Talk:Combination Game
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[edit] Combination Game
A distinction should perhaps be made between the "types" of combination games that evolved during the 1870s. Alcock highlights the "passing on" of the Sheffield FA team as being the first evidence of combination but this appears to have been more of a long ball approach (suited to the peculiar offside system of Sheffield rules which allowed poaching or sneaking). F.J. Wall's opposing claim in favour of the Royal Engineers once more appears to have been a rudimentary style which did not win favour amongst the London clubs (it is the establishment of the London Corinthians in 1882 which brings the passing game to the metropolis in response to Scotland's domination at international level). The style adopted by the Royal Engineers also appears to date from the early 1870s, the same time as Queen's Park FC was creating the short passing game.
A number of points could be made for Scotland's claim - The short passing game was created by Queen's Park and became a general Scottish style due to their influence north of the border. All eleven Scotland players from the first official international were members of the Queen's Park club. On average the Scotland players were two stones lighter then their English opponents and they therefore had to combine in pairs in order to counteract England's superior physical presence on the field. The comments regarding Scottish players of the 1860s and the Scottish players from the unofficial internationals are of no significance - the short passing game starts with Queen's Park around 1872 as the club faced up to the challenges of the FA Cup tie against Wanderers and the international match later in the year. The London based Scots who played in the unofficial internationals (with perhaps the exception of Smith, a Queen's Park member) would have played the London Association's "dribbling" type game within the 1-1-8 formation. Indeed one of the "Scottish" players later turned out for England in the first official international! The short passing game starts through Queen's Park and the 2-2-6 formation. The idea of the Queen's players having an advantage because they knew each other very well is exceptionally important to the argument. There is evidence that the players trained and played internal matches regularly and experimented with rules and tactics.
In response to the critics who place the beginning of Scotland's international success at 1876 (and attribute this as the start of a Scottish passing game) there are a few missing factors. 1) the scientific style of the short passing game had to evolve but more importantly the playing rules had to evolve - heavy charging and rough tactics was very much part and parcel of the 1870s game. This doesn't mean however that the passing game was not being played north of the border prior to 1876, just that it was more difficult for a passing game to overcome brute force tactics. 2) In the second official international (1873) Queen's Park could only afford to send down eight players (the Scottish FA had not yet been formed). London based Scots, headed by Lord Kinnaird, who played the London Association style of game were brought in which broke up the "team" approach (Lord Kinnaird for example was a physical presence on the field and a lover of hacking - he hardly would have fitted into a team trying to pass the ball in measured moves!). The following year (1874) Scotland drops the London based Scots and begins the period of international domination. Also look at the results of Queen's Park and other Scottish clubs against English teams during the 1870s period as well as that of the select teams, in particular Glasgow v Sheffield and London. How could the short passing game have grown into a general "Scottish style" by the mid to late 1870s if it had not existed a few years earlier? An explanation has also to be given for the overwhelming number of Scottish players who are recruited south of the border. If there had been a mixing of ideas by the mid 1870s or even the early 1880s why were so many of the "Scotch Professors" recruited by English teams? - 230 Scottish professionals registered with English clubs in 1890, seven of the Preston "Invincibles" team were Scottish born (with an eighth, England international John Goodall, born of Scottish parents), all eleven players in the first ever Liverpool team born in Scotland etc, etc, etc.
The overseas experience also backs up this notion of a distinctive and intricate Scottish short passing game in contrast with a more physical English style of passing game even as late as the early 20th century - the Scottish style is picked up by the Austrians, Hungarians, Argentinians and Uruguayans in particular and used as a basis for their increasing success on the football field.
[edit] Question
thank you for this interesting info. What is the earliest contemporary evidence for short passing in Scotland (rather than tradition)? thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thousandsofyears (talk • contribs) 13:52:05, August 19, 2007 (UTC).
[edit] further info
Walter Arnott, himself a famous Scottish internationalist and Queen’s Park player of the 1880s and 1890s, wrote an account of the first international match of 1872 (he was an eye witness to the event). The account was published in Association Football and the Men who made it, London 1906. An audio version of the text, read by an actor, is also used within an exhibition devoted to the first international match which features at the Scottish Football Museum at Hampden Park.
