Talk:Comparison of wiki farms

[edit] My experience at the free wikifarms

I went to each one of them trying to find a place to my Wikibook, which I'm not positive it belongs at Wikibooks. After that "pilgrimage" I added some coments to your list on some of the farms I visited. Nothing iffy, just stuff I thought other users would like to know, such as the german pages of Gratis and the difference in markup languages. For more details on what I found you can see my blog, where I blogged about my experiences

He, he, he... The deletion of this page is such a textbook example of why a page listing Wiki farms that HAS to exist! Someone deleted it because Wikipedia is not a link farm... Fine, but where does the guy who spent hours doing the table and the page is going to put his content ? At another wiki where his content is more appropriate, right ? And where can he find that wiki ?

It is precisely the reason I made my comments about markup language. People who spend hours making a page that gets voted for deletion would like to know that all their work won't be in vain, that they can reuse it. But after my trip to all the free wiki farms I found out that reusing rejected (or iffy) wiki content ain't that straight forward!

As a mater of fact, the only place where I could get something decently ressembling my original page, without having to fiddle with it a lot was editthis.info which I almost didn't try because of it's line being so empty at the table here. Seedwiki has the words "wiki mode" on it's list of features which looked like what I wanted: compatibility with Wikipedia and Wikibooks markup. Whatever seedwiki's "wiki mode" is, I could not find easily after an hour of fiddling, so I gave up.

Anyhow, the bottom line is that all the wiki farms listed here are pretty good, but each one serves better a particular kind of user, which is what my little note about markups tried to convey... Renmiri 02:21, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Renmiri

[edit] NPOV

This article doesnt have a NPOV.. user ratings like "fast setup" should not be here, it's pov. Furthermore things like "user friendly" are again POV. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 09:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Please fix these. --logixoul 13:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Just in case these are actual users complementing the products, should another article be made? Or should they post here? ^Talk User:Fissionfox 07:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please keep this page

Please keep this page! I really like to have this overview of wikifarms hosted by wikipedia. For me, wikipedia is *the* source of independent, peer-reviewed information. :-) So when I looked for a free wikifarm to host my personal wiki (personal, as noone except me will ever read it), wikipedia was the obvious start point.

WRT "fast setup": yes, I really appreciate if someone looks at couple of wikis and tries to use them and reports if it is easy to use or not. To start a wiki on pbwiki was a snap - about a minute total. :-) But maybe I'll look at some other options too - their wiki markup is intuitive, but different. :-(

Wikipedian editors, don't be ridiculous, if a page is often being suggested for deletion, not many people will work on improving it. So it will not get improved - self-fulfilling prophecy. Free advice: Remove "deletion' from top page, and add on talk that it is *not* going to be deleted, ever. You want people to try wiki for their own non-wikipedia purposes, so wiki will become the "true way" to share info and publish on web. They will come back to edit wikipedia pages when they get the bug.

Suggestion: Maybe more helpful info (deep links) could be added: features, a page comparing free/paid options, summary of modes of sharing edits (if any), etc. Maybe one person can try them all and rate the features (I know, 'no original research' rule is against it), and/or look for reviews etc. But even as it is now, the page is quite useful. Thank you for creating it and resisting temptation of deleting it! :-)

Yeah, this is my longest post so far. I really need to register user account. :-) Next time I will. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.0.96.115 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Don't Delete, just help make it -not- POV.

A listing of the wiki farms' features is needed. Among other things, yes, it gives people an outlet to seek to place wiki stuff that -doesn't- belong on Wikipedia itself. If it's POV, wikipediaze it, don't delete it.

For example, even the word in the title "Comparison" is an invitation towards POV thinking, but that doesn't mean that the underlying spirit of the article isn't useful and warranted, it just means that it needs changing.

Maybe there's another, less POV article that it could be merged with to create a greater whole.

Maybe the categories and wording should be changed to encourage enclusion of factual features of the wiki farms instead of comparisons or ratings.

