Talk:Common Era

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[edit] Quote?

Why does the quote from the Jews use "L-rd" instead of "Lord"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ztobor (talk • contribs) 21:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The quote comes from http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/calendar.html#Years, which in turn says the source of the information is Judiasm 101. Searching that site for "L-rd" leads to this statement:
L-rd
A way of avoiding writing a name of G-d, to avoid the risk of the sin of erasing or defacing the Name. See The Name of G-d.
--Gerry Ashton (talk) 01:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
I myself think it is kind of stupid (without offense to the Jewish population itself), because covering a letter already defaces the name. ZtObOr 22:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to reduce treatment of AD

  • while keeping article independent of AD article
    • there should be some explanation of origins in Dionysius, and some detail showing any gap between entrenchment of AD & usage of Common Era is much less than often supposed - due to quite early use of "Common Era" & quite late entrenchment of AD (it could turn out to be even less than this article now shows) (widespread usage of AD as an abbreviation seems to be not until about 300 years ago)

[edit] Origins

Origins of CE year numbering begins with the Anno Domini system
See also: Anno Domini

The system of numbering years used in Common Era notation began around the year 525[1] with the monk Dionysius Exiguus, while he was in Rome working on a table to establish future dates for Easter. At that time, Easter dates included calculations in the Julian calendar based on years since the reign of Diocletian, and Dionysius did not want to continue the memory of Diocletian, who had been a persecutor of Christians. In the process, Dionysius gave a method to calculate "annos ab incarnatione Domini nostri Jesu Christi" (Latin for years since the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ).[1]

Usage of Dionysius' system began to have more widespread usage in northern England in the year 731, when the Venerable Bede used it to date the events in his Ecclesiastical History of the English People. Bede also used another Latin term "ante uero incarnationis dominicae tempus" ("the time before the Lord's true incarnation"), equivalent to the English "before Christ", to identify years before the first year of this era.[2] Usage of Anno Domini gradually became more common in Western Europe in the latter part of the 9th century, and, while it occurred occasionally in papal documents of the time of John XIII (965-972), it was not the rule before the 12th century.[3][4] In 1422, Portugal became the last Western European country to switch to the Anno Domini system.[5]

Origins of usage of Common Era terminology

The term "Common Era" is traced back in English to its appearance as "Vulgar Era" (from the Latin word vulgus, the common people, i.e. those who are not royalty) at a time when vulgar did not mean "crudely indecent". The first use of the Latin equivalent (vulgaris aerae) discovered so far was in a 1617 table of ephemerides.[6] A 1635 English edition of that book has the title page in English - so far, the earliest-found usage of Vulgar Era in English.[7] (A 1652 ephemeris is the first instance so far found for English usage of "Christian Era".[8]) A 1701 book edited by John LeClerc includes "Before Christ according to the Vulgar Æra, 6".[9] A 1716 book in English by Dean Humphrey Prideaux says, "before the beginning of the vulgar æra, by which we now compute the years from his incarnation."[10][11] A 1796 book uses the term "vulgar era of the nativity". [12]

The phrase "common era" was used as an English synonym for "vulgar era" at least as early as 1770, in a translation of a book originally written in German.[13] The 1797 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica uses the terms vulgar era and common era synonymously.[14] In 1835, in his book Living Oracles, Alexander Campbell, wrote: "The vulgar Era, or Anno Domini; the fourth year of Jesus Christ, the first of which was but eight days",[15] and also refers to the common era as a synonym for vulgar era with "the fact that our Lord was born on the 4th year before the vulgar era, called Anno Domini, thus making (for example) the 42d year from his birth to correspond with the 38th of the common era..."[16] The Catholic Encyclopedia uses the sentence: "Foremost among these [various eras] is that which is now adopted by all civilized peoples and known as the Christian, Vulgar or Common Era, in the twentieth century of which we are now living."[5] During the 19th century, "Vulgar Era" came to be contrasted with "Christian Era", and "vulgar" came to mean "crudely indecent", thus no longer a synonym for "common".

The phrase "common era", in lower case, also appeared in the 19th century in a generic sense, not necessarily to refer to the Christian Era, but to any system of dates in common use throughout a civilization. Thus, "the common era of the Jews",[17][18] "the common era of the Mahometans",[19] "common era of the world", [20] "the common era of the foundation of Rome".[21] When it did refer to the Christian Era, it was sometimes qualified, e.g., "common era of the Incarnation",[22] "common era of the Nativity",[23] or "common era of the birth of Christ".[24]

Some Jewish academics were already using the CE and BCE abbreviations by the mid-19th century, such as in 1856, when Rabbi and historian, Morris Jacob Raphall used the abbreviation in his book, Post-Biblical History of The Jews.[25]


