Talk:Comparison of CECB units

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[edit] Other Features

What features should be listed in this section, I would like to get everyone's opinions? For instance, is external power supply worthy to be listed? Does anyone really care if it has an external power supply or not? I feel that universal remote and favorite show reminder are valid features to be listed.134.121.247.59 (talk) 00:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I've read reviews that praise a one button zoom/unzoom feature, i.e. switching between 16:9 to 4:3 ratios without entering a menu. This would be a nice feature to know about before purchasing. Jphn37 (talk) 05:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Support for CEA-909-A (smart antenna controlled over coax); could be a variation within the smart antenna column. I doubt any have it yet. The whole list is still looking very dismal. Also, do any of these have more than one antenna input? That would be a big plus for me. Keith.blackwell (talk) 05:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
  • can someone add a column for Energy Star certification? 216.130.131.66 (talk) 16:10, 2 May 2008 (UTC)Patrick
I don't know exactly what the Energy Star rating is, but to be a "CE(coupon eligible)CB" the box has to go into an energy-save mode (2 Watt max) as per the government specs. The specs are at http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/DTVmanufacturers.pdf Jd4x4 (talk) 02:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
External PS seems relevant, as does a multifunction universal remote. I've given up on reminders because they haven't worked right for me on any service since I dumped cable, but it could be useful. The question I think is at what point do we branch off that other features entry for Box X to it's own page? --97.114.21.39 (talk) 00:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. Knowing whether a box has an external PSU or not is very useful because an external power supply typically means a cooler running, much smaller box. And these types of boxes can easily be powered up in a car or RV --Tobey (talk) 04:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm really interested in audio output. It seems that it's permissible for a converter box to have digital audio output, and if that is indeed the case, I'm considering it to be a requirement for any converter I buy. --XeroxKleenex (talk) 03:17, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Last we understood digital outputs of any kind were forbidden on these boxes. Do you have some kind of verification that digital out is allowed now? --97.114.21.39 (talk) 05:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Coaxial Digital Audio is not specifically mentioned in the technical specifications. But it is not a specifically prohibited feature either. The Channel Master box has it. One of the Magnavox boxes was advertised as having it but it doesn't. SurfaceUnits (talk) 01:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
False. Digital audio output is a prohibited and disqualifying feature. See question 16 at http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/manufacturerFAQ.html The Channel Master box originally specified the output, but on production units the jack is electrically disconnected and labeled "Not used". Refer to owner reports starting at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13396219#post13396219 -- 70.131.127.193 (talk) 21:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I have a Mitsubishi VCR that has an IR transmitter built in, to automatically control a cable-converter box for timed recordings (like a universal remote it allows you to select what brand of cable-box you are using with it). It would be interesting to know if any of these can be controlled by the same channel-change signals needed for cable-boxes. Then I wouldn't need an event timer built in to coordinate timed recordings. Otherwise my choices would be severely limited for timed recordings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.61.220.86 (talk) 14:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

