Talk:Consumer Credit Counselling Service
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A number of changes to this page in recent months appear to have been made maliciously - judging by the content, they would appear to have been made by a commercial IVA provider unsettled by the prospect of their profits being undermined by CCCS' charitable & non-profit approach.
For example, the revision made by "Insidecccs", which consisted largely of unsubstantiated opinionating about the best basis on which to provide debt advice amid lengthy ill-disguised efforts to slander CCCS (relying mostly on out of context quotes from old media articles, or vague comments from obscure message boards).
Please could independent editors bear this in mind when viewing any edits or disputes on this page, and examine any new material posted with due consideration as to whether it is material genuinely suitable for a reference article on CCCS, or whether it is being posted with ulterior motive (i.e. to propogate a poster's personal or commercial interests)
Tirian 10:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
In addition it is important for readers to have all the facts and in order to make a factual reference then all the information needs to be presented. If a particular fact is not correct then factual information should be presented to help readers be able to make an informed opinion and not remove information that CCCS might not want people to know.
It would be hard to say that the information presented was not either relevant or factual since the history of GE and CCCS is a matter of fact or their defending credit card companies in official testimony did not happen.
Please could independent editors bear this in mind when viewing any edits or disputes on this page, and examine any new material posted with due consideration as to whether it is a cited reference and factual and is genuinely suitable for a reference article on CCCS, or whether it is being posted with ulterior motive (i.e. to further the commercial interests of CCCS or not inform consumers)
Comehither
There are many places on the web that are suitable for opinion pieces. This does not include Wikipedia. It is telling that the users and IPs that have chosen to post or re-instate the lengthy and questionable content recently added to this page have also - posted opinion based revisions to articles on debt management and credit counselling - removed refences to Credit Action and Christians Against Poverty from other wikis for no apparent reason - added promotional links to Myvesta materials on Bankruptcy and PTD wikis
Tirian 10:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
It does not seem appropriate that the first three paragraphs of this discussion were posted by someone that works in the CCCS press office and objects to information that is factual but not to their liking. "17:02, 27 March 2007 (hist) (diff) Image:CCCSlogo.gif (Logo for the Consumer Credit Counselling Service. I work for the CCCS Press office and am updating the CCCS Wikipedia entry with the logo.)"
Is Wikipedia designed to be manipulated by the CCCS press office or is it a ground for the presentation of factual information?
Comehither
There is a considerable difference between adding a CCCS logo to a CCCS wiki, and turning the entire wiki into an opinion piece.
Tirian 10:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I didn't really get the chance the read the recent additions when I added a cleanup tag to it. It was clearly in need of massive editing. Having read it further, but still not fully, it is quite clear that it's original research and non-neutral POV, which violates two of Wikipedia's fundamental policies (the other is verifiability/attribution which has never been fully met by this article). POV original research has no place on Wikipedia and should be removed. If there are any reliable neutral third-party secondary sources, please cite them. -- zzuuzz (talk) 11:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
- Is anyone in dispute of the following facts? They are a matter of public record and in Parlimentary testimony. The references and sources are clearly cited. Please verify them if you disagree.
According to testimony provide by General Electric Consumer Finance to Parliament in 2003 (from written evidence presented to the Treasury committee in a document that was prepared on 23 December 2003. Titled 'Memorandum submitted by GE Consumer Finance UK.') the link between the charity and creditors is made very clear. 'However, GECF was instrumental in the formation of the debt counselling charity Consumer Credit Counselling Service (CCCS). Malcolm Hurlston and then GE employee Vic Ware OBE established CCCS in 1992.
If a customer becomes a client of CCCS all interest, fees and collections activity is suspended and a percentage payment made to CCCS for all payments made by the customer.'
