Talk:Contact juggling

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[edit] Reliable Source

Gujamin of the contactjuggling Yahoo discussion group proposed the idea of a contact juggling convention and various locations were proposed, ultimately settling on Florida as the location for the first convention in Sept. 2001. The first convention was funded and organized by a contact juggler named Ferret, and had an attendance of only about 35 people. Rich Shumaker helped Ferret with this convention and filmed the ill-fated competition. Future Contact Juggling conventions in 2002 and 2003 did not have competitions. [citation needed]
Original Discussion on Yahoo by Gujiman - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contactjuggling/message/333
Chico Asks What is Going on - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contactjuggling/message/1368
Ferret takes over - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contactjuggling/message/1387?var=1&l=1
Surveys are handed out via the net - filled out - and we are all set
1 Problem - Ferret lives in FL not GA - So the venue is switched to FL
Link to the CJC2001 Convention Videos - http://www.youtube.com/user/contactjugglingorg - This link should be added to the Links Section as it does not exist on any of the Links to Links Pages(DMOZ, ect.) I have no idea how to create a reference link inside the page so I made it here (Help link this on the main page)

--RichShumaker (talk) 00:50, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External links

There seem to be too many external links in the article, especially going to one domain. (The blatant advertisement on this talk page above doesn't help either.) I suggest they should be trimmed back. —Wrathchild (talk) 18:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I did extensive trimming to the external links section. The DMOZ category offers a huge list of links, so linking to it should be sufficient, although I did leave a couple of other links too. Rray 08:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The links should be reinstated... after a lengthy discussion with several other CJers we have come to the conclusion that those links should be there, although the DMOZ does provide a wealth of links, the important ones (IE: the links that provide people with a way to extend their knowledge of Contact Juggling) should be there, I will be editing some of the links back in. Moka20 02:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC):

It's not up to "several other CJers" whether or not the links should be included. Decisions here are made by a consensus of Wikipedia users. The links you included aren't appropriate since they're included in the DMOZ listings, which is an extensive resource and provides the links you re-added and quite a few more. Wikipedia is not a link directory.
Please don't re-add those links until a consensus is reached here on the talk page. You should review Wikipedia:External_links.Rray 04:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest that if a number of those members of wikipedia who have actual experience with the subject under discussion and are discussing them on the talk page believe the links should be reinstated, they should be. Who better to determine which links are useful than those who practice contact juggling? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashamaleigh (talk • contribs) 20:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
The Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding external links. Longs lists of external links are discouraged. If you have a specific change you want to see, you should bring it up and be specific. (This conversation has been here for six months by the way.) Also, you shouldn't assume that other users don't have actual experience with a particular subject. In this case, I do have experience with this particular subject, and I'm the one who trimmed out most of the excessive external links. Rray (talk) 21:26, 14 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Pen spinning....

cannot be considered a sub-discipline of contact juggling. Any justification for this? Its related in that it deals with the manipulation of an object that doesn't leave the skin - but so is brushing one's teeth. I've moved the link under a 'See also' header. Laurence9993 16:13, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

As a ball contact juggler, I agree to your statement for the most part. The definition can be absurdly broad. Kind of a "I know it when I see it" thing. For example, Contact Staff isn't mentioned on this article at all. Although it is relatively widespread in the staff spinning community and gaining an incredibly following. 66.119.27.235 19:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't completely agree with your generalization. Contact juggling includes a dynamic component, i.e. movement that can't be reproduced statically. If you stopped moving your hand while brushing your teeth, the tooth brush isn't likely to fall out of your hand. Ceran 04:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Pen Spinning could and should be considered a sub category because you are keeping it in contact with your body. Thus juggling it in contact with your body. - Rich Shumaker —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichShumaker (talk • contribs) 23:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Including information about pen spinning is fine provided there are reliable sources that can be cited which define pen spinning as a category of contact juggling. Otherwise it's considered original research. Rray (talk) 23:47, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
So Considering the fact that I helped define the term with help of several other thousands of people my 'original' research was not original and was not done my me only - So back in the day, We had this same discussion and it was decided then that anything that stays in contact with your body - Thus EXPANDING THE ART FORM. By limiting the language you limit the art form. RichShumaker (talk) 23:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
That's all well and good, but it's original research unless you provide references to reliable sources. You don't get to add information just based on your expert say-so. I'm going to add a welcome message to your talk page which will include links explaining some of this stuff for you. I hope you'll take the time to read it and become a valued contributor here. A really good starting place might be Wikipedia:Verifiability :) Rray (talk) 23:58, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro and History

