Talk:Conservative liberalism

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Conservative liberalism article.
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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on September 23, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

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[edit] A joke?

This article is obviously a joke. If William F. Buckley fathered an illegitimate child with Hilary Clinton as its mother, perhaps the offspring might adopt a political philosophy of conservative liberalism, but I doubt it.

Not necessarily. It's no more ridiculous than conservatives who believe in deficit spending. There are all kind of strange combinations of beliefs and stances out there. Fan-1967 23:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Both anonimous contributor and Fan-1967 are probably from the US. Remember that when you use terms as "conservative" and "liberal" in Europe, they have a different meaning. In some European countries the two terms are almost synonims and they both are often connected with the political right. Conservative liberalism is a typical European ideology, combining economic libertarianism and (some) social liberalism. A conservative liberal is a liberal (see for the European meaning...) who hails to the right. In the US we can consider as conservative liberals both the Libertarian Party and many moderate Republican Party's members, like those who are members of the Republican Main-Street Partnership. --Checco 09:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Switzerland

I'm no specialist of Swiss politics, but I do want to point out that I have problems with this edit of Checco. There are two (federally represented) liberal parties in Switzerland the Liberal Party of Switzerland and the Freethinking Democratic Party of Switzerland. Judging by their history, name and what I could figure from the German and the English wiki's, the Liberal Party of Switzerland is certainly the more conservative of the two liberal parties. Therefore I have reverted Checco's edit. C mon 09:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear C mon, I think you're wrong. How can a liberal party (LPS) which is strong in cities and urban French-speaking areas be more conservative than a mostly German-speaking and agrarian-based liberal party (FDP)? Anyway, 'cos I am not a specialist of Swiss politics too, I won't revert your last edit, but simply add FDP in the list of conservative-liberal parties, alongside with LPS. Indeed I'm sure of the fact that FDP is a conservative-liberal party (it is considered to be at the right of the political spectrum in Switzerland), and if you say that LPS is more conservative than FDP, this doesn't mean consequently that FDP doesn't fit the conservative-liberal category. Anyway we need badly a specialist to have a final answer to our questions. --Checco 18:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Dearest Checco. I think we have a bigger problem. This list is original research if ever I saw it. Original research which I like to do, but not wikipedia material. We need to find sources for every party (and most of the article). BTW I think the FDP is inbetween conservative and progressive liberal, leaning towards progressive. See here their four projects for Switzerland (German, also in French): which are 1) investing in science and education, 2) free market economy, 3) welfare state and 4) international openess. The program also emphasizes openess to migration, equal chances and social tolerance. For me that is a program closer to D66 (the Dutch progressive liberals), then the VVD (conservative liberals). C mon 21:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion

This article is very confusing in that it fails to make a clear distinction between "Conservative Liberalism" and the more well-known and widely mentioned ideology of Liberal conservatism. Most if not all parties mentioned here as "Conservative Liberal" are actually Liberal Conservative (the "compromise" of parties that can be described as both is a rather poor solution and offers neither a citation nor any real argument in its support) and the purportedly distinctive ideology of these parties is about the same as the one described in Liberal conservatism. Either this article was created based on the false assumption that there really is a distinction between the two (while it is another name for the same ideology varying according to the sources, which in fact I think is very likely), in which case it should go for AfD, or there is indeed a distinct concept of "Conservative Liberalism", but it is not explained in this page at all. Clarifications, please.Justice III 00:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The difference is big: Liberal Conservatives are primarily conservatives (with some liberal tendencies, especially over the economy), Conservative Liberals are primarily liberals (although being more conservative that Social Liberals over many issues). This is not something you can refuse to observe. As you can see there are many differencies between Forza Italia (a liberal-conservative party) and Dutch VVD (a conservative-liberal one) over moral issues: most Forza Italia's members, although being liberal-conservative for their free-market creed, defend traditional values. The Republican Party (United States) is liberal-conservative, but we wouldn't find anyone saying that it is also conservative-liberal. Liberal Conservatism and Conservative Liberalism are different ideologies, the first being part of Conservatism and the second being part of Liberalism. I think thw distinction is very logical, don't you? See also Parties-and-Elections, and especially Parties-and-Elections - Explanations. --Checco 11:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UMP, PP and RN