That is one of the requirements of these boxes. Universal remotes can be programmed using already existing codesets. --97.114.21.39 (talk) 17:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I purchased a Toshiba 25" television about 5 years ago and paid a premium price of around $150 to get a dual (analog) tuner. With 2 built in tuners, my remote allows me to to select "Picture in a Picture" (PIP) and see two channels at one time. I use a roof mounted antennae and it works beautiful. Can be watching 2 football games and swap pictures when one goes to commercial break. The foregoing is just background information, but my question is which converters (if any) will allow me to continue having this feature? Am I the only one who purchased a PIP TV and still is not connected to cable?Gene in NE (talk) 23:08, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The answer is "none of them". These are not dual tuner units, you would need two CECBs hooked up to just that TV to get PIP like that. Sorry. --97.114.2.125 (talk) 16:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I wish I knew a little more about how this PIP works. You mention using two CECBs, would you use two splitters. Take the coax cable from the antennae plug to the splitter, then split to the two CECBs and then another splitter to connect back to the TV? Since I do not yet have my CECB, I was expecting that I would set my TV to a channel like 3 or 4, then use the remote on the CECB to feed my TV. With two CECBs, how would you set the TV?Gene in NE (talk) 03:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Depends somewhat on what your TV is capable of, but the basic idea would be to send your RF signal through a splitter to two CECBs. Set one to channel 3 and the other to channel 4, then send their RF outputs through a signal combiner (I wouldn't use a splitter as a combiner in this case - consumer-grade RF modulators are too likely to interfere with each other - instead, Google "channel 3 signal combiner" to find a true combiner); then feed the combiner's output to your TV's RF input.
If your TV has composite video inputs you may be able to use that for one box and dispense with the combiner. Also, I'd get two different kinds of CECBs so they could be controlled by different remotes. It's probably going to be cumbersome but it should work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.145.109.66 (talk) 18:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
He has two NTSC tuners, there's no reason to combine outputs from two CECBs. Gene, you use a single splitter to fork the antenna signal to two CECBs, then each CECB would be hooked up to a different input of the TV. You could use coax, if possible I would suggest using composite (yellow RCA cable) though. --97.114.2.125 (talk) 05:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you so much for your responses. It does give me a little hope. I do have a whole bunch of red, white, yellow, S3 input/output jacks on the back; but only one coax input and one coax output. I do not have my CECB(s) purchased yet, wish there were a way to test the theory first. Hate to spend $80 or more and then decide to purchase another TV to watch the other show because this jury rig does not work. Not sure how the present dual tuners work, I am guessing that the coax splits internally to the TV and feeds each individual tuner. Currently the PIP works so slick and I do not have to use the remote to watch two things on the screen. I merely use the remote to swap which channel is full screen and the other being small. With two different inputs coming to the TV, I am fearful the TV would need to be instructed on which input to use rather than - hey use both of them and show me both pictures.Gene in NE (talk) 15:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
No need to spend $80, if you have a pair of old DVD or VCR's, video game consoles or other NTSC devices (doesn't matter what they do, just so long as they put out a TV signal) connect them and see if you can watch both at once. If you only have one VCR, see if it and a regular TV channel can be watched at the same time - if so, you could connect one converter to an RF modulator and the other to the VCR inputs to watch PIP after transition. If all else fails, move to Windsor, Ontario :) --99.245.244.176 (talk) 00:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I have another suggestion for you: use the PIP to toggle between digital and analog TV. You may very well find that digital TV is unacceptable with your current antenna on several channels, due to macroblocking, drop-outs, and "no signal" blank screens. Thus, it would be nice to have the ability to switch back to analog TV while it's still available. If you are near the Canadian or Mexican border, or a low-power TV station or carrier transmitter, you may continue to get analog TV after Feb, 2009, as well.
To have both digital and analog work with your PIP, they should both go into the coax TV input. If your TV antenna has two outputs, send the UHF to the converter box and the VHF to the TV directly, then use a splitter/combiner to combine the signals together at the TV. If the antenna doesn't have two outputs, you can buy a device at Radio Shack, etc., that splits a combined signal into UHF, VHF, and maybe FM radio.
You would then use the TV remote to toggle between channel 3 or 4 (whichever has the digital TV signal) and the channel with the analog station you want. You would use the converter box remote to change the digital station being sent to channel 3 or 4.
The reason this method works is that digital TV only comes across the UHF frequencies while analog TV really only needs a VHF antenna. Most TVs still get analog UHF even without an antenna, but you can add a second UHF antenna, if you wish. I wouldn't recommend splitting the UHF output from a single antenna, though, as the converter box needs all the signal it can get. StuRat (talk) 16:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
"digital TV only comes across the UHF frequencies while analog TV really only needs a VHF antenna" And where did you read that little piece of misinformation? --97.114.3.201 (talk) 18:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I have a clarification: Digital TV can be broadcast on either VHF or UHF, but the channels displayed on the screen do not necessarily correspond with the actual RF channels used. However, broadcasters generally like to keep every other channel blank, to avoid cross-talk between adjacent stations, and there are only 12 VHF station (2-13). This means, if you skip every other station, you get at most 6 VHF stations in any given broadcast area. Since that number is so low, and historically there was a time when only VHF stations were available, that has led to the VHF frequencies being "full" in most markets. Thus, there is no room for additional digital stations in the VHF band as long as the analog stations continue to broadcast. However, after February, 2009, when the analog stations cease broadcasting (except class A, low power, translator, and Mexican/Canadian cross-border stations), there will be more VHF stations available. At that time many TV stations which had an analog VHF station and were using a temporary digital UHF frequency will move their digital transmission to their formerly analog frequency in VHF. As for not needing a UHF antenna for analog TV, that certainly seems true in my case. Those loop antennae on the back of the TV seem to be no better than nothing. However, if you have a roof mounted UHF antenna, I concede that it will be better than no antenna. StuRat (talk) 15:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
To clarify: the maximum number of VHF TV stations with no two on adjacent frequencies is seven, not six. There is some space between channels 4 and 5, as well as between 6 and 7, which is more than enough to render these two pairs non-adjacent. That means that this village or this little town could use 2,4,5,7,9,11,13 (seven VHF channels) with no two being adjacent in frequency. Mind you, that doesn't leave much available VHF spectrum for anyone else...
If one were to colour a world map so that no two adjacent provinces/states/countries were to be displayed in the same colour, traditionally four different colours are needed. The same pattern is true when assigning VHF TV channels - no two adjacent markets should be on the same channels so accommodating three national networks would require not three frequencies, but four sets of three - basically the entire VHF dial. This has forced fourth-network operators such as PBS or Dumont onto UHF, originally with mostly disastrous results as few could receive the signal.
The exodus of DTV operations to UHF (to the point where "a new HDTV antenna" is merely a synonym for "UHF-only antenna" or "UHF-primarily antenna") is a result of insane power limits on VHF DTV. The station that can apply for a million-watt signal licensed to channel 14 or above would have to settle for one fiftieth that amount of power if they wanted to stay on channel 6 or lower. The situation on 7-13 is a little better, but it's still limited to 6.5% the DTV signal power of the UHF stations. That hurts. Hence the exodus from VHF post-transition in communities like Syracuse and Buffalo - abandoning frequency assignments which were the most valuable in the spectrum for more than half a century. I'd blame Washington for this, but he has been dead for a while and is in a state of advanced decomposition. --99.245.244.176 (talk) 00:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No Prices Allowed

(copied from User talk:KelleyCook#Comparison of CECB units )) Regarding "No Prices allowed"...