< !---

  1. ^ a b Nineteen Year Cycle of Dionysius (HTML). Retrieved on 2007-12-12.
    Nineteen Year Cycle of Dionysius (plain text). Retrieved on 2007-12-12.
    Dionysius made no reference in this document to years before Jesus.
  2. ^ Bede (731). Historiam ecclesiasticam gentis Anglorum Book 1, Chapter 2, first sentence. Retrieved on 2007-12-07.
  3. ^ New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia (1908). Dates and Dating Vol IV. Robert Appleton Company, New York. Retrieved on 2007-12-12.
  4. ^ B. M. Lersch, Einleitung in die Chronologie, 2 vols., Freiburg, 1899 (vol. ii. on Christian Calendar) p. 233
  5. ^ a b New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia (1908). General Chronology Vol III. Robert Appleton Company, New York. Retrieved on 2007-12-12.
  6. ^ In Latin, Common Era is written as Vulgaris Aerae.
    • Earliest-found use of "vulgaris aerae" (Latin for Common Era) (1617). Retrieved on 2007-12-14. Johannes Kepler, Jakob Bartsch (1617). Ephemerides novae motuum coelestium, ab anno vulgaris aerae MDCXVII[-XXXVI].... Johannes Plancus. “Part 3 has title: Tomi L Ephemeridvm Ioannis Kepleri pars tertia, complexa annos à M.DC.XXIX. in M.DC.XXXVI. In quibus & tabb. Rudolphi jam perfectis, et sociâ operâ clariss. viri dn. Iacobi Bartschii ... Impressa Sagani Silesiorvm, in typographeio Ducali, svmptibvs avthoris, anno M.DC.XXX.” 
    • Translation of title (per 1635 English edition): New Ephemerids for the Celestiall Motions, for the Yeeres of the Vulgar Era 1617-1636
  7. ^ Earliest so-far-found use of vulgar era in English (1635). Retrieved on 2007-12-18. Johann Kepler, Adriaan Vlacq. Ephemerides of the Celestiall Motions, for the Yeers of the Vulgar Era 1633.... 
  8. ^ first appearance of "Christian Era" in English (1652). Retrieved on 2007-12-19. Sliter, Robert (1652). A celestiall glasse, or, Ephemeris for the year of the Christian era 1652 being the bissextile or leap-year : contayning the lunations, planetary motions, configurations & ecclipses for this present year ... : with many other things very delightfull and necessary for most sorts of men : calculated exactly and composed for ... Rochester. London: Printed for the Company of Stationers. 
  9. ^ vulgar era in English (1701). Retrieved on 2007-12-14. (1701) in John LeClerc: The Harmony of the Evangelists. London: Sam Buckley, p 5. “Before Christ according to the Vulgar AEra, 6” 
  10. ^ Prideaux use of "Vulgar Era" (1716) (1799 reprint). Retrieved on 2007-12-14. Humphrey Prideaux, D.D. (1716). The Old and New Testament Connected in the History of the Jews and Neighbouring Nations. Edinburgh: D. Schaw & Co., p 1 Vol 1. “This happened in the seventh year after the building of Rome, and in the second year of the eighth Olympiad, which was the seven hundred forty-seventh year before Christ, i. e. before the beginning of the vulgar æra, by which we now compute the years from his incarnation.” 
  11. ^ Merriam Webster accepts the date of 1716, but does not give the source. Merriam Webster Online entry for Vulgar Era. Retrieved on 2007-12-12.
  12. ^ "vulgar era of the nativity" (1796). Retrieved on 2007-12-18. Rev. Robert Walker, Isaac Newton, Thomas Falconer. Analysis of Researches Into the Origin and Progress of Historical Time, from the Creation to .... London: T. Cadell Jr. and W. Davies, p10. “Dionysius the Little brought the vulgar era of the nativity too low by four years.” 
  13. ^ Hooper, William; Bielfeld, Jacob Friedrich (1770). The Elements of Universal Eurdition (v. 2). London: G. Scott, printer, for J Robson, bookseller in New-Bond Street, and B. Law in Ave-Mary Lane, p 105. Retrieved on 2007-09-13. 
  14. ^ "vulgar era" in 1797 EB p 228 v.14 pt.1 P (Peter) (1797). Retrieved on 2007-12-14. “St Peter died in the 66th year of the vulgar era”
    "common era" in 1797 EB p 50 v.14 pt.1 P (Paul) (1797). Retrieved on 2007-12-14. “This happened in the 33rd year of the common era, fome time after our Saviour's death.”
    Encyclopedia Britannica: Or, A Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, and Miscellaneous Literature (Third Edition in 18 volumes). (1797). Ed. George Gleig. v.14 pt.1 P. 
  15. ^ Alexander Campbell (1835). The Living Oracles, Fourth Edition, pp 16-20. Retrieved on 2007-12-12. 
  16. ^ Alexander Campbell (1835). The Living Oracles, Fourth Edition, pp 15-16. Retrieved on 2007-12-12. 
  17. ^ "common era of the Jews" (1874). Retrieved on 2007-12-12. “the common era of the Jews places the creation in BC 3760” (1874) in A. Whitelaw: Conversations Lexicon V. Oxford University Press, Volume V p 207. 
  18. ^ "common era of the Jews" (1858). Retrieved on 2007-12-13. “Hence the present year, 1858, in the common era of the Jews, is AM 5618-5619, a difference of more than 200 years from our commonly-received chronology.” Rev. Bourchier Wrey Savile, MA (1858). The first and second Advent: or, The past and the future with reference to the Jew, the Gentile, and the Church of God. London: Wertheim, Macintosh and Hunt, p 176. 
  19. ^ "common era of the Mahometans" (1856). Retrieved on 2007-12-13. “Its epoch is the first of March old style. The common era of the Mahometans, as has already been stated, is that of the flight of Mahomet.” Johannes von Gumpach (1856). Practical tables for the reduction of Mahometan dates to the Christian calendar. Oxford University, p 4. 
  20. ^ "common era of the world" (1801). Retrieved on 2007-12-14. William Jones (1801). The Theological, Philosophical and Miscellaneous Works of the Rev. William Jones. London: Rivington. 
  21. ^ "common era of the foundation of Rome" (1854). Retrieved on 2007-12-13. Alexander Fraser Tytler, Lord Woodhouselee (1854). Universal History: From the Creation of the World to the Beginning of the Eighteenth Century. Boston: Fetridge and Company, p 284. 
  22. ^ "common era of the Incarnation" (1833). Retrieved on 2007-12-13. (1833) The Encyclopaedia Britannica: A Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, and General Literature, 9 V, New York: Henry G. Allen and Company, 9th edition, Vol V, p711. 
  23. ^ "common era" "of the Nativity" (1864). Retrieved on 2007-12-13. “It should be observed, however, that these years correspond to 492 and 493, a portion of the annals of Ulster being counted from the Incarnation, and being, therefore, one year before the common era of the Nativity of our Lord.” James Henthorn Todd (1864). St. Patrick, Apostle of Ireland, A Memoir of his Life and Mission. Dublin: Hodges, Smith & Co, Publishers to the University, pp 495, 496, 497. 
  24. ^ "common era of the birth of Christ" (1812). Retrieved on 2007-12-14. Heneage Elsley (1812). Annotations on the Four Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles (2nd edition), 2nd, London: A. J. Valpy for T. Payne, p xvi. 
  25. ^ The term common era does not appear in this book; the term Christian era [lowercase] does appear a number of times. Nowhere in the book is the abbreviation explained or expanded directly. Search for era in this book..

