Talk:Confirmation

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Contents 1 More info on the Protestant tradition? 2 "Lutheran View" confusing 3 How to revoke confirmation? 4 chrismation upon conversion is necessary 5 Delegation 6 History of this sacrament 7 Roman Catholic views 8 Capitalization 9 Celebrations 10 Requested move 10.1 Survey

[edit] More info on the Protestant tradition?

So far, this article has very little information on the Protestant tradition, which I find surprising. It's quite an important thing in Nordic countries at least, involving a period of intense Bible study (often at at least these points addressed in the article, but I'm not adding any myself since I'm just a generic religions geek and a Finn, so I'm only speaking from experience rather than citing authoritative texts:).--Snowgrouse 21:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Lutheran View" confusing

While describing the Lutheran point of view, why confuse people with the German term for the non-Lutheran point of view (Firmung)?

As a native German speaker, I don't see that the fact that we happen to have a different term for the Roman Catholic ceremony has anything to do with the Lutheran point of view about confirmation. If it is really considered necessary to give the German word "Firmung" at some point (though I do not really see the necessity of this at all - you might as well give the Italian or French or Chinese term), in my opinion it belongs in the context of the Roman Catholic view.

If the whole article is linked to the German Wikipedia article on "Firmung", well, that is a different problem which should not be solved within the article, but by setting the correct links. This link, as it is, would turn the English term "Confirmation" into a solely Roman Catholic issue for anyone who relies on it.

Would somebody who knows how to do it maybe be so kind as to fix this? Anna (talk) 09:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How to revoke confirmation?

Does anyone know the process for revoking confirmation? -Christiaan 23:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

For the Catholic Church, no sacrament can be revoked - you cannot revoke a fact - and confirmation can no more be repeated than baptism - see sacramental character. Lima 04:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I see, so the only step one could take would be a personal renunciation I guess. Do you know of any formal process for renouncing Christianity in general? Self-excommunication maybe? -Christiaan 12:31, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The life outside the womb one is born to can be lost or just wasted, but one's birth cannot be revoked. The grace of the sacrament can be lost or just wasted, but the sacrament itself cannot be revoked. Lima 13:13, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The more I look into it the more it seems the only semi-formal road one can take is to apostate. The upside of this (for one who wants to renounce their Christianity) is that it results in automatic excommunication. -Christiaan 13:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The Church never allows a sacrament to be revoked. One took place, ior it didn't. If it is a question of validity of the sacrament, that is a seperate discussion. If the question is church membership, once catholic always catholic. However, defection by formal act renders once outside the responibility to marriage laws with in the Church. On the US Catholic bishops website (www.usccb.org) you can read the explanatory note from the Holy See about canon 1086.1 (also www.clsa.org). DaveTroy 20:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] chrismation upon conversion is necessary

On the other hand, the Orthodox insist that chrismation upon conversion is necessary.

Do they do that even when the convert comes from an Eastern-rite Catholic church or an Oriental Orthodox church, where the same kind of chrismation rite immediately after baptism that is done in Eastern Orthodox churches? Michael Hardy 01:00, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

There is some confusion here, I think. What exactly is being referred to by "Eastern-rite Catholic Churches"? The Catholic Church hierarchy is not consistently documented here on Wikipedia. Psb777 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Eastern Rite Catholic Churches are churches that accept the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. They have the same beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church but use the same liturgy and practices of their own church, usually corresponding to an Eastern Orthodox Church. The requirements for chrismation (and for rebaptism) in Eastern Orthdox churches varies by jurisdiction (the Greek Orthodox may require it while the Russian Orthodox might not). Jason 22:58, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Delegation

I'm pretty sure in the Roman church the Bishop can delegate permission to confer the sacrament of Confirmation to other priests in his diocese. Where I live that in fact had been done in the past, an oridnary priest was authorized to confirm individuals.

Correct, the bishop can always delegate the faculty for confirmation. However, any priest can confirm in emergency and when a priest receives someone into the Church, he can confirm at the time of reception the person being received. Both of these later are by the law itself. canon 882 and 883§3. DaveTroy 20:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History of this sacrament

There is no mention to the history of this sacrament. I am very interested in knowing the history and development of the christian sacraments. It is quite difficult. Anyone has any ready knoledge? Please? JesseG 01:01, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Jesster79, I would suggest you read Edward Foley's From age to Age which is about the history or Eucharistic theology and celebration. Also, if you go to a large book store site, you can probably type the name of the sacrament and search paramaters. DaveTroy

Also ask a priest or deacon.ray riordan

[edit] Roman Catholic views

The Roman Catholic Views section of this article appears to be written in the first person and is not neutral. Could someone please fix this? [anonymous unsigned comment]

The section is on "Roman Catholic views" and presents that Church's teaching on confirmation. The views of other Churches are presented in other sections. Lima 06:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization

I notice that, throughout this article, SomeHuman has altered the names of the sacraments (Confirmation/confirmation, Baptism/baptism, Eucharist/eucharist) to give them lower-case initials. I have no personal preference in the matter, though I think that, in this article, capitalization shows up the specificity of the religious rite that the article is about, as indicated in its title. I have also long noticed that neither Microsoft Word nor WordPerfect accept "eucharist" (lower-case "e") as correct English spelling. Be all that as it may, my query is whether SomeHuman's unilateral action is in conformity with Wikipedia norms. Lima 07:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Before choosing whether to capitalize or not, I searched and could definitely not find a Wikipedia norm that indicates that all concepts considered sacred should be capitalized. In Wikipedia articles, though often normal characters are used, capitalization can be seen in some articles. Elsewhere, I too saw 'Eucharist' more often than 'eucharist', though I can not see a reason for this particular sacrament to be capitalized while 'communion' is not. Unlike other sacraments, this term is rarely used by non-Catholics and I assume that's why it is rarely found as 'eucharist'. What is certainly not acceptable for Wikipedia standards, is using normal characters for the same words used in relation to other religions, but capital letters in relation to Catholicism. That is how it was mostly in the article and that is what I changed; 'Eucharist' however was, once more, only used with respect to Catholicism, it seems logical to use the same spelling style as for other sacraments. When a term refers to a particular god, as another name, it is capitalized. 'Eucharist' is a rite of which Catholics believe the bread and/or wine is somehow transformed to Christ, in other words the term is not a name for Christ but a word for the transformation to Christ, hence not capitalized by Wikipedia standards. — SomeHuman 1 Sep 2006 22:13 (UTC)

I am staying out of the SomeHuman versus Microsoft Word and WordPerfect quarrel. Lima 04:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Celebrations

The article skip how, if at all, the event is followed by secular celebration. At least with the danish tradition follows a celebration that easily rivals a Bar Mitzvah, with the same critizism; that for many young people the party and gifts become the main reason to be confirmated. Carewolf 15:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

This article has been renamed from Confirmation (Christian sacrament) to Confirmation as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 15:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)