to others who do (American Counseling Association). The organizations do, however, respect the client's right to self-determination." I think that respects the nuances of the positions, draws attention to the tension between them and the right to self-determination ("however"), and avoids giving an unsourced interpretation of what "respecting the client's right to self-determination" means in this context. Fireplace (talk) 01:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm alright with that for the lead. Joshuajohanson (talk) 01:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Medication Studies?

It's unfortunate that this has had a religious focus that makes some people upset. As someone not on the "religious right" I'm concerned with people's mental health. I don't think it's prejudicial to observe that when you can't stand to be in your body, there's something wrong. I'm interested in knowing any valid, honest information on any studies in the area of medication or non-religious psychotherapy for the psychological discomfort described in transgender disorder cases.Anybody got any data, minus political posturing? 75.165.34.215 (talk) 14:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, it sounds like you are attempting to refer toTranssexualism. I've never heard of someone using conversion therapy to cure them. Read through that page and see if that answers your questions.Kairos (talk) 13:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Camille Paglia

The article currently reads, 'Support for conversion therapy has even been found among gay activists. Camille Paglia, a lesbian activist, wrote in her book Tramps and Vamps, "Is the gay identity so fragile that it cannot bear the thought that some people may not wish to be gay? Sexuality is highly fluid and reversals are theoretically possible."[179]'

This gives a somewhat misleading idea of Paglia's views. She was criticising the extreme reaction of some gay people to some people's decision to try to change, not necessarily advocating conversion therapy. The reference to Paglia connects to an article on NARTH's website, which includes some quotes from Vamps and Tramps, notably not including this, on page 78: 'The injustice and impracticality are in trying to "convert" totally from homosexuality to heterosexuality, an opposition I think false.' The description of Paglia as an 'activist' is also rather off. Actually she is a literary scholar. Skoojal (talk) 23:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I have removed reference to her advocating conversion therapy and her being a gay activist. Joshuajohanson (talk) 23:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
The current version is an improvement, however, it could perhaps be modified further. It still seems a little odd to say that Paglia does not oppose 'conversion therapy' when she wrote that attempting to 'convert' is unjust and impractical. More detail could help to clarify things. Skoojal (talk) 23:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
She said the injustice and impracticality are in trying to convert totally from homosexuality to heterosexuality. Most modern supporters of conversion therapy agree with that. She is in favor of freedom of choice, a notable distinction from some of the more vocal gay activists. Joshuajohanson (talk) 17:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Conversion therapy is not a pseudoscience

If conversion therapy were a pseudoscience, then the APA wouldn't allow physicians to practice it under their licenses, have presentations at their conferences on it, and publish guidelines on how to do it. The official statement by the APA includes the quote: "APA encourages and supports research in the NIMH and the academic research community to further determine "reparative" therapy's risks versus its benefits." The APA wouldn't support research into pseudo science. The only evidence of it being a pseudoscience is a paper written back in the 1990's by gay psychologist Dr. Haldeman, who has since written a paper supporting the right of a client to seek it professionally. Yes, they discourage it, warn of potential harms including a harmful environment and have found several faults in the premises surrounding reparative therapy, but that doesn't mean it is a pseudoscience. You need to find an official source saying mainstream organizations consider it a pseudoscience or remove it from the pseudoscience category. Joshuajohanson (talk) 20:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