Deletion is base surrender, change for the better just happens to require more work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.225.195 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Cleanup

This article is full of spam and non-notable entries, which is doubtless one of the reasons it keeps getting nominated for deletion. I propose removing all non-notable entries (as determined by whether they have an article or not) and also all the redundant external links alongside the wikilinks. Objections? CiaranG 20:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the red links themselves should be removed, but not the entries. Entries for any wikis that seem to be dead or inaccessible should go, otherwise I don't see a problem with keeping them – Qxz 11:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The reason for the suggestion is the same as discussed the most recent AfD, i.e. criteria for inclusion. Without one, the list becomes a spam magnet. The most sensible suggestion I have seen, and one that is implemented successfully on many other similar pages, is notability per WP:N - this criterion for list inclusion is also referenced in the AfD discussion. What's your alternative suggestion for whether or not an entry should be included? CiaranG 11:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

If the site works, is actively used, and does actually provide wiki hosting services of some kind. Surely that would rule out any attempts to use the page for pure spamming; if links to non-wiki-farm sites are inserted, they can be removed – Qxz 11:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't fit in with my understanding of WP:NOT#DIRECTORY, nor the views expressed in the two previous AfD discussions, but I'll try and get some other opinions. I can see this article being deleted sooner or later if it's not cleaned up. Cheers, CiaranG 11:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... fair enough. We can always go back to an old version, after all – Qxz 11:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Objection

Even the "non-notable" entries that do not have there own article deserve to be here. This article is perfect for someone who is looking for information on "wiki farms." I am writing a research paper on wikis, and this page is nearly invaluable. If the table were forced to be moved to another site, it would not get nearly the scrutiny that it gets on wikipedia and would become worthless as a source for my paper. It just factually lists all the available wiki farms. What could be wrong with that. Morscs5 01:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC) 01:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, the information was removed due to policy concerns; see notability guidelines and Wikipedia is not a directory. Feel free to make use of older versions in the page history, or alternatively use one of the links at the bottom of the page pointing to other lists of wiki farms that aren't subject to our encyclopedic policies. I should point out that using Wikipedia — or any encyclopedia — as a source for something is generally a bad idea; remember anyone can edit articles and "our" version is no more authoritative than anyone else's – Qxz 12:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The topic of wiki farms is notable. See the next 2 talk sections for more info.

The Wikipedia is not a directory page states:

"Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic, for example Nixon's Enemies List. Wikipedia also includes reference tables and tabular information for quick reference."

The items in the list contribute to a notable topic. It is a reference table. Just like Comparison of raster graphics editors.

The Wikipedia is not a directory page also states:

"Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics such as quotations, aphorisms, or persons (real or fictional). If you want to enter lists of quotations, put them into our sister project Wikiquote."

The list of wiki farms is not a loosely associated list. It is a very specific list.

Finally, this has been discussed already in 2 AFDs, and there was no decision by admins to delete this page. The most relevant concern I get from those discussions is that there should be no advertising hyperbole, and no reviews of the wiki farms. Features should be mentioned without approving or disapproving comment. --Timeshifter 07:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia is the only place where this list could be maintained and kept NPOV.

I find it incredible that people even consider deleting this page. Wikipedia is famous because of wiki software. And people like me who are trying to find places to put up our own websites using wiki software want to compare wiki sites.

This is the epitome of what an encyclopedia should be used for. We want NPOV tables of wiki farms listing their features. I looked all over for such a list and this is the only up-to-date NPOV one I could find.

Other wiki farms would not allow this comparison on their sites, because it lists their competition.

It takes lots of editing to keep such a list up-to-date. That requires that this list be on a wiki site such as wikipedia. And Wikipedia is the only wholeheartedly NPOV wiki site. So this is almost the only place this NPOV list could exist on a continual basis.

There have been 2 AFD attempts and both have lost, so stop blanking large parts of this page against the ruling of those AFDs. --Timeshifter 05:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison of raster graphics editors

See this page: Comparison of raster graphics editors

The topic is notable. The list is very detailed. There is no advertising hyperbole. This is the same kind of encyclopedic list that may only be found on Wikipedia in such an unbiased, detailed, up-to-date WP:NPOV way. --Timeshifter 06:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should we be listing editthis.info?

