Talk:Columbus Day

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[edit] Old discussion

I change the mestizo note because:

The dia de la raza was introduced in Argentina, because the govermment was trying to recognize the indians in the new country full of European imigrants in the beggining of the 20th century, Not because of a new race (besides there are not such thing as a mestizo race. Tho Mexico and many countries in the Americas have a majority of mixed people.


While I can not disagree with any of the content or wording of any one part of this article, taken as a whole I did not think it met the NPOV guideline. The high proportion of text given to the opposition view (Columbus Day as a form of oppression) gives that viewpoint credence out of proportion to the actual usage. I'm all for discussing the controversy, but only in proportion. That said, I'm not happy yet with my own attempt to achieve balance. Please help. Rossami 17:58, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I totally agree. It is still very POV, and the opposition section is longer than the main section. That is a problem.


I can't agree that Columbus Day is an american holiday. Columbus Day, or october 12 is the day every nation in the Americas celebrates the discovery of the New World (note that Columbus didn't arrive first to the US, but to other caribbean and latin american countries). The article is way too US- "American", it should be edited so that it can be used as both a page talking about columbus day and the discovery of America (read the Americas..etc..)

User:Cjrs 79

I reinserted the quote from Ward Churchill because it adds important content. I appreciate Rossami's concern about balance. I believe that the sollution to the problem of imbalance is to add more content, not delete useful content. Perhaps someone else can add more imormation about the history of Columbus day or its role in celebrating Italian-American culture in the USA, for example. We must have faith that balance will come with time, as long as NPOV and useful content are respected. Slrubenstein

[edit] Italian-American Pride??

I live near a heavily populated Italian-American neighborhood and know many Americans of Italian descent (I myself am 1/2 Italian). None of them/us care about Columbus! The article almost sounds like some strange stereotype, as if every American with Italian blood feels some great pride for Columbus. It's very strange.

  • I could not disagree more, I travel frequently to Italy and the USA, I have many personal and professional relationships with both native Italians and Italian-Americans, I have yet to find one that doesn't admire and honor Columbus. Cristoforo Colombo is deep in the hearts of the majority of Italians.--Calgvla 07:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Calgvla. Italian-Americans and Spanish folks consider Columbus a hero. --Jack 16:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Columbus day should also be about Hispanic Pride, Especially to Hispanic-Americans. Even though it is unknown the if CC genetic background is from Spain or Italy, it should be about LATIN (for those ppl who don't know Italians are also Latins) pride altogether.

[edit] Many?

In Hispanic America this day is widely ignored, and there are no specific of special celebrations of this day. Also, I never heard the term "Dia de la Raza" in the spanish speaking countries, and there is no such thing in portuguese as well (Im from Brazil). Also, the dates the article cites are almost 100 years old and do not represent the peoples attitudes toward this day. At least in Brazil, there is no holiday to honor the day Columbus discovered America.LtDoc 02:33, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

According to Spanish Wikipedia, this date is official at least in 4 Hispanic American countries:
Uruguay,as "Día de las Américas", since 1915.
Venezuela, as "Día de la Raza" from 1921 to 2002, when President Hugo Chávez change the name to "Día de la Resistencia Indígena".
Chile, as "Dia de la Raza" from 1923 to 2000. President Ricardo Lagos renamed it as "Día del Descubrimiento de Dos Mundos".
Mexico, since 1928 as "Día de la Raza".
--Menah the Great 20:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Brazil is not South America. There are many other places in S. America and Central America. They speak Spanish. Maybe you've heard of it. A Google search shows 280,000 for Dia de la Raza, along with happenings in many places.
Not taking sides but a question would be, are they celebrating Columbus day or something else on that day? "Día de la Resistencia Indígena" I am I right to interpret this as Day of the Indigenous Resistance? Wouldnt think not be celebrating Columbus landing but the fighting of the Indigenous people against him? --NuclearZer0 18:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Your translation is correct. However, if I'm not wrong the celebration is the same as before the name changing. Just take it as another populist action of Chávez but without any real significance.--Menah the Great 12:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Day off in Public Schools?

I removed the sentence about most public schools not having Columbus day off. I couldn't find any definitive proof of this online and a casual survey of a number of people I know around the country showed that all of them always had Columbus day off from public (and private) schools. clintecker@alumni.purdue.edu 10:09, 10 Oct 2005 (EST)

This tends to be more true in the Eastern and Midwestern US, due to the larger Italian-American population, than the Western US.