--->

—Preceding unsigned comment added by JimWae (talk • contribs)

I offer some corrections to this new section. Dionysius invented the Anno Domini era in 525, not around 525, because he says in his preface that the present year is the consulship of Probus Junior, and states in his First Argumentum that the consulship of Probus Junior was 525 years since the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The phrase "At that time, Easter dates included calculations in the Julian calendar based on years since the reign of Diocletian" might give the wrong impression. The table that Dionysius extended was indeed in the Julian calendar, but it only circulated in the Latin West—it was not actually used in the Latin West. It was a translation of the table used by the Church of Alexandria. It was translated from Greek into Latin and from the Alexandrian calendar into the Julian calendar. Only Alexandria used Diocletian years. Dionysius totally ignored the tables then used in the Latin West, which were devised by Victorius of Aquitaine in 457. (Charles W. Jones, "The development of the Latin ecclesiastical calendar", Bedae opera de temporibus (Cambridge, Mass., 1943) 1-122; Georges Declercq, Anno Domini: The origins of the Christian era (Turnhout, 2000); idem, "Dionysius Exiguus and the introduction of the Christian era", Sacris Erudiri 41 (2002): 165-246.)
Bede popularized the Anno Domini era because he used it in his history, which was copied many times. But that era was used in English and Irish charters for several decades before Bede's extensive use in 731, but these charters were not influential. — Joe Kress (talk) 09:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Poorly supported statement

I was looking at this edit and wondered which version of the following statement was better supported.

Before:

Common Era notation has been adopted by many non-Christians, and also by some Christians wanting to be sensitive to non-Christians.

After:

Common Era notation has been widely adopted, either to obtain a secular notation for our time system, or to express sensitivity towards non-Christians.

But when I read the cited newspaper story, I didn't think it supported either version very well. It mentions some specific institutions that have adopted, or partially adopted, CE, and that it is "showing up at museums, in academic circles and in school textbooks", but it does not say it is widely adopted, nor does it say that "many" are adopting it, nor does it say that those adopting it are necessarily non-Christian.

What is needed at this point in the article is a statement about how widely CE is adopted. We need a different source and a different statement. Unfortunately, I don't know of a good source to use in this spot. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 15:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Usage by non-Christians will likely need separate source - such as usage in China.
  • Some rewording or new source likely needed on motivations of Christians who use it
  • Extent of usage - I do not know of any surveys... "widely adopted" is too vague anyway--JimWae (talk) 20:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Btw, we have already found Xn writers among earliest adopters - I do not think we need to generalize to "in Europe" either -- perhaps "among Christians in Europe" will do --JimWae (talk) 20:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC) --JimWae (talk) 04:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources-reorganized

Jewish Studies

Christian Studies

Religious Studies Course Books

Religious Studies

Women's Studies

OTHER courses

Reference Books

??

NEW

--JimWae (talk) 05:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Source requested for "assumptions" about the religious orientations of the "writer and reader"

The following passage (in the opening section) reads like somebody's personal opinion:

  • The only difference between Common Era, Christian Era, and Anno Domini notation is in the names themselves. Anno Domini (which means in the year of the/our Lord) both ties the epochal event to the Christian religion and identifies Jesus as one's "Lord", thus carrying an assumption[citation needed] that writer and reader are both Christian. Christian Era also ties the epochal event to the Christian religion, but makes no assumption[citation needed] about the writer and reader's culture or religion. Common Era does not identify the epochal event at all, and does not indicate the culture within which the system is in "common" use. Common Era terminology's only assumption is that writer and reader share a common year-numbering system.

In particular, the "assumptions" whether or not the "writer and reader" are Christian are a matter of personal opinions and pure speculation. I believe that the etymology of the term Anno Domini and Christian Era are irrelevant to the religious orientation of any writer or reader. If you believe otherwise, you need to provide a source for these biased claims.