I put a wrong title to my last edit: obviously I made rollback 'cos I think that UMP, PP and RN are not conservative-liberal parties. Maybe they have some conservative-liberal members, but UMP, PP and RN are definitely conservative (not even liberal-conservative, I guess) parties. Sorry. --Checco 19:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] CNIP

I disagree with this edit of Checco's for two reasons:

  1. Formal: any one can tag for a reference, saying that something is widely known or refering to wikipedia does not solve this. Personally I'd prefer to see a reference for every party on this list.
  2. Substantial: I can find no external resources that describe the CNIP as conservative liberal. Knapp's Parties and the Party System in France characterizes the CNIP as conservative:
  • in his model of French parties on p.5
  • "(...) the conservatives now regrouped in the Centre National des Indépendants et Paysans (CNIP) (...)" (p.11)
  • "(...) the conservatives' Centre National des Indépendants et Paysans (CNIP) (...)" (p.75)
  • "(...) the old conservative Centre National des Indépendants et Paysans (...)" p.361.

I think their conservative and dispute their liberalism, unless you can provide me with references. BTW VGE is described as conservative on his wiki and his Independent Republicans as rightwing and not as liberal. C mon 17:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It was the party of Reynaud, Pinay, Giscard and so on... and they were liberals: see Giscard's stances on economy and moral issues, it is difficult to consider him as a conservative. Anyway, remember that in some European countries conservatism and liberalism are conseidered similar concepts (see Italy). If Republicans (then Republican Party / Liberal Democracy), which were a splinter group from CNIP, were liberals (they even joined the LDR group at the European Parliament) I can't understand how the party from which they come from can't be considered at least conservative-liberal or as a party with conservative-liberal wings.
Anyway look at: [1] (an interview of Gilles Richard, Professor of history at Rennes), [2] (from the Portail Politique Francaise) and [3].
CNIP is now a small conservative party, but in the Fourth Republic it was a typical example of that parties stuck between Conservative liberalism and Liberal conservatism, so that it is important to not confuse it with the current one. --Checco 18:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Quite honestly I don't see your proof: it is based on a small interview (which does not characterize the party as conservative liberal!), a reference to french wikipedia (the third reference) and to the new CNIP you yourself exclude (the second). Furthermore you give me circumstancial evidence: they joined the ELDR, as the Portugese Social-Democratic Party, but I don't consider that liberal; VGE was a liberal, while he is characterized as a conservative! While I gave you references to the standard work on French Politics. C mon 21:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Apart from the fact that in the interview Professor Richard says that CNIP was designed by its founders in order to unite "moderate liberals and radicals", that it was based on three principles, "ecomomic liberalism", "decentralization" and "European integration", and that it was formed basically by the so-called Third Republic Republicans (in Franch Republican is a synonim of "liberal"), I want you to note that in the second reference (from one of the most important sites about French politics) there is a list of liberal parties in France, in which we can read ARD, FR, PRL, CNIP, FNRI, PR, PPDF and DL. These are the parties correctly cited as liberal in Liberalism and radicalism in France. I can't understand why you are so diffident about the liberal (off course conservative-liberal) nature of CNIP, and you have no problems at all about Chilean RN or about Spanish PP, anyway you're always an interesting user to talk with. --Checco 22:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Always happy to discuss things with you. The interview provides me with no proof on it own that the CNIP is conservative liberal. It's just guess work. I wouldn't call a party committed to moderate liberalism and EU integration very conservative liberal. Furthermore an internal reference to wikipedia or to some 'important site' is not proof (the sites reference for the CNIP is the site of the CNI which you claim is not liberal).
I propose we settle this agreement by moving the CNIP to "parties with CL factions". C mon 23:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Look at the article and see if it is now ok. The problem is that CNIP is to be considered an historical party. The current CNI claims to be its continuation but it is quite different, as, for instance, the Italian Democratic Socialist Party is not the same thing as the Italian Democratic Socialist Party (historical), whatever it claims to be. --Checco 23:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Seems okay. C mon 10:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Difference?

The article doesn't really make clear, the - if any, differences between conservative liberalism and liberal conservatism. What are they? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.29.215.96 (talk) 19:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC).