Contact juggling is a term created by James Ernest and is the title of his book that was the first mass teaching / introduction to this art form. Michael Moschen does not 'like', appreciate, recognize this term as seen by his actions of almost boycotting the IJA festival when 'Contact Juggling' was reviewed by Juggle Magazine. He also spoke out against the book during his speech to the convention goers.(transcripts and video tapes are not publically available, the IJA records all of their events so they should still have this footage)
Exerpt from the Foreward 'Contact Juggling' by James Ernest - I am indebted to the Society for Creative Anachronism for providing me with an audience whenever I've wanted to perform, and to Michael Moschen, whose contirbutions to the film Labyrinth first inspired me to learn contact juggling.
I am including this information because contact juggling was a teaching method started by James Ernest to allow anyone that wanted to learn what he called contact juggling. He gave this lesson thousands of times teaching people all over the United States of America. He credits as mentioned in the previous paragraph Labyrinth (film) for inspiring him to learn. Since Mr. Moschen never showed James directly James created his own methodology to teach. As students learned they created new and unique styles and moves unattributable to Mr. Moschen.
Don't get me wrong without Michael Moschen I do not believe contact juggling would exist in it's modern form. He has brought together several non related disciplines under one roof. With a simple rule 'No Throws' he led himself(Mr. Moschen) on a journey. Just remember that 4 ball pyramids, isolations, body rolling have all existed and were being done before Michael Moschen was on this planet. Michael Moschen's genius lay in his ability to take existing objects and styles and fuse them into a modern form of dance and art.
Where did it exist before Moschen? - Camelbacking on the Louisana Bayou, Harlem Globetrotters Raz Ma Taz Show, Baoding Balls, Tai Chi with Ball, also with the amazing jugglers that came before Michael Moschen such as Francis Brunn and Paul Cinquevalli. Mr. Moschen and people that support his argument don't want anyone doing his routine, tricks, or use his prop, lighting or costuming. This is a broad concept and would be very unrealistic and counter productive to the art of juggling. I equate this with a painter saying you can't use my brush, my paint, or my techniques. Where would art be as a whole if we could not emulate, mutate, expand and grow. The main idea is to create new and different ways to move and dance with a ball or balls, or for that matter any prop. Copying anyones entire routine is paramount to theft as a routine can clearly be copyrighted --RichShumaker (talk) 00:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


Drew: History would benefit from history of CJ before 1980s. There is reference-able history in the book "Multiball Contact". But should at least mention, Francis Brunn, Tony Duncan (who was doing half-butterfles before Moschen) and perhaps Chinlone.

I have changed much of the intro and history of this page. The intro section gives a brief overview of the three main schools of thought in contact juggling (Isolationism, Palmspinning, and Bodyrolling), and I changed much of the first paragraph of the history section to explain terminology and influence of MM. I also removed the phrase "father of contact juggling" because, I have never heard it used, if anyone has a reference for it, I will gladly eat my edit. Finally, I changed the main picture to reflect the more graceful nature of contact juggling, this is of course until someone can find a more suitable image.

Some ideas for this article:

  1. Develop individual sections, which will hopefully become fully-fledged articles concerning:
    1. palmspinning
    2. bodyrolling
    3. isolationism
  2. Insert some images of the different props used
    1. acrylics
    2. Stage balls
    3. other non-spherical objects (clubs, rings, etc.)
  3. Develop a section devoted to the community
    1. contactjuggling.org and its history
    2. Contact juggling's relation to and with the wider juggling /manipulation community
    3. gatherings of contact jugglers

That's all I can think of for now. As more ideas come, I'll drop them here.

Mathteacher1729 03:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Competition?

What is the "ill fated competition"? gujamin 19:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Rich Shumaker Reply - Competition in an Art Form can stagnate and destroy it. Ask the European's Marco Andrew and Daniel about our 3AM discussion on this subject. Then Ask Ferret about the reprecussions of the Post Competition fall out. The competition seemed like a great idea until you take into account what really happens when people compete and don't cooperate. It can damage or ruin the art form. RichShumaker (talk) 23:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contact Juggling NOT Contact juggling

Since 1987 it has been Contact Juggling - Why is it now in 2007 being decided that the book is called Contact Juggling and the art form is Contact juggling by someone who does not do it and has not been involved. Contact Juggling goes by several other names such as Sphereplay(tm), Dynamic Object Manipulation, Orb Manipulation, and tons of other names. Rich Shumaker - RichShumaker (talk) 23:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Please don't assume that I don't do it and I'm not involved. "Contact juggling" isn't a proper noun, so it's not capitalized. The title of a book is a proper noun. Most activites are not, like "jogging", "juggling", "plate spinning", "card tricks" etc.
If you have a reference to a reliable source that says it's a proper noun, please provide it. Rray (talk) 23:53, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Why is it not contact juggling then why is it not juggling wiki page why do you capitalize that why is it Art and not art. Contact Juggling is the name for the art form, period. Your modification of that is fine. Me is no goodsky at the engliz skillz and I hack that language. What I know about CJ is that it is CJ not Cj. - WHAT DO I NEED TO GET YOU TO MAKE THIS A CAPITAL LETTER NOT A LOWER CASED ONE. I have NEVER seen anyone refer to it as Contact juggling, ever. I apologize for assuming you don't CJ I am just confused by your lack of knowledge of the 2 words together, both capitals. RichShumaker (talk) 00:10, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
So I researched - Recognize a proper noun when you see one. Nouns name people, places, and things. Every noun can further be classified as common or proper. A proper noun has two distinctive features: 1) it will name a specific [usually a one-of-a-kind] item, and 2) it will begin with a capital letter no matter where it occurs in a sentence.