I'll start out by requesting a reputable source to back up these claims. If a source is found, we can then discuss whether that source is biased or not.--Endroit (talk) 20:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

To me, the passage as it stands (and it doesn't need citations) is entirely self-evident from simple English. If I say "that is our house", the word 'our' implies a comonality of ownership. So specifically, the Year of "our" lord is actually the year of your lord but he is not mine because I am not a christian. But I don't go barging into the Anno Domini article demanding that it be changed to "the year of your lord" because I recognise the right of christians to hold the views that they do. BUT equally I have a right to use CE as as a connotation-free designation of the dominant calendar AND have that status equally recognised. --Red King (talk) 20:47, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Sounds like more original research, particularly involving the use of the word "our". The word "our" was added by some translators, when translating from Medieval Latin. Merriam-Webster translates it "in the year of the Lord" using "the" (not "our"). Read WP:NOR before going around spreading original research wrt the use of the word "our". So there, this whole passage requires a source since it involves a biased interpretation of "Anno Domini" (using "our") to begin with.--Endroit (talk) 21:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
"Our" is good enough for the Oxford University Press; see the reference I added. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 21:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Oxford goes both ways, since Oxford Dictionaries translates it "in the year of the Lord".--Endroit (talk) 21:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The original Latin phrase "Anno Domini" does not contain the Latin word "Nostri", meaning "Our". I'm guessing that it was perhaps added by a Christian translator. The religious orientation of the translator, however, is utterly irrelevant to the religious orientations of the "writer and reader", claimed in the above passage.--Endroit (talk) 21:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) You guessed wrong. The real original phrase is explained in the book Gregorian Reform of the Calendar edited by Coyne, Hoskin, and Pedersen (1983, p. 49).

In his letter to Petronius Dionysius explained that he did not want to use his Easter table to perpetuate the memory of an impious persecutor of the church, but preferred to count and denote the years from the Incarnation of our Lord, in order to make the foundation of our hope better known and the cause of the redemption of man more conspicuous — noluimus circulis nostris memoriam impii et persecutoris innectere, sed magis elegimus ab incarnatione domini nostri Jesu Cristi annorum tempora praenotare; quantinus exordium spei nostrae notius noblis existeret et causa reparationis humanae, id est, passio redemptoris nostri, evidentius eleceret. [emphasis added]

So all the translators did was restore a word that was already present in the phrase that the short form anno domini is derived from. Coyne et. al attribute the passage to B. Krusch, Studien zur christlich-mittelalterlich Chronologie, III: Die entstehun unserer heutighe Zeitrechnung, in Abbb. d. Preuss. Akad. d. Weiss., Philos.-hist. Klasse, Nr. 8, Berlin, 1938. p. 64. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 22:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The truncated form Anno Domini most clearly does NOT contain the word Nostri, despite what the "long form" is (or was). So it would be original research to claim that usage of Anno Domini still carries "an assumption that writer and reader are both Christian" based on the notion that somehow the nonexistent word Nostri still exists. But of course, that's a matter of interpretation: The word "Our", although no longer there in Latin, may still appear to exist in English for some, especially Christians, although not for others. Considering that both translations (with or without the word "our") are possible, you are urged to find a source explicitly declaring that the usage of Anno Domini implies "that writer and reader are both Christian".
WP:UNDUE quotes Jimbo Wales as follows:
  • If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
  • If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
  • If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.
Please provide some reference(s) backing "assumptions" about the religious orientations of the "writer and reader" claimed in the above passage. And let's see if they satisfy WP:UNDUE.--Endroit (talk) 23:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe it's straightforward exposition that follows logically from the terms themselves, and therefore needs no reference. There is nothing in Wikipedia policy that says we are not allowed to explain things. If one is strolling along and encounters a building inscribed "ÆDIFICATA ANN DOM MDCCCLXXI ANN COLL HARV CCXXXV," one does not need a reference to deduce that the inscription was written by Harvard men for Harvard men. If there's a building at Yale dated "ANN COLL HARV" let me know and I'll eat my words.

However, if one were strolling with a companion who knew no Latin, did not know what "ANN DOM" or "ANN COLL HARV" meant, and asked for an explanation, it would be perfectly reasonable to explain them. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I doubt your interpretation that the "ANN DOM MDCCCLXXI" (AD 1871) part of the Memorial Hall inscription "carries an assumption that the writer and reader are both Christian" (even back in those days).--Endroit (talk) 04:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Paragraph about differences

User: Endroit has applied fact templates to two sentences in the lead paragraph that attempts to summarize the differences between Common Era and Anno Domini notation. The first sentence with a template reads "Anno Domini (which means in the year of the/our Lord) both ties the epochal event to the Christian religion and identifies Jesus as one's "Lord", thus carrying an assumption[citation needed] that writer and reader are both Christian." Perhaps "carrying an assumption" is not the right way to convey the meaning here. In reality, the writer and/or reader may not know or care what Anno Domini means, beyond it being an identifier of the year numbering scheme. Perhaps we could say that if "Anno Domini" were interpreted literally, it would constitute an acknowledgement by the writer that Jesus is the lord, and an implicit expectation that the reader will at least tolerate, if not agree with, this acknowledgement.

The other sentence with a fact template is "Christian Era also ties the epochal event to the Christian religion, but makes no assumption[citation needed] about the writer and reader's culture or religion." Again, we don't really know how real readers or writers will interpret "Christian Era". It could be interpreted as "numbering years the way Christians do" or "the era that begins about the same time the Christian religion began" without stating whether or not the reader or writer is a Christian.

