Talk:Coffee/Archive 2

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coffee in England?

This article here [1] and another one here [2] says it was a Turkish Jew named Mr Jacobs that introduced Turkish coffee to England and other sources says it was [3] [4] Ragusian man-servant known as Pasqua Rosee. Mr Rosee had been brought to England from Ottoman Smyrna by his former employer, Mr Daniel Edwards, a “Turkish merchant” (one who dealt in coffee and other such luxury items). I could find no source to back up the Greek statement. Surely a featured article should be better written? 82.145.231.12 17:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Update: Okay this article [5] states that the Turkish Jew Mr Jacobs opened up the first coffee shop with Mr Daniel Edwards' servant Pasqua Rosee opening up one a few years later. Meanwhile this article states that manservant Pasqua Rosee was Greek(?) and that the Turkish Jew Mr. Jacobs opened England's first coffeehouse in Oxford in 1650. But it seems from many sources that the first Turkish coffee house in England was established by a Mr Jacobs. 82.145.231.12 17:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

"Pasqua Rosée" (to accent it as one source puts it, probably correctly) is patently not a Greek name, and your sources in fact say he was Ragusan, which makes him Sicilian. Also, the name of the Oxford coffeehouse owner seems to be unclear. The realcoffee.co.uk source says "Jacob", while the bookofdays.com source says "Jacobs"; it's only the cocoajava.com article that calls him "Mr. Jacobs". It's difficult to say therefore whether a first name or surname is intended here; either is plausible. I'll edit appropriately.
I can't verify this "Ioannis Servopoulos" at all, and the date that had been given seems much too early. Thank you for fixing this. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

An excellently re-written edit of my changes. It reads much better, thank you. 82.145.231.180 09:36, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

IMO, the important part was correcting the unverifiable information in the first place. TCC (talk) (contribs) 09:59, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

coffee negative effects

I read in new scientist it think it was about a new study of the supposed negative effects of coffee. In this the apparently found that a lot of negative effects could be down to the relationship with smoking, eg almost everyone who smokes drinks a ot of coffee but virtually noone who doesn't drink coffee smokes. I think also they found that the filtering of coffee removed some negative substance/s but they didn't know what. Just thought twas quite interesting, don't know if anyone has seen the study and could give any details as to te surety of these statements.131.111.8.96

Smoking can be a confounding variable in any study, and I would assume that most good researchers would take that into account, and separate smokers from non-smokers in their results. The filtering of coffee through various methods (such as drip brew, I believe) removes the majority of cafestol, a diterpene that can raise cholesterol levels. It is interesting, however, that cafestol also has anticarcinogenic activity [6]. It's not the filtering, so much as the particular brew method, that can trap cafestol. --Muugokszhiion 22:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Confusing

"Electronic coffee makers boil the water and brew the infusion with little human assistance and sometimes according to a timer. Some even grind the beans automatically before brewing. Connoisseurs shun such conveniences as compromising the flavor of the coffee; they prefer freshly ground beans and traditional brewing techniques." So we're saying the coffee maker freshly grinds the coffee for each cup, but connoisseurs (ALL connoisseurs mind you) shun these machines because they want freshly ground coffee. The machines brew the infusion according to a set time, but ALL connoisseurs shun these machines in favour of traditional brewing techniques, such as espresso machines and brewing the infusion for a set amount of time? These connoiseurs must be different to the connoiseurs I've met, whose entire job is brewing and tasting coffee. 57.66.51.165 14:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm removing the recipes

Per WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_an_indiscriminate_collection_of_information point 8, I'm removing the list of alcoholic drinks entirely. They're almost all redlinks, they're nothing but recipes, which is unencylopedic. Someone could write a wikibooks article on alcoholic drinks with coffee, including recipes, or a wikipedia article on them (without recipes) and we could have a link to that here, if this is desired. --Xyzzyplugh 23:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, note that having these lists of drinks is one of the reasons why this article failed to become a featured article. --Xyzzyplugh 23:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Edit Without Mercy

