Talk:Convention on the Rights of the Child

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[edit] The US power position and the UNCRC or any other UN treaty

The US is the biggest kid on the block...so to speak ... at least militarily. It doesn't wish to be just another member of the UN. Thus the UN Security Council. The difficulty is that when you are THE only Superpower you have responsibilites that go along with that power. The misuse of such power is the other side. Everyone is for democracy until they realize that a World democracy would give 1.6 billion Chinese the vote. Considering the world population of 6.5 billion, put together some of these large population countries and they could tax America to death. So much for democracy. Democracy works only with an educated population in which there are the means to communicate and debate issues by at least somewhat educated peoples through an uncontrolled free press. That just simply isn't the educated citizen base of educated voters in many emerging countries.

On the one hand the countries of the world don't want the terrorists or rogue nations to gain power and hold nuclear weapons or "weapons of mass destruction". On the other hand, those in power in the US doesn't want to be accountable to "lesser" country's representatives judging their actions or lack thereof in implementing the UNCRC. It is, franky, embarassing for THE Superpower to have to admit that 25% of their own children live in poverty and don't have universal health insurance when everyone else in the western world has universal health care as a human right.

The true power is in the hands of US voters, if they only had the full and complete truth about big business and the buying of America.


[edit] Initial comments

The US has signed, but not ratified the CRC and the Optional Protocal on child soldiers. I wonder why they haven't "ratified" it.

They did this with Kyoto Protocol (global warming treaty), too.

But they have no intention to do so: Kyoto Protocol Article on Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.15.113.234 (talk) 21:33, 5 March 2005 (who inserted within another ed's signed contrib.)

What's up with this "signing but not ratifying" thing?

I also heard the US is nearly the only holdout against a treaty banning land mines.

Is the US wickedly hypocritical, or are there some defects in these treaties, or what?
-- Ed Poor 07:27 & 07:53, 29 March 2002


As to the child treaty: conservatives are concerned that the treaty gives too many rights to children that (in their view) properly belong to parents. I think a summary of the main provisions of the convention would be nice.
About landmines: the US uses them in Korea and does not want to limit its options. They have said they will sign once they have developed alternatives. US, Russia, China are the major producers of landmines, and all three have refused to sign.
This struck-thru 'graph & the sig of AxelBoldt 07:32, 29 March 2002, were separated from the previous one by intervening contribs by Rast and others; they both appear in their original form, further down the section.
Generally speaking, those opposed to the CRC believe that under the CRC a 14-y old child would have the right to have sex, get an abortion, join the Wiccan church, etc, regardless of her parent's wishes, and by ratifying the CRC, the US government would be commited to upholding those "rights" when parents attempt to deny them. Supporters of the CRC claim that the CRC does no such thing and in fact strengthens parental rights. But the opposition claim the supporters are lying.
Also, CRC opponents feel that the US does not need the UN telling it what to do, because even without the CRC, the democratically elected US government is perfectly capable of making whatever laws are needed to protect US children.
This article is rather overwhelmingly positive, and would be improved by a section explaining the negatives of the CRC (it's toothless) and American opposition to it.
--Rast 00:20, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


