Talk:Coins of the pound sterling

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[edit] Older comments

I think that a there should be two coin sections, one for silver, copper, and modern, whose values remain fixed in pounds sterling, and one for gold coins, like the guinea, which fluxuated with the price of gold with respect to silver.

Does anyone Know when in the Spring of 2008 the new Coin Designs will be released ??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.41.240.15 (talk) 17:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Some things that need fixing:

The 10p coin has been around since decimalization.
It's worth mentioning that the 1 and 2 shilling coins were carried across as the 5p and 10p, until the sizes were changed for both coins in the 1990s.
do we really need a page for each coin? Euro coins has (superb) pictures all on one page.
I heard that decimalization was a condition set by the EU for entry. switching to the metric system too.
- That can't be so - the currency was decimalized long before there even WAS a EU. Besides, why would they care about British currency, outside of whether it's kept or replaced by the Euro? Metric I can see - everyone else uses it, so it'd be odd to have one member without it, but there's no standardization for the non-Euro currencies Nik42 04:59, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ok the EU didn't exist but it's precurser the EEC (European Econmic Community) was in existence since 1957 / 1958. Whether it was a requirement of entry I cannot comment on. :: Kevinalewis : please contact me on my Talk Page : 15:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

(comments transferred from main article)

What was the abbreviation for a farthing? Also, if 3/6 was the abbreviation for three shillings and sixpence, what was the abbreviation for three shillings, sixpence and one farthing? -- Heron

You just wrote it out as a fraction (which I can't accurately represent here of course!) - so three shillings and sixpence was 3/6 and three shillings, sixpence and one farthing was 3/6 1/4 with the 1/4 written properly as a fraction and close up to the 6d. A farthing on its own was 1/4d, again written as a real fraction. OK? :) Nevilley 23:36 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC) PS Same goes for 1/2 and 3/4, natch.

3/6 ¼ - Hephaestos

Ah! Thank you. In fact, it would have been 3/6¼ with no space. (Nitpick!) :) Nevilley 08:25 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)

I like the nitpicks, I tend to be a nitpicker myself. *grin* (That is, when I know the subject, or think I do.) ¼, ½ & ¾ (188, 189 & 190) have the added advantage that they're low enough order to show up even in browsers that aren't up to Unicode. Three fractions isn't many, but fortunately for farthings it's all one needs. - Hephaestos

(Comments on the £1 and £2 from 1 Feb 2003 removed, as they've all been incorporated into the One Pound and Two Pounds sub-articles). -- Arwel 01:36 Mar 24, 2003 (UTC)

Value	Description	Edge inscription	Designer	Composition	Weight (grams)	Diameter (mm)	Edge thickness (mm)
£2	Silver-coloured disc surrounded by a copper-coloured ring. "A symbolic representation of the development of British industry from the Iron Age to the modern Computer Age"	Standing on the shoulders of giants	Bruce Rushin	Inner circle - Cupro-Nickel (75% Copper, 25% Nickel). Outer circle - Nickel-Brass (76% Copper, 4% Nickel, 20% Zinc)	12.00	28.40	2.50
£1	Gold-coloured disc	Decus et Tutamen (An ornament and a safeguard)	?	Nickel-Brass (70% Copper, 5.5% Nickel, 24.5% Zinc	9.50	22.50	3.15
£0.50	Silver-coloured Heptagon	-	Christopher Ironside	Cupro-Nickel (75% Copper, 25% Nickel)	8.00	27.30	1.78
£0.20	Silver-coloured Heptagon	-	William Gardner	Cupro-Nickel (84% Copper, 16% Nickel)	5.00	21.40	1.70
£0.10	Silver-coloured disc	-	Christopher Ironside	Cupro-Nickel (75% Copper, 25% Nickel)	6.50	24.50	1.85
£0.05	Silver-coloured disc	-	Christopher Ironside	Cupro-Nickel (75% Copper, 25% Nickel)	3.25	18.00	1.70
£0.02	Bronze-coloured disc	-	Christopher Ironside	From September 1992: Copper-plated Steel. Pre-September 1992: Bronze (97% Copper, 2.5% Zinc, 0.5% Tin).	7.12	25.90	1.85 / 2.03
£0.01	Bronze-coloured disc	-	Christopher Ironside	From September 1992: Copper-plated Steel. Pre-September 1992: Bronze (97% Copper, 2.5% Zinc, 0.5% Tin).	3.56	20.03	1.65

The florin is listed as continuing until decimalisation, but I'm sure the only ones I saw said "two shillings", not "florin". Anyone know when it changed? Bagpuss 22:19 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)

Never thought of that before, might turn out to be hard to write up; in 1904 they were inscribed with both. - Hephaestos 22:25 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)

Coins inscribed "florin" were still around in the 1960s, although all the ones after George V said "two shillings". -- Arwel 23:04 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)

Shilling (1/-), 1502-1970, in circulation until 1990, counting as 5 new pence.