I don't think so. Anyway conservative liberalism is the conservative wing of liberalism, while liberal conservatism is the liberal wing of conservatism. There is a difference. --Checco 08:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I must agree with those who say that insufficient distinction is made between the (more well accepted) definition of liberal conservative and this one of 'conservative liberal'. So, we are told that the distinction is that the 'conservative liberal' is still, fundamentally, a liberal and not a conservative, but can we be told what it is that makes them a liberal, other than a preference for the free market, which Liberal Conservatives also hold?

Another problem, I think, is that these 'conservative liberals' also must be more fully distinguished from the classical liberal. We are told that 'conservative liberals' are different from liberal conservatives because they may not necessarily adhere to traditional social values, and likewise are different from social liberals because they are more wedded to the free market, but surely it would suffice to say, then, that they are classical liberals.

Finally, the argument that they are 'conservative liberals' because they inhabit political communities in which liberalism is well established, is like saying that social liberals, if they happen to be in nations that have a well-established social liberal tradition, are likewise 'conservative liberals'. --User:Objective Hack

Your opinion is very interesting and I don't know if I'm able to answer you with a similar eloquence (I'm not an English mother-tongue). There are at least three big differencies between conervative and social liberals and these differencies are explained in the article. Maybe we could work it out in a better way, but the differencies still exist. We are not talking about theoretical things, otherwise we are simply observing that there is a difference between, say, VVD and D66 in the Netherlands, Venstre and RV in Denmark and so on. I come from Italy, where there had been basically two liberal parties: the Liberal Party (PLI) and the Republican Party (PRI). Why didn't these parties merge in a single party? The reason was that there were differences between them: the first was centre-right the second centre-left, the first was monarchist the second republican, the first was first of all a free-market party the second a "welfare and market" party... the first was conservative liberal and the second social liberal. --Checco 07:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
First, do you have any sources to prove that 'liberal conservative' is "more well accepted" than 'conservative liberal', or is it just your intuition?
Second, I think that what distinguishes liberal conservatives from conservative liberals, is the formers commitment to religion and tradition, and the latters commitment to secularism and individualism.
Third, what makes conservative liberals liberals is their commitment to free market economics, individual freedoms (gay rights, abortion, euthanasia etc.) and economic globalization.
Fourth, they differ from classical liberals in their opposition to migration, multiculturalism and their law and order-policies. Furthermore historically (or atleast in the Netherlands) conservative liberals tended to be more skeptical about universal suffrage.
Fifth, nobody claims that 'conservative liberals' are that because they inhabit political communities in which liberalism is well established".
All in all, I hope this helps to distinguish them and realize, although it is difficult to distinguish a Thomson's Gazelle from a Blackbuck it is still scientific to do so. C mon 08:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Dear C mon, can you add to the article some of the information that you explained very interestingly here? --Checco 08:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
One has to be careful not to invoke Original Research here. I can make a simple argument that Hayek too is a conservative liberal based on his theories of spontaneous order. Yet, Hayek always refused the conservative label. I have had a hard time finding good sources about the terms conservative liberalism or liberal conservatism. If the terminology is not used in the English language, one should really be thinking twice about starting to introduce it here. One is not trying to make history here at Wikipedia. Intangible2.0 13:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This terminology is clearly not notable enough to deserve a separate article. We should keep only the article on liberal conservatism, which is admittedly supported by an overwhelmingly greater amount of sources, and have this one odd page here deleted as non-notable and too fringe (if not OR).Justice III 17:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Based on the evidence, I am of the opinion that the difference as described above does exist. —Nightstallion (?) 18:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