According to WP:DIRECTORY:

"prices of a product should not be quoted in an article unless the price can be sourced and there is a justified reason for its mention"

The article cites a source for the price, the manufacturer suggested retail price, MSRP. And there is a justification for it since the article compares CECB. The usefulness of the article is in question without some way to compare relative cost of each unit, wouldn't you agree? Rewt241 (talk) 19:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No, what would be the justified reason to put in MSRP? As wikipedia is not a directory or review site, comparisons CANNOT take into account prices. MSRP does not add any value when street prices vary wildly (street prices would be clearly against policy) between retail outlets. In general, prices are almost never allowed in articles. An example of a justified exception would be in the article about the Apple Lisa which failed precisely because it cost $10,000. -- KelleyCook (talk) 19:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, I stated the reason why MSRP's might be justified, to compare units. Yes street prices vary, but if I'm interested in 2 units and one has MSRP of $60 and the other is $50, chances are that I'm going to find the MSRP $50 one cheaper on the street. "In general, prices are almost never allowed in articles" I beg to differ. Many articles in Wikipedia have prices. Do a search for the '$' symbol in articles like IPod or XBox. In the end it's pointless to go back and forth on the issue. Since this issue is open to interpretation and Wikipedia is created by users for users, the issue should be decided by the users. If people see a value in MSRP's in the article, reply with a Yay. If you see it as useless information, reply with a Nay. Yay Rewt241 (talk) 20:03, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm on the fence about it. Leaning more toward "nay" though since MSRP seems to fit better in individual articles about each box (which have not been created yet AFAIK). --97.114.21.39 (talk) 20:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I would definitely appreciate an MSRP column on this page. Centerone (talk) 22:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Yay, so would I. The prices seem to vary by about $20, which took me a long time to figure out by going to various web sites, since Wikipedia didn't have the info I needed. StuRat (talk) 16:58, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Nay, because stated MSRP varies, and there is no reliable source for the information. E.g., CM-7000 from a couple NTIA approved vendors - one site says MSRP $85.99, the other says $119.95. T3A Pro - some vendors say MSRP $69.99, one says $59.99, and another says $68.99. 70.131.121.119 (talk) 20:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Include MSRP. This is essentially a "forced" purchase for anyone in the U.S., with the balance over $40.00 being paid for by them and final cost is highly relevant (at least when talking about "CE" CBs). Also, I've yet to see a mfr. have more than one MSRP although they may or may not suggest a retail price, as in the case of the CM-7000. The mfr. has chosen to NOT give a MSRP (at least on the CM web site or in press releases) so "None Stated" under MSRP would also give me a relative baseline for comparison. Retailers on the other hand can ask or state whatever they like above or below at their own risk, but the actual MSRP evens the evaluation playing field and shortens the "most subsidized price" hunt for those of us where cost is relevant, imo. Jd4x4 (talk) 01:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
This article compares the $40 off Coupon Eligible Converter Boxes so the price one pays for the box is an integral part of the article. That a justified reason Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price must be included.
If one cannot find a reliable source for the MSRP then simply do not include it for that particular box instead of removing the prices for all boxes.
Also, street prices do not vary wildly on these products in retail stores.
Most boxes being sold today sell for around $50 or $60 before coupon.
76.244.6.0 (talk) 21:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
If reliable sources for MSRP exist, why not start posting them on this discussion page? If reliable MSRP can be found for a majority of the units, then the main article could be updated accordingly. In this case, a manufacturer website could be a reliable source, but a retailer's site would not qualify. 99.131.130.165 (talk) 05:26, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Availability of CECB units

I have for the most part quit editing this page due to the fact that a majority of these boxes will probably never make it to the market, making it a waste of my time adding information. I think we should have a column showing whether the box is currently available or not. I opt for a column at the far right, so that you can sort through them yet it will still allow you to view all valuable information without scrolling. If there is no strong objection I will add it when I get time; otherwise, feel free to add it yourself.134.121.246.142 (talk) 21:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

You read my mind. I was thinking more along the lines of a column containing a date when the first box became available, only to be filled in when the boxes actually exist to avoid a convertmy.tv/MaxMedia fiasco. --97.114.2.125 (talk) 06:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Why not use an A in the Other Features Box for availability? SurfaceUnits (talk) 16:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe split it into multiple tables, such as "vapourware not available in the US", "vapourware not available in Mexico", "vapourware not available in Canada". I'd suggest one extra table for boxes that have actually been seen on store shelves, but I've never seen one. --66.102.80.212 (talk) 05:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Is this page relevant for Mexico and Canada? I mean, given, they get U.S. TV signals over the border... but do their governments have a coupon program? This is a *CE*CB page -- a reference guide for converter boxes which are coupon eligible. There should be another page just for all converter boxes, and whether it is or isn't available in CA or MX, is kind of irrelevant. Besides, if it's on a market _somewhere_ couldn't you just mail-order it, and/or visit the country to buy it if nobody is importing it?Centerone (talk) 06:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
The page is relevant in that, if a model of converter-only box is junk, that same model will still be junk even if imported to another country and paid-for at full price with no government subsidy. Also, vapourware is still vapourware, regardless of whether you choose to spell it "vaporware" :) And no, there is no CanaMex coupon program as analogue will continue to be available until at least 2011 (2021 in México). --99.245.244.176 (talk) 01:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

This site is a good source of the dates the manufacturers claim their boxes will be available (for whatever such claims are worth): [1]. StuRat (talk) 17:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What about analog Televisions powered by 12 Volt DC