There was some discussion about the best way to word this before. I think what we need here is a paragraph that gives an overview of the connotations of the three terms, and I think the current passage does get the idea across with respect to "Anno Domini" and "Common Era"; now that I've given it more thought, I'm not so sure the paragraph gives the correct connotation of "Christian Era". --Gerry Ashton (talk) 20:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

But the usage "Christan Era" is entirely incidental. The article title is Common Era, not Christian Era, which is something bunged in after the event as a backronym for CE. We can solve the problem entirely by moving all references to christian era from this article to a new article of that name and making CE a disambig. --Red King (talk) 20:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
At present, CE and BCE redirect to this article, therefore, this article MUST present any recognized expansions of CE and BCE. Since some dictionaries expand these to Christian Era and Before the Christian Era, those expansions must be in this article.
The alternative would be to replace the redirects with disambiguation pages. If recognized expansions of CE and BCE ever come along that have nothing to do with calendars, we might end up creating disambiguation pages anyway, but no such non-calendar expansions have come to my attention yet. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 21:18, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
CE does have a non calendar meaning - see CE mark. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Red King (talk • contribs) 00:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I should point out for US readers that the CE marking is has far greater significant in Europe than the FCC mark does in the US, because it applies to a far broader range of goods that have health and safety implications, not just consumer electronics like FCC. --Red King (talk) 20:31, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


It may suffice to remove the sentence about Christian Era:
  • Christian Era also ties the epochal event to the Christian religion, but makes no assumption about the writer and reader's culture or religion.
Then the comparison between Anno Domini and Common Era can be reduced to what exists in real life, per WP:UNDUE.--Endroit (talk) 16:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately that lobby are unlikely to accept such a 'tidy' solution, and in particular will assert that CE means Christian Era just as much as it does Common Era. So rather than have a permanent revert war, I make the modest proposal for demerger - see below. --Red King (talk) 20:31, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to demerge

This article is running into difficulties because it is trying to do too many things. They need to be split into sepearate articles.

  1. Common Era: the religion-independent designation used around the world by most people of differing faiths and none.
  2. Christian Era : synonomous with Anno Domini but we need a home for all the Vulgar Era stuff.
  3. CE and BCE : disambiguation articles pointing to the reader's choice of association.

Otherwise this article will be a continual battle-ground with the fundamentalists. --Red King (talk) 21:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

"Common Era" has a less overt religious connotation than "Anno Domini" or "Christian Era", but there is some evidence that the phrase was created by Christians around the same time "Anno Domini" came into use in English. Also, there is the fact that it still uses the same epoch as AD, and no plausible event other than the Incarnation of Jesus has been suggested for choosing that epoch, so Common Era is not religion-independent. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 21:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
A pure 'Common Era' article could recognise the historical antecedents but these are essentially incidental to its modern usage. Today it is the era that is commonly accepted as a convenient de facto standard used in worldwide business, by people of many faiths and none. --Red King (talk) 00:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some Support arguments are -still- nonsensical

Are they still going to be there? Can't we find a proper, logically meaningful way of supporting this argument? My (archived) comment, contesting the internal coherence of some of them, is here:


I am perplexed at the argumentative value of some of the arguments brought in support to this notation, especially the first three:
  • The label Anno Domini is almost certainly inaccurate; "scholars generally believe that Christ was born some years before A.D. 1, the historical evidence is too sketchy to allow a definitive dating."
Then CE / BCE is also inaccurate because it the years are numbered identically in both. This is a valid point against the etymological accuracy of the AD/BC system, but not necessarily a supportive point to CE/BCE in particular.
  • It is simple to change from BC/AD to BCE/CE notation, since the years are numbered identically in both (e.g., 33 BC becomes 33 BCE), Documents with years that do not have AD designation do not need to be changed at all (e.g., 1066 remains 1066 in AD and in CE systems).
I can devise any arbitrary system with any arbitrary name which copies the existing one. This statements merely says that the new system will be absolutely identical to the previous one. But then why this should be in support of changing?
  • Both BCE and CE are used as suffixes, unlike BC/AD where BC is used as a suffix and AD as a prefix. This can be beneficial for computer usage
This happens only in English as, for example, in Italian both a.C. and d.C. are suffix. The same argument could be brought supporting a system which replaces AD (prefix) with AC (suffix).
  • Evidence that AD and BC have not lost their religious significance is the fact that much of the opposition, some of it intense, to switching to usage of CE and BCE has been on religious grounds.
Uh? :?:
Honestly, the only argument that has a meaning is the fourth:
  • "Use of BCE and CE shows sensitivity to those who agree to use the same calendar, but are not Christian."
That is, the true reason behind the usage of this system is that some secular westerners want to remove the traces of their religious heritage from their convention. I don't blame those who want to live in a secular society where the choice of religious not based on rational facts will not influence them, but I don't see why a convention bound to the history of Europe, and thus deeply connected to Christianity, should be changed for absolutely no reason. As a secular person, I can see this not being a tribute to Christianism - just the acknowledgment of its relevance in the history of our civilization.