That's not the point. There is a difference, but the fact that this difference is logical and used by a few people (and a few fringe authors) doesn't mean that it is used consistenly by notable sources. And unless it is used consistenly by notable sources and you can pinpoint exactly where they characterize such and such party as "conservative liberal" (as opposed to the well-known label "liberal-conservative", or simply "liberal") it shouldn't have an article of its own and you shouldn't label parties based on interviews and OR as "liberal conservative". So the fact is that it just doesn't meet the criterion of notability and non-OR.Justice III 18:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I can provide references for the use of this term by prominent authors in the field of Dutch politican parties (professors like Andeweg, Koole, Irwin) both in English-language and Dutch-language sources. They characterize the Dutch VVD as a conservative liberal party in Politics & Governance in the Netherlands (p.49) and in Politieke partijen in Nederland (p.290). The term is also used in Laver, Gallagher and Mair Representative government in Modern Europe. Even a quick scholar.google search gives multiple hits in established journals for the use of this characterization (in this case for the VVD). Dick Pels, a prominent Dutch publicist discussed the difference between left or social-liberalism and right or conservative liberalism in his Een Zwak voor Nederland. Ideeën voor een nieuwe politiek and in a chapter in Snels' Vrijheid als Ideaal.
I think we have to watch to dismiss translations of terms which are not used in the English language. I would for instance draw your attention to the articles "Translating "law" to other European languages" (which has survived an AFD) and Rechtsstaat. Appearantly wikipedia does allow articles which are not subjects unknown in the English language.
So I think the issues of notability, fringe and original research are addressed. But they can be addressed better I invite all contributors to work constructively and find sources for the use of this term.
BTW note that quick google, scholar.google and social science citation searches do not indicate that "conservative liberalism" is more (or less!) widely used than "liberal conservatism", they both have around 30.000 google hits, 400 scholar.google hits and 10 SSI hits. Off course we do not write an encyclopedia based on google searches but is in indication. C mon 22:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
That suggests that the term is nothing more than a quick placeholder (in a certain context). Anyways I did find some obscure references. One is to F. M. Cornford: [4], who used it in a description of academics. Intangible2.0 06:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Why, that reference is obviously intended to be nothing more than a sophomorish joke. The ones provided by C mon are narrow descriptions of the political scene of just one country, the Netherlands, and it is used specifically to distinguish VVD and D'66, nothing else. It is not even used as a term, just as an ad-hoc word to label VVD, and therefore certainly not an encyclopedic subject at all, at least not an encyclopedic subject with international significance. We are still faced with the fact that this non-English-term was coined specifically in Dutch to address a specific Dutch need to distinguish two liberal Dutch parties in the Netherlands. Sorry for the redundancy, but you get it. If this fact were made explicit in the text, that would be okay. Now, to extend that opportunistic Dutch neologism to all of the world, and arbitrarily classify world parties based on it is simply absurd.Justice III 12:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It is not a Dutch neologism, indeed also in Italy we speak of liberalismo conservatore (conservative liberalism) and liberalismo sociale (social liberalism), and the two terms are used to define European political parties by Wolfram Nordsieck (Parties and Elections in Europe) --Checco 12:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Not really. There are only two instances of the word "(Conserv.) liberal" in the list, as opposed to several dozens of "Liberal-Conservative" or simply "Liberal". And the only non-Dutch party to be characterized as "(Conserv.) liberal", the Croatian Social Liberal Party, is described in its own wikipedia article as "liberal conservative", not "conservative liberal". And Checco, in Italy Ronald Reagan, the American Neocons and much of the European EPP-ED are called "liberali conservatori"! In other words, it is pretty much the same as the English "Liberal Conservative", used indiscriminately from "conservatori liberali", specially in translations from English. I noticed you are the only user in the Italian wikipedia to have made that distinction creating the short article on the subject there, and, telllingly, the only one to have edited its content. The fact is that the distinction you made is usually applied to Forza italia, which is indeed divided, but between former Christian-Democrats as "liberal-conservatives" (neocons, if you will) and former Liberals as "liberal" or "social-liberal" (who are not social-liberal per se, but only "socially liberal"). So, you don't have to search for obscure, fringe references using ad-hoc classifications to coin a new term. It is there already, "liberal conservative", but some people are confused about its use and making distinctions that may be useful, but are not standard scholarly classifications used consistently in English, and therefore not encyclopedic.Justice III 13:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I would not call Peter Mair or Michael Gallagher (academic) fringe theorists. Note that both Mair and Gallagher are native speakers of English. They also describe the Free Democratic Party (in their comparative politics handbook Representatitve government in modern Europe p.179) Italian Liberal Party as conservative liberal (p.186). They go on to distinguish two major strands of liberal parties in Europe, the conservative liberals such as the VVD, the FDP, the VLD, Luxembourgish Democratic Party, the Italian Liberal Party, Irish Progressive Democrats and the Swiss Radicals which combine an emphasis on a minimal state and anticlericalism and the progressive liberals such as D66 and the Norwegian, Swedish, and UK liberal parties. So I think that this classification is based on external, verifiable, reliable, academics sources. C mon 15:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, how on earth do you fail the easiest test of verifiability in not being able to link the claims and broad, arbitrary classifications of parties put forward by this article to specific references from these alleged "sources"? Second, nowhere else in the English Wikipedia is their any mention of a clear-cut "conservative liberal" ideology in the description of any party claimed by this article to be "conservative liberal", except the already highlighted Dutch case and a few more edits, ALL of them from user Checco and from noone else: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Civic_Platform&diff=108429907&oldid=103477539 References keep popping up in this talk page from apologists of the distinction, yet there are no references whatsoever in the article.Justice III 15:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I would urge to read Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:No personal attacks, in this encyclopedia we judge content and not the people who edit. It does not matter who put a link to conservative liberalism somewhere, as long as it is externally verifiable that it should be their.
Furthermore wikipedia-links is not (and I stress this without feeling the urge to write all capital letters) an indicator of notability. For that we have notability guide lines, which have been met (namely external verifiable reliable academic sources). C mon 16:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