Shilling (1/-), 1502-1970, circulated until 1990 as the old Five Pence coin.

Sorry, Arwel, but I found your wording confusing, which is why I changed it. Maybe mine wasn't that great either. Perhaps this and the previous problem would go if we list the various values and then list the coins with that value chronologically within that. i.e.

Coins worth 1/- or 5p
- Shilling, 1502-1970 (legal tender until 1990)
- Five New Pence (same size as the shilling), 1968-1990 (legal tender until 1990)
- Five New pence (smaller version), 1990-

Bagpuss 18:33 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, things are always likely to be a bit ambiguous. All the 17th century coins worth a pound are confusing too, especially when some names come back into use and the confusion of the Civil War. The way things are now it looks like you could still find a 1502 shilling in circulation in 1990! Maybe a comment should be added about how coins fell out of use with the various recoinages (especially 1816), and with changes in the metal composition, esp. 1947. First thing is to do an article about Maundy money, I think, and then continue with histories of each coin -- I'm not too bothered about the order of the coins, though descending value/date seem fairly logical. Zoe thinks some of the coin article names are a bit long, but at least they're unambiguous. By the way Hephaestos suggested putting coin inscriptions within <small></small> tags, which I think look really neat, like ELIZABETH II D G REGINA. -- Arwel 20:05 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)

I think we might be able to make Zoe and others a bit happier by using a scheme with the lesser-used term in parentheses, such as Half Florin (Leopard). I could be wrong though; trying to read minds again. ;) - Hephaestos

[edit] Names of the coin pages

I don't think the current names are terribly good to link to: "British coin Five Pence". I think we could simply have "Five pence", or "Five pence coin". If we need disambiguation, "Five pence coin (UK)". Any objections or suggestions before I move pages? (anyone else feel free to beat me to it! :) -- Tarquin 17:02 Mar 23, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I'd strongly object -- granted the current names aren't terribly elegant, but we're currently working on describing all the denominations that have ever circulated in England (I'll let someone else work on Scottish coinage, if they're interested!). In the case of the five pence, I'll grant you there was never a coin called that before 1968, but you would still want to distinguish it from the Irish five pence coin. I notice on the ten pence article you've changed the link from "British coin Florin" to plain "Florin", although that coin was worth two shillings to 1971, and we've already got an article on the "English coin Florin or Double Leopard" which was worth six shillings in 1344, and you'd need to distinguish between the florin as an alternate name for the late Dutch guilder, and various coins called florins which have been produced all over Europe since they first appeared in Renaissance Florence. There is method in our madness! -- Arwel 17:17 Mar 23, 2003 (UTC)

The problem is that these names are extremely unnatural. Do you ever say to a numismatic friend "I have an English coin ten pence here"? "Ten pence coin (UK)" so you can use the pipe trick. Or, if in the actual article text you're going to specify the country, "UK ten pence coin". These read like the names of actual things. -- Tarquin 21:37 Mar 23, 2003 (UTC)

Well in my defence I'll just say that this format's been in use since at least 10 months before I found Wikipedia! (as I just replied to "212" who complained about it on my talk page, even though the format was in use when he edited the page :-) ). I've no great objection to renaming them as long as I don't have to do them all! ... Do however pause before you start as we need to think through how we distinguish the different time periods -- you can't describe a coin as "UK" before 1707; in the present system I've tended to describe coins before 1603 as "English", ones from after 1707 as "British" and for between 1603 and 1707 I tended to switch in between them depending on how I felt at the time. For pennies I'm not even sure about describing all of them as "English" since the first ones predate the English state... -- Arwel 01:36 Mar 24, 2003 (UTC)

Sorry to add woes but I don't think the recent pluralization of coin names is correct - you don't say "two pounds coin", but "two pound coin" etc. Shouldn't we reflect usage? Nevilley 23:34 Mar 23, 2003 (UTC)

Well, you don't say "two pounds coin" but the coin itself says "two pounds". Except in the case of the £2 and £5 all the other coin names we have links to are what are actually on the coin, which is why I brought those two into line too. -- Arwel 01:36 Mar 24, 2003 (UTC)

Fair enough! Maybe we could just add a note on the common usage which might be useful to non-natives. But yes, as that's what it says on the coins, I am sure you are right and it should stay there. Thanks. Nevilley 08:03 Mar 24, 2003 (UTC)

April 23 says: *1968 - The United Kingdom produces its first decimalised coins, a 5p and a 10p coin.