I'm not convinced that editthis.info hasn't shut up shop for good. It's certainly not available today. Its availability has been very poor in 2007, and it hasn't attracted much advertising of significance. Though it offered a lot of function when it was up, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone now (if it does return), because it has let down so many users. Its creator started it on a laptop and, though it might have been promoted to a server in a garage, it's beginning to feel like someone has stolen the server. Thegn 15:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I see the listing for editthis.info has now been completely removed, without any discussion. Does anyone have any definite information to show that editthis.info has been terminated?Thegn 17:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I did not remove it. But if it is now a questionable site that only stays up on an irregular basis, I think it makes more sense just to remove it from the list. We should not be reviewing sites in the article. That is what causes some editors and admins to want to delete the article. Because then it seems like reviews could be used to advertise against the competition. There are reviews at some of the external links. I just noted that in the first paragraph of the article.

The image editor comparison table (Comparison of raster graphics editors) at wikipedia does not review the programs. We should not do reviews of wiki farms at wikipedia either. If we do, then we become a spam magnet for negative advertising via reviews. --Timeshifter 21:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The site is back up and running after being dormant for a few days. It seems someone beach me to the ounch in restoring it. BuickCenturyDriver (Honk, odometer) 22:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Message from Editthis.info Admin

Sorry for the site outage on Monday, it was my fault. Please note, there has only been three downtimes over the past 6 months on the server, and none that lasted over 48 hours. All three times were due to network issues, and the server was running continuously through them despite being unreachable. I am working hard on improving the service and am focusing on maintaining a continuous uptime. It has been a long time since the era of the "laptop" and anyone that uses the site will notice its fast load times (despite the fact that it recieves 40,000 hits per day). Thanks, User:RobKohr

[edit] Editthis.info down again (May 27th, 2007)

Editthis.info face yet another weekend when, without warning, the site is down. In 2007, this site has established a reputation for among the worst availability offered by any Website, free or otherwise. The owners of this site don't seem to appreciate that, because most of its users are hobbyists, many of them plan to do their bulk updates and clean-ups over the weekend. Thegn 05:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Editthis.info down yet again (June 11th, 2007)

New error this time. The server is asking for a user name and password. Thegn 21:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Central Desktop

http://www.centraldesktop.com/ I took a brief look at the front page of Central Desktop's website, and it appeared that it only offered Trial and Paid subscriptions, but this article said that it offered Free and Paid subscriptions. Could someone please assist me in this matter? ^TalkFissionfox 06:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to correct the info in the chart. --Timeshifter 14:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion reviews. See Comparison of raster graphics editors.

Those considering this page for deletion should look at Comparison of raster graphics editors and the previous discussion here. All the problems mentioned in the previous deletion reviews have been solved. Advertising hype has been removed. There are no prices listed. --Timeshifter 22:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Some say that Wikipedia-type hosting is not notable. Wikia.com, founded by Jimbo Wales, is not notable? Wikipedia is consistently one of the top sites (number of hits). The software it uses, and spinoffs, are creating all kinds of collaborative content on the web. That is not notable? It is easily as notable as graphics and image editors. Collaborative text/HTML editors such as wikipedia, wikia, and wiki hosts are just as notable as regular text editors, etc.. See

Comparison of text editors

Comparison of layout engines (HTML)

Comparison of layout engines (graphics)

Comparison of layout engines (XML)

Comparison of web browsers

Collaborative editor# List of current editors

Comparison of raster graphics editors

Comparison of wiki software

List of wikis

List of collaborative software

Comparison of file sharing applications

I put the previously-mentioned comparison page in the list also, for convenience. --Timeshifter 22:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categories with many lists and comparison tables.

Category:Software comparisons

Category:Technology-related lists --Timeshifter 05:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion reviews. See Comparison of one-click hosters

Wiki hosts are just as notable as one-click hosters. See:

• Comparison of one-click hosters

The subject of a wikipedia list must be notable. But everything listed on the list does not have to be a household word. There is a guideline somewhere that discusses this. It talks of "Nixon's Enemies List." I doubt most people have heard of everyone on that list. But the name "Nixon's Enemies List" itself is notable. Just like web hosts and wiki hosts are notable. --Timeshifter 23:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The WP:NOT#DIRECTORY section states:

"Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic, for example Nixon's Enemies List. Wikipedia also includes reference tables and tabular information for quick reference. Merged groups of small articles based on a core topic are certainly permitted; see List of locations in Spira for an example." --Timeshifter 02:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More on notability and lists. Reference/citation links are OK.

