Talk:Continental Freemasonry

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[edit] NPOV disputed

This article reads like a treatise from the catholic church against freemasonry. It needs a serious look to assert NPOV, facts need to be ascertained, and allegations and weasel words removed. I would suggest speedy deletion for a series non-NPOV writing. docboat 11:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Even the title is somewhat POV. There is only one scholar that calls it "Latin Freemasonry"... and the implication is that all Freemasonry in every "Latin" country is the same.
But more importantly, this article is essentially a POV fork from Catholicism and Freemasonry (which itself was originally somewhat of a POV fork from the main Freemasonry article). The material on the individual "Latin" countries (copied over into this article) is currently being challenged on that page for being a "POV and OR nightmare". Simply copying it over into a new article does not solve these problmes. I will add a OR tag for now... but I would support a speedy delete or AfD nomination. Blueboar 15:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Right off the bat, when it says that one author has used the term, that establishes this as a neologism.--Vidkun 18:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello Brian. To my knowledge you are one of the few Masonic editors I have not dealt with directly. Would you kindly point out which facts are not ascertained and which allegations and weasal words are present? JASpencer 20:56, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi JA! I would reply to your question, but since then so much has already been written to the topic, so I would just sit back and see how it develops. I do think that Blueboar's suggestion just now is worthy of consideration, and I do feel the article will be interesting and informative. docboat 01:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Name

I've looked a bit further. Latin Freemasonry seems to be a fairly common shorthand, but rather dispariging (all three references seem to be from different times and perspectives, but they all seem to dislike Latin Freemasonry). Irregular Freemasonry is a perjorative term from the UGLE freemasons, so while probably the most common English language term it would be equivalent to calling Protestants "schismatics". The two terms that I've found that seem to be self described are "Liberal Freemasonry" from the French and "Adogmatic Freemasonry" from the Belgians.

I prefer "liberal" to "adogmatic" for the following reasons: (1) it comes from the GOdF website; (2) it seems to be in more common currency in the English speaking world; and (3) it just trips off the tongue better.

I'll rename this article to "Liberal Freemasonry" if no-one has any objections.

JASpencer 19:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Eh... it's better, but I still think it is a bit POV. There are liberals and conservatives in all the different traditions of Freemasonry. The vast majority of Masonic scholars (those trying to be neutral on the topic) call it "Continental" or "Oriental" Freemasonry. However, the fact that GoDF uses it does verify the name "officially", so I suppose it is better than nothing.
That said... the name is really secondary to the greater POV and OR issues in the article. And it does not address the fact that this is in essence a POV fork. I really think you would do better by staying at the Catholicism and Freemasonry article and helping us get rid of the POV and OR that is there, rather than copying chunks of it into other articles. All you are doing is spreading the POV and OR around. Blueboar 19:34, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
This is not a POV fork, it's simply a subject that should have had an article years ago.
On the name I take it that you would prefer "Liberal" freemasonry? I wouldn't worry too much about the political connotations as outside the US there is not really the ideological connection.
JASpencer 20:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing the Original Research tag

Where is the original research in this article? It seems that the tag has been simply copied over from the Catholicism and Freemasonry article and in that article the tag applied specifically to a section on Mexico that was deliberately not copied over.

I'm sure that there will be some objections but there really should not be an OR tag unless its explained why in the talk pages.

That's why I'm removing it for now. Feel free to give some specific examples of Original Research on the Talk Page and to add the tag back.

JASpencer 20:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

And I am going to slap it back on... almost every sub-section under the "Anti-clericism" section is OR. It is filled with cherry picked statements from sources taken out of context, and it is especially is filled with WP:SYNT violations. This is all being discussed at Catholicism and Freemasonry (the article you copied the material from)... you can read the discussion there if you need further details. Perhaps, once that article is cleaned up, we can revisit what should go into this article (assuming it hasn't been deleted). Blueboar 21:01, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Per the comments above I've moved the tag from the top of the article to the Relations with the Catholic Church. JASpencer (talk) 19:53, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
So far as I can tell, that section now seems adequately referenced, and I can see no reason to keep the tag there. I am thus removing it, unless I am given reasons as to why it should remain. To say that items are "cherry-picked" is irrelevant, and actually to my eyes is a clear violation of AGF. Other verifiable information could be added by anyone who wishes to do so, but the section itself does seem to be sufficiently well sourced. John Carter (talk) 19:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
It isn't a matter of references, it is a matter of WP:SYNT... while each peice is sourced (often out of context), the problem is primarily lumping them together and to form a conclusion. To remove the tag, we will need a source that takes all of these disperate facts and reaches the same conclusions as are presented in the article. Otherwise it is clearly an OR violation. Blueboar (talk) 22:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge with Catholicism and Freemasonry

For the purposes of centralized discussion, please see Talk:Catholicism and Freemasonry#Proposed merger with Latin Freemasonry. Thank you. John Carter 21:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Let me try to explain something....

The entire Anti-clerical part of this argument is based on some serious misconceptions. At Catholicism and Freemasonry we had the situation where all of Freemasonry was being tarred with the same brush... I think (correct me if I am wrong) this article was created in part because it was understood that this was both POV and incorrect. I think the concept is that if we break off "Latin" Freemasonry into its own article, and re-frame the arguments and allegations so that they talk about only one part of Freemasonry, they will be seen as being more valid. If we use a very broad brush... this is in some ways true. Or at least it is less false than saying they are true of all Freemasonry. In general, those Grand Orients and Grand Lodges that are part of what JASpencer want to call "Latin" (or "Liberal") Freemasonry have been more involved in politics than the mainstreem Anglo branch. And because "Latin" politics is all but inseperable from religious issues (at least historically), "Latin" Freemasonry has also been more involved in religion.

HOWEVER... one can not use a broad brush. While mainstreem Anglo style Freemasonry has remained fairly unified, the same can not be said of "Continental"/"Liberal"/"Latin"/etc. style Freemasonry. That branch is extremely splintered and factionalized. There are something like 800 bodies claiming to be Masonic Grand Lodges or Grand Orients in France alone. All over Europe and Latin America (the two areas of the world where this style of Freemasonry is common) It was very common for splinter groups to break off and form a rival Grand Body (often using the same name, each claiming to be the "true" body). SOME of these bodies have taken formal political stances. But very often, this stance would cause yet another split because there would be a sub-group that would disagree with that stance.