Herbrand --81.1.120.126 (talk) 02:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter much whether the arguments for and against make any sense, what matters is whether or not the arguments are frequently used by advocates. It would be great if we could find a prominent neutral entity to weigh the arguments, come to a decision, and publish it, so we could quote it. Unfortunately, when it comes to religious issues, there is no entity that most advocates will recognize as neutral. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 04:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
This why we simply must split this article. We must give equal recognition to the view that 2008 CE is just a number that we all agree to use for the current orbit of the earth around the sun, from one aphelion to the next. Common Era is a positive decision not to assert the supremacy of any one religion, which merely happened to have the chair when the music stopped. It is actively designed to be value-free. If anyone wants to read the Christian antecents, the Common Era article can direct readers (in a low key way) to the Anno Domini article. The omission of a detailed repetition here of that article here is not an insult to christians, any more (or less) than it is to Judaism, Islam, Sikhism or the many other religions that have their own traditional calendars and who might all insist by equity that they be listed in full detail too. It is not important and it is barely relevant. It is just an accident of history. --Red King (talk) 18:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
In view of Red King's use of the word "we" in "CE is just a number that we all agree to use for the current orbit of the earth around the sun" and his failure to capitalize "christians" when he does capitalize "Judaism, Islam, Sikhism" I am forced to conclude Red King is an advocate who is pushing his own point of view. Also, it is highly doubtful that "it is actively designed to be value-free." There is a good chance that "common era" was designed by and for Christians about the same time "anno Domini" came into use in the English language, but that "anno Domini" won out. If so, the use of "common era" in the 20th and 21st century is not a new design, but a revival and re-purposing of an old phrase. It would be misleading to supress that word history. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 19:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Well excuse me for upsetting your tender soul with a little mispelling. Your faith must be easily shaken. If you look back, I have sometimes remembered a cap C and sometimes not, but always at first use. Now can we leave off the mudslinging and have a rational discussion. Anno Domini (or Christian Era, if you don't hold with such popish latinisms) is a fulsome explanation of the Xian point of view. [That's X as in ΡΧ = Rex Christus in case you throw another wobbly]. It is not the only view of the world and anyone who cannot abide the idea of an article about a neutral calendar without calling in the Spanish Inquisition is the one who is pushing the POV. "We", in the sense I used it, should be obvious to anyone as referring to mankind in general, irrespective of religious affiliations. If you want to 'reclaim' it for Xianity, that puts you in a tiny minority since the rest of the world uses Common Era to be a value free world standard that tries not to stamp on the toes of people from other great religions and cultures but who still need to act on the world stage. --Red King (talk) 00:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
So your statement should be read as CE is just a word mankind in general agrees to use for the current orbit of the earth around the sun? Um, mankind in general does not agree. English speaking people do not agree. Wikipedia has no policy requiring the use of CE. Therefore the statement does not express a neutral point of view. Also, I suggest you stop making guesses about my faith; so far your guesses aren't very good. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 01:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Did I say any of that? I said that common era is such a word: by bending it to say CE you deliberately introduce the christian era meaning. Mankind in general doesn't much agree on anything, but non-fundamentalist opinion seems content to accept a common standard provided it comes without a load of triumphalist baggage. I am perfectly aware of what the MOS has to say on the subject (and as I'm sure you know it doesn't mandate any system other than to say that editors should not change pre-existing conventions). I accept that none of this stuff can be expressed without a PoV - even trying to do so is itself a PoV - but the article as it stands is greviously biased towards the (christian) religious PoV. Finally I acknowledge that I came close to WP:NPA but if my guess is wrong I really don't understand what you are being so sensitive about. I'm trying to reach an neutral compromise here, so give equal weight to my good faith in doing so. The present article is not neutral and in my view (POV if you must) it won't ever be if we can't get past the pantomime "Oh no it isn't!" "Oh yes it is!" "Oh no it isn't!" "Oh yes it is!" stage. --Red King (talk) 17:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
  • The Common Era article needs to be written as independently as possible from the Anno Domini article, almost as if the AD article does not even exist (aside from linking to it). It needs to explain the origins of the term Common Era, without going into details about things specific to Anno Domini. It also needs to cover the other similar terms that CE can stand for. Common Era & Christian Era seem to have developed concurrently in the same culture for the same purpose, BUT best (tho' incomplete) evidence suggests that CE was first used as an abbreviation for Christian Era. Bear in mind that one of the best chances of getting CE accepted is that Christians can use it too. --JimWae (talk) 03:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Not if it is simply going to replicate the Anno Domini article, replacing all instances of Anno Domini with Christian Era.
I don't believe that the evidence supports the 'common era as christian era' argument - I think that this is a false inference from 'vulgar era'. Yes, in general the historic english word 'vulgar' is transated as the modern english 'common', but the distinction being made was with the regnal system ("in the fifteenth year of the reign of tiberius caesar', 15VicCapIII and so on). I also assert that in modern usage, common era is a religion independent world standard. That it uses the same numbering system as AD is an accident of history: had the medieval advance of islam into europe not halted and reversed, it might just as easily have ended up using the same numbering as the hijri. I accept 100% that the AD article should stress its (somewhat inaccurate) base date as the birth (or conception) of Jesus. But it is incidental to this article and doesn't deserve more than a footnote. --Red King (talk) 17:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Red King that most of the time, when one encounters "CE" or "Common Era" in the modern media, the writer intended it as term with less religious friction than "AD". It isn't at all clear to me what the word history is. If it were possible to find an article sometime around 1880 where some writer said, in effect, lets not impose a Christian era on all the non-Christians in the world, instead, lets use "Common Era", and then show that the use of the term "Common Era" increased steadily from that point, then we could say that the Common Era really is intended to be non-religious. But we can't establish the word history with any certainty. If we could, it would be original research, so we would have to get our conclusions published in a reliable source before stating the conclusion here.
Also, this is an article about an era. The starting date, who chose the starting date, and why, are inherently relevant to any article about an era. Therefore, the "base date as the birth (or conception) of Jesus" deserves more than a footnote. Since the "Anno Domini" article is available, the attention to the base date can be considerably shorter than if that article didn't exist. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 19:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