“The English team was by far the heavier one. Their forwards played an individual game, and were much faster than those on the Scotch side, whose forward work was done in pairs. What a treat it was to see Clegg or Ottaway getting their ball near their own goal, and making off at a great pace down the field, and only being robbed of it by someone in the last line of the Scotch defence! Then, again, to watch the great Jamie Weir – the prince of dribblers – and his partner, by splendid combination play rushing down the wing and centring the ball with great accuracy right into the goal-mouth”
North British Daily Mail - 2nd December 1872
"The Scotch team, though not comprising so many brilliant players as were in the English eleven, worked from first to last well together through knowing each other's play." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.133.11.58 (talk) 14:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
This quotation when linked with Arnott's description makes much more sense.
To understand how a distinctive playing style could so quickly become a Scottish style we need to properly understand the significance of Queen’s Park FC as the original and prime instigator of the game in Scotland. Queen’s Park is described by one historian as the MCC or Royal and Ancient Club of Scottish football during the formative years of the Association game north of the border.
During the early 1870s they impose their own rules on other clubs and actually refuse on one occasion to play a return match against a club from Airdire in 1871 because they decided to drop the use of “hands” from their rules when Airdrie wanted to continue with this rule. They take charge of the Scotland international team for 1872 and 1873, are instrumental in establishing the Scottish FA in 1873 and maintain a strong influence over that body for the remainder of the 19th Century. They play missionary games across Scotland and in northern England and Ireland. In an early match of 1872 they play a Vale of Leven side and actually stop the game at intervals to explain the rules etc (Vale of Leven go on to become an early challenger to Queen’s within Scottish football and win the Scottish FA Cup three years in succession from 1877 to 1879). They also play an exhibition match in Edinburgh in 1873 which leads to the formation of the Edinburgh FA. Indeed their cancellation of an exhibition match in the Scottish Borders because of an FA Cup tie enabled the rugby game to take hold there instead (this remains the only part of Scotland where club rugby is more popular than football).
William McGregor, the Father of the Football League also pays tribute to the club (Book of Football, London, 1906)
“If I were asked to specify which club in Association football had done most to inculcate and foster a love of the Association game, I should answer most unhesitatingly, Queen’s Park. They were the club which introduced the Association game to Glasgow, their origin dating from 1867. They founded the Scottish Football Association; from their own ranks they found the opposition to England in the first international between the two countries, and their missionary visits to the Midlands and Lancashire did much to create a true love for Association football in those districts and also to give a tone and polish to local football effort.
They were the first club to introduce really scientific methods into the game. Their football was as perfect and polished as football has ever been played at a time when most clubs were content with merely scrambling after the ball. What they did is in danger of being forgotten, because many modern footballers seem to be quite convinced that the exponents of the game who preceded them were not of much account. Therein they are mistaken.”
An important point relates to the relative failure of a combination game to take hold in London before the formation of the Corinthians in 1882 and once again Queen's Park's early influence is mentioned. This is partly explained in the following passage taken from "Corinthians and Cricketers", London 1957 pp25-26.
"It would not be wrong to claim for Queen's Park the building of Scottish football almost single-handed.... It has wielded a profound influence in fashioning the technique of the game, and its development of scientific passing and cohesion between the half-backs and the forwards as a counter to the traditional dribbling and individuality...During those barren years England's teams consisted of amateur players from many different clubs...who had to combine their individuality without any pre-match knowledge of each other's play...Not surprisingly, England failed to beat an enemy nurtured on scientific combination. This position might have have continued much longer until the flood tide of professionalism had its inevitable effect; but one of the most industrious and enthusiastic of the game's earliest legislators, N. Lane ('Pa') Jackson, who was then honourary assistant secretary of The Football Association, sought a more immediate solution. 'At that period', he has recorded for us in his autobiography, Sporting Days and Sporting Ways, 'public school and university men provided most of the players for the English side, so I thought that by giving them plenty of practice together they would acquire a certain measure of combination.'