Thus, ANY argument that Freemasonry (even narrowing it further and saying "Latin" Freemasonry) is Anti-clerical is simply incorrect. All you can say is that some Freemasons, or some Freemasonic bodies, were Anti-clerical. But then that is simply a statement that reflects the fact that Freemasons come from a broad spectrum of society. You can just as easily point to Masons and Masonic bodies that were not Anti-clerical. There have been Freemasons on just about every side of every political and religious issue since the 1600s.

Thus, the "nightmare" of the Synt and other OR problems, and the POV problems, that were noted in the original Catholicism and Freemasonry article are still present here. We still have Synt problems such as saying: famous person X was a Freemason, X was anti-Clerical, thus all (Latin) Freemasonry is anti-clerical. We still have selected quotation, cherry picked from sources and taken out of context. And we still have major POV problems.... Only ONE of which is the fact that there is a serious Undue Weight issue here. If this is supposed to be about Latin Lodges, we should not spend over two thirds of the article on allegations of "Anti-clericism". We should be discussing history, we should be discussing ritual and membership requirements, we should be discussing the host of things that make "latin" freemasonry different from other forms of Freemasonry. Blueboar 21:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I, as a practicing Roman Catholic, would have to agree completely with the above. This article is miserably incomplete on several basic issues regarding its somewhat artificially named subject. I acknowledge that there have been at least a few instances where history makes it clear that there was a significant effort within groups of Freemasons as Freemasons to add in an anti-clerical manner. However, history is rife with instances when any number of groups, as groups, misbehaved extremely badly, and it is certainly a gross violation of WP:Undue weight to try to create a separate article on a broad subject and weigh it down with all the negative content this article has.
I have proposed that the Catholicism project consider the Catholicism and Freemasonryarticle from which this content was divided as a collaboration candidate. I've also left messages on the talk pages of both the Freemasonry and Catholicism projects. I sincerely hope that we will have some attention from the members of these groups brought to that article, so that the existing problems there can be addressed. But creating a different article to duplicate the content is not even remotely the right way to go with this. John Carter 22:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
This was not created as an effort to duplicate content. It is a phenomena that needs an article. Taking content from other articles is just a way to quickly create the article. I could not believe that this did not have an article. Looks like wikipolitics will ensure that it won't any more.
As for the incomplete nature of the article, it has been created for 24 hours. To delete/merge what most people seem to acknowledge is an article worthy topic because it is unbalanced after 24 hours seems to contradict WP:AFD that "Pages that can be improved should be edited or tagged, not nominated for deletion". JASpencer 23:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the fact that this was created with what appears to be a bit of a cut and paste within 24 hours of the RCC position on FM article being called into question could be considered to be a little odd, I'm sure you can see why that might be said.
I'm sure there probably is justification for an article around irregular freemasonry, although I'm somewhat surprised that the article as it was created didn't actually discuss much about the philosophy, origins, organisation etc. I'm sure there would be little resistance to that, in fact it would naturally drop out of the existing articles.
I'm sure you appreciate why all that might make this creation seem somewhat odd, but if you can find reliable sources to cover the subject in its entirey, then there is little issue. Feel free to remind me of the volume of references available at present.
ALR 23:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
OK... let's assume good faith and agree that it was not JASpecer's intent to create a POV fork. It does not change the fact that right now, that is what this article amounts to. So how do we fix it. I can agree that an article on "continental style" freemasonry (to use my preferred terminology) might be worthwhile. But not if it contains the same OR and NPOV material currently under discussion at the Catholicism and Freemasonry article. I agree with John Carter that we should clarify and fix the POV issues on that article before copying it into any other article. So how about this... we temporarily cut all of that material. Stubify, and rebuild, focussing on all the other aspects of of Franco/Continental/Liberal/Latin/Irregular Masonry (we can probably spend several days just arguing about what to title such an article). Once the problemes at the Catholicism and Freemasonry article has been fixed to everyone's satisfaction, anything that is in the resulting article that relates to this one can then be imported. Would that be acceptable? Blueboar 01:08, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Don't put yourself under pressure to provide content for someone else's screwup. The subject of irregular freemasonry is briefly alluded to elsewhere, and off-the-cuff that is what this article could/should be redirected to.
BUT: Although I agree that an article on "irregular freemasonry" would cover what the subject of this article purports to cover, the contents of this article are not really about "irregular freemasonry" at all. The subject of the 'Latin Freemasonry' article is a) religion b) criticism of freemasonry.
As such, I consider the material of this article to be the consequence of a failure to not have properly addressed those issues in the first place: If proper "criticism of freemasonry" and "freemasonry and religion"[n1] articles existed, there would be no justification for this one, nor for a slew of others.
Instead of proper development, we have Anti-Masonry and Suppression of Freemasonry and Masonic conspiracy theories; Christianity and Freemasonry and Catholicism and Freemasonry and Mormonism and Freemasonry.
'Latin Freemasonry' is just a "natural" progression of the fragmentation. Got a favourite topic? Lets compare it to something else! "Sources, what sauces? I don' need no steeenkin' saucers!"
Yeah, yeah, the web is great. It won't be long before we have that article on 'Freemasonry and Hot Pink'. Oops! Did I give too much away? ;)
-- Fullstop 04:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
n1:^  also of course to include freemasonry's own take on it.