I've done a cleanup of the article to simplify the opening section and delete unneeded duplication of the AD article. I suspect that it won't meet everyone's approval, but it at least shows what a tight article could look like. I hope you will give it a fair reading. --Red King (talk) 18:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Red King. I think you did a wonderful job here. The less relevant material already covered under Anno Domini can be removed.
And the removal of the text I questioned (in this section above) satisfies WP:NPOV requirements. If this stands, I propose that we go ahead and remove the {{POV}} tag after 3 days.--Endroit (talk) 21:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
  • However, the lede no longer directly gives any information about why some people choose to use CE rather than AD. It does, however, still criticize use of CE. This is unbalanced - both sides should appear in the lede --JimWae (talk) 02:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Also, too much of the stuff relating to AD has been removed. There is no longer any mention that Dionysius used the AD system, no mention of how this year-numbering system became widespread. No mention that AD was not adopted until 15th Century in Spain & Portugal. These are all relevant to CE article. CE article should not be dependent on AD article --JimWae (talk) 02:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
    • I question the need to go into adoption of AD in Spain and Portugal. This article is about an English name for the era; what is the relevance of the Spanish or Portuguese name for the same era? --Gerry Ashton (talk) 03:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Common Era is often criticized as being a "latecomer" (even sometimes as a neo-logism). The fact that AD was adopted so late in some parts of Europe is relevant to the article. How to word it is a separate matter. --JimWae (talk) 04:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
JimWae: you wrote that there is no longer any mention that Dionysius used the AD system; did you mean that was not in the lead anymore? Because the article still mentiones him a little later: "The year numbering system for the Common Era was devised by a monk named Dionysius Exiguus in 525...." --Gerry Ashton (talk) 04:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Unless his use of some other system than CE (such as AD) is mentioned, it is reasonable to infer he used Common Era denotation --JimWae (talk) 04:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Other associations"

Well, we're right back to a bloated fork of the AD article again. So let's try some different weeding. The section "Common Era#Other associations" mentions usage of the term "vulgar era" by a non-notable sect. Crowley is just about notable but this sect is 'post Crowley' and the usage is not contemporaneous with Crowley. We don't accept citations from non-notable sources, so why is this here? --Red King (talk) 20:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:Notability applies to what topics we have articles about, not what sources we use. Sources have to be reliable, not notable. Also, the notability guideline says "These notability guidelines only pertain to the encyclopedic suitability of topics for articles but do not directly limit the content of articles." It is up to the consensus of the editors to decide if a certain passage is worth including.
I think our criteria should be whether a significant number of readers will have come across the term vulgar era in connection with the followers of Crowley and come to Wikipedia to find out more. I don't have an opinion about whether that is likely or not. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 00:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I accept that. Well of course you have me in that I know of no census that will confirm or deny the view that these are nobodies known to nobody but another bunch of nobodies who get a frisson from the myth of satan or worse still are taken in by the lie that "satanic abuse" is any more or less than child abuse impure and simple but with an escape clause. But I still think it deserves nothing more than a footnote. --Red King (talk) 20:42, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Bloated? Fork? --JimWae (talk) 05:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
If the cap fits... --Red King (talk) 20:42, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reference 62

I think reference 62 is a bad reference. It implies that NASA supports CE/BCE nomenclature, which so far as I can see, it doesn't. The reference relates merely to Fred Espanak's view. Granted he's an influential employee of NASA but I don't think he speaks for them. In any case, what he's stating is blindingly obvious; we don't need a reference to assert that an advantege of BCE and CE is that they both follow the year whereas AD doesn't, etc. 82.20.28.142 (talk) 19:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Readers should understand that a publisher, in this case NASA, might or might not fully agree with what they publish when the name of the author of the piece is given. This is a normal convention in written communication; it's part of knowing how to read, and it is the responsibility of the reader to understand that.
The reason for needing a reference is not that it is blindingly obvious. The problem is that various people can and do make all kinds of blindingly obvious statements in this article for or against CE notation. If we go along with that, this article becomes a vehicle for Wikipedia editors to advance their own arguments about CE. We shouldn't do that, even if the argument is true. We should find references to show that others are putting forward the argument. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 20:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Gerry, there is no disclaimer on the page in question that the views are those of Espenak rather than NASA. It would be very easy to assume that NASA endorses CE/BCE and I'm sure many readers will do so. Accordingly we should look for a better reference, and if there are none then pehaps the point should be removed. I accept the second point you are making. 82.20.28.142 (talk) 20:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I will e-mail Mr. Espinak and ask him to clarify whether the page reflects the views of NASA, and that the page be modified to reflect the answer. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 21:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd be interested in any response you get. Some time ago I emailed Espenak about an unrelated matter concerning solar eclipses; I never got a response. Email "blanking" seems all too common these days. I guess the people concerned are "just too busy". 82.20.28.142 (talk) 12:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I received an e-mail from Mr. Espinak notifying me that the web page has been revised. I have removed the reference from one point that it never fully supported, and is irrlevant to now. I left it on another point, but removed a quote that isn't there anymore.