Reference links are allowed. Non-notable stub links are not allowed. So the list should have reference links back to all the hosts listed, including the non-notable hosts. But wikipedia guidelines do not allow the creation of red-linked empty stubs for all the non-notable web hosts listed.

Many people have been confused by Wikipedia:External links. Recent discussion has clarified that the guideline does not apply to reference/citation links. It has been clarified in the introduction of that guideline article. --Timeshifter 23:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tables listing features

Another thing I thought of as to why this table is unique on the web. Many people want a single NPOV table listing wiki farms and their features. I looked all over for such a list and this is the only up-to-date NPOV one I could find on one page on the web. Other wiki farms would not allow this comparison on their sites, because it lists their competition. As I said it takes lots of editing to keep such a list up-to-date, and especially to keep it NPOV. That requires that this list be on a wiki site such as wikipedia. And Wikipedia is the only wholeheartedly NPOV wiki site with lots of editors. So this is almost the only place this NPOV list could exist on a continual basis. So I ask people to consider that this is a notable topic, and that WP:NOT#DIRECTORY can, and has, been interpreted to allow many lists and tables on wikipedia, if the subject of the list or table is notable. Some of the lists or tables are content forks from the main articles covering the topic. I ask people to use common sense when interpreting wikipedia guidelines. I think the main point of the wikipedia guideline is to avoid unnecessarily duplicating database-type lists and tables on the web such as yellow pages, tv and radio schedules, hotel guides, campground guides, and other very detailed, commercially-oriented, stuff.

A big problem with the secondary wikipedia-linked sites (such as Wikibooks Wikispecies Wikipedia Commons Wikiquote Wiktionary Wikisource Wikinews Wikiversity) is that they all require separate logins. Lists and tables require a lot of people contributing to them. So wikipedia is the natural location for lists and tables. Until wikipedia and its offshoots create a common login, then the offshoots will always be much less popular for editors to jump in and edit. Too many watchlists to bookmark and keep track of. So for now, let us keep wikipedia for the lists and tables, and use the other sites for more specialist info such as the how-to guides, etc.. I can contribute to some of those sites. But there is no way I could maintain a list or table by myself. Wikibooks will not have enough interested editors to maintain lists and tables. Many wikipedia editors drop in on wikipedia list and table pages, though. So that is why we should keep them maintained on wikipedia for now. --Timeshifter 02:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thousands of lists and comparison tables at wikipedia

The decision of the last deletion review on April 10, 2007 was to keep this comparison table of wiki farms.

To further make the case that deletion reviews are no longer necessary for this comparison table:

This site search, and this one, pull up thousands of examples of lists and comparison tables at wikipedia.

The key is that a wikipedia list not be a list of loosely associated items. And the topic of the list must be notable. The lists and comparison tables pulled up by the above search links are about specific topics. They are not lists of loosely associated items. See the wikipedia policy: WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. --Timeshifter 04:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WTF?!

http://EditThis.info is down! And everything on the server, too! Constantsun's blog is down too, it appears that everything related to the website just keeled over and died. It's been replaced with one of those dodgy "searh sites". - 2-16 11:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

It is back at this moment. --Timeshifter 16:53, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

And now it requires a username and password. This is stupid. Now, I lost 2 wikis today. I was planning on moving my two wikis to Wikia.--168.13.191.66 16:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Editthis.info is back online. Rob Kohr must be fixing his server. His wireless router is a Linksys. I'm thinking about moving my two wikis to Wikia, because Editthis.info doesn't have protect options whether I can semi-protect or full-protect.--Edtropolis 13:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Editthis.info is no longer available as of today.--209.215.50.59 (talk) 20:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Rob Kohr is now considering rewritting EditThis. I'm assuming the old EditThis is now dead.--72.146.199.197 (talk) 18:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blanked the page.. :|

Sorry guys, accidentally hit the wrong button :|, I was just about to undo that change when someone else did and marked it as vandalism.. Just wanted to say sorry.. --65.182.70.73 17:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

That was me -- you are forgiven ;) Gscshoyru 17:28, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I noticed, when I went to click the undo button it was missing lol, and thank you --65.182.70.73 17:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Elwiki's Death

Why has nobody posted this?