Forgive me if I missed the topic in all of the postings, but I wonder what provisions will be made to make the cigarette lighter TVs work. The only thing that comes to mind is a CECB with an external power supply dropping the voltage from 110v AC to something like 6v to 12v. A cigarette lighter could then power the CECB. Or...purchasing a 12v to 110v inverter. More power cables and devices just to make the change to digital.Gene in NE (talk) 04:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Possibly this is on topic for the article, though the CECB doesn't specifically cover these devices. Your guess is correct that some of the units with external power bricks could be directly powered via your 12 V vehicle voltage without an AC-DC inverter. However, before adding it to the article, WP:OR requires that this be confirmed from a source elsewhere, not by Wikipedia editors.
Regardless, if there is a demand for converter for portable devices like this then the market will respond and supply it (though not with government incentivized pricing). Though I suspect the real answer would be to replace the portable television with an inexpensive ATSC capable one. -- KelleyCook (talk) 10:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree, replace it. The cost of a small portable TV is not much more than the converter box and any other equipment needed to get it to work. And, unlike the TV, if the reception is poor you can't return the converter box to be "made whole", AKA, get your money and coupon back. Also, you would need two cig lighters/utility outlets, one for the TV and one for the converter box. Another consideration is that many portable TVs have integrated antennae, which can't easily be routed through a converter box (you only need to send the UHF signal to the box). Finally, the converter box and extra wires and equipment to make it all work isn't so bad at home, but would be quite a burden in your car. StuRat (talk) 17:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
My original question dealt with a motor home versus a car. Grandkids love to watch TV as we travel down the road. Running the generator for a small load like a portable television is not cost effective. Did a little window shopping and learned that Best Buy did carry a digital/analog tuner portable televsion, but dropped it about a year ago. Radio Shack claims they will have one in about a month for $199.00.Gene in NE (talk) 15:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I should also note that you need a better antenna to get TV stations that don't drop out on you with digital TV. I'd be skeptical that you could reliably get any digital TV stations while driving. If you mean to use the portable TV when the car is stopped, that could work if you take the time to adjust the antenna each time you stop. StuRat (talk) 17:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd tried the MiniState™ antenna, a small 12V antenna-rotor-booster package in one round unit a little under 2' in diameter, and at less than 40 miles from the stations I am having problems with image freezing, pixelation or loss of the entire digital signal. Such an antenna could be used on an RV, but if broadcasters continue to use underpowered DTV signals there will be many locations where you will receive nothing - even if in analogue the signal had snow, ghosting or fading but was still watchable. --66.102.80.212 (talk) 05:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
This seems to be a "hidden feature" of DTV, that the same weak signal, which was acceptable with analog TV (as snow), is completely unacceptable with digital TV (as dropouts). Thus, either the broadcasters must increase their broadcast power or we must all upgrade our antennae. For a motor home, I'd expect you would need a large, roof mounted, rotor antenna. With a lesser antenna, I wouldn't expect much in terms of reception. The roof mounted antenna would obviously need to be enclosed in some type of plastic bubble or be removed when driving, for aerodynamics reasons. This doesn't sound very practical, does it ? Perhaps listening to the radio for news, traffic and weather and bringing a portable DVD player to entertain the kids might be better options. You would just have to record your fav TV programs at home and watch them when you go home. StuRat (talk) 19:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be more to this than just signal strength (although some US broadcasters are notorious for putting out a tenth the signal power on digital, or worse, compared to analogue signals of the same stations). Rapidly-changing conditions (such as fading or reflected signals) wreak havoc with ATSC, while on analogue NTSC they're mostly an annoyance at worst. A signal can be relatively free of snow, but still can be a mess of interference from outside sources, or be adversely affected by obstacles and reflections. A moving vehicle is one of the worst places to try to watch DTV for this reason. At least with an analogue TV you could aim an antenna and actually see in real-time what you were getting (or not getting) - digital just gives a "000% signal" indicator with no indication whether there is weak signal, or interference, or reflections - no indication what causes the problem. A small amplified directional antenna (such as the steerable antenna or the "ministate"-like products) can work well on low-UHF channels. It's worthless on low-VHF, and the underpowered high-UHF signals beloved by so many once-respected analogue broadcasters for their shiny new DTV are all but worthless regardless of antenna choice. That full-size antenna/rotor/tower with the elements eight feet in length? Most of those big pieces of metal direct, reflect or capture low-VHF, it's often just a small section at the front (ahead of the corner reflector on many full-size directional/yagi outdoor antennas) that is designed for UHF. Maybe that made sense when Big Bird was all that was worth watching on UHF, but the DTV transition will leave so many stations moved to new and arbitrary channel selections that the original TV dial will be unrecognisable in most markets. --99.245.244.176 (talk) 00:52, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on the Zenith DTT900

Here are some install and setup hints that don't fit in the article proper (I assume you also want to continue to get analog TV until it's cut off, or even after, if you get Canadian/Mexican channels or low-power analog):

1) Digital TV requires a better antenna than analog TV, or you can expect those fuzzy, but watchable, analog TV programs to become unwatchable due to frequent drop-outs with digital TV. This causes large blocks to appear, the picture and sound to freeze for a few seconds, and sometimes the screen will go blank.

2) If using "rabbit ears" or an "aerial" with separate outputs for UHF and VHF, you can send the UHF to the converter box and continue to send the VHF directly to the TV. This is because digital TV is only broadcast in the UHF range. This will allow you to still get analog TV, as well, since analog TV basically only needs a VHF antenna. (Analog UHF seems to come in on most TVs without an antenna.)