ALR - of course I appreciate that this looks like an attempt to rescue older material - but it is simply a consequence of that information being the easiest on topic information on hand. If this did not have any information on anti-clericalism then there would be a perception of bias towards the UGLE affiliated lodges. The fact is that Wikipedia is going to reflect the two things that English speakers know about the Latin Lodges - that they are not affiliated with the English speaking Freemasons and that they are or were actively anticlerical. JASpencer 09:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cutting down anti-clericalism section

I have reduced the article by two thirds and sharply pruned the anti-clerical section. I do not think that removing any mention of anti-clericalism is a good idea as the relationship between freemasonry and the church was fundamental in the evolution of the "Latin" Lodges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JASpencer (talk • contribs) 09:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It is better, but still has some problems. I am willing to leave it right now so we can concentrate on the Catholicism and Freemasonry article... we can re-address the issue later. Blueboar 16:17, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name Change

If anyone has a better suggestion than Liberal Freemasonry (the GOdF's term) then I'm all ears. JASpencer 21:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest that it's worth considering the treatment of irregular freemasonry centrally for the moment, potentially on the project talk page, rather than here.
I do think it's worth considering irregular freemasonry, but we should seek to avoid duplication of large chunks of already existing material around principles, organisation, relationships with regular freemasonry etc.
Whilst I realise that GOdF self define as liberal, the implication is that any other form is illiberal, and all over the trivial little question of whether a candidate should be expected to have a belief in a supreme being. Can't see what the issue is myself! Starting with a POV title probably doesn't bode well for a balanced article.
At the moment I think it's more reasonable to continue the consideration of irregular traditions in the main article, and cascade out where there is anything distinctive to discuss.
ALR 21:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Irregular is not a NPOV term, and I would not be surprised if the "irregulars" find this pejorative. Regular masonry on your terms may be a POV term.
On self description, the Orthodox Church or the Church of Christ are rather POV terms as well.
I'd also say that the UGLE seems to regard all self described Freemasons who are not "in amity" with the UGLE as "irregular". So women's lodges in the United States who insist on the Supreme Being would be irregular. Correct me if I'm wrong.
JASpencer 21:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
This is why I prefer the term "Continental Style Freemasonry". For one thing, it the term most often used (well... irregular is more commonly used by "Mainstream" sources... but I would avoid that). Latin is wrong because we are talking about something that is in more that just Latin countries. Liberal is better, but still POV, because it implies that other types of Masonry are illiberal or conservative (and it has non-masonic political connotations). No... I think we should go with what the majority of scholars use and call it "Continental". Blueboar 22:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


I'd agree that irregular is also NPOV, one of my reasons for trying to find an integrated way of considering the situation, rather than adding to the proliferation of short , decontextualised, articles that keep surfacing.
Feminine GLs are also irregular, but based on a different one of the core principles of Freemasonry. Although you'll note that there are two feminine GLs in England, as well as at least one androgynous. Both feminine GLs use exactly the same ritual that I use in one of my Lodges as well, and they use the same regalia suppliers.
In amity with and regular are broadly synonymous in this context. Being in amity allows one to visit lodges in another jurisdiction, so it is a vehicle for propagating recognition, which is based on the aims and relationships statement of the three home GLs.
That recognition is a two way relationship, rather than just a pronouncement. For UGLE, or GLoS, to be in amity with another GL, then that other GL must also be in amity with UGLE or GLoS. Part of the negotiation around that is also related to which other GLs the two parties are in amity with, and the agreement can be ceased unilaterally.

With all this in mind I'm going to copy this to the central project discussion. here

ALR 22:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Does the GDoF regard "irregular" as neutral and descriptive? JASpencer 22:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Blueboar, do you have any backing for the idea that "Continental Style Freemasonry" is the most common term? JASpencer 22:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I don't have a source that says explicitly "'Continental Style Freemasonry' is the most common term used by Masonic Scholars"... my statement comes more from the fact that I have read a whole lot of sources that use the term. I could probably come up with a list of a whole bunch of sources that do so (certainly more than three)... give me a few days. Blueboar 23:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Looking in Google and Yahoo (which is certainly not the final word, but a good start) "Continental Style Freemasonry" gets 2 hits, both from Wikipedia and one from you. MSN gets one. JASpencer 23:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
LOL... you are talking about Freemasonry... an institution that has a median age of membership of around 60... this new fangled computer inter-web thing confuses most of us. It tends to be more of a hard copy oriented institution. As I said, let me have a few days to do some fact gathering. Blueboar 00:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Update: Dispite my comment above, I did do some computer searching... if you drop the word "Style" and simply search "Continental Freemasonry" (linking the words) you get a LOT more hits. I would not call the majority of these hits "scholarly" sources... but they do indicate a wide usage of the term. I will continue to look for high quality (scholarly) sources that we can actually cite if needed. Blueboar 13:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
I had thought of that when looking for the various alternatives to Latin Freemasonry but most of these hits seem to talk about Freemasonry on the continent, not about the particular Latin style of Freemasonry. Of the first three hits I get two on Freemasonry in France in 1853, a Wikipedia article and something on Freemasonry in Europe before 1723. There are some references later on but either they are refering to one book or they are from hostile sources such as biblebelievers.org.au or circleofprayer.com. JASpencer 21:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Still a stub

I don't really mind if it's marked as a stub or not, but I thought that the project tags were supposed to reflect whether the article was marked as a stub, which it isn't (and really should not be for the sake of a content dispute). JASpencer 21:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, you were wrong on the first. Also, lack of balance, which is what I said was the problem, is not a matter of "content dispute" as you misphrase it. By the standards of the project in question, this article is still one in which, to quote the terms of Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment for "Editor's experience", "Any editing or additional material can be helpful". Right now that condition clearly still applies, in the eyes of the members of that project. Other projects may have other opinions, but those opinions do not reflect across the board. John Carter 21:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
As I said I don't have a problem with this, I thought that these things were a bit less subjective. However I have patience. JASpencer 21:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
It really isn't a matter of "subjectivity", it's a matter of "completeness". Any article which clearly presents an unbalanced perspective generally can't be seen as a "start" class, particularly for the group whose position is apparently underrepresented. Separate projects often have separate ratings, based on the relative quality of the content directly related to them. It's been "suggested" to me elsewhere that I not change existing A-Class ratings for other projects, even after the article fails A-Class review for the Biography project, because different projects deal with different content. That is also the case here. John Carter 21:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
That is subjective. But I'm not going to worry about this. JASpencer 21:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
No, actually it isn't. The content is clearly one-sided, and that is not "subjective". And if you're "not going to worry about it", please feel free to stop arguing about it as well. Thank you. Remember, I'm a practicing Roman Catholic myself, but I recognize content which does not even come close to meeting NPOV standards requires substantive content from the underrepresented POVs to even be likely to withstand a deletion discussion. Right now, this article, without such additional balancing content, very likely might not if it were proposed. John Carter 22:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
This isn't an argument, but if something is defined by the subject's point of view (in this case the Freemasonry Project) then it is subjective. That is not a pejorative term. JASpencer 22:14, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps a better way of phrasing it would be "lacks even start-grade content regarding the content with which this project specifically deals", which is an objective rating regarding the content that project would add. Anyway, if this entire argument from your side is semantic, as you seem to imply, I really question whether it belongs on this page? John Carter 22:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
As I said, fine. A cowan like me has no business in dealing with the project. I only thought I was helping. JASpencer 23:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CLIPSAS