These issues matter if only one editor out of myriad contributors decides on his own to add multiple instances of an obscure classification without any external verifiable source being provided to justify these changes. Let me ask you again: if it is indeed externally verifiable, how come this is one of the most barren politics articles of wikipedia in terms of inline references, scholarly quotations and external links? In the course of this debate, you quoted references for less than one tenth of the parties that you claim to be "conservative liberal" in the article (why do you think it has been tagged by the wikipedia community?) - and even so you have deigned to mention these elusive sources only in this talk page! Justice III 17:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I have more problems with the introduction here than with the list of parties (which is OR btw, because no one source calls all these parties conservative liberal). Intangible2.0 07:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A question of alliteration or do you mean Free Market Liberals?

As someone who proclaims himself to be a Liberal Conservative I would say that there is no real difference; however Liberal Conservative rolls of the tongue in a more pleasant way than Conservative Liberal.

Liberal Conservatives are those who eschew the more authoritarian parts of Conservatism.

Surely a Conservative Liberal would be one who was more interested in continuing the traditional role of the Church as guardian of our morals? (The four estates etc.)

Thatcherites would be 'Free Market Conservatives' since they differ from traditional Conservatives in that respect. Liberals who espouse support for the free market should be 'Free Market Liberals'? Bearing in mind that both Conservatism and Liberalism pre-date Adam Smith it seems sensible that some Conservatives and some Liberals would not support the free market.

Another difference could be expressed as those liberals who believe in 'Equality of Opportunity' (the defining quality of Liberal Conservatism) as Conservative Liberals and those who believe in 'Equality of Reward' as being Socialist Liberals.

RichardColgate 05:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why are the following parties on the list

Why are the following parties on the list? Belgium: New-Flemish Alliance, Dedecker List (what is liberal in the ideology of these parties) Bulgaria: National Movement Simeon II Croatia: Croatian People's Party (seems to be more centrist or even social liberal) Czechia: Civic Democratic Alliance (Klaus party liberal?) Denmark: Liberal Party of Denmark (classical liberal?) Estonia: Estonian Reform Party (classical liberal?) Germany: Free Democratic Party (broad party) Luxembourg: Democratic Party (centrist liberal?) Netherlands: Party for Freedom (liberal?) Peru: Popular Action Poland: Real Politics Union (liberal?) Romania: National Liberal Party and Liberal Democratic Party (centrist liberal?) Serbia: G17 Plus (liberal?) and Liberals of Serbia (liberal?) Maybe it is better not to have a list. Electionworld Talk? 12:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image:EuropeanPoliticalSpectrum