APA and ACA do not condone this practice. It is a Pseudoscience, as defined here. Furthermore, it is clarified to be so in this article, in several sections, including "Mainstream medical view in the U.S." Kukini háblame aquí 22:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a reliable source. There is extensive debate and the APA does condone it, even publishing guidelines as defined here. (Notice how I am using an outside source?) Joshuajohanson (talk) 23:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
That reads as a clear stance against conversion therapy. Kukini háblame aquí 23:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
It's entitled "Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation". They are guidelines on how to do appropriately. I didn't say they were in favor of conversion therapy, but they do provide information on how to do it appropriately. Joshuajohanson (talk) 23:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
As far as I know, none of the major mental health organizations have called conversion therapy, as it is practiced by certain people today, "pseudoscience". However, the history of conversion therapy goes back over a hundred years, and many of the methods that have been used (see Conversion therapy#Freud and early sexologists (1886–1939) and with the subsequent historical sections) throughout most of the history of conversion therapy are uncontroversially "pseudoscience." This suggests that the category is appropriate. Fireplace (talk) 19:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Nothing is uncontroversially pseudo-science, because this term has no clear definition. It probably should not be used at all. Skoojal (talk) 22:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I think what is practiced today is more important than the pseudoscience of yesteryear. That certainly isn't pseudoscience, because it is practiced by people with licenses. Joshuajohanson (talk) 07:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
If a therapist uses concepts from astrology or I Ching in her/her therapeutic model, does the APA automatically revoke the therapist's license? If not, does this mean that the APA endorses astrology and the I Ching as rigorous science?
I think not; the APA would be quick to point out that astrology and I Ching are psudosciences with little or no empirical basis.
By the same token, the mere fact that the APA does not swoop in and automatically revoke the licenses of therapists embracing conversion therapy does not mean that it is therefore regarded as valid science, or that the entire model is not motivated, at its root, by a singular aversion to the very existence of mentally healthy gay and lesbian people.Rangergordon (talk) 02:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Please provide some evidence that the comparison of conversion therapy's concepts to those of astrology is correct. There's no point in making the comparison if you cannot back it up. Skoojal (talk) 22:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
This is a refutation to the argument that "since the APA does not always revoke licenses of therapists practicing conversion therapy, conversion therapy is therefore not a pseudoscience." Skoojal perceived it as a positive argument that conversion therapy is a pseudoscience like astrology. This is a logical fallacy.
The evidence I need to support the refutation is the existence of one or more therapists who use pseudoscience in their practices, yet who don't have their licenses automatically revoked by the APA. Here's one.
If the existence of Dr. Jeanette's license is proof enough for you that astrology is not pseudoscience, then you may argue out of conviction that the existence of a reparative therapist's license proves that reparative therapy is, likewise, not pseudoscience.
This falsifies the argument that reparative therapy is not pseudoscience simply because such therapists are allowed to practice.Rangergordon (talk) 05:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
There is no good argument that conversion therapy is a pseudo-science, and nor, I think, is there a good argument that 'pseudo-science' has any clear or useful meaning. Skoojal (talk) 01:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) No one has presented any reliable sources showing that there's a consensus that conversion therapy as practiced by certain people today is pseudoscientific -- debates about licensing, etc., seem inapt -- the standard is WP:RS. However, there are reliable sources stating that conversion therapy, as practiced throughout most of its history, is pseudoscientific. That seems sufficient to put this article in the pseudoscience category for navigational purposes. (Joshua's response to this argument above doesn't really have much meat to it.) Fireplace (talk) 20:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

This isn't a good argument. If conversion therapy per se isn't a pseudo-science, then it does not belong in the pseudo-science category. Nor is it true that there is good evidence that conversion therapy as practiced in the past was pseudo-scientific either. It may not have been good science, it may even have been very poor science, but it wasn't necessarily 'pseudo-science', unless you're going to use that term for what happens whenever a scienist opens his or her mouth and gets it wrong. Skoojal (talk) 01:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll fess up that my whole discussion above does not satisfy WP:RS and might even be "original research" if not downright argumentativeness. Still, I think it's now clear that Joshuajohanson's argument above that "If conversion therapy were a pseudoscience, then the APA wouldn't allow physicians to practice it under their licenses ..." is invalid, on the grounds that one cannot disprove the proposition that any particular practice is pseudoscience simply by pointing out that some licensed therapists are allowed to practice it. Rangergordon (talk) 06:28, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
There are numerous reasons why it would be wrong to label conversion therapy a 'pseudo-science.' 'Pseudo-science' is often used to mean something that claims to be science but is not. Therapies are activities or practices, which may be based on scientific theories of some sort but are not themselves claimed to be 'science.' Since therapy itself is not claimed to be a science, the label pseudo-science cannot apply. It would be like calling baseball a pseudo-science. Skoojal (talk) 08:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
If that is the case, then any valid arguments which may support the thesis that conversion therapy is not pseudoscience should be listed. The fact that some therapists are sometimes allowed by the APA to practice conversion therapy is not one of those valid arguments. Therapy may be an art, but psychology is a science, and homosexuality is not considered an illness in the psychological community. Rangergordon (talk) 06:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

(unidented)There are a lot of points to respond to. Let's see if I can get them all:

