Talk:Comanche

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View comments (edit) In need of minor cleanup and wording enhancements. Lacks illustrations and general copyedit. Phaedriel - 12 Feb 06 The photo of the Comanche camp is identical with the "Arapaho camp"-photo in the Arapaho-article. 217.184.142.207 22:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

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	The following comments have been left for this page: In need of minor cleanup and wording enhancements. Lacks illustrations and general copyedit. Phaedriel - 12 Feb 06 The photo of the Comanche camp is identical with the "Arapaho camp"-photo in the Arapaho-article. 217.184.142.207 22:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC) (edit)

Comanche was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

^{Reviewed version: August 13, 2006}

ATTN: The picture depicting a "comanche camp" appears also on the Arapaho page ... where it depicts an "arapaho camp". conflicting sources. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ArapahoCamp_1868.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Comanchecamp.jpg

I have sent an email trying to determine the correct tribe. Hopefully we can sort this out. Rmhermen (talk) 04:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

1 Feedback from peer review
2 Misc
3 Copyright?
4 Article Size
5 Social Order
6 Big Killer Cannibal Owl! Oh no!
7 Comanche language
8 Trimming
9 get more things on this website
10 Comanche indians
11 GA status
12 Origin
13 "related groups" info removed from infobox
14 Vandalism of Bibliography

[edit] Feedback from peer review

I am placing this at the top for ease of access: please move to the end and remove this statement if you feel the deviation from normal organization is insufficiently warranted.

First feedback addresses somethign which has been in the back of my mind for some time - the article is mostly historical in nature, with the Culture section addressing mostly past practice. My thought: Create a new article Comanche nation and move content which is post-Comanche treaty of 1835 there. [1] KillerChihuahua 14:13, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Misc

i looking for a flag of Comanche please contact me at : crackwindobe@voila.fr I looking for a web site on comanche homes Please tell me by posting it

i think this page needs to be cleaned up, ans wikified. --Zephirum 12:14, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this was intentional, but the Arapaho article and this (Comanche) article use the same picture to showcase their respective villages! "Arapaho camp, 1868", and "Comanche camp, c. 1870." Which camp is it? --errantmind 14:44, 1 August 2007 (CST)

The information copied from the encyclopaedia needs to be deleted. This article at a quarter of what it is now would be too long. Jockmonkey 11:37, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. Jockmonkey - we could use the help! KillerChihuahua 19:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

== Dates ==help

It is a little worrying that the article begins with the statement "The Comanches emerged as a distinct group shortly before 1700..." and yet the Timeline starts at 1500. The 1700 date seems to be borne out by some other sources I found, but I am not confident enough to change anything. Someone with some subject knowledge needs to address. - Matt 29-Sep-05

This is certainly problematic. Going only by the information available here, it seems to me that the Shoshone divided around 1500, with the Comanche splitting from the Shoshone people living along the upper Platte River around 1680. If this is the case, the timeline should be edited to refer to "Shoshone" rather than "Comanche" before 1680, and perhaps even moved to the Shoshone article, or an article dealing with that specific Shoshone group. Some sort of confirmation would be good.... TheMadBaron 21:04, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright?

I am getting increasingly worried that large chunks of this seem to be virtually identical to other sources, especially

http://www.tolatsga.org/ComancheOne.html
http://www.dickshovel.com/ComancheTwo.html
http://www.dickshovel.com/ComancheThree.html

which is clearly marked copyright.

[edit] Article Size

At 109 kilobytes, this article is way too long. I propose moving the entire history section to a new article (Comanche History, or similar), leaving only the timeline here. Good idea? TheMadBaron 09:27, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Concur. I propose having a brief history here, with link to Comanche History. I was thinking of that myself last time I was able to get on - glad you are thinking along the same lines. KillerChihuahua 12:49, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, created Comanche History, which is also too long, so please go edit. Elements of the Bibliography should probably also be moved. Now, howabout we replace that timeline with a link to [2]? TheMadBaron 18:56, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Um, might not be such a good idea since the external link you reference no longer exists (or does not exist at the time of this post, anyway.) Create Comanche History Timeline, perhaps? There is precedent. KillerChihuahua 15:30, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

The link is working fine now. FWIW, I think having a seperate history and a seperate history timeline would be excessive. TheMadBaron 20:31, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, second thoughts, it would be nice to get that timeline out of this article, and it would be a shame to lose it. What's the precedent? TheMadBaron 01:29, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, there are lots of examples, such as Haiti Timeline which is part of Category:History of Haiti, which also includes History of Haiti as well as over a dozen other articles. The Comanche were much smaller, of course, but we could still move the darn timeline. Afghanistan is another good example of having a country article, a history article, and a timeline article. Afghanistan, tho, has about 80 separate timelines - month by month since 2000, and divided by years before that. I can give more examples if you want - the two I listed here are countries, but there are others, such as the Early Nazi Timeline which is listed for cleanup, btw. Anyway, I moved the Comanche Timeline (no consistency on naming these things so Move to Timeline of Comanche History if you want, and add redirect from Comanche History) KillerChihuahua 15:01, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