That may be true in your area but it's not true everywhere. In the Dallas/Fort Worth area, WFAA 8 currently broadcasts their digital signal on VHF channel 9, so a converter box would need a VHF signal to receive it.63.145.109.66 (talk) 15:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
It's currently true in many areas, as the overcrowded VHF band has been out of space for new channels since at least 1948 in the largest markets there is usually nowhere to put VHF DTV. If you're KXGN and serve the 210th largest metropolis in the nation, Glendive, Montana, great, but... there are a few other exceptions, but they're rare. This will change, however, as stations with existing 7 - 13 range analogue signals turn them off and move the digital signal to their originally-analogue channel. 10 and 13 Rochester, New York, 11 Chicago, Illinois, 7 Watertown, New York and 13 Newark, New Jersey viewers ought to be able to pick up something ATSC post-transition on these frequencies, for instance. VHF 2-6 are permitted for DTV, but the power limits are artificially low, see list of North American broadcast station classes. A choice between 20kW on 2-6 or 1000kW on channel 14 isn't much of a choice, ouch. --66.102.80.212 (talk) 03:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

3) If you have two-lead output wires from your antenna, you will need to buy a connector to change from the two-lead antenna wires to coax, which this converter box expects as input. Techies like to refer to those by the obscure terms "75 ohm" and "300 ohm" antenna wires, and so call this device a "75 ohm to 300 ohm converter".

It's called a "matching transformer" or a balun, should be available in the dollar stores and was all but synonymous with the connection of TV's to cable television until at least the mid-1980's.

4) If your antenna only has one output, you may want to buy a device which splits a combined antenna signal into UHF (for the converter box), VHF (for the analog VHF channels), and sometimes FM radio.

You may also want to not buy this device, and instead use a small amplifier with two or four signal outputs. Many small UHF stations are low-power TV and not required to shut off their analogue signals during the 2009 US transition.

5) Depending on the inputs your TV has you may need to do different things:

a) Only a single coax input: If you still want to get analog VHF, you will need to combine the digital output coax from the converter box with the VHF output from the antenna. This can be done either with a T-splitter, which links 3 coax cables together all the time, or an A-B box, which allows you to press button A or B to connect either cable A or B to the TV's input.
b) Two coax inputs: This is easier. Just plug the output coax from the converter box into one and the VHF output from the antenna into the other. On the TV, you will need to select which antenna input to use, depending if you are watching digital or analog TV at the time. If you are using the coax output from your converter box, your digital TV will come in on analog channel 3 or 4, which you can select from the converter box menu ("MENU" + "SETUP" + "Output Channel").
c) A coax input and RCA inputs (yellow, white, and red cables): This is the best situation. Use the RCA cables to connect the converter box to the TV, not the coax cable. You can still connect the VHF signal from your antenna to the coax TV input. Some TVs then allow you to select the input you want to use (via the remote), depending on if you want to watch analog or digital TV (the RCA inputs may be called "cable"). Other TVs, unfortunately, require you to go flip a switch on the TV or the TV automatically uses the RCA jacks if they are attached. You would then need to flip the switch or disconnect at least one of the RCA cables to watch analog VHF TV. Also note that the RCA jacks may already be taken up by a VCR, DVD player, or other device. In this case, you may want to go back to steps a and b and attach both the digital TV and analog VHF to the coax TV input, leaving the RCA jacks free for other devices.

6) The "FAV" button on the remote was a bit of a mystery to me, at first. You program it by picking "MENU" + "SETUP" + "Channel Edit" + ">" + "FAV" when on each desired channel in the pop-up list. Then, once you exit the MENU, the FAV button will flip forward through that subset of the channels. There doesn't appear to be any option to flip backward through the list, but you do get a list of all the FAV channels when you hit the button, and can scroll up and down through that list using the up and down arrows.

7) The "SAP" button never appears to work in my area to provide another language.

8) The "GUIDE" button has the odd behavior of only displaying program info for TV stations you've clicked through recently. Otherwise it says "Tune to channel for program information". It only lists the current and next program for each station. This info is also lost when you turn the box off and back on.

9) The "ZOOM" button behaves differently depending if you have "Normal TV (4:3)" or "Wide TV (16:9)" selected under "MENU" + "OPTION" + "TV Aspect Ratio". Under Normal TV, the "ZOOM" button flips through the options "Set By Program", "Letter Box", "Cropped", and "Squeezed". Under Wide TV, it flips through options "Set By Program", "16:9", "4:3", and "Zoom". Unfortunately, if you have the converter box option set so that it doesn't match the aspect ratio for the current channel, it will just say "Aspect ratio cannot be changed on this channel", when you hit the "ZOOM" button. They really need to allow you to set the aspect ratio for each channel independently to solve this issue. "ZOOM" never allows 2X, 3X, or 4X magnification, as it does on many DVD players.

10) The "SLEEP" function is of limited use, since it only turns off the converter box, not the TV. This leaves the TV on with nothing but static, which can be louder than the previous program and wake you up. If your TV also has a sleep setting, make sure the TV goes off before the box to avoid this.