  1. Fireplace argues "that conversion therapy, as practiced throughout most of its history, is pseudoscientific." In high school, my chemistry teacher said that 90% of what he was teaching us was going to be disproved in our life times. Does that make chemistry pseudoscientific? Until 1992, any form of homosexuality was considered a mental illness by the World Health Organization. Is it any surprise that theories presented by conversion therapist followed modern, mainstream thinking and indicated that same sex attractions stemmed from a mental illness? Hind-sight is 20-20. Science changes. Let's get over the past. Conversion therapy as practiced 20 years ago, relied on the mainstream thinking of 20 years ago. That is hardly pseudo-scientific.
  2. The way I am interpreting Rangergordon's argument, (s)he thinks conversion therapy as practiced today should be considered a pseudo science because homosexuality is not an illness. There are two problems with this argument. (1) Just because someone wants to diminish homosexual attractions doesn't mean they think it is an illness. Many modern approaches, such as Sexual Identity Therapy focus on aligning sexual behaviors with internal values. That has nothing to do with thinking it is an illness. (2) (S)he said "homosexuality is not considered an illness in the psychological community." We aren't talking about ego-syntonic homosexuality, but ego-dystonic homosexuality. That is indeed considered a mental illness according to the WHO, not that I necessarily believe that. Even the DSM has a diagnosis for persistent and marked distress about one’s sexual orientation.
  3. Both have argued that my argument that because licensed psychologists practice it doesn't mean it isn't pseudoscientific. That may be true, but I still think it is a good indicator.
  4. No one has addressed my argument that why would the APA hold a conference and allow Sexual Identity Therapy to be presented at it if it were based on sound psychology?
  5. What reliable sources have been presented that indicate it is pseudoscientific? Joshuajohanson (talk) 08:46, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I think either Joshuajohanson or I may have conflated two arguments. I have not stated a position on whether or not conversion therapy is a pseudoscience. I have only made the argument that the very existence of reparative therapists does not logically disprove the pseudoscientific status of reparative therapy, which refutation I believe Joshuajohanson was trying to make when he started this talk-page section.
Some people certainly do hold the opinion that reparative therapy offers more lasting benefit to clients who are ego-dystonic than affirmative therapy would. We must accept the fact that some people believe this. In view of the fact that the article is about reparative therapy, and not about the status of gays and lesbians in the world, it seems suitable (and encyclopedic) to reference any experts who people in this field may consider notable, as long as those references are up-to-date, and where equally suitable refutations are also referenced. However, it would be WP:UNDUE to give the pro-reparative argument equal weight--and, indeed, the article does not. Rangergordon (talk) 10:37, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Gay and lesbian" vs. "homosexual"

I reverted a series of major changes by Skoojal (talk · contribs), who purged the article of "gay" and "lesbian" and replaced with "homosexual" and who has made accusations of NPOVness about at least one other editor objecting to the change. "Homosexual" is becoming recognized as a derogatory term among gays and lesbians. From [1]: "Offensive Terminology to Avoid: Please use "lesbian" or "gay man" to describe people attracted to members of the same sex." Skoojal claimed that reverting away from "homosexual" was just "political correctness", but this is incorrect. Per Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality:

Terminology must be neutral. Derogatory terms are not to be tolerated in a category name under any circumstances, and should be added to the list of speedy deletion criteria. Note that neutral terminology is not necessarily the most common term — a term that the person or their cultural group does not accept for themselves is not neutral even if it remains the most widely used term among outsiders.

It is therefore clear that WP guidelines indicate that the most appropriate terms to use are "gay" and "lesbian." eaolson (talk) 23:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The term 'homosexual' is not derogatory, whatever some gays and lesbians may think (other gays, including me, don't have a problem with it). 'Homosexual' is a neutral and accurate term for people attracted to the same sex, just as heterosexual is a neutral and accurate term for people attracted to the opposite sex (and I note that eaolson isn't objecting to 'heterosexual' or complaining that it is somehow derogatory, which logically it should be if 'homosexual' is bad). There is no reason why this article has to use what one particular homosexual organization considers appropriate language: GLAAD does not speak for the homosexual 'cultural group' as a whole. Skoojal (talk) 23:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Should I assume that because no one has responded to my comments above there is no further disagreement and that I should go ahead and edit the article again? Really, I think that if someone is going to call the word 'homosexual' derogatory they should try harder than eaolson has. Skoojal (talk) 22:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
  • First, I disagree with your statement that if "homosexual" is offensive then "heterosexual" must therefore also be derogatory. If political groups start using "heterosexual" to make straight people sound clinically disordered, then I might agree. If you can show me a major straight-rights advocacy group asking that the term not be used, I'll have no objection to "heterosexual" being changed to "straight." In fact, I don't really have any objection anyway. Descriptive adjectives for the majority group are very rarely derogatory, mainly because they are in the majority, the "normal" group.
The question isn't whether the word is inaccurate. Words have connotations and we should be sensitive to them, just how "Eskimo" isn't used on Wikipedia, regardless of its accuracy. You won't find many people objecting to "Caucasian" but I'd be very careful using the clinical term "Negroid" if I were you.
Simply put, "homosexual" isn't generally how the gay and lesbian community describes itself. As examples:
  1. GLADD. Self-evident from the fact they request the media not use the term. (see above)
  2. Advocate.com: Describes itself as the "award-winning LGBT news site."
  3. Human Rights Campaign: "...the largest civil rights organization working to achieve equality for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Americans..."
  4. Servicemembers Legal Defense Network: lists among its goals, "Lift the ban preventing gays, lesbians and bisexuals from serving openly and honestly in the military."
  5. here!: "a precedent-setting television destination dedicated to serving the country's gay and lesbian audience."
  6. Logo: the new lesbian & gay network from MTV Networks
Those are just examples I pulled entirely at random from all the major gay and lesbian media and web presences I could quickly think of. I didn't cherry-pick; I couldn't actually find a single use of the word "homosexual."
Your claim that "GLAAD does not speak for the homosexual 'cultural group' as a whole" is an impossible to meet standard, as there can never be a group that speaks for the whole of any cultural group whether it centers on race, religion, or sexual orientation. And it's not just one group. As far as I can tell, it's basically every media presence, with the exception of some obviously conservatives ones like WorldNetDaily that can't even use the term "gay" without putting it in scare quotes. From our very own article Terminology of homosexuality#Currently prescribed usage:

Same-sex oriented people seldom apply these terms to themselves, and public officials and agencies often avoid them... The Guardian Style Guide, Newswatch Diversity Style Guide, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, and the Committee on Lesbian and Gay Concern of the American Psychological Association's Avoiding Heterosexual Bias in Language agree that "gay" is the preferred term... People with a same-gender sexual orientation generally prefer the terms gay, lesbian and bisexual.

I stand by my claim that "gay" and "lesbian" should be the preferred terms. eaolson (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Some factual knowledge about the history of the word 'homosexual' may be helpful here. There's a good article about this by Jim Burroway over at the Box Turtle Bulletin website http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/page/2. It describes how the word 'homosexual' was coined by Karl-Maria Kertbeny, an early supporter of what is now often called gay rights, as a neutral term to describe people sexually attracted to their own sex.
The term 'homosexual' is standardly used in scholarly and academic discussion of people who are attracted to the same sex, which it certainly would not be if it were derogatory. It is used this way by both supporters and opponents of the gay movement. The fact that some gay groups think that the word 'homosexual' is derogatory does not make this true. They may happen not to like the word 'homosexual', or even be uncomfortable with it, but that's an entirely different matter. Skoojal (talk) 00:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

This remains an issue wherein the terminology on articles should only be changed through consensus. It appears that current consensus on wikipedia is not in favor of replacing "gay" and "lesbian" with "homosexual." Consider building consensus prior to making such changes on articles. Kukini háblame aquí 01:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

'There has to be a consensus' is an argument one can always resort to if one has nothing better. The majority opinion may prefer 'gay' and 'lesbian', but these terms are not neutral, and the very fact that many homosexuals insist on them shows as much. Skoojal (talk) 04:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • [edit conflict, in response to Skoojal] Yes, and in the early days of the gay rights movement the term "homophile" was used. We don't use it anymore. The word "fairy" was used in a non-insulting way in the 1920s. We don't use that one anymore, either. I'm not saying "homosexual" was inappropriate for the 19th century. I'm not saying it's inaccurate, I'm just saying it's not the preferred usage. Terms change. The very reason "homosexual" is not preferred is that it is unnecessarily clinical. Go take a look at Americans for Truth about Homosexuality or Positive Alternatives to Homosexualty. One thing you'll never find there is the word "gay" used, it's always "homosexual" this and "homosexual" that. That's not a coincidence. That's a very intentional use of a clinical word to imply some sort of disorder.
Again, the WP guideline is to refer to a group as how they generally refer to themselves, not how outsiders refer to them. Furthermore, I think this is analagous to the British/American spelling edit wars that go on. WP guidelines are to leave those as they were initially without a significant reason to change them from one to the other. Maybe you can suggest why it's necessary to change all uses of "gay" to "homosexual" in this article? eaolson (talk) 01:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • In response to the interesting boxturtlebulletin article, let me submit this link from Americablog, a fairly prominent gay blogger:

As a gay guy, the use of the word homosexual is downright messed up. The word homosexual is now often considered derogatory by gays, partly because the word is used incessantly by the religious right for the express purpose of denigrating gays (the word can sound dirty and clinical).

eaolson (talk) 01:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Your use of the word 'we' suggests that all homosexuals agree that the word 'homosexual' should not be used. This is not true. Remember that I'm a homosexual and I don't agree with you. The fact that most homosexuals do not prefer the word 'homosexual' does not make it either derogatory or insulting and is not a valid reason for not using it. The fact that the words 'homosexual' and 'heterosexual' are clinical is what makes them appropriate to an article about a scientific subject. Insisting on politically correct rather than scientifically correct language is a violation of neutral point of view.
Incidentally, you aren't describing accurately the changes I made - I did not remove all uses of the word gay from the article. Not only did I not remove it from direct quotes, which unquestionably would have been wrong, I also did not remove several other instances of the word (in one case, I removed it, but on further reflection decided that I shouldn't have done that and put it back in again). I accept that it may be appropriate within certain contexts, eg to describe gay affirmative therapy. It just shouldn't be used in general. Skoojal (talk) 04:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Another point. There is a substantial group of homosexuals who generally don't want to be called 'gay.' These are homosexuals who regard homosexuality as wrong and want to change their orientation. Why should their feelings and sensitivities count for less than those of homosexuals who are happy being homosexual? Using the word 'gay' rather than 'homosexual' is a way of siding with homosexuals who are happy being homosexual against those who are not. Must it be pointed out that a neutral article shouldn't do this?Skoojal (talk) 04:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
It appears that the group of people who are homosexual but prefer the label "gay" currently outnumber those who are homosexual and prefer that label. Kukini háblame aquí 04:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
This may be true, but how is it relevant? That's not a convincing response to my point above, which I consider a strong argument for limiting the use of the term 'gay.' Skoojal (talk) 04:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Ultimately you will need to work to build consensus. I don't think this argumentative approach is likely to do that. Your perception of your argument being strong does not necessarily change any minds. Kukini háblame aquí 04:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Argument about article content is what talk pages are for. Can I ask why my arguments haven't changed your mind? Skoojal (talk) 04:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Misrepresentation of the use of the term reparative therapy