On second thought, seeking input. Should we call the darn thing:

Comanche History Timeline
Timeline of Comanche History
Comanche Timeline (current name)

would love second opinion. Again, not much consistency here across WP. KillerChihuahua 15:06, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Social Order

Extracted from: Index -> Americas -> North America -> North American Natives -> Comanches

http://www2.rz.hu-berlin.de/

COMANCHES (North-American Natives)

Wallace and Hoebel (1952:p128)[1][39] state that small children play ?chief? choosing wives. ?The more precocious dallied in sexual experimentation. ?One day we played at being married. I did my best to make a baby with my wife?, said Post Oak Jim?. ?Although youngsters were not subject to moral censure for sexual activity, it was encouraged. Boys, during the period of their preadolescent gang life, ignored the girls to a great degree?. At adolescence, when they become ?positively bashful?, this changes: the girls visit the boys. Linton (1945:p75)[2][40] states the following: ?Sexual play between children began at an early age, and was carried out on quite freely as long as the two children were not brother and sister. The Comanche paid no attention to virginity; they took these childhood relations more or less for granted?. Further (p138, 156), free masturbation would decline after acquisition of the loin cloth, the children would ?imitate? adult modesty. Much clandestine sex play, both heterosexual and homosexual, occurred; children would imitate adult obscenity. Children?s behaviour indicated a knowledge of the relation between copulation and conception (p138).

?Generally girls married young, sometimes even before puberty. Colonel Richard I. Dodge wrote of attending a Plains Indian dance where the ?belles of the evening? were ?two little girls of about ten years old, who, he believed, where already beginning ?to feel matrimonial hankerings?. One Comanche chief, Sanaco, he declared, had as a wife ?a pretty little maid of about ten years, of whom he was very fond?. Chief Sanaco may, or may not, have had sexual relations with his ten-year-old bride. To have done so would not have been unheard-of, as will be apparent later. [?] [Berlandier] entrusted to his journal the method by which an older Comanche husband prepared a child wife for future sexual relations. The warrior purchased the little girl for a horse or a mule when she was seven or eight years old. The child continued to reside with her parents for the time being. When she was nine or ten, her husband began coming to her father?s lodge to sleep with her, without attempting to initiate intercourse. For a long time, on each occasion fist greasing his fingers, he masturbated her, using one finger then two, ?in order to dilate the uterus?. When at last his two fingers entered her easily, he considered the child ready to take up her wifely duties and brought her home with him to his lodge[3]?[4].

Janssen, D. F., Growing Up Sexually. VolumeI. World Reference Atlas. 0.2 ed. 2004. Berlin: Magnus Hirschfeld Archive for Sexology

[1][39] Wallace, E. & Hoebel, E. A. (1952) The Comanches: Lords of the South Plains. Norman: University of Oklahoma

[2][40] Linton, R. (1945) The Comanche, in Kardiner, A. (Ed.) The Psychological Frontiers of Society. New York: ColombiaUniversity Press. 1956 reprint, p47-80

[3] Berlandier, Indians of Texas, 61, n.56 [orig. footnote]

[4]Noyes, S. (1993) Los Comanches: The Horse People, 1751-1845. Albuquerque University of New Mexico, p94, 219

Um, this is a little dated isn't it? KillerChihuahua^?!? 19:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Big Killer Cannibal Owl! Oh no!

I namechecked the Mupitz in the growing up portion. I recall stories my grandmother and hutsi'i would tell me about the big dark terror that would eat you if you left the house at night. I never put two and two together on it meaning owl at all, either! Surprisingly, there were enough big freakin' owls up by lawton that it was reinforced and I was blanche-white in fear of this big flapping beast, hunched over and red-eyed. Whoooooo, scary! (Actually, forgive me for joking about it, heh... I do NOT want to get eaten) --_Alex¯^Jon 07:34, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh excellent, I was wondering about the Big Killer Cannibal Owl. KillerChihuahua 15:28, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

The pia mupitsi is a proper legend in the comanche lore as I remember, but to clarify from what my grandmother was telling me, the more proper bogeyman of comanche legend was the mupits, a giant hairy man who was afraid of water. That's all I know, though, so it is not as fleshed out as the killer cannibal owl. Which still freaks me out. -- (Also known as Alex-jon)

Please, no original research. Use published sources. See Wikipedia:Attribution. --Bejnar 19:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comanche language

Should we split off the Comanche language to another article, like Kiowa language? KillerChihuahua 16:57, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing.... TheMadBaron 20:47, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Done it. TheMadBaron 01:27, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Trimming

As this article is overlength, when editing, try to trim wherever possible.