Is it dead, dead? The server has been playing up recently, with several days on and then several days off. Are you saying it isnt coming back at all? Or it is just another temporary glitch?

cloest I can tell, the first wiki owner on Elwiki claims he isn't the site manager. (His blog even goes so far as to mention lawyers specifically.)

A WHOIS shows a 'proxy inc.' registered the name for a client, and a WHOIS on the IP does the same. I can bring up a simple page for a BACKUP of Elwiki's entire database, but I'm not sure what that will so. I have limited success with Google cache or webarchive.

I really think it's dead. I have not been able to access it at all for the last month.

Hey guys. Please sign your posts. Just click the signature button on the edit window toolbar. I guess it is time to remove Elwiki from the list. --Timeshifter 12:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

After almost a month down, it seems to be up again --130.217.76.77 02:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Building Wiki Farms

Does anyone here have any knowledge on building a Wiki Farm? For instance, using mediaWiki or TWiki to actually build a farm? My site could make very good use of one, but I'm not able to find anything on what's involved in that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ishmayl (talk • contribs) 17:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About the Wikia entry

"No means to close an inactive wiki, even if the community has moved elsewhere."

Uhhh... No. You just need to use the "Contact Us" in the main Wikia site to inform an admin about wiki deletion. Someone edit that out.
- 58.69.4.187 06:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to edit anything on wikipedia or wikia. Just click the edit links.--Timeshifter 07:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The founders of the http://eve.wikia.com/ site took there wiki to http://eve-wiki.net (see: http://eve.wikia.com/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=2989&oldid=2987) but after repeatedly asking to have the wiki deleted Wikia has still refused to do so. (see: http://eve.wikia.com/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=4785&oldid=2989) The owners of Wikia have hijacked the page and become the Sysops for it claiming private servers can not be neutral. Alatari 15:29, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

But just look at the recent changes there and there's indeed many people who decided to stay. 06:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.81.167.56 (talk)

[edit] 2 other farms

Found two other site not listed in this article: http://enterwiki.net/ and http://strategywiki.net/ They are game focused so do they belong in this page or is there a better location? Alatari 15:29, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I looked at them just a little bit, and they don't look like open wiki farms where people can start wikis on any topic. --Timeshifter 05:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

They seem to be focused on gaming topics only. I was asking what article on Wikipedia they would belong to. Alatari 10:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. I am not sure there would be a wikipedia article they could be used as a reference for. --Timeshifter 11:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Instant-wiki

Alllow something with ads but no picture uploads. for example, WIKI Maestro GK tramrunner 21:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Linkfarm

I disagree with Timeshifter's personal interpretation of WP:EL, WP:SPAM, WP:NOT#LINK, WP:LIST, WP:V, and WP:NPOV. External links to homepages should be at best treated as self-published sources that are promotional in nature, and as such should be removed. --Ronz 17:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Your independent interpretations of WP:LIST have been refuted many times. Sorry. --Timeshifter 19:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

This page was very useful for me today. It was a good source of information, not links. --Yablochko (talk) 12:19, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion criteria?

This list has no stated inclusion criteria per WP:LIST that I can find. Wiki farms currently in the list that don't have articles of their own should probably be removed as unimportant. --Ronz 17:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

This list meets the inclusion criteria of WP:LIST#Lead section or paragraph.

From that section is this:

• If the meaning of the list's title seems obvious, e.g. List of dog breeds, the article may open with a simple statement using wikilinks, e.g. "This is a list of dog breeds." (The inclusion criteria is that an item must be the name of a dog breed in order to be added to the list).

Please stop wikistalking me, Ronz. --Timeshifter 19:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

--Timeshifter 19:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What do the colors stand for?

Why are some boxes green and some purple? Please explain! Mikael Häggström (talk) 14:57, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed the box background colors. They were inconsistently used and applied. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zoho's Wiki

Someone should add Zoho's Wiki things, because it's good and I would, but I don't wanna mess up the page. URL: Wiki.Zoho —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkanemancer (talk • contribs) 00:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)