If we are going to add membership in CLIPSAS to the definition, then we definitely need to change the name away from "Latin" Freemasonry. That organization includes bodies that are in no way shape or form "Latin". I also would have to seriously examine how any discussion of "Anti-clericism" was presented... some of these Masonic bodies have never expressed or been accused of any anti-clerical views. Blueboar 00:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Have to agree. It's kind of hard to call the George Washington Union of New York "Latin". John Carter 01:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Or the Liberal Grand Lodge of Turkey, The Nederlandse Grootloge der Gemengde Vrijmetsalerij, or the Großorient von Österreich (although that last one is at least in a Catholic country). :>) Blueboar 02:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not against renaming this to either Liberal or Adogmatic (as they are self descriptions), but that said Latin Freemasonry was a fairly common term used by Freemasons, Catholics and newspapers. The French and (to a lesser extent) Italians were the motivating force behind the anti-Supreme Being groups. The George Washington Union, for example was chartered by the GOdF.
CLIPSAS was set up by the French, although they left it in 1996 (with the Belgians). I have no idea what the disagreement was. JASpencer 10:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I still think that "Continental" is the more common term, and should therefore be used (that is how the English Wikipedia works). Of the hits that I got doing a simple Google search (searching "Continental Freemasonry")... These: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], and [9]... (I stopped there... the list goes on)... all use "Continental" in discussing the GOdF style of Freemasonry we are talking about. These sources are from a wide spectrum of websites... Masonic, Catholic, scholarly and completely unscholarly... even complete loonies. I don't present them as "reliable sources" (although some might be) but simply as a demonstration of wide spread usage for a term. And this is just what can be found on the internet (which is not really the best place to look for reliable information on Freemasonry). A search on "Liberal Freemasonry" gets significantly fewer hits. Blueboar 14:01, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Continental is fine, it is more neutral than anything else (apart from perhaps "Latin"). It is a bit confusing because of the regular lodges in France and Italy and the liberal lodges on the continent - which would apply equally to Latin. I'm not sure why you are so against the usage of the self description "liberal" but I know that there are many "liberal" and "conservative" Catholics who are rather different in their political outlook. JASpencer 14:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I think that's probably it. Also, remember that the Liberal Party in many countries has explicitly political views, and that it might even be the case when "liberal" Freemasons active oppose the standards of their local Liberal Party. The word "democratic" might well have the same problems in several countries. John Carter 17:06, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
That is acceptable for now, but under WP:NCI we should "Use the name(s) and terminology that the individual or organization themselves use." It's not a policy that I'm going to the baricades for. JASpencer 17:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, if you demonstrate that many of the various groups do individually describe themselves as "liberal", I wouldn't object. Also, I have to think that at some point maybe an amity page or link should be created which could indicate which lodges are in amity with each other, as right now just italicizing a term with a specific meaning which isn't inherently obvious in the word itself can be slightly confusing to newcomers. Anyway, just a thought. John Carter 17:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
And just to make my position clear... I don't object to "Liberal"... I just think "Continental" is preferable. Blueboar 20:49, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
George Washington Union use the terms "progressive" and "liberal", the [GOdF use the term "Liberal", Clipsas calls it "liberal" and the Belgians call it "adogmatic". None of them call themselves "irregular", "latin" or "continental". JASpencer 21:03, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
So, presumably, there would be no objection to those words being included in those specific articles. It would be WP:SYNTH to automatically assume that they would apply to other articles as well, without individual sourcing. Use of the word "irregular" also strikes me as being inherently POV, as that seems to be determined by one particular group. I do believe that we would be best served by creating the article Amity (Freemasonry) or a similar one such I suggested above, which would be able to indicate in a NPOV way how these various bodies relate to and see each other. John Carter 21:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I really don't care whether this is named "continental" or "liberal". If fewer people are going to complain if we go against Wikipedia policy and ignore self-descriptions, then so be it. Liberal freemasons are rare on the English wikipedia and regular freemasons are common - so it's probably a good call as less noise will be made. Wikipedia policy is designed to settle arguments, and if there's no argument then there's no need for Wikipedia policy. If a liberal freemason (or a Scandanavian or German regular freemason) were to object to being misdescribed then things would be different, but they aren't so Continental Freemasonry is fine. JASpencer 21:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pro "regular" Masonry POV?