Sam- Thats true we never get that day off in the westcoastChild Unit Sam 03:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

== When was Columbus Day first celebrated in USA?== The article gives the impression that the first celebrations were in several states, and that FDR first instituted the national holiday. The Library of Congress does not agree with this.

From http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/today/oct12.html

The 400th anniversary of the event, however, inspired the first official Columbus Day holiday in the United States. In 1892, President Benjamin Harrison issued a proclamation urging Americans to mark the day. The public responded enthusiastically, organizing school programs, plays, and community festivities across the country.

School's should enjoy the holdiday, not at school

Unless this is wrong, I think it should be mentioned in the article. I would think the LOC is a good source for such things. What, exactly, did FDR do?

This SHOULD NOT be a holiday why celebrate the killing of an entire tribe of Arawak Indiands in the Carribean. That is what columbus did find when he came bombarding into these peoples land. If the indiand didnt help him he cut off their hands and let them bleed to death! Why should we celebrate this?

Its celebrated because of the achievements made by European Americans. While other Europeans may have come earlier (ex. Vikings) Columbus was the beginning of the large diaspora of European Americans to America, and their subsequent achievements, which quite frankly, have been shared with the entire earth. European Americans have a right to celebrate their history and achievements as do any other group of people, and it should be as respected by the public and "hands off" by critics as are the holidays for minority groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.173.82.81 (talk) 22:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opposition section

The opposition section takes a very apologetic tone, and sounds also dismissive of critics of the holiday. Peyna 15:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Huh? The opposition section is longer than the rest of the article. Classic Wikipedia -- promoting the "dark side" of everything. But it is really too bad that we try to take a NPOV and can't accomodate all of your political views as you'd like. Perhaps you could start a blog if you want to opinionate.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.255.236.173 (talk • contribs) .

The section also seems to give undue weight to the 134 word quotation from the Ward Churchill. The quote is also uncited as to where it came from or even if it actually came from Churchill. I think it would be adequate to say:

  • Ward Churchill (an associate professor of Native American Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder, and a leader of the American Indian Movement), has argued that certain myths about Columbus, and celebrations of Columbus, make it easier for people today to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions, or the actions of their governments.

I think that adequately summarizes his position without the 134 word quote. --Dual Freq 18:42, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The HAWAII section, also, uses objectionable, emotionally charged (biased) language...such as this:

When 'discussing' the explorations of Columbus and Cook, in reference to the Catholic Church decree as to Christians as explorers, it now reads this way here in Wikipedia:

"...for their (Columbus/Cook) exploits."

It should read, "for their explorations."

The term, "exploits," is highly subjective framed to establish by emotional perspective only that exploerers were engaged in "exploitation" when and as they discovered -- from a European perspective -- distant lands.

The second area I point out here as to subjective, inflammatory statements made here in this "HAWAII" area is as to the "many diseases" that Cook/Columbus are said to have "brought" to Hawaiians.

Measles, yes, some colds and viruses, yes, but they also CAUGHT "many diseases" FROM distant lands, including from the people at that time who populated Hawaii. The disease process went (and still does) two ways, was (and continues to be) a mutually affecting issue of human populations once isolated from others then coming into mostly intimate contact with new populations and neither having prexisting immunities to the other populations' known infectious agents. There's no immunity, in other words, among human (and mammalian) populations when they are not exposed to specific infectious agents, and therefore, once introduced to those infectious agents, they have no immunity (or little immunity) to them, and therefore they "become sick" (and some perish).

That's what occured in the Hawaiian Islands when Cook and his ships arrived there but it also was a case (little reported) that Europeans suffered many infectious problems once introduced to the South Pacific, and to Asia especially. For example, the plague (the "Black Death") was introduced to Europe by an infectious agent hiding in the gut of fleas who rode back from Asia on camels via trade explorations/routes.

And, syphilis was introduced to Europeans from South and Central Americans, perhaps also Northern native peoples.

Thus, the whole area of "exploits" (subjective, emotionally derisive term for the acts of explorers) being the source of "infecting" "natives" with "diseases" is an ongoing negation by some people in, especially, the South Pacific who resent to this day the fact that Europeans arrived there and still live there -- in Hawaii, this language/story is used for purposes by some in Hawaii today to inflict "hate speech" on Europeans (suggesting that Europeans are responsible for "diseases" which "harm" Hawaiians and such -- same thing is said by some Native Americans for similar purposes without regard for the same infectious process they subjected Europeans to by simple fact of human immunology as I previously explained). —Preceding unsigned comment added by MyWikiEdit (talk • contribs) 20:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ward Churchill is unemployed.