11) The digital closed captioning can be customized fully. You can change the size, font, text color, text opacity, background color, background opacity, edge type, and edge color under "MENU" + "OPTION" + "Caption" + "Digital Option". The "edge color" is apparently the color at the edge of each letter, not at the edge of the caption box. I found the most visible captions to be large, font 3, yellow text and yellow edge color, black background, depressed edge type, and solid text and background. You do occasionally get garbage captions, especially when you've just changed a channel or when it's dropping out, but it's usually right. (One funny example was the phrase "proxy war" being listed as an "epoxy war", inspiring visions of combatants spraying glue on each other.)

12) The volume controls only allow you to reduce the volume below the level set by the TV, not above. I've found that at the 100% setting the volume of digital TV matches the analog volume, but only if you have "Mono" selected under "MENU" + "OPTION" + "Audio Output". If you pick "Stereo", you can never get the volume as high under digital as it was in analog. It's quite annoying if the volume changes when toggling between analog and digital, so I suggest leaving the volume on the converter box set to 100%, setting the audio output to mono, and using your TV remote to control the volume.

13) The remote is laid-out well. It's not a universal remote but does allow you to reduce or mute the volume and allows you to turn on/off most TVs (but not all). It only has one AAA battery so it will likely need to be replaced often. I failed to notice the clear plastic wrap around the supplied battery when I first installed it in the remote, with predictable results. The controls on the base unit are minimal (on/off and channel up/down), so don't lose the remote. If you do lose it, note that you can use the remote from another unit until you find it. Only the "TV POWER" button won't work, unless it's reprogrammed for the new TV.

Bought one of these Zenith DTT900 converters and for the life of me cannot get the remote to work on my Panasonic Model CTJ2042R television. I currently need to use two remotes one to turn on/off the television and the other for volume and channel selection.Gene in NE (talk) 17:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's been my experience so far. If anyone has any questions or suggestions, please let me know. I'd also like to know if the SAP button works for anyone else, if the GUIDE button acts so strangely on other converter boxes, etc. StuRat (talk) 17:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some other DTV/CECB off-air reception considerations:

1. Analog Pass-Through Feature – This may not be only useful in Can/Mex border-states to conveniently receive any remaining non-US analog TV stations. Consider the US LPTV exemption. Those small, local, Low Power stateside transmitters can remain analog. The DTV conversion hardware costs might not be affordable.

2. Antenna Rotator Problem – Consider being sited where the TV transmitters are located in different directions. Most tuner setup features scan and wipe. And you cannot manually add any “unfound” stations. That means a re-scan would be required when changing bearings to receive another channel. According the their Tech Support, Channel Master, which also makes antenna rotators, claims a re-scan will add new channels to their set-top. This is not listed in the specifications. Wonder if any other brands offer this handy feature?

Good idea. We should add "can scan to add channels" to the "additional features" column. 63.145.109.66 (talk) 15:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe the term is called "direct tuning", where you can input an RF channel number on the remote and the box will change to that and scan for an ATSC signal. The Digital Stream DTX9900 is one example of a CECB capable of doing that. Remember that if a channel has remapped itself to the RF number you want to tune you won't be able to do this. --97.114.3.201 (talk) 19:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
That's one thing I found quite annoying about the Panasonic DMR-EZ28K and others in that series; if the initial scan misses a digital signal, it's not possible to add it later without wiping out everything. The same is not true for analogue on that unit (which doesn't qualify for the coupon BTW because it's DVD-based with [braindead] SD and USB support, S/PDIF, HDMI and a few other disqualifying "features"). --66.102.80.212 (talk) 04:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Note that the "-N" flag in the last column of the chart indicates CECBs which lack manual channel edit ability. The Zenith and Insignia models, for example, don't have this shortcoming. StuRat (talk) 15:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The mentally-challenged manual channel editing (you can manually add analogue channels but not digital on some of the DVD units) is only part of the problem. The inability to have the auto-scan add new channels without wiping out the existing information aggravates the problem significantly. Suppose you have two broadcasters in different directions and are using some form of antenna rotor. Point at one station and scan, just that station is found. Now point at the other station and rescan, the second station is found but the first is wiped out from the settings... and you can't add it manually because it's digital. So how do you get all of the channels? Dunno. And these are full-priced ATSC DVD makers, not just inexpensive "coupon boxes", with this rather glaring blunder in firmware design. What were they thinking? --99.245.244.176 (talk) 11:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

3. Station coverage - The FCC plan is to vacate the VHF TV band for non-TV applications, so most DTV broadcasts are allocated on the UHF TV band. Because of greater signal attenuation, those frequencies require more transmitter power at the same antenna height to achieve the same footprint/range. That could cost stations a lot of money for electricity. Note that max ERP (Effective Radiated Power) for LowBand (Ch 2-6) was 100 kW, HighBand (Ch 7-9) was 216 kW, and UHF (Ch 14-83) was 4 mW. Some broadcasters may not spring for this expense. Remember, this is a digital system subject to the same dropout problems as cell phones, so instead of getting a weak but acceptable analog picture you may get none.

Four milliwatts of UHF? Ouch!
I'm unaware of any plans to vacate the entire VHF band. UHF channels 52-69 are to be vacated after 2/17/2009, but not VHF. Channels 2-6 aren't particularly suitable for DTV and few stations plan on using those channels after 2/17, and there's a grassroots movement to reallocate channel 6 to low-power FM radio, but channels 7-13 will remain in widespread use after 2/17. (By the way, DTV power levels are lower than analog; a full-power UHF analog station radiates 5 MW ERP, while an equivalant DTV station radiates only 1 MW.) 63.145.109.66 (talk) 15:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

= Why are lowband channels considered worse than highband for DTV? The 6 MHz RF channel bandwidths are the same. Propagation is actually better at lower frequencies, making the entire VHF spectrum desireable. Lower power allocation for DTV apparently puts HDTV coverage at a disadvantage. Wonder why it is to be so low? I cannot receive some DTV stations at a distance of only 25 smi line-of-site. Tried several receivers too. Free HDTV must be for city folk.

