Talk:Come on Pilgrim
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[edit] <^>v!!This album is connected!!v<^>
- All song titles serve as redirects to this album, have their own pages, or have been placed at the appropriate disambiguation pages.--Hraefen Talk 19:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] EP?
This isn't an EP, it's a (mini-)album. The catalogue number indicates that it's an album and it charted on the album chart. Where does the idea that it's an EP come from?--Michig (talk) 09:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- From just about every book and online source I've used. To most people, the terms are generally interchangable; there's no strict definition of either. CloudNine (talk) 10:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Come On Pilgrim was regarded as a mini-album by their record label, made number 5 on the indie album chart in the UK (spending 29 weeks in that chart), and is listed as an LP in every source I've seen other than allmusic, including three books. EP's are generally singles with 3-5 tracks - very different to mini-LPs in my experience. If the record label say it's an album, and so did the company compiling the charts, surely it's an album?--Michig (talk) 11:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Could you perhaps give examples or references for this? Most sources stat Surfer Rosa was their debut album. CloudNine (talk) 11:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Well there's Barry Lazell's book and the Rough Guide to rock, which I have referenced in the article. Martin Strong's "The Great Alternative & Indie Discography" lists it as a mini-LP. Colin Larkin's "The Guinness Who's Who of Indie and New Wave Music" lists it as an album. The following also refer to it as an album: - see the Amazon review: "When they first hit the underground scene with this debut album",[1].--Michig (talk) 12:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- What makes Rob O'Connor an reliable source on the Pixies' discography? Both of my books on the Pixies state it was an EP. CloudNine (talk) 12:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- EP's originated (I think) in the 1960s as 7" records with typically 4 tracks, distinguishing them from normal "singles". By the 1980s with singles often released on 12" vinyl, releases with 2 or 3 tracks were generally called 12" singles, but sometimes as EPs if they had 3 tracks. If they had 4 or 5 tracks they were generally called EPs. Releases with 6 or more tracks were generally released as albums or mini-albums. There's no clear cutoff between the two, but anything with 7 or more tracks was generally released as an album. There may be sources saying Come on Pilgrim was an EP, but that doesn't make those sources wrong that say its an album. 4AD and the chart company hold more weight with me than an authors of books written after the fact.--Michig (talk) 12:11, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- I've got 7" records with 3 tracks on which are EP's - EP's and mini-LP's are definitely not the same thing.--Michig (talk) 12:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Do you have any reason why Come On Pilgrim should not be referred to as a mini-LP in this article? I thought using both mini-LP and EP was a reasonable compromise, given that there are sources for both.--Michig (talk) 12:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- What makes Rob O'Connor an reliable source on the Pixies' discography? Both of my books on the Pixies state it was an EP. CloudNine (talk) 12:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Well there's Barry Lazell's book and the Rough Guide to rock, which I have referenced in the article. Martin Strong's "The Great Alternative & Indie Discography" lists it as a mini-LP. Colin Larkin's "The Guinness Who's Who of Indie and New Wave Music" lists it as an album. The following also refer to it as an album: - see the Amazon review: "When they first hit the underground scene with this debut album",[1].--Michig (talk) 12:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Could you perhaps give examples or references for this? Most sources stat Surfer Rosa was their debut album. CloudNine (talk) 11:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Come On Pilgrim was regarded as a mini-album by their record label, made number 5 on the indie album chart in the UK (spending 29 weeks in that chart), and is listed as an LP in every source I've seen other than allmusic, including three books. EP's are generally singles with 3-5 tracks - very different to mini-LPs in my experience. If the record label say it's an album, and so did the company compiling the charts, surely it's an album?--Michig (talk) 11:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
