Talk:Company (musical)

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	Musical Theatre Portal Company (musical) is part of WikiProject Musical Theatre, organized to improve and complete musical theatre articles and coverage on Wikipedia. You can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
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WikiProject Musical Theatre tasks: Help out with one of the WikiProject Musical Theatre tasks below. You may add your name to the Participants list to the right. edit this Open Tasks template Collaborate and work on the Collaboration of the Month Articles needing a content fork Mainly, these are articles on films and either their source or subsequent musicals. There are a couple where the musical needs to be "forked" from the source material. Feel free to add or remove as necessary. Important: If you split an article, please make sure that you move all the relevant links from the first article to the new one. To find which links to move, click on "What links here" at the old article and look through the list to see which links should be pointed to the film related link (for example, articles on actors in the film). Then, click on those links and update them to point to the film article. Thanks! Don't Play Us Cheap Roberta How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying I Married an Angel Lady in the Dark The Band Wagon - musical adaptation will to be forked after it opens in April.

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Contents 1 Removing reference tags 2 External link pruning 3 Synopsis 4 A note on sources 5 Deletion of Character List 6 Fair use rationale for Image:Company 2006.jpg

[edit] Removing reference tags

Please do not remove reference tags again. There are no references for any of the history, awards, or production information. As examples, who is the editor/publisher of the Sondheim Guide, and what makes it rise to the level of WP:RS ? What is the source for "Shortly after opening night, Jones withdrew from the show, allegedly due to illness, but actually due to stress he was suffering from ongoing divorce proceedings." The reference tags have now been removed twice;[1] [2] please don't do it again without providing citations. Thanks you. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External link pruning

The geocities.com personal website, Live, Laugh, Love: Company, doesn't appear to meet WP:RS, and should be pruned per WP:EL, WP:NOT. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Synopsis

An editor removed the Synopsis from this article that I wrote today. Please replace it so that we can edit it. Thanks. -- Ssilvers 17:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this what you're referring to? [3] SFTVLGUY2 is claiming it is a direct copyvio; that's a serious charge. SFTV, can you please supply the link or source which you say it copies? Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Strange. I don't see how *both* can be verbatim, since the first deletion and the second deletion seem to be different. I've also reminded SFTVLGUY2 on his talk page[4][5] to be aware of WP:3RR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Responding to SFTVLGUY2 post to my talk page:

Making multiple edits to an article is common; the problem occurs when you return to remove edits of other editors more than 3 times, or in fact, multiple times without discussion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The second synopsis you removed is different than the first (inserted by an anon IP); are both copyvios? Please provide the source of the second copyvio, as you appear to be accusing Ssilvers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

PS, unless you can demonstrate that the second synopsis—inserted by Ssilvers and tweaked by Broadwaygal—is a copyvio, can you please reinsert it? Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Awkward is in the eyes of the beholder. Per WP:LEAD, the previous version was incorrect, and I indicated the lead still needed to be expanded. Now it has been expanded, and the article is getting closer to an adequate structure. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Distortion of images varies according to browsers: I saw none. At any rate, thanks for correcting. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC) I'm also curious as to why you are deleting infoboxes just because of image distortion? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

"Sins"? My, my. SFTV, please remember to WP:AGF, and you have no reason to question my interest in musical theatre (nor do I feel inclined to divulge my extensive interest or family members' professions and involvement in straight plays and MT). Your perusal of my article contributions is clearly incomplete. I look forward to continued collaboration on improving MT articles on Wikipedia; it is quite frustrating to me that, each time a family member is cast, I have never been able to find adequate information on Wikipedia, and have to rely on other Google sources for casting, synopsis, and production information. I look forward to improving articles throughout Wiki. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, please do not cut-and-paste a message from your personal talk page and place it here as if it was my handiwork. My message on your talk page was in response to one you left on mine. If I wanted it to be part of this discussion, I would have placed it here. I find it highly unethical that you would choose to put it in a place other than where I intended it to be.

It's not "unethical", although I'm sorry it offended you. If you'll notice, I specifically called your attention to the article talk page in my original message. If you are deleting edits of other editors, it is incumbent upon you to participate in article talk page discussion. I wanted to make sure you are aware of that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The synopsis Ssilvers claims he wrote today was added by an anonymous editor the other day. And as with all his summaries, it is considerably longer than the 500-750 word length maximum permitted according to what I was told by an administrator soon after I joined Wikipedia. Is this policy no longer in effect? If it is, why does he continue to protest when I shorten his egregiously long synopses? Perhaps someone needs to remind him that a synopsis is supposed to be a brief rundown of the plot, not a blow-by-blow account of everything that happens between curtain up and the curtain calls.

The synopsis added by Ssilvers (and deleted by you) is not the same as your previous deletion. I have never encountered a limit on synopsis; perhaps you can find a guideline for that? I'll ask around, but I've never encountered that guideline (and it's certainly not "policy"). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, here's what I've found. Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Style guidelines. These are guidelines which apply to films. Musicals could benefit from having such clear guidelines, starting from this suggested structure. They have a guideline of a 900-word limit. Books and other areas may have different guidelines, but neither are "policy". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Here's more; basically, they should be in the context of a larger article. The problem we have is that the "larger article" content is being deleted, apparently. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The synopsis that I inserted today is 911 words. The plot synopsis at Porgy and Bess is 1,171 words, and that is a Featured Article. I believe that the synopsis of many of the plays that are Featured Articles are significantly longer. In any event, there are article guidelines for musicals at Wikipedia:WikiProject Musical Theatre/Article Structure -- Ssilvers 18:59, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, is there a way to check if one editor is using multiple names? I'm finding remarkable similarities in poor grammatical structure and writing styles of two allegedly different individuals. SFTVLGUY2 18:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