Before citing Mr. Churchill, you might want to note he has been fired for lying on his resume about having Indian blood (among other lies.)

  • It's been delt with--RCT 19:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree Ward Churchill reference should be removed, he was caught several times by the university administration plagiarism. He is not a respected source in the academic community and should be removed. It is inflamitory to mention him and distracts from the other factual content of the article--Calgvla 06:42, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
  • You're welcome to remove it yourself, I wouldn't object. Grandmasterka 07:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Yeah, he definitely took a beating from the academic community, but many still consider a good part of his academic work as valid research in spite of the controversy surrounding his ethnicity and incendiary statements about 9/11. I've read some of his work which doesn't stand any differently whether he's Russian or Japanese. All that to say, I would think that he's not a completely off-limits source in spite of his more recent unpopularity. Efrafra (talk) 23:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] removed the crap paragraph

This paragraph is grossly overwritten and incoherent, not to mention unreferenced and WAY too conversational (and condesending) in tone to be a part of a WP article.

"Italian-Americans feel pride in the day due to the fact that Christopher Columbus, an Italian sailor, sailed to America and opened the world to a new era. But what is to be understood is what the role of Amerigo Vespucci, the banking representative for the DeMedici family of Florence, schooled in Renaissance science, played behind the scenes. Columbus traveled to many royal courts pleading for financial backing. After several tries with other courts, Spain eventually financed the ships for Columbus' brainchild. Some Americans are embittered by this victory for Columbus because of the ensuing genocide of Native Americans, by the Spaniards, after Columbus' arrival. But is this just a simple conclusion, instead of a planetary understanding of how tribalism and clans are challenged by the expansion of transportation systems and new technology. Remember, the horse did not exist in America until the Spanish invasion. In the United States, Banks and federal offices are closed on Columbus Day, as well as many of the offices at the Italian embassy in Washington D.C. and the various Italian consulates throughout the United states of America."

I don't think Columbus Day should be a holiay. We celebrate it just to remember how the mass murderer of Columbus killed half the Native Americans with diseases. I believe that is very cruel. All Columbus Day is is a day off of shcool/work.--Pg908 21:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Pg908


[edit] The old myth

Columbus killed half the Natives Americans? Where are your sources? You are a little bit racist, I think. Go to study, kid.

Paolo Emilio Taviani, "Columbus the Man: Modern Psychology on a Medieval Basis" - Five Hundred Magazine, Volume 1/No. 2; Oct/Nov 1989, Coral Gables, FL 33146.

I removed the paragraph:

"The modern-day legend of Christopher Columbus and the discovery of America is due to Washington Irving. His "biography" of Columbus, a dramatic and embellished account, was so popular it became accepted as fact in the English speaking countries. However, in the Spanish speaking countries Columbus' crossing of the Atlantic is widely accepted as the first contact between the two civilizations (European and native American) and additionally proved that the maritime technology was there to do it frequently."

Columbus a legend? Why don't you read the original papers of the XVth century instead of writing bulls? The most ancient info and pictures of Christopher Columbus can be found in the churchs and museums of Italy. They are original papers. But many writers i.e. Washington Irving did not speak italian, so they did prefer to base their own research on false news, second-hand papers and wrong translations. The world's leading historian, the most expert in this topic was an Italian scholar, Professor Emilio Taviani, who wrote over 100 publications about Columbus. Forget Irving 's book of 1828-1831 (lol) and try reading Taviani's books, please.

"Historically, Columbus was not the first to discover America, nor was he the first European to land in America, though he was the first European to successfully bring European culture to the Americas. There is also controversy surrounding the treatment of the native people of the Americas by Columbus and by Spanish conquistadors."

Historically speaking, Columbus is officially recognised and accepted by Renaissance scholars and modern historians as the first European to land in America, as told by Spanish and Italian papers of the time. We cannot say the same thing about the Vikings, whose Vinland map has showed of being a fake, a modern forgery on ancient paper. Also, we can only theorise about other folks like, for example, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Chinese, the Israelites and so on. Read: "Christopher Columbus: His Birthplace and His Parents", Paolo Emilio Taviani's Christopher, Columbus: The Grand Design, Orbis Publishing Ltd., London, 1985, Chapter I & II reprinted in in: Five Hundred Magazine, Volume 1/No. 2; Oct/Nov 1989, Coral Gables, FL 33146 --Jack 15:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Genocidas Totales