Even today, former GE Consumer Finance employees serve in executive positions of CCCS. These include Gorden Bell, Chief Executive of CCCS and Steve Nicholson, CCCS Chief Financial Officer and former Risk Director and Credit Policy Manager for GE Consumer Finance who in testimony before the Treasury Committee (from oral evidence presented by Steven Nicholson (then credit policy manager for GE Consumer Finance) to the Treasury committee on 14 July 2003.) defended the GECAF policy of charging excessive interest rates, credit card fees and penalties that have now been found to be unfair to consumers. He also defended the fact that his credit cards charged interest rates up to 32.5%.
Labour MP George Mudie said the interest rates appeared to have been rigged. 'There doesn't seem to be much competition. You all seem to be charging around 28%-30%, which rather suggests you are running a nice cosy cartel. How can you justify rates of 29% when the base rate is at 3.5%? That is usury.'
Mr. Nicholson and his fellow GE Consumer Finance peers were also rebuked as part of the testifying panel by the Committee Chairman who said 'The issue for us is lack of transparency. It is obvious to us today that there are big issues regarding the lack of prominence of interest rates on application forms. There is also the issue of retail responsibility...What we are getting today is that the lack of interest rate information depends on the customer not knowing and not having an informed choice and that would in our opinion very superficially lead us to the view that there is a cartel operating and that this is usury.' The committee also said that it amounted to 'fleecing the public and highway robbery.' Comehither 12:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
- This is neither sourced, nor written from a neutral point of view. Please read the policies linked to above. -- zzuuzz (talk) 12:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The statements above refer entirely to statements and submissions made by GECF to the Treasury Select Committee, and responses to those statements and therefore are of no real relevance to an article on CCCS.
Perhaps the submitter chose not to source the statements, as it would then be clear that CCCS made their own submission to the Treasury Select Committee, highlighting their concerns over transparency, hidden charges, inappropriate use of charging orders by creditors, and and lax enforcement of advertising regulations for credit.
CCCS Memorandum to the Treasury Select Committee
Regardless, the real issue is surely whether any submissions to the Treasury Select Committee are actually of any interest or relevance to a CCCS wiki written on the basis of the policies outlined above.
Tirian 13:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
If Tirian, who works in the CCCS press office feels that all changes I made to the INSIDECCCS post are not either verifiable, factual or independent, can't we just ask for a mediator to review the information posted and make a point by point determination rather than leaving it up to the CCCS press office to delete everything they don't like?
Let's see if we can't review these items one at a time to help me understand where the problem is since this fact below does seem to direct relevance.
What about just this one point
[According to testimony provide by General Electric Consumer Finance to Parliament in 2003 (from written evidence presented to the Treasury committee in a document that was prepared on 23 December 2003. Titled 'Memorandum submitted by GE Consumer Finance UK.') the link between the charity and creditors is made very clear. 'However, GECF was instrumental in the formation of the debt counselling charity Consumer Credit Counselling Service (CCCS). Malcolm Hurlston and then GE employee Vic Ware OBE established CCCS in 1992.
If a customer becomes a client of CCCS all interest, fees and collections activity is suspended and a percentage payment made to CCCS for all payments made by the customer.']
It seems like it is an important fact for people to understand that CCCS started with a GE Consumer Finance employee. The statement is factual and independently verifiable. The statement seems to have a neutral POV and directly pertains to CCCS.
Is the information incorrect? Is the testimony from parliment wrong? Is the quote wrong? Is the source cited wrong? What part of that statement is wrong and why does it not apply? The testimony can easily be found online by searching the parliment records. Unable to provide a direct link since it is not a static link.
The CCCS site mentions Vic Ware as a founder, so it must be relevant, but the CCCS does not disclose that he was a creditor employee at the time. See 'Vic Ware O.B.E. and Malcolm Hurlston introduced CCCS into the UK in 1993 through a pilot scheme established in Leeds to test whether the approach, which worked well in the USA, could be equally effective in the UK.' Comehither 15:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Since there was no dispute or correction of the facts above I can only assume that it is correct and will add it to the page.
Comehither 13:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to put up this addition that was previously deleted and discuss it to make sure that it is accurate, neutral and verifiable. I invite all users to verify the facts below and make any change that is not verifiable.