I think this article fails to point out the fact that most therapists actually practicing conversion therapy prefer the term reparative therapy. The article currently states "The label conversion is often preferred over reparative, as the latter suggests that same-sex desire is something which can or should be repaired." This is certainly true for opponents of conversion therapy. However, advocates of conversion therapy tend to use the term reparative therapy, which the article does not currently state. If you actuatly go to the NARTH website you will see that their literature tends to use this term.Nrswanson (talk) 02:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Please see my post below - 'The first sentence of this article' - on why this is a mistake. Reparative therapy is only one kind of conversion therapy. The misrepresentation (it is you who is engaging in it) is using these terms as synonyms.Skoojal (talk) 22:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sexual activity versus Sex

This article frequently uses the expression 'sexual activity' where plain old fashioned 'sex' would be better. I propose to replace 'sexual activity' with 'sex', which means the same thing and has eleven fewer letters. If there are no objections within the next two days, I will assume that no one disagrees or can suggest a reason why I shouldn't do this, and will go ahead. Skoojal (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually I only see it used three times, and each circumstance would be clumsy otherwise. If the first instance, "avoiding same-sex sexual activity" was changed to "avoiding same-sex sex", it would sound silly. --Knulclunk (talk) 13:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the expression 'same-sex sex' would be silly. The words 'same-sex' do not need to be used at all, however. In this context, they mean exactly the same thing as 'homosexual' and that's the word that should be there. I accept that for the time being I've lost the struggle over changing 'gay' and 'lesbian' to 'homosexual', but I submit that there is no reason why 'same-sex' has to be used in cases where 'homosexual' has the same connotation. Skoojal (talk) 21:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I will make this change in the near future if there are no further objections. [Looking at those three uses of 'sexual activity', I think one of them is fine, but I will change the other two] Skoojal (talk) 22:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
There is a whole lot more involved in sexual activity than sexual intercourse. Passionate kissing and petting are considered sexual activities.Joshuajohanson (talk) 17:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
'Sex' and 'sexual intercourse' do not mean the same thing. 'Sex' is a very broad term that can include a wide range of things, including passionate kissing, and so forth. That's why it's not different in any meaningful way from 'sexual activity.' Skoojal (talk) 20:55, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with the idea that passionate kissing is a form of sex, or at least the connotations are very different. If I heard someone had sex with someone else, I would assume they did more than just kiss. Joshuajohanson (talk) 16:15, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
If I heard that someone had sex with someone else, I wouldn't necessarily assume anything. Seriously speaking, if a behavior like anilingus (often called 'rimming') that does not even involve the genitals counts as sex, then passionate kissing counts as sex too. And just as a matter of logic, 'sex' and 'sexual behavior' mean the same thing. 'Sex' is a behavior, therefore 'sexual behavior.' 'Sexual behavior' likewise means sex. Skoojal (talk) 03:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I think "sexual activity" or "sexual behavior" is more appropriate here in general. Fireplace (talk) 17:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Well I don't think that. I have given reasons for my position; you have given none for yours. Please note that I will make this change in the near future if no one offers good grounds against it. Skoojal (talk) 02:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Joshua has given a good example as to why sexual activity or sexual behavior is broader than sex and is more accurate in this context. Fireplace (talk) 03:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Joshua has offered his opinion. His assertion of this opinion, and your agreement with it, does not end the issue. Disputes can't be solved by just asserting that someone is wrong - where are your arguments, your sources? Skoojal (talk) 03:43, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Sexual behavior and sexual activity are widely used terms in the professional literature (see [2] and [3]). Fireplace (talk) 03:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
So is sex. The first hit on the first of those links is Alfred Kinsey's classic book on Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. It uses the term sexual behavior in the title, yes, but the book itself also contains a lot of uses of the word sex.Skoojal (talk) 03:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Since there was no response to my post above, I assume that there is no more disagreement. I will make this change soon. There is currently no consistent terminology - the article sometimes refers to 'sexual activity' and sometimes 'sex', with no apparent rationale. I will be changing 'sexual activity' to 'sex' whereever this makes sense. Skoojal (talk) 08:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The first sentence of this article