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- CloudNine, what do your sources actually say about the record's format? Does the band refer to it as an EP, or the staff at 4AD? Also, Michig, EPs are somehwat ill-defined; Minor Threat for one had EPs with eight tracks but classified the records were EPs because they didn't really care about format distinctions despite what people told them. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Minor Threat's songs were quite short, so I would guess that's why an 8-track release by them might be an EP - the fact that the Minor Threat EP was on 7" would stop it from being a mini-LP anyway. Martin Strong has made a career of writing (very good) discography books, and he defines 12" EP:"Virtually same as [12" single] but titled like the 7" ep. Playing time over 12 minutes, and could have between 3 and 5 tracks." ; mini-LP:"playing time between 20 and 30 minutes and containing on average 7 tracks. Introduced for early 80s independent market." Yes, EPs are somewhat ill-defined , but at the end of the day if something is released as an EP, then it's an EP. If it's released as a mini-LP then it's a mini-LP. --Michig (talk) 06:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- The source for these definitions, by the way, is: Strong, Martin C. (2002). The Great Rock Discography, 6th edn.. Canongate. ISBN 1-84195-312-1.. I've yet to see any other sources that back up alternative definitions, i.e. to suggest that EP's and mini-LPs are the same thing. The EP article is full of unsourced WP:OR, and shouldn't be relied on.--Michig (talk) 07:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- Frank Black was quoted after the band split as saying "I made 5 records with the Pixies" - this is a clear reference to albums, as there were many more than 5 if EPs such as Gigantic and the Alec Eiffel EPs were included. As I have provided ample sources to justify the change that I made, I intend to restore it unless there are convincing arguments otherwise. I don't think it's reasonable that I should need to gain consensus for a change backed up by reliable sources, but another editor can impose their opinion without demonstrating any consensus.--Michig (talk) 13:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- Records don't necessarily mean studio albums. As I said, I haven't got my Pixies books to hand, but the record has been named both an EP and mini-album. (Surfer Rosa has always been considered their debut studio album). So long as we mention it as being considered a mini-album and EP, I'm fine (perhaps, "the debut release by the American alternative..") It would be nice if we could improve this to featured status though (it is on my to-do list), like I've done with Pixies, Frank Black, Joey Santiago, Dave Lovering, Surfer Rosa, Doolittle, "Monkey Gone to Heaven" and "Bam Thwok". CloudNine (talk) 20:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- I've changed the lead to 'release' rather than EP, which should be neutral enough. I've also changed a couple of other things, e.g. calling Surfer Rosa an album rather than an LP in the context of its CD release. I think the 'EP' issue may be a case of EP meaning something slightly different now than it did in 1987 (before CDs took hold) - at the time of its release an 8 track 12" record lasting over 20 minutes wouldn't have been considered an EP, but in the CD era, the usage of the term may have changed.--Michig (talk) 21:07, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- By the way, it might be a little more difficult to find (contemporary) sources for Come on Pilgrim than for the rest of their releases, as the band's coverage really took off with Surfer Rosa. I used to have a big pile of NME/MM/Sounds from the late 80s, but I think they went in a clear out a few years ago. I only got into the band when I won an early copy of Surfer Rosa in a local radio competition (Francis was doing local radio interviews in those days to drum up interest).--Michig (talk) 21:07, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. However, there should be quite a bit to write on the recording and production (to be honest, I think The Purple Tape should be merged with this article in time, otherwise we'll end up with a strange recording and release sections), and I've a few fanzine reviews from Fool the World (a great Pixies book); Alec Eiffel is quite a useful source as well. I'm happy with the change and glad we've come to a useful compromise. CloudNine (talk) 22:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- Records don't necessarily mean studio albums. As I said, I haven't got my Pixies books to hand, but the record has been named both an EP and mini-album. (Surfer Rosa has always been considered their debut studio album). So long as we mention it as being considered a mini-album and EP, I'm fine (perhaps, "the debut release by the American alternative..") It would be nice if we could improve this to featured status though (it is on my to-do list), like I've done with Pixies, Frank Black, Joey Santiago, Dave Lovering, Surfer Rosa, Doolittle, "Monkey Gone to Heaven" and "Bam Thwok". CloudNine (talk) 20:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- Frank Black was quoted after the band split as saying "I made 5 records with the Pixies" - this is a clear reference to albums, as there were many more than 5 if EPs such as Gigantic and the Alec Eiffel EPs were included. As I have provided ample sources to justify the change that I made, I intend to restore it unless there are convincing arguments otherwise. I don't think it's reasonable that I should need to gain consensus for a change backed up by reliable sources, but another editor can impose their opinion without demonstrating any consensus.--Michig (talk) 13:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- CloudNine, what do your sources actually say about the record's format? Does the band refer to it as an EP, or the staff at 4AD? Also, Michig, EPs are somehwat ill-defined; Minor Threat for one had EPs with eight tracks but classified the records were EPs because they didn't really care about format distinctions despite what people told them. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
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