The article as it stands seems to have a very pronounced bias toward what calls itself "regular" Freemasonry. I have to believe that all such indications of "choice" regarding this matters are very possibly violations of WP:NPOV. It is not the place of the body which continues to bear the name of an organization to say that those who separated from that body are the ones who changed. In fact, it is regularly contended that by many of these so-called "splinter" organizations that they maintain the true traditions, and that the so-called "main" body was the one that deviated from the original principles. We, as objective outsiders, really cannot take a position one way or another. I honestly believe that this content, which seems to reflect a possible inherent "regular" Freemasonry POV, should be removed as being inherently POV. John Carter 22:06, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure where you see this "bias"... the article does not really discuss the differences between "Mainstream" and "irregular" Masonry much at all. I assume that when the article is fleshed out, it will accurately and neutrally discuss these differences.
As for your arguments about "splinter" organizations... Not in this case. Since the founding of the first Grand Lodge, there was a clear requirement, in written constitutions, that members had to profess a belief in a Supreme Being (God), and that atheists could not be made Masons. In the 1870s GOdF chose to change that long standing landmark and started to admit atheists. It was this change in their constitutions that caused the majority of Masonic jurisdictions withdraw recognition and that eventually resulted in the split into two branches that we have today. The GOdF knew that it was taking Freemasonry into a new direction... I am sure they thought that this change was the right thing to do... but they knew it was a change. Blueboar 22:39, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Blueboar, while I see your point (after all these rules were made up in a fiercely Protestant country - giving the Deity His due would be necesary in ALL similar groups at that time) there is an alternative view, which may or may not be plausible. Essentially the argument seems to be that there were progressive falls (1738, 1838 and 1929) from the original perfection of Anderson's constitution. I don't know who's right, but there IS another argument. JASpencer 23:17, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't disagree. In fact, that is why building an article on Continental Freemasonry is a good thing. It gives us a chance to examine the issues from several prospectives. My point was simply that GOdF did indeed opt to abandon a standing landmark and change the rules for who can be admitted... I did not mean to imply whether the change was "right", "wrong", or any other value judgement. I totally agree that we can and should discuss that event in a NPOV way. Blueboar 01:18, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I've asked User:Liberal Freemason to comment, he used to edit these pages, and although he was rather aggressive he's the only one that I know of. JASpencer 14:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The use of the word "irregular", which is seemingly only used by the so-called "regular" Freemasons, gives an inherent and explicit bias to the article, as it seems to indicate that the so-called "regular" masons are the ones whose opinion is of primary importance in such matters. As such, it is, at least to my eyes, blatant pushing of the "regular" Freemasonry POV. And, in direct response to Blueboar, such an action which took place as a result of cultural changes which could not have been anticipated in advance, specifically the anti-religious slant, could just mean that they were responding to the atheistic, but still possibly ethical, developments of the time. Again, it could be reasonably argued that they were simply adjusting the no-outdated concept that to be a "good man" one had to embrace a religious creed. For an organization which apparently opposed the overlap between church and state, embracing such individuals who rejected church, but not socially beneficial behavior, could be seen as being a natural development in changing circumstances. Several religious groups, including mainline Mormonism, have made such changes as well. John Carter 14:37, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
As far as the terms "regular" and "irregular" go... they are a terms of art used in the Masonic world. The term "regular" is not dissimilar to the term "Catholic". In general, when we say "Catholic" we mean the Roman Catholic Church, even though other denominations consider themselves to be "Catholic" (the Anglican Church for example).
Using the terms "regular" and "irregular" is not in itself an indication of bias. You just have to tell the entire story. It is true that the "Continental" lodges consider themseves to be "regular"... and this should indeed be discussed in the article. It should also be mentioned that the vast majority of Masonic Grand Bodies, representing the vast majority of Masons (over a million members) consider these lodges (with total membership only in the thousands) to be "irregular". It isn't bias to say this.
As far as your comments on the developements of the time go... you are absolutely correct. During the mid to late 1800s Continental Europe was in political turmoil... issues of nationalism were competing with religious issues. The Church was seen by many (more than just Masons) as being reactionary and anti-democratic. There was indeed a general "atheistic" societal trend that influenced GOdF. This was definitely part of the background behind GOdF's decision. And I agree that all of this needs to be discussed in the article. We also should discuss the political background that led to UGLE (and subsequently other Grand Lodges) declairing them to be "irregular" for making this descision. Blueboar 15:37, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
If you can demonstrate to me that any of the groups which are all called "irregular" ever describe themselves prominently by that term, then I will believe you. Otherwise, if the term is used almost exclusively as a descriptor by so-called "regular" freemasonry, it is very clearly an indication of a biased usage of one group's language, and thus that group's POV. John Carter 15:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
The use of the term isn't something that is limited to UGLE and those in amity with it. The "Continental" lodges have their own list of lodges and Grand bodies they consider to be "irregular". Like the term "Catholic", "regularity" is a self-definition ("We are regular... They are irregular"). I doubt any Masonic body calls itself "irregular" (even a five person lodge with no recognition by anyone will consider themseves "regular")... What I am trying to say here is that the term itself is not bias... it just needs to be explained and put into context if you are going to use it in an article. That UGLE and the majority of Freemasonry consideres the "Continental" branch to be "irregular" because they admit atheists (and/or admit women) is a simple fact that can be verified. That GOdF and the other "Continental" bodies disagree with this, and consider themselves "regular" is also a verifiable fact. Stating these facts is not bias. Stating that one view or the other is "right" probably would be. Blueboar 16:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
If the term cannot be used without reflecting some sort of bias, however, then I clearly think you would agree that it would probably be best not to use the term at all, but rather a more neutral term. I suggested above that an article on Amity (Freemasonry) would be very useful, as it would help define the meaning of the term and could even indicate which bodies are in and not in amity with the others. I believe such a suggestion is still sensible, as that word, and its various alternate forms, does seem to be one that all the bodies in question use regarding themselves and others. Also, it could help present the specific nature of the relationship between the larger bodies which either merit or already have extant articles. John Carter 16:13, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
This would be OK, but the whole history and philosophical views of this strand would not be covered and so it could not replace this article. JASpencer 22:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Wasn't thinking it would. Clearly, as the French Lodge in effect established the need for such differentiation. I was honestly just thinking of the Amity page as being basically just a definition and a list of "who is" and "who is not" in amity. John Carter 22:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Losing text

Is it just me... or has this talk page been hidden in some way? Blueboar 14:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I can't see it either. I thought it was just me as well. JASpencer 14:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Should be sorted now. I think the wikiproject tag is a problem here. JASpencer 14:43, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Yup... it's affecting all of the articles that have a Project Freemasonry template. I have asked for help. Blueboar 14:59, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Its been fixed. Blueboar 15:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What about today?

I do agree that the issue of Anti-clericism should be adressed (just make sure that it is done in with a NPOV and without slipping into OR)... but that raises another issue. In all of the other articles that touch upon this subject (Catholicism and Freemasonry, Grand Orient de France, etc.) we tend to focus on the 19th and early 20th centuries... but what about today? Are these bodies still expressing Anti-clerical sentiments? We touch upon this with GLdF's recent statement about Laicite... we should find out what the other Grand Lodges and Grand Orients have to say on the matter (if they do say anything... and if they don't say anything, that too should be mentioned... as it is something of an indication that this is no longer an issue as far as they are concerned). Just some food for thought and something for someone to research. Blueboar 01:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German version

There's a German article on the subject here:

Liberale_Freimaurerei

JASpencer 22:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name Change again

So the name needs to be changed. That seems to be the agreement. Here are the suggestions, can people think of any more? I'm going to cover four areas - Neutrality, Inclusiveness, Clarity, Usage.