[Even today, former GE Consumer Finance employees serve in executive positions of CCCS. These include Gorden Bell, Chief Executive of CCCS and Steve Nicholson, CCCS Chief Financial Officer and former Risk Director and Credit Policy Manager for GE Consumer Finance who in testimony before the Treasury Committee (from oral evidence presented by Steven Nicholson (then credit policy manager for GE Consumer Finance) to the Treasury committee on 14 July 2003.) defended the GECF policy of charging high interest rates (up to 32.5%), credit card fees and penalties that have now been found to be unfair and/or unlawful to consumers.
Labour MP George Mudie said the interest rates appeared to have been rigged. 'There doesn't seem to be much competition. You all seem to be charging around 28%-30%, which rather suggests you are running a nice cosy cartel. How can you justify rates of 29% when the base rate is at 3.5%? That is usury.'
Mr. Nicholson and his fellow GE Consumer Finance peers were also addressed as part of the testifying panel by the Committee Chairman who said 'The issue for us is lack of transparency. It is obvious to us today that there are big issues regarding the lack of prominence of interest rates on application forms. There is also the issue of retail responsibility...What we are getting today is that the lack of interest rate information depends on the customer not knowing and not having an informed choice and that would in our opinion very superficially lead us to the view that there is a cartel operating and that this is usury.' The committee also said that it amounted to 'fleecing the public and highway robbery.']
Comehither 13:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The CCCS press office bloke TIRIAN keeps editing out all my additions but has not discussed the facts openly here in talk. I welcome a public review and debate on these facts so I can stop making article changes that get quickly removed.
So before I try to post information again I would like your help to determine which of the following facts can't be included in the article. The facts are not original research, they come from respected resources, are from a neutral point of view and are verifiable.
Please check the facts below and let me know through an open discussion here in talk which information does not meet the Wikipedia inclusion guidelines.
FACT 1: The CCCS annual return, available online here in the achievements and performances section does not speak at all about the educational courses or educational efforts the group offers and instead states that enrollment in their Debt Management Programme was up by 44%.
FACT 2: According to testimony provide by General Electric Consumer Finance to Parliament in 2003 (from written evidence presented to the Treasury committee in a document that was prepared on 23 December 2003. Titled 'Memorandum submitted by GC Consumer Finance UK.') the link between the charity and creditors is made very clear. 'However, GECF was instrumental in the formation of the debt counselling charity Consumer Credit Counselling Service (CCCS). Malcolm Hurlston and then GE employee Vic Ware OBE established CCCS in 1992. (unable to provide direct link to testimony but it can be found by searching past Parliment testimony)
FACT 3: Former GE Consumer Finance employees serve in executive positions of CCCS. These include Gorden Bell, Chief Executive of CCCS and Steve Nicholson, CCCS Chief Financial Officer and former Risk Director and Credit Policy Manager for GE Consumer Finance.
FACT 4: In testimony before the Parliment Treasury Committee (from oral evidence presented by Steven Nicholson (then credit policy manager for GE Consumer Finance) to the Treasury committee on 14 July 2003.) defended the GECF policy of charging excessive interest rates, credit card fees and penalties that have now been found to be unfair to consumers. He also defended the fact that his credit cards charged interest rates up to 32.5%. (unable to provide direct link to testimony but it can be found by searching past Parliment testimony)
FACT 5: In 2004, before the government Competition Commission, CCCS provided testimony defending store cards, despite of the high interest rates they charge. 'The experience of CCCS with store card issuers and their customers is positive.' They went on to specifically applaud two card issues in particular, GE Capital (GE Consumer Finance) and Marks & Spencer.
FACT 6: Testimony stated that the start-up funding for CCCS not only came from GE Consumer Finance but also Barclays, Registry Trust (another Malcolm Hurlston charity that the Chairman of CCCS runs along with the for-profit company, Malcolm Hurlston Corporate Consultancy Limited) and Leeds Permanent Building Society.