The first sentence of this article begins, 'Conversion therapy, sometimes called sexual reorientation therapy or reparative therapy...' This is not actually wrong - conversion therapy is sometimes called reparative therapy, just as it is called a lot of other things, but it is misleading, as has been pointed out numerous times. Elsewhere, the article says, 'Sometimes reparative therapy is misleadingly used synonymously with conversion therapy, though in fact it is only one type of conversion therapy.' This is true, and that's why the article should not begin the way it does. I have taken the liberty of changing the article without waiting for a discussion because it really was just wrong the way it was. Skoojal (talk) 22:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Fine by me but in that case I think the sentence "The label conversion is often preferred over reparative, as the latter suggests that same-sex desire is something which can or should be "repaired" should be removed from the lead.Nrswanson (talk) 22:05, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the sentence is misleading and should be removed - I will do it, if no one has done that already. Skoojal (talk) 22:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology

As a result of a recent edit war between myself and several other people, this article now uses an inconsistent mixture of terms to describe people attracted to the same sex. Sometimes 'homosexual' is used, and sometimes 'gay' or 'lesbian', with no apparent logic to the choices. Presumably this happened because those who were undoing my edits did it so quickly that they may not have realized exactly what they were doing - several cases of my changing 'gay' to 'homosexual' seem to have escaped notice. The article ought to use consistent terminology (I would prefer it if 'homosexual' was used throughout the article except in direct quotes, but I realize that I'm not going to get my way on this). My only request to whoever edits the article to resolve this situation is to at least not use the silly acronyms - GLBT, LGBT, GLB or whatever - where it can be avoided. They're a mutilation of the English language. Skoojal (talk) 02:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm going through and restoring the original language (using gay, not homosexual). I appreciate that terms like LGBT (or LGB, when trans people are excluded) take some getting used to, but they are part of the mainstream public discourse today -- presumably because using the full "lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender" is a mouthful and makes a text more difficult to read. Fireplace (talk) 16:05, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Terms like 'LGBT' are the language of an elite of activists who do not represent ordinary gay men and lesbians (or for that matter bisexuals and transsexuals). They are ugly and silly terms that can be objected to on numerous grounds. For example, the article now reads: 'The 1969 riots at the Stonewall Inn began a movement of LGBT visibility and policy reform.' The term 'LGBT' wasn't even used in 1969 so this is a misrepresentation of history. I will change this (probably to 'gay') if no one gives a good reason why I shouldn't. Skoojal (talk) 02:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm fine with replacing that instance of LGBT with gay and lesbian. Regarding the use of the term more generally, I think you'll find it's made its way into the mainstream (see, e.g., [4]). Fireplace (talk) 03:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wording of the introduction

The introduction contains a sentence that reads, 'Today's conversion therapists characterize the movement as offering the possibility of a choice to gay men and lesbian women who are unhappy with their sexuality.' I've already tried to point out what is wrong with this. Conversion therapists typically do not like or use terms like 'gay men', so this sentence effectively represents them as saying something that they do not say. The 'gay men' and 'lesbian women' who are not satisfied with their sexuality also generally do not use these terms or want them applied to themselves, so that's deeply unfair to them. This part of the article could be made fair without using the word 'homosexuals' by changing it to, 'Today's conversion therapists characterize the movement as offering the possibility of a choice to people who are unhappy with their attraction to the same sex.' I can't see why anyone should object to this. Skoojal (talk) 02:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Since no one objected I made the change. It's clearer and more precise this way (since it is specifically their same sex attractions that the people in question are dissatisfied with, rather than their 'sexuality' in general - a much broader concept). Skoojal (talk) 01:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Something else that should be changed

Part of the article reads, 'The label reparative originates from 1983 when research psychologist Elizabeth Moberly coined the term reparative drive to refer to male homosexuality itself, interpreting male–male desires...' This is expressed very badly. The term 'male-male' does not make sense in English. I am going to change this to something that actually makes sense - male homosexual desire, maybe; I'm open to other suggestions - in the near future in the absence of objections. Skoojal (talk) 03:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Male-male makes sense to me and a google search gives plenty of results showing that its usage is widespread. It is a useful and common shorthand. Anyone else have an opinion?Intesvensk (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
'Male-male' is an expression that does not make sense in English. No one with a sense of logic or style would use it. That it may be in widespread use does not contradict this. Skoojal (talk) 04:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
To whom does it not make sense? It makes sense to everyone who uses it and therefore it makes sense in English. No one person is the arbiter of the English language, its usage is dependent on the users.Intesvensk (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it does make sense as the language communicates what is intended. However, it is not the best use of the English language and more professional word choices are available. This is an encyclopedia and we should strive for excellence.Nrswanson (talk) 22:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi there. I completely understand where you are coming from on this and in a way I agree. I just think that terms like male-male are widely used in the context of the subject and it is therefore appropriate to use them in the article. It is very common to hear of terms like male-male in the literature (I can find examples if you like) and so I thought that it made sense to use the term here. It has been changed anyway and it is not something extremely close to my heart. I just wanted to explain my rationale behind my belief that it is appropriate for the article. :) Intesvensk (talk) 18:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
That expression may be widely used, but this does not mean either that it is elegant or that there is any reason why it must be used in this article. Skoojal (talk) 09:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] APA affirms principles with regard to treatments to alter sexual orientation:

In 1997, the APA sent out a resolution that included these words:

"Therefore be it resolved that APA affirms the following principles with regard to treatments to alter sexual orientation:"

I summarized it by saying by saying they "affirmed the principles with regard to treatments to alter sexual orientation." I really tried to keep the same wording, but it was removed with the paraphrase "this phrasing misleadingly makes it sound as though the APA has established principals within which it approves of conversion therapy -- that is not what the source says." Am I missing something? I am trying to keep the same wording as the document. Are you seeing something I'm not? Joshuajohanson (talk) 07:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the use of the word 'but' in your proposed language (No mainstream medical organization endorses conversion therapy but they have affirmed the principles with regard to treatments to alter sexual orientation) misleadingly suggests that the principles are somehow opposed to or qualify the lack of endorsement. Fireplace (talk) 01:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Debate within Professional Literature

In 1997, the APA stated:

Whereas the ethics, efficacy, benefits, and potential for harm of therapies that seek to reduce or eliminate same-gender sexual orientation are under extensive debate in the professional literature and the popular media

I have not seen any official statement refuting that. In 2004, the Counseling Psychologist published a paper saying "the topic of sexual-identity conflicts cannot be framed as it has been - that is, a war between opposing camps, with reparative therapists on one side and gay-affirmative therapists on the other. Ultimately, the client is the one who will be caught in the crossfire."

There is a debate in the field. Simple as that. Joshuajohanson (talk) 07:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree that there is debate in the professional literature and popular media. Regarding your revision and edit summary here, two points: (1) First, procedurally, it's disingenuous to reprimand me by saying "Please trying talking about things for making major changes." The section has been specifically about the client self-determination issue for a very long time (close to a year), until you rewrote it without discussion here. I was away at the time and so did not immediately revert and discuss. (2) Second, substantively, the original, stable version of that section was about a discrete topic that is fairly widely discussed in the literature. The presentation of that issue was well-written and cited a variety of articles to lay out a coherent dialectic. Your new version puts unrelated quotes next to each other and obscures the self-determination content. That's why I reverted it. Fireplace (talk) 01:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I apologize for the disingenuous reprimand. As you probably noticed, it is easy to get emotional about this topic. I actually do like discussing things with you because at least you are logical, even though we differ on opinion. To the point, I do not see how the new version puts unrelated quotes together. The main debate seems to be self-determination and possibility for change versus potential for harm, though neither side has been proven. I organized it with a summary, the official position promoting self-determination, arguments supporting self-determination, the official position warning potential for harm, and arguments against CT (which are quotes that I originally added, trying to be fair). I ended it with an observation about the debate and the harm it causes clients. I do not see how it is unrelated phrases stuck together. The original presented self-determination as if only conversion therapist were concerned about that. It also didn't cover other aspects of the debate such as evidence for success as well as the harm of the debate. We need a neutral section on the debate and I have been trying to get it in for a long time.[5] We can have a self-determination section which is neutrally presented (the old "stable" one wasn't), but we definitely need a section on the debate as well. Joshuajohanson (talk) 07:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I think of this as a stylistic issue rather than a pro/anti-conversion therapy issue. The content should be arranged topically -- we have sections on the harm and changeability issues, and had a section on the self-determination issue. That strikes me as a better organization than a generic "debate" heading. Fireplace (talk) 12:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I think we should have a debate section. I don't care if we have another self-determination section, but we need a debate section. I think Beckstead's quote which was removed on how the debate is damaging the clients is insightful and needs to remain in. I know of tons of people with same sex attraction who were too scared to see a psychologist because they were afraid s/he would tell them that they should just accept the fact that they were gay. Many of them had developed other problems from being so closeted and full of self hate. While the world goes on in political debate, real people are suffering, and no, not all of them would be happy with the gay lifestyle, as indicated by the research by Douglas Haldeman. And also, if we do have a self-determination section, it should not be presented as going contrary to modern psychology. Self determination is the mainstream view and those who oppose it are the fringe view. Joshuajohanson (talk) 09:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Usage of the term "gay lifestyle"

Could you please define "gay lifestyle". I'm gay and I'd like to kow what my lifestyle is. --Ecelan (talk) 18:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC) P.S. Please define also "heterosexual lifestyle"; just to make things a bit clearer for the ignorant, like me. Thanks.