Oh and btw, it's good to see you back, Matt - I really wish you would register, you're a great editor. Please post why you don't want to on my talk page? KillerChihuahua 13:38, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I am just a terrible fiddler. Most of my edits involve taking out commas and then putting them back in again with little net gain. I don't register because I am not keen on other users being able to access a complete list of all the edits I have ever made. It's not a big deal, just a privacy thing.

It's difficult to know how to trim this article as there seems to be little repetition or waffle. I don't find it over-long, but perhaps the culture could be summarised, and a separate "Comanche culture" article created to contain the full text. I don't feel strongly enough about it to do this, however. Matt 16:43, 10 November 2005 (UTC).

Actually, I would like less trimming and more spin-offs, like Comanche language above. --Bejnar 21:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] get more things on this website

You need to put in info about housing, kids, familys, and stuff like that .I look at this all the time and never can find this. Please do it, lots of people look on this website.

You can find information on all of those subjects on the main article page Comanche. Please see the Culture section. KillerChihuahua 19:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Is there a possibility of adding more regarding spirituality? If there has already been this disussion please forgive me. 74.60.110.192 21:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you research (library not original) and write an article on Comache religion. Then you could link from here using Template:Main, --Bejnar 21:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comanche indians

I need a web page on the Comanche's homes

i need a web page on Comanche homes,please list the web site if you find one THANKS I'm looking for the web page.

See Comanche#Habitation. TheMadBaron 22:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC

[edit] GA status

First, a side note; this article is rated as A-class by its project, but A-class is above Good Article on the assessment scale. I think it has the core of and could be FA with some work. This article currently needs work to get to GA status and is on hold for 7 days for these reasons: lead is too short and the second paragraph forks into a discussion of word origin--the lead should summarize the article, for a 37k article there are too few wiki links, the bibliography is great but there are no footnotes-these should be in cite php format, section headings should not have the name of the article ("History" is fine without Comanche), alphabetize categories and interwiki links (I did this for you). Rlevse 22:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Failed GA, no action taken by editors. Rlevse 12:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin

I changed the map legend from pre-contact to c. 1750, since the available evidence is that they did not enter the southern great plains from the north until about 1700. See quote below summarizing origin, from Flores, Dan (September 1991) "Bison Ecology and Bison Diplomacy: The Southern Plains from 1800 to 1850" The Journal of American History 78(2): pp. 465-485, pp. 467-8. --Bejnar 16:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

At the beginning of the nineteenth century, the dominant groups on the Southern Plains were the two major divisions of the Comanches: the Texas Comanches, primarily Kotsotekas, and the great New Mexico division, spread across the country from the Liano Estacado Escarpment west to the foothills of the Sangre dc Cristo Mountains, and composed of Yamparika and Jupe bands that only recently had replaced the Apaches on the High Plains. The Comanches’ drive to the south from their original homelands in what is now southwestern Wyoming and northwestern Colorado was a part of the original tribal adjustments to the coming of horse technology to the Great Plains. There is reason to believe that the Eastern Shoshones, from whom the Comanches were derived before achieving a different identity on the Southern Plains, were one of the first intermountain tribes of historic times to push onto the Plains. Perhaps as early as 1500 the proto-Comanches were hunting bison and using dog power to haul their mountain-adapted four-pole tipis east of the Laramie Mountains. Evidently they moved in response to a wetter time on the Central Plains and the larger bison concentrations there.

These early Shoshonean hunters may not have spent more than three or four generations among the thronging Plains bison herds, for by the late seventeenth century they had been pushed back into the mountains and the sagebrush deserts by tribes newly armed with European guns moving westward from the region around the Great Lakes. If so, they were among a complex of tribes southwest of the lakes that over the next two centuries would be displaced by a massive Siouan drive to the west, an imperial expansion for domination of the prize buffalo range of the Northern Plains. and a wedge that sent ripples of tribal displacement across the Plains.

Among the historic tribes, the people who became Comanches thus may have shared with the Apaches and, if linguistic arguments are correct, probably with the Kiowas the longest familiarity with a bison-hunting life-style. Pressed back toward the mountains as Shoshones, they thus turned in a different direction and emerged from the passes through the Front Range as the same people but bearing a new name given them by the Utes: Komantcia. They still lacked guns but now began their intimate association with the one animal, aside from the bison, inextricably linked with Plains life. The Comanches began acquiring horses from the Utes within a decade or so after the Pueblo Revolt of 1680 sent horses and horse culture diffusing in all directions from New Mexico. Thus were born the “hyper-Indians,” as William Brandon has called the Plains people.

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 16:48, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism of Bibliography

A vandal (71.125.199.89 on 15 Oct '07 at 22:39) erased the bibliography, which I corrected: if that is the reason for the notice at the top of the article that there are no references for the article, then that can be removed now. Richiar (talk) 02:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)