Other issues with the treaty:
Under Article 13, any attempts to prevent their children from interacting with material parents deem unacceptable is forbidden. Children are vested with a “freedom of expression” right, which is virtually absolute. No allowance is made for parental guidance. Section 1 declares a child’s right to “seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of the child’s choice.”
In Article 14, children are guaranteed “freedom of thought, conscience and religion.” Children have a legal right to object to all religious training. Alternatively, children may assert their right against parental objection to participate in any religion that may be objectionable by the family, such as the occult.
Article 15 declares “the right of the child to freedom of association.” Parents could be prevented from forbidding their child to associate with people deemed to be objectionable companions. Under Article 15, children could claim a “fundamental” right to join gangs, cults, and racist organizations over parental objection.
Article 19 mandates the creation of an intensive bureaucracy for the purpose of “identification, reporting, referral, investigation, treatment, and follow-up” of parents who, in violation of the child’s rights, treat their children negligently.
To insure State and U.N. control over their development, Article 7 requires all children must be immediately registered at birth.
Articles 3, 19, 37 require all ratifying countries to protect children from “degrading punishment” and “physical violence” which includes corporal punishment. The U.N. Committee of Ten (pursuant to Article 44) must oversee the implementation of the treaty. Over the last several years, the Committee published reports criticizing several countries (including Canada and Great Britain) for allowing corporal punishment to continue.
One big difference between the US and other countries is if a treaty is ratified here, it becomes the highest law of the land, only subserviant to the Constitution. Under the Constitution’s Supremacy Clause of Article VI Section.2, “all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution of laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.” In Missouri v. Holland, (252 U.S. 416), the U.S. Supreme Court held that under the Supremacy Clause a treaty made by the President, with concurrence of two-thirds of the Senate present at the time of voting, would become the supreme law and take precedent over contrary state laws. Thus, the U.N. Convention would constitute legally binding law in all 50 states. Otherwise valid state laws pertaining to education, the family, etc., which conflict with the provisions of the treaty will be subject to invalidation. Were this convention to be ratified, the United States would be required to alter large portions of long established law to cater to the demands of the United Nations.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.1.2.4 (talk • contribs) 22:34-:36, 18 November 2006
About landmines: the US uses them in Korea and does not want to limit its options. They have said they will sign once they have developed alternatives. US, Russia, China are the major producers of landmines, and all three have refused to sign. AxelBoldt 07:32, 29 March 2002
The U.S. may very well be wickedly hypocritical, but that is not what is behind the "signing but not ratifying" phenomenon. The cause of this is that signing and ratifying are done by different people with different responsibilities. Signing is a symbolic thing and a statement of intent. It is done by the executive branch (that is, the U.S. President, or someone to whom he delegates authority). Ratifying is a more binding legislative act that requires the approval of Congress. And Congress is under no obligation to agree with the President. Congressional refusal to ratify a signed treaty may be a serious problem, but I don't think we can call it "wickedly hypocritical". Are there defects in these treaties? A majority in Congress apparently think so (or think their constituents think so). — Nowhither 09:58, 12 August 2005 (UTC)


The main US opposition I've heard about concerns the age of eligibility for military service. The military currently allows 17-year-olds to enlist with parent/guardian written permission, but the CRC would prohibit the practice altogether. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fsotrain09 (talk • contribs) 03:01, 8 April 2006

It says that 192 member states ratified the convention, aren't there only 191 countries in the UN? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.72.227.3 (talk) 19:11, 25 June 2006

[edit] Copyright Violation

I saw a copyright violation.

Wikipedia: Only Somalia and the United States have not ratified the CRC. Somalia is currently unable to proceed to ratification as it has no recognized government.

The United States, by signing the Convention, has signaled its intention to ratify – but has yet to do so. The United States undertakes an extensive examination and scrutiny of treaties before proceeding to ratify. This examination, which includes an evaluation of the degree of compatibility with existing law and practice in the country at state and federal levels, can take several years – or even longer if the treaty is portrayed as being controversial or if the process is politicized. In particular, the practice in several U.S. states of executing persons between the ages of 16 and 18 is a major barrier to the USA's ratification of the Convention. However, a 2005 Supreme Court decision made this illegal.

UNICEF Site: "Only two countries, Somalia and the United States, have not ratified this celebrated agreement. Somalia is currently unable to proceed to ratification as it has no recognized government. By signing the Convention, the United States has signalled its intention to ratify – but has yet to do so.

As in many other nations, the United States undertakes an extensive examination and scrutiny of treaties before proceeding to ratify. This examination, which includes an evaluation of the degree of compliance with existing law and practice in the country at state and federal levels, can take several years – or even longer if the treaty is portrayed as being controversial or if the process is politicized. For example, the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide took more than 30 years to be ratified in the United States and the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, which was signed by the United States 17 years ago, still has not been ratified. Moreover, the US Government typically will consider only one human rights treaty at a time. Currently, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women is cited as the nation's top priority among human rights treaties. "

There are some differences, but almost all of the passage is the same on both.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.15.113.234 (talk • contribs) 21:47, 5 March 2005