  • Latin
Neutrality - compared to some of the ones below it's rather NPOV
Inclusiveness - There are some problems with the idea that it also covers some non-Romance speaking lodges.
Clarity - Well it sounds rather romantic
Usage - used by a few sources, although does not seem to be a self description
  • Continental or Continental European Style
Neutrality - Quite NPOV
Inclusiveness - Does not seem to deal with the fact that it is very powerful in Latin America, or that exclusively Christian lodges are quite strong in Scandanavia and (possibly) Germany
Clarity - Reasonably descriptive
Usage - used quite a lot by UGLE affiliated scholars
  • Irregular
Neutrality - Very POV, implies that this strand of freemasonry is not legitimate
Inclusiveness - Seems to also allow for other fringe or occult lodges and co-freemasonry
Clarity - Masonic jargon
Usage - Quite common, but exclusively used, among UGLE lodges.
  • Liberal
Neutrality - There have been objections that this has political conotations and that UGLE freemasons are therefor not liberal
Inclusiveness - Liberal could confuse with a political stance
Clarity - Meaning is fairly clear
Usage - Self description, and used by some outside these lodges
  • Adogmatic
Neutrality - Can be objectionable to UGLE freemasons as it implies that UGLE are dogmatic
Inclusiveness - Not used by anyone else
Clarity - Very rarely used in English
Usage - Self description, but not used outside these lodges (comment: which lodges?)
  • Oriental
Neutrality - Reasonably neutral
Inclusiveness - There are a few UGLE type organisations that are Orients (eg Brazil), while there are more CLIPSAS aligned Grand Lodges(eg Austria)
Clarity - In English Oriental tends to apply to East Asia
Usage - Rarely used

This is just to kick things off. If people think that I've missed any out or that this may not be reflecting concerns, then please let me know.

JASpencer (talk) 10:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Definitely NOT Adogmatic. ALL of Freemasonry is adogmatic ... Freemasonry does not have a dogma. Even if you wanted to stretch the meaning of that term, since each GL creates its own rituals and symbology etc. it still does not apply. Of all of these choices, I would go with either Continental or Liberal... the first is the most commonly used in Masonic scholarship (admittedly, most of that scholarship is from Anglo/US sources), the second has the advantage of being a self-description. Another choice is "Oriental" (as in "Grand Orient")... but that isn't used all that much in scholarship; is misleading in that there are Grand Orients that are in Amity with UGLE and Grand Lodges that fall into the Continental/Liberal/GOdF category; and the average non-Masonic reader would think of it in Geographic terms and think that we are referring to lodges in East Asia.
Part of the problem with naming this article is that it is trying to lump together bodies that don't completely go together. Saying that there are two clear cut groups ("Anglo/Traditional/Regular style" and "Continental/Liberal/GOdF style") is a huge over simplification. Any division will end up being POV from the start... because it depends on who is doing the division... Grand Lodge A recognizes Grand Lodges B, C, and D, but not E and F. Grand Lodge B, meanwhile, recognizes A, C, D... but they disagree with A in that they recognize E (but B agrees with A that F if beyond the pale). Grand Lodge F, however, recognizes everyone (including quasi-Masonic group G, which is why none of the others recognize it) etc. etc. etc.
It also depends on when you do the division... Grand Lodge E might have recognized F at one point, but dropped recognition at a subsequent point. So do we say that they are part of a common group or not? It depends on whether we are discussing things today or things in the past.
The article assumes a "UGLE vs Other" division, with the idea that it will talk about the "other"... but in reality we should be talking about several "others"... and how you discribe and name things will depend on which of these many "others" are we talking about.
Another problem is that JAS is coming at this from a Catholic POV. That in itself is not wrong... but it does influence what is being attempted here. This article really started out as an article on "Anti-Clerical Freemasonry"... now, I do understand that the intent is to grow the article beyond that initial POV fork. But the fact that the article did start as a POV fork still influences how these Grand Lodges and Grand Orients are being lumped together. Because JAS started the article to discuss a division based on historical antagonism with the Catholic Church, we end up trying to discuss a unit that has no real unity. Each body being discussed ended up in antagonism with the Church for unique (mostly political) reasons. The article is based on an attempt to meld a Church view of Freemasonry with a Masonic view of Freemasony... and those two views just don't meld. I am not sure what the solution to that is. Blueboar (talk) 15:08, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