The only remark Mr. Espinak made in the e-mail that isn't on the web page is that, to his knowledge, NASA does not have an official policy on dating conventions. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 20:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I take back my earlier remarks about Espenak not responding to emails. I emailed him at the time of a solar eclipse, so maybe he was deluged with mail. Thanks for making the changes. 82.20.28.142 (talk) 21:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] some stuff

The evidence presented in this article for "common era" as an existing standard rather than as something new devised for political correctness is intellectually dishonest and flawed. Just because a phrase was used in some form in the past does not mean it was any kind of standard in the past. If anything the supposed evidence only more strongly reinforces that those advocating the use of CE/BCE are grasping at straws looking for some kind of historical justification for their modern corruption of the language. 68.207.126.7 (talk) 23:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, but it's notable. There's no way this article will be removed~. We have articles about feces here.142.176.114.174 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:12, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Use AC (After Christ) instead of AD

The most offending term is AD where D is for Domino, Lord, which is offensive to Jews and Muslims and other religions with a "Lord". Especially problematic is when school children asks what Domino means and the teacher must explain that it is not our Lord but somebody elses. The children then can not know what is reffered to when they read or hear the word "Lord".

The term Christ is less controversial, It is simply a guy in another religion. Sure it gives a connection to a certain religion, but one still has a religious connection with the BCE/CE -terms since the era referred to is only common to Jews and Christians.

You can then also easier replace the meaning of the C to something suitable, for example Cipher (latin for zero) which would give you BC/AC (Before Cipher / After Cipher). 83.253.249.46 (talk) 01:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I forgot this was a talk page and accidentally edited out your post. Please forgive me... ZtObOr 01:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum to change the language; it's an encyclopedia. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 02:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arguments supporting BCE/CE are not consistent

If a student asks his teacher why do we start counting at this particular year, it is much more correct to say it is because of certain guy in a certain religion was born that year (although use AC instead of AD to avoid Domino as I argued above). Those opposing have two way of arguing 1) to say that it was a common era of Jews and Christians that started then, or 2) since year zero there is lot of stuff that has become common to the world citizens.

  1. Those who use the first way of arguing doesn't solve the religious connection.
  2. Those who use the second way of arguing, well maybe more and more things become common, but it is more a continues process. There are not more world-community-creating-events around year zero than there are let's say a thousand years later. 83.253.249.46 (talk) 13:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I would say the year 1 was chosen because it was close to the time Jesus was conceived and born. It began as a Christian Era, the Jews didn't use it until it was so widespread that it was too inconvenient to not use it. As stated in reference 63 in the article, for reasons of convenience, "the Christian Era has become the Common Era" (emphasis added), but it didn't start out as a Common Era. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 16:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
The anon editor might also like to read de facto standard. --Red King (talk) 16:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Common sense is sacrificed for a bad attempt to create Religious Neutrality

Confusion is the price as Wikipedians tries to be virtuous

CE/BCE notations might have been used for subsections of society but to most people in the english speaking world it is about counting years Before' or After year zero. There are no eras involved with how we count year in most peoples minds. It is B for before or A for after, instead people are faced with C and E. Probably every English speaking person in the world will need to look up this new abbreviation, and become anoyed and think: why not use existing abbreviations. We don't have to go many years back before we find that CE is not dealt with at all in normal dictionaries.

We have hundreds of years of litterature, which you are neglecting. Why not look around on Wikipedia for how things are written.

So as I suggested earlier on this page, it is better to invent a new meaning to already existing abbreviations, so that people can choose. Religious Neutrality is good, but lets create it in a more sensitive way, rather than forcing the whole english speaking world to relearn. 83.253.253.250 (talk) 14:13, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This talk page is to discuss the article Common Era. It is not to discuss whether BCE/CE notation is a good idea or not. Wikipedia does not care if it is a good idea or not. All that matters is that readers might want to look it up, so we should have an article about it. You said yourself "probably every English speaking person in the world will need to look up this new abbreviation"; that's what this article is for. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 14:32, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Julian or Gregorian?

The Gregorian Calendar was initiated in 1582 and it specified that the new calendar would not take effect until after Thursday, October 4, 1582. The Gregorian Calendar recognizes dates before Friday, October 15, 1582 (the 5th through 14th were omitted) in accordance with the rules of the Julian Calendar. Thus if a date is given before 1582, one can be sure that it is Julian. 1582 and after there is some confusion as many countries adopted the Gregorian Calendar in different years. During these years (roughly ending in 1900) dates are often specified OS or NS (meaning Old Style or New Style). To speak of the year 1AD of the Gregorian Calendar is very non standard as the first year of that calendar is 1582. One might refer to the Proleptic Gregorian calendar if this meaning is truly intended, but I have never seen that need arise and this meaning is certainly not to be assumed. Sean.barton (talk) 21:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The Julian calendar was originally a Roman, not a Christian calendar. Over the millenea many year numbering schemes have been used with it, such as the regnal year of Roman emperors, such as an Annunciation era in an Alexandrian, Coptic, or Ethiopic context, reckoned from 29 August AD 8, the Indiction, or the Era of the Martyrs. Thus, to say year 1 of the Julian calendar could refer to many different years. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 23:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)