  • Facts can't be copyrighted.
    —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.43.48.68 (talk) 18:52, 14 February 2006
  • But the way they are phrased can.
    —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fsotrain09 (talk • contribs) 03:02, 8 April 2006
  • _ _ The verbatim uses of the following phrasings:
Only Somalia and the United States have not ratified...
Somalia is currently unable to proceed to ratification as it has no recognized government.
The United States undertakes an extensive examination and scrutiny of treaties before proceeding to ratify. This examination, which includes an evaluation of the degree of compatibility with existing law and practice in the country at state and federal levels, can take several years – or even longer if the treaty is portrayed as being controversial or if the process is politicized.
are violations. (Well, unless we can establish that the author, or the entity for whom they wrote it as a work for hire, executed the GFDL or placed it in the public domain. But even finding a statement at the source to that effect would suffice to do more than make it likely, since anyone can copy it from an earlier source and lie about that.)
_ _ I'm tagging and removing them.
--Jerzy•t 22:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] US Supreme Court and the Convention

Dropped this about the Roper decision and the US ratification:

However, recent changes in the court, including the new Chief Justice of the United States John Roberts, and the vacancy created by the departure of[ asscoiate justice Sandra Day O'Connor, both of whom are appointed by president George Bush, a pro-death penalty conservative, indicate that this decision may likely be overturned in the near future.

This makes no sense. The Roper decision was 5-4. Both Rehnquist and O'Connor were on the dissenting side. Even assuming that the two new justices take the same position as the their predecessors, the votes are not there to overturn Roper. Ellsworth 21:42, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Key Issues Inconsistencies

The items in this list are very inconsitent in their use of second vs. third person i.e. "They" and "Children" vs. "You". I believe third person would be more appropriate, but second person is used in the external link that it is based on. The main thing is it needs to be consistent.
socalifornia 18:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Consistency within the article is indeed mandatory. But the main thing is that 2nd person is unencyclopedic, and every edit that adds to consistency within the article by introducing more 2nd person is a bad edit. NPoV implies that the purpose of an article is to communicate facts, and choosing language features whose purpose is to prepare the reader to apply it to their personal situation is implicitly taking the position that their doing so is good, besides interferes with the factual communication (starting with the fact that what is said applies to the rest of the world as well as the reader).
--Jerzy•t 21:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Broken Link

just thought i'd mention--broken link at the bottom of the page.Nothingisreal 23:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Key issues section - too listy?

I'm concerned that the key issues section may be too listy for inclusion - the article iself is not a list. Therefore I'm removing the section to talk. ~ crazytales56297 -talk- 01:44, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Key Issues

Many major issues are covered in the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the related Articles [1]:

  • Protection without discrimination (Article 2)
  • All decisions made about children must be in their best interest (Article 3)
  • All young people have "evolving capacities" which must be acknowledged (Article 5)
  • Children have the right to life (Article 6)
  • They have a right to a name and the right to acquire a nationality (Article 7)
  • They have a right to know about their identity (Article 8)
  • They cannot be separated from their parents against their will, except when judged to be in their best interests (Article 9)
  • If a child is capable of forming his or her own views, they also have the right to express those views(Article 12)
  • Children have the right to freedom of expression and information if it is within legal boundaries (Article 13)
  • They have the right to thought, conscience and religion (Article 14)
  • Their rights are protected so no one can interfere with their privacy, family or home (Article 16)
  • Through the use of media children have the right to obtain information that will benefit them (Article 17)
  • The primary responsibility for the upbringing of children lies with their parents or legal guardians (Article 18)
  • Children are to be protected from neglect and abuse (Article 19)
  • Children who are refugees have the right to special assistance and protection (Article 22)
  • Disabled children have the right to special care (Article 23)
  • Children have the right to health services and to have the highest attainable standard of health (Article 24)
  • Children have the right to benefit from social security (Article 26)
  • They have the right to an adequate standard of living (Article 27)
  • They have the right to have access to education (Article 28)
  • If a child is a member of an indigenous or minority group he or she has the right to practice their own religion and culture (Article 30)
  • They have the right to take part in leisure, recreation and cultural activities (Article 31)
  • Children should be protected from economic exploitation (Article 32)
  • They should be protected from illicit drugs (Article 33)
  • They should be protected from sexual exploitation and abuse (Article 34)
  • They have the right to be protected from abduction, sale or trafficking and all other forms of exploitation (Article 35 and 36)
  • Children are not to be subjected to torture, capital punishment or deprivation of liberty (Article 37)
  • If children have faced neglect or abuse etc. the State has the responsibility to take all appropriate measures for rehabilitative care (Article 39)
  • Children have numerous rights in regard to the administration of justice and the criminal procedure (Article 40)