You are always wecome to submit a request at Checkuser (WP:RFCU) if you suspect sockpuppetry, but they aren't likely to comply with "fishing expeditions" unless you have very solid evidence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

IMO, deleting synopses from articles is unproductive. If you have an objection to the way a synopsis is written and don't want to edit it yourself to improve it, please put a note on the talk page (and at the WP:MUSICALS talk page, which several people watch) to explain your objection to the section, so that other editors are then alerted to come improve the section. WP works best as a collaborative process. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 18:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Whenever I do edit a synopsis to make it clear and concise and omit every little detail that doesn't belong in a summary, you scream bloody murder!!! Who assigned you Wikipedia's king of musical theatre? You expect me to follow your rules and regulations but rarely pay any attention to them yourself. SandyGeorgia says if I am deleting edits of other editors, it is necessary to participate in article talk page discussion, but you constantly revert my work without doing what she suggests. I really might pay more attention to your rants if I saw some original contributions from you, but while I've written 400+ articles, most related to theatre (thus filling a tremendous gap in the encyclopedia), all I see from you is frequently unnecessary editing to existing articles, ridiculously long plot summaries, and lots of nitpicking. Your constant harassment is tiresome, and needing to respond to it is a drain on valuable time I could be devoting to more serious work. PLEASE - you kept your distance from me for a few weeks and I greatly would appreciate your adopting that practice again. Thank you. SFTVLGUY2 19:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I will not stand by and watch you or any other editor destroy useful content added to Wikipedia by other editors. Please stop deleting information called for by Wikipedia guidelines, and I will have no disagreement with you. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 19:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Please calm down, SFTV, and consider civility. I can't comment on your past history, but you are exhibiting some ownership tendencies on the articles I've edited, rather than collaborating with others. What I've seen on this article is that you don't discuss your edits on talk page. For example, you reverted here a plot summary inserted by Ssilvers, and you've not yet justified where you claim the copyvio comes from. (Please reinsert it if you can't explain the copyvio charge, so as to avoid edit warring—then you can discuss having Ssilvers cut it down if you still believe it's too long.) You've also deleted infoboxes without explaining why. Let's please stay focused on issues one at a time, and try to work together, without delving into past perceived issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I added another plot synopsis. Let me make it clear that this was not copied verbatim from the liner notes. Thank you -Broadwaygal 19:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree that it could be a bit trimmer—maybe 100 words less? But I'm open to discussion. It doesn't need to cover every scene; just give the overall flavor. (And how about a character list, so the reader knows who's who?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll take a look at it later, Sandy, unless you can take a whack at it. It is getting better and better (thanks Broadwaygal), except that it has lost many of the blue links that my version had. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 19:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think I took care of the blue links. - Thanks Broadwaygal 19:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Voila! Character list added! -- Ssilvers 19:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

As I read the information from the WP:NOT link (above), the issue is that we can't have only a synopsis in the absence of the rest of a well-developed article.

Plot summaries. Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic.

The problem that we have is that, if other information is being deleted, the plot summaries fall prey to WP:NOT. Entire articles need to be rebuilt, according to a recommended article structure such as at WP:MUSICALS or WP:FILMS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that we shouldn't have only a plot summary section. But a plot summary section is an essential element of an article about a musical, and it's (as Maria would say) "a very good place to start!" We must also add the "real world context and sourced analysis" (that is genesis/background, cast info, character list and productions, and, where warranted, themes in the story/musical analysis), followed by a section on the cultural/historical influence of the work (if any). So, cutting an existing synopsis down to a few sentences or a single paragraph discourages other editors from editing and improving the material that is already there. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 03:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. These articles need to be built, not deconstructed. There are no GA or FA MT articles, probably because no structure is being followed in building the articles. It's no wonder I must turn to Google every time I'm looking for info about a production. SandyGeorgia (Talk)

Right, except for Porgy and Bess, which has been staged as a musical sometimes and as an opera sometimes. That article is FA. Here is the "Article Assessment" page from the musicals project, but it is the victim of some serious grade inflation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Musicals/Article_Assessment. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 05:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Some of the assessments entered on that page make have no relationship at all with any other WikiProject standard. It lists articles as A-class that aren't even GA. I notice no other Project has those articles listed as A-class. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A note on sources

I added some inline notes, but don't have time to check that the recent sources added meet WP:RS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, why were good sources replaced with shaky ones ? [6] In particular, WP:BLP demands the highest-quality sources for living persons. We can't use JoeSomebody'sPersonalWebsite.com to source information about a divorce. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of Character List

An editor deleted the character list, which was relatively short and sweet. I think the character list is helpful. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? -- Ssilvers 05:25, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I love character lists, especially when there are a number of characters, such as in this piece. Oh, well, looks like the guy who yells the loudest wins. (I have absolutely no intention of commenting further on the sad state of affairs that has developed. I sincerely hope my comment is not taken as "uncivil", and if so, I apologize in advance.)JeanColumbia 13:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I replaced the character list. It's very helpful in an ensemble piece like this where there are a lot of significant characters. I took the liberty of copying your post to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musical Theatre, where this subject is currently being discussed. That is where your opinion will do the most good. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 19:25, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Company 2006.jpg

Image:Company 2006.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

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