With due respect to Royal Engineers and Sheffield, Queen's Park's "scientific" playing style, dating from 1872, was the driving force in the development of the combination game and led to the creation of the Corinthians in the amateur south while the Scotch Professors brought the Scottish style to the midlands and north. There is a wealth of information on the role of Queen's from a wide variety of sources but the evidence for the Royal Engineers and Sheffield tends to come from the individual contributions of C.W. Alcock and F.J. Wall (admittedly they are prominent men from the FA and should be noted but are there contemporary sources to confirm their views?).
Finally, as the short passing game begins in 1872 with one club side (Queen's Park) which becomes incredibly influential the comments about Scottish players in England during the 1860s is pointless as it predates the new style of game. Indeed there were a number of Anglo Scots playing Association football in London during the 1860s and 1870s but their playing ethos would naturally be the individualistic style of the London Association game. Lord Kinnaird is the best example of this - the short passing game of Queen's Park would have been alien to him and his Wanderers' team mates. The "unofficial" internationals of 1870 - 1872 were under the control of the FA and the players (all living in the London area) were hand picked by that organisation and would have played the London dribbling style - unless there is evidence to say otherwise. This is why they were never acknowledged as proper internationals - it was a series of London FA controlled games - the nationality of a number of the Scots was very dubious and one of the "Scots" later played for England in the first official international. The main point I am making here is that "playing ethos" can go beyond nationality. Young aristocratic Scots educated at Eton and playing for an Old Boys team like the Old Etonians, just like Kinnaird, would play an individualistic style of game. Back in Scotland the early converts to the Association game learned from the Queen's Park short passing style thus creating a Scottish style. This ethos would go south to English clubs via the Scotch professors or would be emulated by the Corinthians.
[edit] 1873 international
Two of the three "Anglo Scots" in this match, which took place on 8th March 1873, were from the Royal Engineers (H. W. Rennie Tailyour and J. E. Blackburn) - the other being A.F. Kinnaird of the Wanderers. Richard Robinson's "History of The Queen's Park Football Club", which was written to celebrate the club's 50th anniversary in 1917 gives the reason for Scotland's defeat in 1873 -
"The English adopted the Scottish formation in the return international, played in London on 8th March, 1873, which the Saxons won by four goals to two. In this latter game the combination and knowledge of each other which characterised the play of the Queen's Park in the 1872 game were wholly destroyed, and this was in a great measure the cause of the loss of this game. Only seven Queen's Park players took part in it... Why these Scots in England were played it is now difficult to understand, seeing that the match was under the control of the Queen's Park, who had arranged the first international and the return... It may have been down to the expense, and most probably was... Be that as it may, the combination of the whole team was ruined. The back divisions did not understand what the forwards were about, and the two great Queen's Park players in the attack placed no reliance, or could place none, on the outsiders, who had learned their style of play in England, save Gibb, and played accordingly."
There is an interesting point here which relates to the Royal Engineers - two of the players took part in this match for Scotland and were evidently not acquainted at that time with the Queen's Park style of combination. There is no reason to doubt that the Queen's Park players continued with their style of passing game, carrying on from the international of November 1872, although at great disadvantage due to the Anglo Scots - could the four Royal Engineers players (two played with Scotland and two with England) have taken this idea back to their own team or do the early examples of the Engineers' combination game pre-date 8th March 1873? Certainly the 1873 tour of the north took place in late December, over a year after the first international and nine months after the second. In any case there is, at the very least, firm evidence of the Scottish style beginning in 1872, with an explanation for the defeat of 1873, and continuing on with the victory of 1874.