I think we have a misunderstanding here. This is not a question of two clear cut groups. This is an article about an identifiable strand of Freemasonry - those that remained in amity with the Grand Orient de France after its schism with the UGLE. I fully accept that although Latin Freemasonry is the largest and most important "irregular" strand, it's by no means the only one.
On the question of adogmatic - I think what they claim is that the requirement to believe in God and the sould are dogmas which they don't insist on. I didn't realise that it was such an issue, and I've changed the scoreboard accordingly. Personally I prefer liberal to adogmatic of the self-descriptions, and I don't think that the political implication are that big - but it's easy for a Catholic to say that when he's grown up with "liberal Catholics" who are politically conservative and vice versa.
I've added oriental to the scorecard as well.
As for the points on anti-Clericalism and the lack of importance it seems to look at the past with the eyes of the present. Liberal/Latin freemasonry certainly seems to be less of a force to be reckoned with than in the past. However from the 1860s (I know that's before the schism) until the 1930s it was an important factor - invariably on the liberal and anti-clerical sides - in the politics of a number of different countries.
On unity - again we are looking at the past with the eyes of the, very recent, present. Until the French and Belgians walked out of CLIPSAS (does anyone know why?) there was a reasonable degree of unity between these bodies.
Obviously I reject the idea that this is a POV fork. There was simply no article on what was a very important subject. I would suggest that this is a result of a systematic bias. As MSJapan has said there is a general lack of interest in English speaking masonic circles, thus no article.
JASpencer (talk) 18:40, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
When I can get to the Axelrod encyclopedia, I'll look for whatever name he refers to this group as, and let you know. That probably won't be till Wednesday, though. Presumably, the name used in one of the leading guides to this general subject area would be acceptable. Oh, and, for what it's worth, Axelrod specifically uses the phrase "secret society" three separate times regarding Freemasonry in the intro to his Freemasonry article on page 90, which is itself six pages of a roughly 250 page book. I tend to think that probably establishes that Freemasonry meets at least his definition of a secret society. John Carter (talk) 18:45, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I suppose what I am getting at with my "unit that has no unity" comment is that there is no "unity" even within the bodies that the Grand Orient de France recognizes. Some have been anti-clerical at some point in their history, others have not. Some accept Atheists, others do not. Some have been heavily political, others have not. Some admit women, others do not. etc. Also, the list of who is recognized and who isn't has shifted through the years. So the time period that we are talking about impacts what we say. This is why I think it is so difficult to put a label on this "strand" of Freemasonry... it is a moving target. Even if you define it based on recongnition by UGLE (the "regular" vs "irregular" labeling), it isn't always clear which "strand" one is talking about. Again, GLs have been added or dropped from the list through the decades and centuries. You are seeing order and unity where there isn't order and unity.
Even saying that there was unity by being members of CLIPSAS is not quite right... membership in CLIPSAS does not necessarily equate to recognition and intervisitation... and it especially does not mean a similar set of landmarks and beliefs. CLIPSAS was designed to foster inter-jurisdictional cooperation at the leadership level, but the association does not equate to unity the way formal recognition and Amity does. I suppose you could equate it to being a member of the G8 as opposed to being in the European Union. In one the members agree to cooperate for a common ecconomic goal, in the other they agree to share common laws, common currency and allow free travel between states. Blueboar (talk) 20:01, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Taking the above as given, there remains a serious problem about what to name such a group. Personally, I can't object to using the current name, and, perhaps, turning it into an expanded history/disambiguation page, detailing the history of the "separatist movement" it describes and perhaps providing links to the relevant bodies of that "movement" as they appear in the history of the subject. And, again, if there is a name given to this grouping in the Axelrod book, that might be acceptable, as it would be the name that the group is referred to in at least one of the leading sources on the subject. I wish I had access to various encyclopediae of freemasonry, but I don't that I know of right now. The titles given the relevant similar articles in those volumes would presumably be ones to be considered as well. John Carter (talk) 22:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Minor note: in the "Oriental" option above, I changed the example of a UGLE recognized Grand Orient... JAS had listed the Italy as the example... but UGLE doesn't recognize the Grand Orient of Italy (it recognizes the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy... see: this list from the UGLE website.) I substituted Brazil instead. Blueboar (talk) 16:17, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Addendum... actually it looks as if the Grand Orient of Brazil is the only "Orient" that UGLE recognizes... at least according to the website. I don't know if the website is all inclusive, however, so I have querried at the main Freemasonry talk page to see if someone from the UK knows of any others. Blueboar (talk) 16:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd be cautious of attributing the absence of recognition to anything specific, other than France of course. UGLE, in common with most other regular GLs, limits recognition to one GL in any geographic area. PH GLs are really the only exception to this.
ALR (talk) 20:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with the lead

The lead needs a major rewite... it currently states: Latin Freemasonry is a term a number of authors have given for the Masonic lodges, mainly in countries speaking Romance languages, that recognise the Grand Orient de France (GOdF) or belong to CLIPSAS. Alternative terms include Liberal Freemasonry, Adogmatic Freemasonry or Irregular Freemasonry.

The problem is that all these terms are not completely interchangable. There are "Latin" lodges that do not recognize GOdF (or are recognized by GOdF), nor belong to CLIPSAS. And the terms "Liberal Freemasonry" and "Irregular Freemasonry" include a lot more than just "Latin" lodges (I am less definite on Adogmatic, as this is the first time I have seen the term used)... they also are used for more than GOdF lodges or CLIPSAS lodges.

I think part of the problem stems from the fact that while the terms are not interchangable, they can and do overlap... you can have a Liberal lodge that also is a Latin lodge, and is considered Irregular by a third lodge (which might also be a Liberal, Latin lodge itself). But the overlap is not all encompassing... not all Irregular lodges are Liberal (some are considered Irregular for other reasons)... and not all Liberal lodges are Latin. Toss in Irregularity and we really messed things up, since irregularity is defined by individual Grand Lodges and Grand Orients and basically can be defined as "anything we don't recognize as being regular". Blueboar (talk) 18:36, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Irregularity is a red herring to be honest. Latin Freemasonry is irregular, but so is (or was or sort of is) Prince Hall Freemasonry, the occult groups, co-freemasonry, the Swedish rite(?), etc. Yes Latins are irregular but that's only one part of the whole thing. They are also very political, they have had a poor relationship with the Catholic Church and they explicitly accept atheists.
That said I agree that the lead needs some sort of change.
JASpencer (talk) 19:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
OK... then that brings us back to whether to change the article title... are we just talking about "Latin" Freemasonry (even though I disagree with the term, I do understand what is being discussed)... are we talking "Liberal" Freemasonry (a slightly broader topic)... are we talking "Irregular" Freemasonry (an extraordinarily broad topic... and one that will take a lot of explaining and caveats, as it depends on who is doing the defining. Even UGLE is irregular to someone after all.) Given what I think the article is trying to discuss... we probably want to go with Liberal .... of course, as I have stated elsewhere, I prefer "continental tradition" but I could live with "Liberal" as it is used as a self-reference. Blueboar (talk) 21:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I think there is a need to first clarify which branch of Freemasonry or bodies which style themselves Freemasonry this article is discussing. It appears to me that it was first created as a reaction to criticism of another article, and the present structure reflects that basis for creation. From the abortive naming discussion above it's clear that some confusion remains about who to include. Only once scope is defined can the name and content be addressed.
That said, I object to Liberal, a result of the implications, although the self description could potentially be used in the body of the article.
ALR (talk) 22:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
There are people who argue that the UK Liberal Democrats are neither liberal nor democratic. And who cares, Liberal Democrats are a self description. JASpencer (talk) 23:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Analogy is rarely an effective approach to developing a coherent argument. Are you suggesting that the various branches of Freemasonry and organisations which style themselves Freemasonry are inherently similar to political parties?
So which particular branch ar eyou seeking to encompass in this article, once you've identified that then there should be some clarity about what direction it should go.
ALR (talk) 23:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I think JAS is trying to say that there is a branch of Freemasonry that calls itself "Liberal Freemasonry" ... and that because they call themselves by that name, so can we. (His reference to the Liberal Democrats is an analogy ... essentially saying that Liberal Freemasonry does not have to be liberal in politics to use the term in their name... similar comments have been made about various Christian Democratic parties in Europe... that they are neither Christian nor Democratic). I am not sure if I agree with the idea that there is a definable branch that uses the term... but I do get what he is talking about. Blueboar (talk) 00:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
The analogy is fundamentally flawed. Liberal Democrats is the name of the party, not a self description. At the risk of a significant diversion there are two major groupings within the party; social and economic liberals. Clearly the two schools of thought aren't particularly compatable. The Lib-Dems don't claim liberalism to be their sole preserve. Liberal Freemasonry is a self description, not a title and the usage has clear implications for other branches of Freemasonry, indeed the usage is quite explicit, those branches of Freemasonry which require one to have a belief in a Supreme Being are inherently illiberal.
ALR (talk) 14:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
We seem to be going around and a round here. NONE of the proposed titles seem to work. The problem is that we are trying to lump several seperate things under a single lable. We can discribe what we are talking about, but there is no acceptable NAME for what is being discribed. I don't know if there is a solution out of this. Blueboar (talk) 14:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, Latin is definitely bad - the Google hits are erratic as to what it means, but generally it is limited to South America, which is not the real focus of the article. However, in other cases it refers to GODF, and it seems to be author-dependent. I haven't gone through all the discussion, but can we get away with "Continental Masonry?" MSJapan (talk) 18:24, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
The VGLvD (regonized by UGLoE) is also "continental" and there are other island than England...
"Liberal Freemasonry" is a common term as Freemasonry itself. E.g. there's the Liberal Grand Lodge of Turkey and the Liberale Großloge von Österreich and they are mainly members of Clipsas. --Liberal Freemason (talk) 15:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Restoration of OR tag?