[edit] US Senate ratification

Article says "However, the United States Constitution requires that treaties receive the approval of two-thirds of the Senate". That's a very confusing statement, if you read what Treaty#United_States_law and Foreign_policy_law_of_the_United_States. In short: "treaty" under US constitutional law means something different than what it does under international law. So, although this is a treaty under international law, the US President could have chosen (and maybe even still could choose) to not treat it as a treaty under US constitutional law, and thus ratify it by a different method than the 2/3-rd Senate majority method (the congressional-executive method or the sole executive method.) This is a very murky legal area, but I would venture that a simple answer is that the article doesn't need to comment on this; it can just say "President Clinton chose to submit the treaty to Senate for ratification by a two-thirds majority", which is entirely true, and avoids the issue of whether he could have ratified it another way. --SJK 08:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you're confused - there is no "other way" to ratify a treaty. To be sure, the President can issue orders and Congress can make laws consistent with the treaty, but that doesn't even reach the level of a de-facto ratification, since neither federal orders or federal laws have the authority to override the individual states in many (if not all) of the areas covered by the treaty. --Tim4christ17 talk 15:28, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
In addition, Clinton never submitted it to the Senate, so that is not factually accurate. He only signed it, in 1995. If the US ever became party, advice and consent of the Senate would be required. I don't think there is any plausible argument that the CRC could be treated as anything other than a "treaty" under U.S. law. Further, all other human rights treaties to which the US is a party (eg ICCPR, CERD, CRC Optional Protocols) have had advice and consent of the Senate prior to ratification by the President.Kbaumert 18:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ratification by the US of CRC

The USA has not ratified the CRC because in doing so, they would then be required to appear every 3 or 4 years? before the Committee on the Rights of the Child to explain why 25% of US children are living in poverty and why 40% don't have universal healthcare - insurance coverage .

Child poverty has been eliminated in many European countries and Australia ( effectively at below the 5% mark.)

Canada has still a 15-16% child poverty rate but currently has a "War on Poverty" nationally with a federal election looming possibly in the spring. The talk of a "guaranteed annual income" no matter what is back and very active. Canada's "National Child Supplement" is a form of that guaranteed income for children.

Canada has universal free health care for all of her citizens (obviously including the children)as a human right and some all provinces/territories have at least basic dental plan insurance for children living in poverty.

The USA would be very embarassed to be scrutinized by some meber of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child from some third world country. The USA also has a huge number of people in prison versus other countries, on a per capita basis.

Violent crime rates in most European countries and Australia are 1/10th that of the USA.

The revealing "Bowling for Columbine" documentary revealed that Canadians have 7,000,000 guns for a population of 33 million people and less than 1/19th the per capita muder rate. Same in France, The UK, Australia etc.

Canada has a hybrid of social systems which are part European and part American in content. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Samantha Dean (talk • contribs) 05:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

"The United States has officially become a State Party to the Optional Protocol on the Sale of Children, Child Prostitution, and Child Pornography" on December 24, 2002. <url>http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/16216.htm</url>