Contact Juggling is a THING - Done by people in places but it is a SPECIFIC thing like a Hummel or a Rich Shumaker RichShumaker (talk) 00:10, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not a proper noun any more than the word "juggling" is a proper noun, so it isn't capitalized. The first word of articles in the Wikipedia are capitalized because they're titles, but it's not the correct style guide to capitalize the other words in the title unless they're proper nouns. So an article about art would be capitalized as "Art", but an article about teaching art would be "Art teaching". Because the word "teaching" isn't a proper noun.
It's also possible that you've seen the term incorrectly capitalized in multiple places. Anyway, I hope that explanation helps. Rray (talk) 00:11, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I have a degree in English, so I'm well-acquainted with the difference between common and proper nouns. Just because something is a "thing" doesn't make it a proper noun. A proper noun is the name of a specific place, person, or object. Contact juggling is none of these; it's an activity, like running, juggling, painting, or any number of other activities, none of which are capitalized. I hope that clears up the issue for you. :)Rray (talk) 00:14, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Contact Juggling is an Art Form and has been described as such since it's inception. As an art form the words describe a very specific type of Art and therefore the term is specific to a specific thing. RichShumaker (talk) 00:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
The phrase "art form" and the word "art" aren't capitalized either. You've admitted and now demonstrated that your command of English is questionable. I'm not sure what else to tell you other than the phrase "contact juggling" isn't a proper noun and therefore isn't capitalized. It would only be capitalized if it's used as part of a title, like when it's used in the title of Ernst's book on the subject.
Another art form is "sculpture", but that's not capitalized either. Neither is "painting", or even the more specific "oil painting". Or the word "drawing". Rray (talk) 00:22, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
decapitalize the whole page contact juggling For whatever reason all pages dealing with Contact Juggling have always been Contact Juggling until now - by making it Contact juggling you confuse a situation that has existed since Day One of the art form. Maybe we were wrong but english allows for wrongness. Their is an exception to every rule and in this case I say this is one. Find me another instance where it is Contact juggling. Not contact juggling which I agree with would be fine but Not Contact juggling - It is confusion confusing itself with a confusing twist. RichShumaker (talk) 00:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
No, we're not going to do things incorrectly because it confuses you. The article is titled correctly according to the style guidelines here. Rray (talk) 00:32, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've looked up uses of the phrase "contact juggling" in legitimate media. It is not capitalized. Here are some links to news articles on the subject, none of which capitalize the phrase: [[1]] [[2]] [[3]]. I saw some contact juggling websites which capitalized the phrase, but they all looked very much like personal websites rather than reliable sources for determining whether or not to capitalize something. Rray (talk) 03:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
You are correct I apologize for my ignorance of the english language. The usage I have seen for Contact Juggling is as a title to a page. There is no reference in Contact Juggling by James Ernest to using dual capitalization as that is just bad engliz as I seem to have quite a lot of. The only time dual capitalization is made in the book is From Page 2 of Contact Juggling by James Ernest - "Contact Juggling" is my own name for a style which fits only barely into the other categories of juggling, and which therefore deserves a name of its own. It is based, for the most part, on the manipulation of a single object.RichShumaker (talk) 17:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
No harm done. :) Rray (talk) 20:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names

Sphereplay(tm) is a trademark of Try Out Toys Entertainment - http://www.tryouttoys.com

The talk page is for discussion of the article. I'm not sure what the point of these sections on the talk page are? Rray (talk) 04:42, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
The main page has an error. So I thought the place to discuss that error is on the discussion page. Spherplay is trademarked and as such should have the trademark symbol(tm) - I would have changed it myself didn't know if it first needed to be discussed.--RichShumaker (talk) 02:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
You need to make it clear how all the stuff you just added to the talk page applies to the article, instead of just posting a lot of random facts and links. Rray (talk) 04:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Gotcha - This specific note is for clarification and correction on the main page. I can easily add TM to the Sphereplay(tm) - also notice the capitalization. One of the reasons I didn't add it is because of the confusion I had with Contact Juggling. The other notes either directly deal with contact juggling of the past or near past. I am trying to help someone fill in more information on the main page of the wikipedia.--RichShumaker (talk) 23:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First Online Lesson