I'll remove that image again because it is not appropriate in this page, as in every article about political ideologies. It is only an original reserch spam and there's no consensus for keeping it in the page. --Checco (talk) 17:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Checco, it's individuals like you that make me sick when they don't follow wikipedia guidelines of discussing to achieve consensus before blind blanket reversions. You aren't worth any more of my time, hopefully you find a corner to crawl in to somewhere and never get out. Timeshift (talk) 00:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Neither you deserve my time, if you insult me and you don't explain why you support an edit, while you ask me to argue about my opposition of it. --Checco (talk) 14:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Because I believe it's informative? Why else would I want it? It is you that kept on and kept on removing, without any justification or reason why. In the words of a child, you started it. Timeshift (talk) 15:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I removed it beacause is it was too big, too spamming and too original research. Also anthore user removed it, I guess for the same resons. I even asked to an administrator what was his opinion and he told me that he supported the removal. Stop insulting and being arrogant with me, please. --Checco (talk) 16:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Well it sure is great to see all of that here on the talk page. Timeshift (talk) 16:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Checco -- the image is completely POV and OR, I haven't seen a single source cited which supports this classification of political ideologies -- and even assuming it's correct, I'm not quite sure that it's appropriate to employ this image in every single article on one of the ideologies in the image. —Nightstallion 19:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Quote Nightstallion. Indeed the image may be an interesting classification of political ideologies and I saved it in my computer, but I really think that it is not appropriate to employ it in every single article about ideologies, as Nightstallion just wrote above. --Checco (talk) 19:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello everyone. I'm the person who placed the offending image into this article. I would really appreciate a number of things:

  • To have been invited to this discussion about why it was deleted.
  • To have people actually do real research into the image. Had any of you done this you would have discovered that it was based upon a drawing from European Politics into the Twenty-First Century by Hans Slomp[5]. This reference was given on the image page itself, so anyone saying they "haven't seen a single cited source which supports this classification of political ideologies" forgot to somehow check the actual page the image is sourced from.
  • Moreover, since you have essentially told me that this image is "completely POV" and "OR" you have done yourself a disservice by not including me in your discussion. Had you checked my userpage you will discover that I have been contributing to Wikipedia since 2004 - longer than most of you - and am considered to be a good editor by many people. I even set up a meeting of Wikipedians in my home town. FWIW, here's my picture with someone. To be honest, I feel as though you have slighted me and questioned my contributions.

Just recently, Ladies and Gentlemen, I have been reading about some of the "dark practices" that go on here at Wikipedia, including keeping contributors out of the loop in the name of keeping things "npov" in order to push a pov of their own. Now that you are armed with some facts, such as the fact that the drawing comes from a book written by a political historian, would you like to reconsider? --One Salient Oversight (talk) 06:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Everything you write is true, but I simply consider that image not useful for these articles: it is too big and spamming and, even if a political historian drew it, this does not mean that it can be an opinion, nothing more. You can put it in some articles about ideology classification but I really do not think that it fits well here. --Checco (talk) 14:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
And you find the best way to deal with it is to blanket revert, repeatedly, without any discussion. Well GOOD FOR YOU Checco! Timeshift (talk) 15:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
At the beginning I thought it was simply a bizzarre edit to be reverted quickly, but as so many respected users hold a different opinion, we are discussing about it since the day after. Why do you continue to stick with the past instead of discussing? --Checco (talk) 15:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
You reverted more than a couple of times... my beef was more in the way it was removed more than the reasons for removing it. Timeshift (talk) 15:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough, a discussion should certainly have been started after the removal, I agree with you there. —Nightstallion 15:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough and sorry, but stop speaking about something we already fixed ten days ago. --Checco (talk) 16:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
You shouldn't insist that people stop talking about things. Wikipedians can mention and discuss anything they want. Just because it reflects badly upon yourself, does not mean we shouldn't talk about it. But finally, 10 days later, you are prepared to acknowledge the problem was the way you went about it. So now perhaps I can stop talking about it. Timeshift (talk) 21:43, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
You are free to say what you want. No doubt about it. Since the beginning I understood that I could have been less rough, but your comments have always been so rough that I alaways answered with your tone. I do not think that the events reflect badly on myself or on Nightstallion who too dismissed those edits. I am sorry I you felt offended by my actions and words, but, you know, there are so many vandalisms in Wikipedia that you can understand why sometimes I rollback an edit without opening a discussion about it. Then there was the discussion and, as you can see, I have no problems with it: I like to discuss on everything. --Checco (talk) 18:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)