You mention that the lack of a victory by Scotland in 1872, 1873 and 1875 explains the lack of combination (which is in conflict with the evidence provided on this page). I mentioned earlier that the rudimentary rules and physical style of the 1870s game allowed for heavy charging and would make it difficult for combination to succeed right from the off, but that combination did indeed exist. Scotland also lost the 1879 international match to England, just one year after having won the annual match by 7 goals to 2 - the reason for this was not down to the fact that combination was not being played by the Scottish team - it was down to the playing rules and tactics employed during the match. The English throw in was used in this match (a one handed hurl in any direction) which meant that the ball could be propelled from midfield right into the heart of the goal mouth. The Scottish throw in was two hands behind the head as it is today but with the ball entering the field at a right angle to the touch line (similar in this respect to rugby) which greatly limited the distance and direction. The Scots were not used to, and could therefore not adjust to, the one handed hurl and lost a number of goals because of this. You need to factor in the importance of physical strength, power and speed during an age where charging down opponents was part and parcel of the game. Contemporary accounts often note that Scottish teams are smaller and lighter, compared with English opponents, because weight and strength were very much part of the 1870s game. Combination had to take place within a rudimentary game and would only improve as the rules themselves improved enabling skill and science to perservere over power and brawn.
[edit] Proposed edit to Scotland section
I have pieced together a more accurate account of Scotland's role in the combination game, based largely upon the facts and the argument outlined above. If there is no objection then I will amend the section on Scotland, using the revised account, and will be happy to discuss and amend any points within the submitted text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.136.2.77 (talk) 14:44, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Royal Engineers entry
I have altered the R.Engineers part of this article. You clearly know the Scottish story better than anyone (and must have the best job in Scotland????), so I will not alter that. It seems to me that most of the evidence for combination is retrospective (often many years) and for that reason I have used evidence from a contemporary account. I have also added a bit to the public schools part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Footballwecan80 (talk • contribs) 19:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Retrospective accounts
I understand the point about retrospective comments although prominent football men like F.J. Wall and Walter Arnott have considerable weight behind their comments, especially if they were eye witnesses to the events. I think that because of this they need to be taken seriously. In my experience newspaper reports on early games tend to be exceptionally vague and often unclear in terms of terminology which is understandable as football journalism of course was still very much in its infancy. Richard Robinson's account, which I have quoted, is also quite important and I think that it should be considered because his history of Queen's Park appears to have been methodically researched and is well written - he refers to having interviewed founder members of the club who were still alive and had full access to the club's minute books and correspondance. I think there is a case where possible to consider as wide a range of evidence as possible in order to build up a picture rather than relying solely on contemporary accounts (although contemporary accounts clearly should be central and have most weight). For me this has often meant asking a lot of questions!. The Anglo Scots for example were dropped for the 1874, 1875 and subsequent internationals (although players like Kinnaird and Renny-Tailyour were clearly top footballers in England at the time). Why did this happen? Robinson's point that a difference in playing styles between home based players and Anglo Scots during this period makes sense and should therefore be considered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.139.40.143 (talk) 18:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Sheffield
I have moved Sheffield up on this page as I think there is their role early role is undisputed in the development of the game? Does Alcock give a date or say anything more about the Sheffield contribution to the passing game? thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Footballwecan80 (talk • contribs) 12:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Spreading the game
I propose a new page on spreading the game to different countries (instead of the section at the bottom of the page). I think this would be better because most of this happened in the 1880s (later than the early combination game) and is therefore a separate issue? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Footballwecan80 (talk • contribs) 12:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Contemporary Account of Passing in 1872 International match
The "Graphic Newspaper" (described on the front cover as "an illustrated weekly newspaper") which is dated Saturday 14th December 1872, provides an article on the first international match as well as providing the very famous series of sketches which are the only images that exist from the historic first encounter between Scotland and England. The article conclusively states that,
"Individual skill was generally on England's side, the dribbling of Kirke Smith, Brockbank, and Ottaway being very fine, while Welch, half-back, showed himself a safe and good kick. The Southrons, however, did not play to each other so well as their opponents, who seem to be adepts in passing the ball."
I will add this to the section on Scotland - it might be wise at some point for someone to edit the section on the Royal Engineers which bases part of its arguement on the lack of any reference of passing during the first international match (based upon the Scotsman newspaper article). The eyewitness account of Walter Arnott and the account from the Graphic both give conclusive information to the contrary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.133.30.139 (talk) 14:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