Sorry. I did not mean to be offensive. By gay lifestyle I meant people who were either in sexual relationships with people of their own gender or pursuing said relationships. Just because your gay doesn't mean you have what is commonly termed in conservative circles as a gay lifestyle. People who have ceased pursuing homosexual relationships often refer to it as a lifestyle change. I shouldn't have used the term gay lifestyle, but I honestly forget it is offensive and it is sometimes easier than saying pursuing gay relationships. I will make more of an effort to avoid such a term in the future. Is there another term that is less offensive to refer to people who pursue sexual relationships with people of their gender? Joshuajohanson (talk) 07:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
"lesbian", "gay", or "bisexual" Дҭї 09:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
But how would that distinguish gays who pursue homosexual relationships from gays who do not? This was the context in which the offensive term "gay lifestyle" was used. Joshuajohanson (talk) 17:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
There is no such thing as a gay lifestyle because gay people do not behave in a single, uniform manner. Would an out, but celibate, priest be part of the lifestyle? It's a loadedterm used to dehumanize people. In fact, the WP lifestyle article uses "homosexual lifestyle" as the example of a pejorative term. eaolson (talk) 18:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
That is precisely the reason conservatives use the term. According to the usage in conservative circles, an out, but celibate, priest would most definitely not be part of the gay lifestyle. The whole purpose of the term is to distinguish those who choose to have gay sex and those who do not. This whole discussion is just simply for my benefit, since the term was used on the talk, not on the main page. I really do want to know what the correct term should be. I am more used to talking in conservative circles, but obviously some of the terminology doesn't translate very well. I do want to correct my speech to not be offensive. What is the correct term to distinguish a gay who is pursuing homosexual relationships from a gay (such as the celibate priest example) who is not? Conservatives use the term gay lifestyle. What do others use? Joshuajohanson (talk) 18:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The APA has no conflict with psychologists who help those distressed by unwanted homosexual attraction

What context do you think is necessary to put that quote in context. After he made the quote he reiterated some of the basic principles that have already been confirmed. Would this be enough context?

The President of the American Psychological Association has said: "The APA has no conflict with psychologists who help those distressed by unwanted homosexual attraction," provided they follow the several principles affirmed by the APA with regard to treatments to alter sexual orientation.

If not, what context do you want?Joshuajohanson (talk) 07:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

This would strike me as NPOV:

"Gerald Koocher, while serving a one-year term as president of the American Psychological Association, said that "the APA has no conflict with psychologists who help those distressed by unwanted homosexual attraction." Advocates of conversion therapy called this statement "an amazing turnabout" and a positive development. But Koocher clarified his comments soon after, stating that "in a full multifaceted therapeutic relationship, the therapist has every duty to respond to patient choice and to help patients achieve their goals.... BUT... [First,] therapists must determine whether patients understand that their motives may arise purely from the social pressures of a homophobic environment.... [and second,] patients must understand that [treatments to modify sexual orientation] lack a validated scientific foundation and may prove psychologically harmful."

Fireplace (talk) 12:29, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 'Queer'

Beside this article, there is a box indicating that the article is part of the 'LGBT and Queer studies' series. The word queer is usually used to associate homosexuality with eccentricity and insanity. Its use in an article about how homosexuality has been treated as an illness is disgusting and inappropriate. Those who wish to can protest its use here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_May_19#Category:Queer_studies. Skoojal (talk) 05:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It is an academic term. See Sedgwick's definition...Zigzig20s (talk) 09:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
'An academic term' - that's vague. It isn't used by all academics. And academics are not above criticism. Skoojal (talk) 10:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
It's an established term...See Queer Theory. It's not at all meant in the offensive sense. That would be rather laughable.Zigzig20s (talk) 10:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
It's wrong to use a term that is usually used in an offensive way in a positive spirit. You simply can't change the fact that it is an offensive term for most people, and since there already are more generally acceptable positive terms, why even bother trying and cause needless anger in the process? Skoojal (talk) 23:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Queer Studies is different from LGBT Studies. Both are academic fields. You may want to read up on it before being so bold.Zigzig20s (talk) 00:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
"Queer" and "gay" are not interchangeable terms; "gay" cannot simply be substituted for comfort's sake. Some people object to the very existence of a queer subculture (consisting of people who consider themselves "queer" and not "gay"), but that objection does not make the subculture--and the need for its descriptive term--disappear.
Some people are still offended that the word "gay" has taken on its modern meaning, but so far their offense has failed to change the language. Even words which are universally regarded as offensive are offensive only by consensus--they have no special, magical ability to offend in themselves. Rangergordon (talk) 07:41, 31 May 2008 (UTC)