Which is correct, 1971 or 1968? -- Zoe

Both. - Hephaestos

Yup - 5p and 10p were introduced in 1968, 50p in 1969, since they had exact equivalent values (1/-, 2/-, 10/-) in the old currency, even though actual decimalisation wasn't until 1971. Actually, of course, the first decimalised coin was produced in 1849 with the florin, it's just that they didn't proceed with the idea for another 120 years! -- Arwel

Under Slang there is this reference: "a half crown was a half dollar." Is this correct? Willmcw 05:20, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It was certainly used in some places as late as the 1950s. I don't remember hearing it used in my presence (I never had that much money in the 60s when it still circulated!), and I suspect it may have been a Londonism. 5/- was the approximate exchange rate for the US dollar in much of the early 20th century, but I don't know if that was the connection - Britain also issued "trade dollars" for use in China and the Pacific in the nineteenth century. -- Arwel 12:45, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

half a dollar was certainly widely used in both the South east (my family home) and in Solihull where I was living in the 1950s and 1960s.

Velela 23:48, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Coppers as slang. Arwel is right about the 20p limit on the use of 1p and 2p coins, however I think that copper is neverthless a slang term in use such I've only got a few coppers....

Velela 23:48, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Libra

"The symbol, £, for the pound is derived from the first letter of the Latin word for pound, the librum."

I suppose "librum" is the accusative case of liber (i.e. book).

Pound was libra (see Ancient_weights_and_measures#Weight_2

it:Utente:Carlomorino

[edit] Alderney pound

Can anyone tell me why the Alderney pound is not listed, and doesn't have a page? The Standard Catalog of World Coins has an entry for it, but I can't find anything about it in Wikipedia. Ingrid 02:16, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Mainly I think, because it's purely a commemorative coinage issue, rather than a full currency with banknotes. Administratively Alderney is part of the Bailiwick of Guernsey, and they've only issued commemorative coins since 1989, usually in £1, £2 or £5 values in base metail (also in silver and gold). -- Arwel (talk) 15:07, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. Would you consider adding a short note to the Guernsey pound page? And maybe a redirect from Alderney pound to Guernsey pound? Since all I know about it is what you've said above, I'm afraid that I'd mess it up if I tried to paraphrase what you said (but I'll try if you don't want to). Ingrid 05:00, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge notice

Merge - I see no reason to keep both pages - unless someone want to talk about coinage seperate from the sets of coins themselves. Personally "Coins" is the prefered and usual usage. :: Kevinalewis : please contact me on my Talk Page : 15:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pound signs

"although note that the British pound symbol is always written with two bars (ref: Bank of England Notes)". I've got a Bank of England tenner sat next to me and it's very much a single bar on both sides. or am I misunderstanding something? IainP (talk) 19:21, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Look at this image and decide, it looks to me as if its only one bar thru Joe I 21:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Which is what I'm saying. The article states it's two. I can only see one! Methinks the article needs correcting. It's not my field (check my edits...) so I'd rather leave it to someone who knows this stuff better than me :) IainP (talk) 10:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The Bank of England web site shows all the notes with a single bar and, as a long-term British British currency user, I've always written it with one bar. I've corrected the article. Bazza 14:57, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tuppence

I'm just curious as to why there is no mention of tuppence = two pence anywhere. topher67 11:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slang

The article states that florin is a slang term for two shillings. This is not strictly true - whilst terms such as tanner and bob are "proper" slang words (for 6d and 1/- respectively), florin was an alternative term for 2/- and could be found inscribed on some older 2/- coins. It should not be included in the slang section. Bazza 12:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copper Content

Doesn't really belong on the main page but just thought I would mention it here. Due to the recent increase in wholesale copper prices as of May 2006 a 2p peice was worth approx 2.3 as scrap metal. This only relates however to coins older that 1997(guessing at that date) as their copper content was reduced after that. If anyone as any further info it might be a nice little addition.

Also could someone add a section on whether it is actually acceptable to deface a coin or bank note

[edit] Pre-decimal system

Use of the Tower pound, not the Troy, as the standard throughout the Medieval era is covered in parallel under various headings: English units, Tower pound, etc. The role of Offa is also included in his main article, but no details about the Tower pound or the coin weight. I didn't want to cite a specific date for the 16th century reform. The Tower pound article says 1528, the other says 1527, and I can't relocate a non-Wiki source I recall as putting the change during Elizabeth I.