They're worse only because of an insanely-low maximum power limit of 20kW on DTV. The only other possibility would be that, under some very unusual atmospheric conditions, the lower frequencies would be more likely to bounce off the upper atmosphere layers and travel great but unpredictable distances. Nonetheless, that is rare... --66.102.80.212 (talk) 04:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

= Note that several of the DTV assignments currently in use in Phila & NYC are on the UHF channels slated for vacating. (i.e WPVI/ABC-6/64, WCAU/NBC-10/67, WNET/PBS-13/61). BTW the Cellular band was derived from the old TV translator channels 70 to 83. The FCC has been nibbling away for years.

Some of these (such as WNET) will be reusing the original analogue frequencies (and presumably branding such as "thirteen.org" which pre-dates DTV) for ATSC broadcasts after this is all over. Oddly, channel 69 has been assigned to CKWS-TV for ATSC construction *after* the 2009 US switchover - its transmitter location is an island in the middle of the St. Lawrence River, which forms the Canada-USA border in that region. No idea what in Hull the bureaucrats who chose that frequency were thinking, but it does seem that out-of-core channels (52-69) are still being assigned to new transmitters. Oddly, there's even a channel 70 still licensed to a station in Minnesnowta even though it has been out-of-band since 1983 - go figure. --66.102.80.212 (talk) 04:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

= Is there a list revealing the "final" (after Feb 2009) channel assignments for existing TV stations. For example, you revealed that NYC PBS channel 13 VHF which is currently using Ch 61 UHF for DTV will revert to VHF Ch 13 for final DTV. Also, what are the max DTV ERPs authorized on LowBand(2-6), HighBand(7-13), and UHF(14-52)? (I am particularly interested in the NYC/Phila area. Currently, the "temporary" UHF DTV broadcasts offer lousy reception at ONLY 20 smi. Will the NYC LowBand stations Ch 2, Ch 4, Ch 5 stay on UHF or revert?) Possibly, if the stations revert to their former VHF assignments reception might improve. This is unless the lower DTV power levels compromise coverage. Just trying to predict if our circumstances might be better when plugs are pulled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Twiddledee123 (talk • contribs) 15:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not aware of a list, but you can get that info from http://www.antennaweb.org. From your zip code, street address, and/or map click, they will give you a list of digital (and/or analog) stations in your area, and the digital stations which plan to move are listed twice, one of which will have the "Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition)" comment under the "Live Date" column. That's the final RF channel assignment, and the other is the temporary one. StuRat (talk) 16:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

= Thanks for the tip. Have visited antennaweb before. That appears to be a new column and it is not readily apparent the righthand numeric channel assignment is to be the final one. Can I presume your interpretation is correct as all the left and right channel numbers are the same? It would be clearer if the chart also listed the actual current DTV assignment. Since all the VHF slots are occupied in NYC all the DTV outlets are on UHF. Unfortunately, the ATSC TV tuners list the parent channel number rather than the actual one so as not to confuse the public. The antennaweb chart will need updating as not all the NYC stations have the revert detail entered yet. The stations are not divulging any technical info like ERP to the public. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Twiddledee123 (talk • contribs) 00:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

There is a list on http://www.w9wi.com/dtvch/dtvch.html and the original should be on http://fcc.gov somewhere. --99.245.244.176 (talk) 11:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

4. Using DVRs and VCRs with analog tuners - Recording multiple programs on different networks while away from home requires automatic channel changes. The converter boxes have clocks to facilitate the EPG feature, but cannot be programmed to change channels. As the converter boxes are fixed on one channel it appears the only solution is a programmable remote control with built-in timer. We would need the appropriate IR codes unless the remote is also a “learning” one.

A few CECBs boast that they have VCR timers so you can set them to change channels automatically, but the vast majority will need to be remote-controlled as you suggest. Universal remote programming info would be very useful, although I'm not sure it should go in this comparison chart. Perhaps it could be included in individual articles for each converter box. 63.145.109.66 (talk) 15:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
ATSC tuners are only just beginning to find their way into DVD recorders, and the situation for VHS is worse still - most of the ATSC-aware VCR's are combo units.

= Which brands/models specify VCR/DVR IR control?

Those with a "T" in the last column on the chart. I only see one, the Dishnetwork DTVPAL, but there may be more. Also note that you can record one station just by leaving the CECB turned on and tuned to that channel; it's only recording two or more stations during a period when you're away that requires this feature. StuRat (talk) 16:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

5. Channel Jumps - Bummer! Gone are the days of a quick check on what is playing on the last channel visited. Station acquisition for the decode process takes time. The only solution would be two set-tops on a TV set having dual inputs, like those with picture-In-Picture. (Use different set-top brands so the remote control signals do not interfere with each other.)

I have a Digital Stream DTX9900. Channel changes are actually pretty snappy, only slightly slower than analog and in fact quicker than with a cable company provided digital STB. You're probably right about it though, the performance of this box isn't indicative of every CECB. --97.114.3.201 (talk) 19:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments are welcomed.