Ray Bowers Site - http://www.bowers.com/contact_juggling/index.html --RichShumaker (talk) 03:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I put this note in for historical reasons. When I showed up on the internet CJ scene this was the first and only site of the time that had a CJ lesson on it. This information is on the discussion page to help someone who has gotz the engliz skilz to write a more complete wikipedia article on CJ(contact juggling).--RichShumaker (talk) 23:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My First Lesson

Rich Shumaker's first lesson from James Ernest
http://www.contactjuggling.com/lessonone.php --RichShumaker (talk) 03:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Again I don't gotz the engliz skilz unless you are talking about bad ones. So I put this note here. I was first taught CJ by James Ernest(the book the name yada yada) and this is the lesson he gave me(with some added pointers that were gained over time). I actually don't give this lesson anymore except as a historical perspective of how contact juggling got started. The roots as it were.--RichShumaker (talk) 23:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First Online Meeting Place

Yahoo Forum - Archive available at http://www.contactjuggling.org
The mention to Yahoo is made on the wiki page I just wanted to note that you can get the archive of those discussions somewhere--RichShumaker (talk) 03:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Books Videos and More about Contact Juggling

These listings are in Cronological Order - Release dates needed
Book - Contact Juggling by James Ernest 2nd Edition - 1991 - Currently out of press in the US - available in UK(company needed)
TV - PBS Great Performance Series - In Motion with Moschen - First Aired 1991
Video - The Art of Contact Juggling by David Pennington
Video - Contact Juggling by Greg Maldonado and Owen Edson - Released 2001
Video - Sphereplay(tm) Art of the Sphere by Try Out Toys Entertainment - Released 2001
Video - Contact Juggling Part 2 by Greg Maldonado and Owen Edson
Video - Playing in the Multisphere - Try Out Toys Entertainment and Bob Hughes Company - Filmed Jan. 2004 Released 2006
Video - The Visual Encyclopedia of Contact Juggling Vol. 1 to 4 by Matt Olsen
Book - Multiball Contact by Drew Batchelor - published 2007
Not a complete list but a list of what I have come across so far --RichShumaker (talk) 03:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I have been asked and it has been asked in the past - Where can I see that - How can I learn that - So here is a 'not so complete' list of available things about CJ. I would like this added and expanded on the main wikipedia page except I don't know if that is acceptable standards and my engliz skilz aren't the best.--RichShumaker (talk) 23:37, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contact Juggling Conventions

CJC 01-02-03 Location - Florida - More Details Needed
BCJC 03 - Location - Scotland
There have also been Sphereplay(tm) Days and Spherecamps --RichShumaker (talk) 03:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

More CJ history - the main wikipedia page mentions BCJC 2003 and does not mention the 3 in the US or any of the Sphereplay(tm) day's or camps.--RichShumaker (talk) 23:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Juggling VS Contact Juggling

As so many people have put it so eliquently to me(Rich Shumaker) over the years 'Contact Juggling is not Juggling'
'Contact Juggling' is a term coined by James Ernest in his book to describe a style of juggling in which the prop stay in contact with the body and is not thrown. In his book balls are the specific prop most used but it is not limited by the book to just balls. In fact a section of the book deals with extending your arms with props to roll a ball on.
Jugglers have been 'annoyed' by this art form for many years. Leading contact juggling to be the #1 MAQ(Most Annoying Questions) for Jugglers http://www.juggling.org/~conway/juggler/MAQ.html
While this is a humourous perspective this humor underlies the general sentiment in the United States towards contact jugglers for the 1990's.
More research into the archives of the rec.juggling list are needed for the 1996 discussions on contact juggling where the concept of 'unique' tricks 'unique' props and derivative works are discussed at length.
The general overall idea is that using the same props and moves in new and inventive ways is good. Copying or almost copying someones routine is NOT ALRIGHT.--RichShumaker (talk) 03:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

This is for the section dealing with the controversy of CJ with jugglers. Many jugglers in the 90's had a great disdain for contact juggling. So going to your local juggling club in the US would bring the looks and at conventions no accommodation's were made and people would often give you sneering looks or openly criticize you for just doing the art form at all.--RichShumaker (talk) 23:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
(Mention of this is in the wikipedia article)This all stems from the Michael Moschen speach at the IJA convention in the early 90's. Moschen was being honored for a lifetime of achievement as a juggler(and rightfully so) and he became upset during his speach over his displeasure of the book 'Contact Juggling' by James Ernests. This created a rift and what I call fall out. In recent Q & A sessions(2005) Moschen has not been very happy when the term contact juggling has come up.--RichShumaker (talk) 23:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)