FACT 7: The relationship with Barclays and CCCS continues today. The [CCCS website] states that Doug Ross is a current board member and that 'Doug Ross was a member of the regional board of Barclays when CCCS was formed and was extremely supportive of CCCS in the early days, helping to secure continued funding. Doug joined the board of trustees in 1996.'
FACT 8: Hurlstons is a management consultancy specialising in the financial services sector. Hurlstons Consultancy chief executive is Steve Round who was also a past judge of the credit card awards and a developer of the Responsible Lending Index by Hurlstons Consulting. He is the past director of Credit Card Research Group is the chair for the lender, London Rebuilding Society. One of the sales points of the Hurstons Consulting Responsible Lending Index is to 'Better prepare financial institutions to deal with negative press publicity.'
FACT 9: The mission of the Credit Card Research Group in 2003, according to their website was 'The Credit Card Research Group informs, lobbies and promotes the credit and debit card industry to the media, Government and consumer groups. The members of the Group are the major issuers of MasterCard and Visa credit cards and Visa and Switch debit cards.'
FACT 10: CCCS states on their annual return that 'the money which runs our consumer credit counseling service comes from lenders, but is not a donation. Our activity brings them great benefit; we ask them to share that benefit with us.' They further state on their annual return that 'The majority of funding is on a recovery basis from the creditors, i.e. a fair share [payment*]. It is called a fair share [payment*] as creditors share with the charity the benefit they gain from [the charities] activity.' And they state, 'With the burden of collecting these debts removed from lenders they will be supportive to our clients as long as over indebtedness exist in our society.'
- Note: They actually call it a contribution but CCCS also states that money from lenders is not a donation so then it must effectively be a payment for commercial debt collection services.
FACT 11: 'Lenders are happy to pay the charity in this way', Mr Bell, the Chief Executive of CCCS says in a news article. 'The creditors trust us and incorporate us into their operations - and no lender can chase debts owed to them for less than the amount they pay to the CCCS.'
FACT 12: Recent UK Charities Commission research of charities that deliver public service programmes found that only 26% of charities delivering public services feel they are free to make decisions without pressure to conform to their funders’ wishes.
FACT 13: CCCS even defended a credit card with a 70% interest rate. Frances Walker who represents CCCS in the media and is apparently employed by Hurlston Consultancy group was cited as giving the opinion that a new credit card aimed at the poor, which has a top interest rate of nearly 70 per cent - the highest ever - has been cautiously welcomed by Consumer Credit Counselling Service (CCCS).
FACT 14: Frances Walker also provided information in an article about the joint venture website Moneybasics which was sponsored by GE Consumer Finance and run in conjunction with two debt charities, Credit Action and the Consumer Credit Counselling Service. The article states 'Frances Walker of the CCCS admitted that the initiative was part of a charm offensive by GECF, which came in for heavy criticism earlier this year over its store cards business.'
FACT 15: James Ketchell, another CCCS spokesperson is also employed by Hurlstons, recently gave an interview regarding the cooperation of banks and defended the banks even in light of the flagrant lack of cooperation of major banks in assisting consumers. Ketchell said 'Generally most creditors, when they realise someone is in a situation where they cannot meet their repayments, are quite accommodating'.
FACT 16: The lack of creditor cooperation with debtors is not a secret. The BBC reported on the diary of a person living through these issues. 'I wanted to test the banks' promises that if someone is in debt difficulty they should get in contact and negotiate. I did this. I have lost count how many budgets I put together, how many call centres I have called. In most instances, I either got no response, mistaken response, complete indifference or urgent demands for payment. I have come to the conclusion that once lenders find that you are in debt difficulty, rather than talking to you about how the situation can be sorted - trying to understand that each person's circumstances are different - they simply shout as loud as they can so to get as much of their money out as possible before the borrower sinks beneath the waves of bankruptcy.'
FACT 17: As the press reports 'A debt-advice charity hopes to pull the rug out from under personal insolvency specialists by undercutting their fees for Individual Voluntary Arrangements (IVAs) by at least £2,000.