Hello Estadounidenses. Soy español, y me siento orgulloso del día de la Hispanidad como un motivo de celebración de una herencia y cultura común a ambos lados del Atlántico. Sin embargo tenemos que admitir (España) que además de un encuentro de culturas, también fue un choque de culturas y que muchos de los españoles que allí fueron mancharon en Nombre de España y su rey sus manos con la sangre de inocentes. Guerras, malos tratos, epidemias un cúmulo de atrocidades que en muchos casos llevaron a la exterminación de los pueblos indigenas. Pero no sólo España tiene un pasado concreto genocida (y con esto no justifico su acción) pero a los países anglosajones os ha llegado la leyenda negra que perdura desde el siglo XVI. Gran Bretaña debe responder por sus crimenes contra los nativos de Australia, los maorí en New Zealand o su más que discutida administración en la India. The United State debe responder por su política genocida contra los nativos américanos que exterminó en su camino hacia el Pacifico. SouthAfrica, Germany, China, Russia etc... Todos los países tenemos una historia de la que enorgullecernos y otra que debemos denunciar y evitar repetirla. Pero lo que no debemos es cargarle el muerto (spanish expression) a una sola nación, sea cual sea. Nisibis (Spain) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.35.120.254 (talk) 02:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

If you wish to respond in another language, it should be done at that language's discussion section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.173.82.81 (talk) 22:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "A lawyer"?

"Columbus Day was introduced as a U.S. national holiday by a lawyer, a son of Genoese immigrants coming around-the-horn."


- Who? Why begin an explanation of the founding of Columbus Day by referencing an unnamed person? Please cite a name, date/place of birth, anything.


"...During the 1850s, Genoese immigrants settled and built ranches along the Sierra Foothills. As the gold ran out, these skilled "Cal-Italians"...


- "Cal-Italians"? Is this made-up, or is it an actual recognized sub-culture? Please cite reference.


"...In 1937, at the behest of the Knights of Columbus (a Catholic fraternal service organization named for the voyager), President Franklin Delano Roosevelt set aside Columbus Day as a United States holiday."


- "behest of the Knights of Columbus"? Once again, please cite original source...



This is exactly the type of commentary that discredits Wikipedia. Please clean this up as soon as possible —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.162.0.44 (talk) 16:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] And who was Columbus?

Perhaps it was deleted, but shouldn't the article mention why it's called Columbus Day? The only reference to Christopher Columbus was in the "External Links" section at the bottom. Perhaps someone with more experience could insert his name at the appropriate spot. Related articles: Christopher_columbus, and European_colonization_of_the_Americas. 208.27.111.125 22:00, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minnesota

"Columbus Day is not celebrated in the state of Minnesota."--Is due to the large Scandinavian population and they are claiming one of their own discovered America before Columbus?12:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Someone recently edited the first sentence about Minnesota to say that the holiday is observed there and gave an external link backing it up. The following sentence started off "However, ..." which no longer made sense given the change to the first sentence. I removed the "However", but really, neither of these sentences belongs in this paragraph at all anymore. I don't want to delete them myself, because I don't know much about the subject matter, but they are definitely now out of place in a paragraph about places where Columbus Day is not observed. Seansinc 18:06, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Berkeley

Berkeley is spelled wrong in the article. 129.237.2.66 22:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Festividad de Nuestra Señora del Pilar - Día Nacional de España

There is hardly any mention of Columbus in Spain on this day. His sighting of land is viewed as something that happened on the day already dedicated to the Virgen of the Pillar.Guille 16:58, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Small pox

"An estimated 85% of the Native American population was wiped out within 150 years of Columbus's arrival in America, due largely to diseases such as smallpox, which were both accidentally and deliberately spread among Native American populations."

The claim above uses this cite as its source:

Smallpox, Indians, and Germ Warfare http://brneurosci.org/smallpox.html

Yet that source is not about anything that happened within 150 years of Columbus's arrival in America. It instead is about something alleged to have happened 271 years after his arrival in America. As such, it does not provide evidence of how the Native American population was wiped out within 150 years of Columbus's arrival. — Walloon 03:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discovery vs. Encounter

I move that "discovery" be changed to encounter, or some other neutral word. The reason for this is that it is a discovery from Columbus' point of view, but where is our own point of view? To the Europeans, it's definitely a discovery, because they didn't know that those continents were there, but the people indigenous to the Americas didn't discover themselves. What if they had come to Europe first? What would we call that? I think that there is still a pervasive European perspective in some things, and the idea that Columbus "discovered" a place is silly. He just came across it by accident. Hires an editor 23:37, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] no spanish view?

In Spain is a national holiday but i can't find any information about Spain. But i was led to this page from the national day day page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.35.146 (talk) 21:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)