I believe it is somewhat required that the party who insisted restoring this tag stating clearly and explicitly what OR he sees. I also hope that he realizes the difference between OR and POV, a differentiation he has previously seemed to have difficulty making. John Carter (talk) 22:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Please assume good faith, as I do understand the difference (I am quite active on both policy pages) ... and the section in question has issue with both policies. As far as stating the reasons for the OR tag ... I have done so above, but I will do so again here... The biggest problem is that the entire section is a WP:SYNT violation (a sub-part of WP:NOR). It takes disperate facts and places them together in a way that forms a novel conclusion. While each seperate part is cited, when placed together they form a synthesis that is not cited (A + B = C). To solve this problem we need a single source that has taken all the parts and reached the same conclusions. A few of the individual citations also have OR issues... they constitute "cherry picking" quotes... taking statements from sources out of context and using them in a manner that goes beyond what the original source intends. Blueboar (talk) 23:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name change - let's finalize this

The issue of what to title this article has fallen by the wayside for a while... It is time to settle it. Above, we list the various reasons for and against our options... but we leave out one of the most inportant. What Wikipedia policy states on the matter. Since our last discussion, I have had a chance to familiarize myself with the Wikipedia:Naming conventions... The guideline seems clear that we should use whichever name is the most commonly used by English speakers (as this is the English version of Wikipedia), with any alternate names listed in bold in the lead.

So I thought I would see what the usages on the web (as determined through a simple Google search) came out to. The breakdown is as follows:

The break down is essentially the same if you substitute the shorthand "Masonry" in place of "Freemasonry" ("Continental Masonry" gets the vast majority of hits).

While I have no handy way of compiling usage in purely print sources, I know from my own reading and experience that the breakdown is even more in favor of "Continental".

I therefor formally Propose that we change the name of this article to "Continental Freemasonry", with the others listed in bold in the lead. Are there any objections? Blueboar (talk) 18:50, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds OK. Is this a self description?
You also have the Grand Lodge of Liberal Freemasons in Turkey, which seems like quite a self description. If anyone can think of other "liberal" sites with a decent sampling of English language pages it would be useful.
So I personally prefer liberal freemasonry as it seems to be the prefered self description, as continental never seems to be used by them.
JASpencer (talk) 20:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Again, we have the issue of "Continental = Europe, Latin = Central and/or South America", so I don't agree with either of those terms unless we are focusing specifically on Masonry in those areas. "Adogmatic" assumes the rest of Masonry is dogmatic, which I don't agree with - the WP article on dogma claims a pejorative usage outside of religious context anyhow. A lot of the hits, BTW, are because that is what is pertinent to the group. I would suggest that we use "Liberal" and see whre it goes. BTW, if we're going to go with "Liberal", a workable solution regardless of the AfD outcome is to merge SIMPA, CLIPSAS, and Catena in here as subsections. I can't really agree with enough general notability to justify the separate articles, but I wouldn't see a problem with a mention in the article here. MSJapan (talk) 21:14, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes... EACH of the possible names have good reasons to choose it ... and EACH has good reasons not to choose it. This is why I went with what is recommended at WP:NAME... and looked at raw usage numbers. To me this ends up being the most dispassionate and NPOV method of choosing between equally unacceptable names. It also has the benefit of most closly following wikipedia policy (although I do understand that we could invoke IAR if we wished to do so.) The "Continental = Europe" issue can easily be explained by including a prominent statement in the lead to the effect that the term encompasses lodges in other parts of the world. All that said... if the consensus is for "Liberal Freemasonry"... let's go with that and move on.
On the SIMPA, CLIPSAS, and Catena AfD issues... that is a debate best kept at the AfD for the moment. But I do agree with MSJapan... we should consider merging those articles into this one, whatever the result of the AfD, and however we end up naming this article. Blueboar (talk) 23:16, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

If it's in WP:NAME then I'm fine with Continental Freemasonry. I thought that the policy was towards self descriptions. As far as the merging goes, I don't think that's a very good idea. JASpencer (talk) 20:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I thought so too... but when I reviewed the guideline I found otherwise. Self-identification seems to be the choice for categorization but not for article names. Live and learn. Blueboar (talk) 21:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
We certainly could go with Continental Freemasonry and turn Liberal Freemasonry and any other potential names into redirects to it. Certainly, we've done the effective equivalent with any number of saints, churches, and the like. Regarding the proposed mergers, I think that we might be able to find more material to justify these articles later. So, while I am not completely opposed to such a merger, I would like to give it some time, maybe a few months?, to see what development takes place in the interim. Then we would have a better idea regarding the likely extent of the articles. John Carter (talk) 21:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I've renamed the article. I hope that I haven't been too hasty. JASpencer (talk) 23:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)