The big banks, who fund the charity, have been alarmed at the surge in insolvencies. For a typical IVA, when a borrower is struggling to pay back £20,000 in credit card debts and loans, the banks usually only get 30% to 40% of the total loans back.
An agency also charges an average of £7,000 in fees, whereas the CCCS plans to initially charge £5,000, which will result in a lot more money going back to the banks.'
FACT 18: The Financial Times pubished a recent story in which it was reported 'Malcolm Hurlston, the founder, says that last year £150m was funnelled back to the banks through the charity and claims that the banks cannot wait for its IVA service to begin. He believes that - given the number of callers to the charity - the new IVA service will be handling up to 5,000 cases in its first full year of operations in 2008.'
FACT 19: According to the CCCS website they state they are extending its service 'to help people with debt problems by offering insolvency services as well as debt management plans, advice packs and general advice.' It has created a subsidiary company, CCCSVA, which will start operating in April. All profits from the company will be covenanted to the charity.
Announcing its decision the chairman of the charity, Malcolm Hurlston, said: 'Over the next few months we shall develop our own non-profit approach to insolvency which will have three main aims: • to guarantee clients best advice and continuing access to support • to create a more efficient system for lenders • to improve the working of a currently controversial market. '
FACT 20: CONSUMER CREDIT COUNSELLING SERVICE VOLUNTARY ARRANGEMENTS LIMITED is a company that was previously known as Screen Break Limited, according to Companies House. In past CCCS recruitment advertisements on the R3 website for an Insolvency Practitioner they state that the ideal candidate is going to be responsible for 'Ensuring that this venture succeeds and grows as anticipated will mean that you need to be highly motivated as it is predicted that we will become one of the top 10 providers of IVAs within 12 months.'
FACT 21: According to Companies House, CCCSVA is a for-profit limited company with the directors as Gordon Beesley, retired banker and CCCS trustee; Gordon Bell, the chief executive of CCCS; and Malcolm Hurlston, the chairman of CCCS. The shareholder of the for-profit company is the Foundation for Credit Counselling.
FACT 22: Gordon Beesley was managing director of Unity Trust Bank. He worked in the Co-operative Bank for 24 years until 1984, latterly as group treasurer, before being seconded to set up Unity Trust, a joint venture between the co-operative and trade union movements. The bank specialises in banking for the social economy sector. He is a director of not-for-profit organisations Job Ownership Ltd and the Employee Ownership Centre, a member of the council and finance committee of Ruskin College, a trustee of a trade union educational trust and a school governor.
Comehither 11:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, nor the place to construct a case. This all seems to be constructed to prove a point. What is the point of this information, and which reliable independent sources have made it notable by also publishing it? It is not so much the facts that are an issue, but their relevance. Facts 1, 4, 5, 8, 12, 15, and 22 jumped out as the most irrelevant, though there are probably others, there are probably some others can be merged or considerably compressed. -- zzuuzz (talk) 21:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Good points. I appreciate the feedback. I wasn't trying to layout a case but posted a collection of facts to discuss here so I could get some public feedback on what was relevent to include.
Thanks for the feedback about some of the individual points, it helps to give guidance that I was looking for.
ZZUUZZ do you think it would acceptable to change the current entry:
- 'The charity was started in 1993 with funding from Registry Trust Ltd, Barclaycard and GE Consumer Finance. Vic Ware OBE and Malcolm Hurlston introduced CCCS to the UK as a pilot scheme based in Leeds.'
By saying:
- 'The charity was started in 1993 with funding from Registry Trust Ltd, Barclaycard and GE Consumer Finance. Vic Ware OBE, a GE Consumer Finance employee, and Malcolm Hurlston introduced CCCS to the UK as a pilot scheme based in Leeds. Former GE Consumer Finance employees serve in executive positions of CCCS. These include Gorden Bell, Chief Executive of CCCS and Steve Nicholson, CCCS Chief Financial Officer and former Risk Director and Credit Policy Manager for GE Consumer Finance.'
If not, I would appreciate your example on how you would adjust the current entry with the relevent facts.
Comehither 09:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