I will edit the statement "Most member nation states (countries) of the United Nations have ratified it, either partly or completely" to reflect this. Raggz 00:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The following edit was deleted. It merely states the factual political facts regarding this treaty in the US. "The representatives of the People have decided not to enter into this treaty, and they may do so if they ever desire to do so. It may be that the Constitution of the United States is incompatible with Article 29, and if this is true, the Government of the United States lacks the authority to enter into this treaty unless the Constitution is amended first. If Congress ever were to accept this treaty, this decision would be reviewed by the Judicial Branch and would be invalidated if a conflict were found. There presently is no significant interest within Congress on this treaty. The US federal government (unlike almost all other nations) has limited authority regarding rights of children because the US Constitution makes such laws largely the province of state law." As such, it can all be supported by citations. Which specific parts are challenged as "political opinion"? The entire edit was reverted. If you challenge and discuss objections here, only then may they be addressed. Raggz 05:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
This a good example of what others have been talking about. This is largely composed of hypothetical scenarios (discussing what "may be" or what "would happen"). This cannot, as you say, "all be supported by citations," mainly because it is whole bunch of "if this happens, then this would happen." The point is to present facts, not a series of maybes. Also, if it can be supported by citation (for example, the proposition that there is "presently no significant interest within Congress on this treaty) then add them! As it stands, it's just you saying this is true. I hope this helps. JCO312 01:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
The article suggests that the US has not ratified this treaty. Five years ago the United States said "The United States has officially become a State Party to the Optional Protocol on the Sale of Children, Child Prostitution, and Child Pornography at the United Nations today. The Senate unanimously provided its advice and consent to ratification and President Bush signed the instruments of ratification. This is another example of the commitment of the United States to working with the international community to end abuses and to recognize universal human rights norms. This protocol seeks to protect children from commercial sexual exploitation."[1] Why has this been left out?
Suggested text: On December 24, 2002 the United States officially became a State Party to the Optional Protocol on the Sale of Children, Child Prostitution, and Child Pornography". Raggz (talk) 02:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I believe we have tacit consensus to change this text since the US has partly ratified this treaty (see above). Raggz (talk) 07:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Someone deleted this change without discussion. Why? Raggz (talk) 03:37, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I have three areas of concern about the article as it stands. Firstly, although it is supposed to be about a UN Convention, much of the detail, a disproportionate amount, appears to be about arguments within one of the two countries which has not ratified it. Nor does it present a global viewpoint, but a predominantly US one. It says, "the US is a sovereign nation"; yes, and so are all the countries which have signed it. This material is irrelevant to the article itself and if it belongs anywhere it ought to be forked off to an article about US ratification (with a brief summary on this page). Secondly, the discussion of US ratification is weighted towards opposition to ratification (and has no less than eight citations from David Smolin, non an especially notable figure in the area of children's rights). Thirdly, some of the arguments presented appear to be original research. It is fine to present the arguments of the Heritage Foundation, but some of the supporting comments are interpretations which need to be supported by a citation, not a reference to the original text. --Rbreen (talk) 14:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Convention and international law as an advisory resolution

The United Nations General Assembly agreed to adopt the Convention into international law as an advisory resolution on 1989-11-20. The United Nations Charter does not permit the General Assembly to create international law. All GA resolutions are advisory only. I retained "adopt the Convention into international law" anyway, because the treaty is international law for the signatories. The prior language erroneously suggested that the GA can pass laws. Raggz (talk) 03:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expanding the citation base

There is a need to expand the citations. Only a few sources are used. I suggest that we do more research, so that new cites may replace or augment the few now used? Raggz (talk) 22:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Smolin cites

Michael Smolin is an authority worth citing, but his opinions are in most sections, and he is cited about ten times. I propose that his opinions be limited to one section. Raggz (talk) 21:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Heritage Foundation

The Heritage Foundation is likewise represented more than is ideal. Unlike with Smolin, these are clustered together within a single section. I propose that additional sources be added, and that the opinions of the Heritage Foundation and Michael Smolin be limited to a single section. Raggz (talk) 21:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] World Vision

World Vision's homepage search did not reveal any support for CDAW. I did not delete this text, but instead left a fact tag. Raggz (talk) 21:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Small correction

Citations are to David Smolin.Sweetmoose6 (talk) 04:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Sweetmoose. Raggz (talk) 05:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Michael is his father, an environmental and process engineer.Sweetmoose6 (talk) 00:20, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lack of Citations

There is a lack of citations in this first paragraph from the controversy section. Some of this stuff, particularly the last sentence, is rather controversial. To state for a fact that the U.S. would be embarrassed is quite a statement. This must be cited or removed. I will remove the last sentence of this paragraph (at least) if it is not sourced soon.

Ratification of the UNCRC by the United States would require the U.S. governments to appear before the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child, a panel of child rights experts from around the world, every 5 years to explain their implementation of such issues as universal health insurance for all American children, currently a human right in all other western industrialized nations. As of 2008, 25% of children in the U.S. don't have health insurance. Child poverty rates in America, the highest in the western industrialized nations, would have to be explained as well. Public examination of U.S. policies and direct comparison with those of other countries like the UK, France, Germany, Australia and Canada would prove embarassing internationally.

JBFrenchhorn (talk) 01:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I am going to remove the final two sentences from that paragraph. If somebody can adequately source theme, they can be re-added. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 20:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ratified by East Timor?

Mcintyre, A. (2005). Invisible stakeholders: children and war in Africa. Pretoria: Lesedi Litho Printers. Cited in Abatneh, 2006

The 2006 dissertation linked above says that East Timor ("Timor Leste") is yet to ratify the Convention. Is this still true? --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 19:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)