The wording should also be made clearer that only the names of English and Frankish coins are derived from Roman coinage; the ratios originated in post-Roman Frankish coinage and the weight standards are distinct (Tower pound is almost exactly 3 Frankish pounds). I don't have time to make that change. RgoNaut 08:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rationale

How did Britons come up with their pre-decimal system? To me it looks utterly illogical but I am sure that it must have made sense to someone back then. I came here because I was confused by the monetary units used in old English literature but still don't understand the rationale behind using a currency based on 1/240th of something else, or 1/12th and 1/20th respectively. (Or think of a quarter farthing, which is 1/3840th of a pound, or a half crown which is a quarter of a pound, totally mind boggling) [i]What was the Briton's rationale behind using pre-decimal units anyway?[/i]--Soylentyellow 19:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Convenience, same as the non-decimal divisions of the foot and the unit of weight pound. The penny was originally the basic unit (indeed, originally the ONLY coin), and 1/240 of a pound made for a convenient size. A more decimally-minded people might've picked 1/250 of a pound, but 240 has advantages in that it can be divided into more fractions than 250. The shilling developed as a middle level, equal to 12 pence, which worked out to 1/20 pound. 12 is a convenient number, which is why, to this day, quite a few things are sold in dozens, such as eggs. The farthing was simply a quarter of a penny. You can't get much more convenient than that, especially in the early days when there was no farthing coin, and half-pennies and farthings were simply cut coins. It's a lot easier to cut a coin into halves and fourths than into other fractions such as fifths.

And what's so hard to understand about quarter-farthings? It's just a fourth of a farthing! Since the farthing was non-decimal, any fraction of it would be likewise non-decimal. Also, the crown was a quarter of a pound, thus the half-crown was an eighth of a pound. Which strikes me as a useful fraction, more so than 1/10 in fact. It's a series of binary divisions, penny, half-penny, farthing, half-farthing, quarter-farthing - each coin is one-half the value of the next larger one, whereas in a decimal system you're stuck with having coins 2½ the value of the next-smaller one, such as the modern 5p and 2p coins. In fact, with the exception of the half-crown and florin, each coin in the pre-decimal system was either 2 or 3 times the value of the next smaller one:

Sovereign (£1) = 2 half-sovereigns

Half-sovereign (10/-) = 2 crowns

Crown (5/-) = 2 half-crowns or 2½ florins

Half-crown (2/6) = 2½ shilings

Florin (2/-) = 2 shillings

Shilling (1/-) = 2 sixpence

Sixpence (6d) = 2 threepence

Threepence (3d) = 3 pennies

Penny = 2 halfpennies

Halfpenny = 2 farthings

Farthing = 2 half-farthings or 3 third-farthings

Half-farthing = 2 quarter-farthings (third-farthings and quarter-farthings were not used in the same colonies)

Nik42 19:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

See also Denomination (currency)#Decimal v.s non-decimal. Comparing 240 and 250, 240 has 20 divisors: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 16, 20, 24, 30, 40, 48, 60, 80, 120, 240, while 250 has only 8 divisors: 1, 2, 5, 10, 25, 50, 125, 250. The reason for this big difference is that 240's integer factorization is composed of smaller prime numbers: 2⁴ × 3 × 5, compared to 250's integer factorization: 2 × 5³.

Ok what does it mean to have more divisors. It's more convenient to have partition things while you still get integers.

See also Table of divisors. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 09:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of the penny

In addition to the above I would like to make more changes. In this section, in the History of the penny primary article, and to a general history of money in Europe. Again the initial standard for the English penny was the Tower pound. Troy weights didn't exist in the 8th century, they originated in Troyes (France) several centuries later.

Charlemagne didn't dictate coin weights but rather a system of accounting to be used throughout his empire, based on the existing Frankish system of 1li=20s=240d. German currency was based on the mark of Cologne. Each Italian city had its own lira. The English had the only major currency using a trade weight pound as its defining index. The use of shilling as the intermediate denomination is from the word scilling, a Germanic term for older wire money.

How much depth belongs in a brief historical section on a page of this type? RgoNaut 18:18, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pre decimal system /small coins

Please see http://www.cyberussr.com/hcunn/gold-bri.html which is the only source i can find, but i have previously encountered mention of smaller predecimal coins than a farthing, this site supports my recollection of a 1/2, 1/3 and (which i didn't know) a 1/4 farthing having existed. Also apparently there has been a 1.5d coin (1834-1862) Graldensblud 22:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

See Three halfpence. -- Arwel (talk) 22:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coins of the pound sterling??