I've noticed that channel changes are faster on an ATSC-capable TV than on an old circa-1993 analogue set plugged into an ATSC DVD recorder as a set-top box. Annoying, that. It can take a couple of seconds or more for some units to lock onto a new signal. Even the computer video capture adapters (such as the WinTV HVR-950) are noticeably slower to change digital channels than analogue, even though their output is USB and presumably fully-digital. --66.102.80.212 (talk) 04:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

= Wallmart and Radio Shack only stock the low-end boxes and the coupons will expire soon.

Twiddledee123 (talk) 20:58, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Coupons? Try even finding the *boxes* if you're in Canada or México, it's an exercise in frustration at best even though many of the stations received are US-based and affected by this transition. ATSC TV's are plentiful, but DVD units are mostly not ATSC-aware (possibly because whatever can't be sold stateside after transition is going to end up dumped in other NTSC countries) and CECB-style units are nowhere to be found except on eBay or in the US itself. --66.102.80.212 (talk) 04:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Digital CC, for real?

I'm concerned about getting a box that supports the new digital closed caption standard, and I see that many of the boxes in the list are specified with "D" in the Other Features column, but I wonder how reliable this information is? I've picked a few boxes out of the pack and followed the links to see the manufacturers' promotional materials, but typically these spec sheets only say "closed captioning", not digital CC. Support for the old standard is required by the FCC, so this isn't really telling you anything. Are there people updating this page who perhaps don't get the difference? I realize this chart is not intended to be authoritative, and that the "emptor" should always double-check facts for himself before buying, but still... it would be nice if we could count on the info provided here to a minimal extent. It's too bad there's no (easy) way to attribute information updates to particular editors... Himatsu Bushi (talk) 22:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that many people may be confused by digital versus analog CC. I can personally vouch for the Zenith DTT900 as being fully digital CC, however. StuRat (talk) 16:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Program Guide defect

At least for the Zenith DTT900, a defect exists that only allows you to see what's playing on other channels, via the program guide, after you've tuned to each channel to "load the data" for that channel into the program guide, which defeats the whole purpose of a program guide. Since the Zenith program guide only shows the current and next program on each channel, as soon as that period elapses the program guide is once again devoid of info, requiring you to slowly change to each channel again to repopolate the guide with the current data. Do all CECBs work this way ? I would hope they would do a scan at startup (and again whenever the info expires) of all stations to repopulate this info. This info is also lost if you turn the unit off and back on. An alternate way they could fix this problem is to do a program guide channel scan when a button is pressed on the remote (or maybe you could hold down the program guide button for a scan). Do all CECBs have this same limitation ? If so, the only workaround I see is to have a very long period of time covered by the program guide (like 7 days), and always leave the box on. Presumably you would tune to each channel at least once a week, and this would keep the program guide current. StuRat (talk) 16:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How does analog passthrough work ?

1) Does the analog signal only come out the coax output, or also out the other outputs ?

2) Do you need to select analog output on the remote or is it always produced whenever the CECB is on ?

These two seem related, as the coax output can send multiple frequencies at once, but, as far as I know, other outputs only produce a single frequency at a time. StuRat (talk) 09:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe the idea is that, when the box is turned off, the antenna is connected directly through to the coax output so that you can tune normally using the TV. That's how it used to work with the old UHF converters (except that they used old-style twin-lead instead of coax).
Sending an analogue channel to the line-level audio/video jacks would require that the box provide its own built-in analogue tuner, an unnecessary and unjustifiable expense for a low-end "coupon box" that is built just to avoid a loss of more existing channels after analogue shutdown. The same is not true of boxes that provide other functions (such as DVD recorders or disc/VHS combo boxes) as they need to tune the analogue channels to be able to record them. Those boxes, however, have a much steeper price tag and do not qualify for any subsidies. --99.245.244.176 (talk) 01:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
On the Samsung DTB-H260F (non-CECB) when the unit is off the analog signal passed through is attenuated to the point that it's all but unusable. When the unit is on it's given a small boost instead. Since the CECBs output on ch3 or ch4 then passthrough with the box on would simply make one or the other channel unavailable for analog reception. Functionality of passthrough with the box off is determined by manufacture. --97.114.8.22 (talk) 21:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List cleanup?

I've attempted to look up a few of these (specifically ones with S-video shown as unknown) and found no info on the manufacturers' sites. Are they units no longer in production or ones that were never actually produced? Shifting ones no longer made to their own section would simplify things. Surely there must be more than just the Apex Digital DTV250 with S-Video, Analog passthrough and Smart Antenna. That's the only one Apex currently shows on their site, shift the other Apex units to a discontinued(?) list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bizzybody (talk • contribs) 20:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

They're on the NTIA approved list right? Half if not more of the boxes are still in limbo, meaning we haven't seen a production unit yet. There's been discussion on putting a field showing first availability date so we know which boxes are out in the market and which are still essentially vapor. It's a big mess, the gov't didn't have the authority to make sure the boxes were produced and bugfixed on time, the manufacturers wouldn't make the units until retailers ordered them, retailers wouldn't order them until the program started.. like I said a big mess. Nobody did what they were supposed to do to prepare for it.
Only a couple boxes have been discontinued. A couple have been decertified. Mostly they're just not out there yet though. --97.114.8.22 (talk) 21:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)