The title of this article - "Coins of the pound sterling" - is not any sort of English that I recognise. Propose changing it to "British coins", or "British coinage", or similar.

I don't have a problem with it - the article describes coinage which has been and is used for exchanging currency amounts in pound sterling. But if you want to change the title, that's OK. But be careful what bag of worms you open with the word "British". Does that include the Isle of Man, Channel Islands, Northern Ireland...? If you think me over-cautious, then have a peek at Talk:British_Isles_naming_dispute, Talk:British and Talk:British_Isles. Bazza 11:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:FivePence.jpeg

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[edit] Double Florin still legal tender

The letters patent which decimalised some pre-decimal coins specifically allowed for 5 different silver (or cupro-nickel) coins: crown (5s/25p) florin (2s/10p) shilling (1s/5p) sixpence (6d/2.5p). The letters patent also listed the 'double florin' (4s/20p). These coins were decimalised on the 30th August 1971. Since that time the sixpence, shilling and florin have all been demonitised. The crown is still valid (and indeed is listed on the Royal Mint website) and shown in the info boxes on this page. The wikipedia page on the double florin does state that it is still legally tenderable; so can we put this coin in the commemorative and bullion box, and perhaps consider renaming that title as the double florin is neither commemorative not bullion, but is legally tenderable under the current english decimal system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.120.84.226 (talk) 10:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed the following

"The competition to find new UK coin designs has highlighted that the UK is not anticipating joining the Euro any time soon." Looks like WP:OR. Rich Farmbrough, 14:26 31 October 2007 (GMT).

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Pennyreverse.JPG

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[edit] New coins

The mint has released designs for the 1p, 2p 5p, 10p, 20p, 50p and £1 coins, featuring different parts of the Royal Coat of Arms. They are to be minted this summer, and can be seen here and here. Ross^English 18:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I see they've already been added to the article. I should really read the whole thing first! Ross^English 18:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I think its cool that the new coins have been designed from a 26 year old born in Bangor, North Wales. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7326830.stm Onshore —Preceding comment was added at 00:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "New coins will replace..."

As far as I am aware the new coins are to circulate alongside the current coins. They will not be specifically removed from circulation. They will only be removed when they are worn out and no longer useful, as will any new coins that become unsuitable. I therefore think that any reference to them "replacing" the old coins should be removed or reworded as appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.111.162.127 (talk) 20:05, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 20p changed, so has the 50p

The page states that the design obverse of the 20p has been amended. Is is worth also pointing out that the 50p is now the other way around? "Upside down" in effect —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.111.162.127 (talk) 20:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

This is an interesting point, the obverse is bound to be "upside down" also, but only time will tell if this continues and whether the 2009 commemorative and future 50p pieces will continue with the new orientation. Insekt x (talk) 01:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I have a set of the new design coins and yes, the design of the 50p's obverse has been rotated slightly to suit the new orientation of the reverse design (i.e point down rather than point up).

Dent's designs are the new standard designs, so this orientation of the 50p *will* continue. Commerative issues may differ, but I can well imagine the Royal Mint will not want the expense/technical issues of stiking two different obverses concurrently and will issue future commeratives in the new orientation also.

Petecollier (talk) 15:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wales and the new designs

I just reverted an anon who added a point that Wales is not individually represented in the new designs. I reverted because the shield does not in theory individually represent England, Scotland or (Northern) Ireland either, but represents the Monarchy and by implication the UK as a whole - thus Wales, as part of the UK, is included.

It just happens that the shield does not include a Welsh part, since Wales was not one of the kingdoms that formed the union back in the day, and it has never since been added to the shield. The designs were done by a Welshman and it seems unlikely that he would have deliberately excluded Wales.

Is this right? Pfainuk talk 17:09, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Not quite; Wales is technically represented in the arms because at the time of the Act of Union, Wales was considered a principality of England (everything that affected England legally affected Wales also). D aniel (‽) 20:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks. In any case another anon has added something rather more concrete on the subject sourced from a newspaper from North Wales - which shows that it has been noticed. I've just revised it as I wasn't convinced the original version was NPOV and it mis-attributed a quote. I think the current version puts the idea across accurately and concisely but naturally correct me if I've got it wrong! Pfainuk talk 22:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edge inscription - 2008 £1 coin (Dent desgin)

The wording of the article was such, that following the 2008 redesign the £1 coin no longer had an inscription around its perimeter.

I have one of these coins in front of me now, and the milling has the familiar 'DECUS ET TUTAMEN +' inscription. I have therefore reworded the article to suit.

Petecollier (talk) 15:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

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