This article was unreasonably long. It is now shorter, because i have tried to summarize and move lists off to their own articles. It still, however, needs work: the entire medical section near the end should be made into its own article, and simply summarized here. Go to it. Nandesuka 19:46, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The most important part of this article was taken out

Hi, I just saw that the portion of the article listing drinks was taken out. I can't believe this. The definitions of drinks are by far the most important infomation in the article. So many people have edited the article since I last saw it that I can't figure out who deleted all the most impotant info. And I can't revert to get it back. Whoever it was, it was probably a vandal trying to delete all the useful information. He left the useless part intact to look like the article was unvandalized. Seriously, we need to re-add that info soon Tobyk777 06:16, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Scratch all of that. It was one guy who deleted more than half the article. I'm gona have a talk with him. Tobyk777 06:20, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I approve of all the changes made by the vandal Nandesuka. - brenneman{L} 07:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
This change] moved it to a separate page and left a link to that page. The only concern I have is that the overview paragraph that remains seems to underdescribe that new page. Wouldn't hurt to have a sentence or two more than just "grinding, brewing, mixing with other stuff". DMacks 17:58, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm fine with expanding the description. The goal, though, should be a description, not a laundry list. Laundry lists are almost always bad. I considered putting in a mention of espresso vs. infusion coffee, but my fear is that the next guy comes in and decides that in addition to espresso and infusion coffee, we also need to mention White Chocolate Caramel Macchiato, and then we're off to the races. But if you think you can expand it sensibly without laundry-listing, be my guest! Nandesuka 18:58, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank heavens all that junk about various exotic coffee based drinks is out of this article. It was becoming quite unwieldy. Garglebutt / (talk) 22:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Your joking right, the drinks were the most important part. Tobyk777 05:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Ah no, it was a long list of largely irrelevant material. There is only one real coffee drink which is an espresso. Most of the drinks listed were based on that so didn't belong in an article about coffee itself. Garglebutt / (talk) 07:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Phase 2 restructuring

I just whacked the article with a stick again, this time with an eye towards reorganizing it so it made sense. I moved the "economics of coffee" and "health" sections up substantially, since we are talking about one of the most widely traded commodities in the world; I put them ahead of the "preparation" section because it is more important that we tell people what coffee is, and why it is important, than that we tell them how to make it. I rewrote and tightened up a lot of unnecessary verbosity (we could still do a lot more here). A number of minor sections had section headers when they didn't really warrant it -- they interrupt the flow of the article. I massively tightened and trimmed the whole section on "quick coffee". I added a citeneeded to a statement that needed it. (I also eliminated or moved to other articles a number of interesting but nonessential tidbits (such as where the mother plant for Arabica is).

Still lots of work to be done. This article is still 30k long. Any suggestions for good candidates for removal or things that could be moved to their own article? Nandesuka 22:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Use of the word Cafe around the World

I am removing the paragraph concerning the use of the word cafe. Its information can be found at Coffeehouse (to which readers are already directed) and doesn't really contribute further towards defining "coffee". Turly-burly 02:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

"yet unknown chemical agent"?

"Recent research has uncovered additional stimulating effects of coffee which are not related to its caffeine content. Coffee contains an as yet unknown chemical agent which stimulates the production of cortisone and adrenaline, two stimulating hormones."

A citation is in order.


New study

Consumption of coffee is associated with reduced risk of death attributed to inflammatory and cardiovascular diseases in the Iowa Women's Health Study [7]--Rotten 13:52, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

"or with ice"

This barbarism is featured on the very first sentence for crying out loud. Why not add coffee-flavored ice creams and candy? Conversely, why not give the hot beverage the deserved right of way? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elpincha (talk • contribs)

That was added by a repeat vandal, User_talk:65.12.134.148, some time ago - I found it while hunting through his list of changes to articles. I reverted it as suspicious - although he did make one or two valid edits in amongst his widespread acts of minor vandalism. Evidently Interestingstuffadder thinks it's legitimate enough to put back in; I don't have strong feelings either way. Paddles TC 15:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I feel that "or with ice" does not belong to the first sentence. There might be drinks that include both coffee and ice as ingredients, but I have never seen or heard of coffee by itself being served with ice.--Teemuk 09:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Iced coffee is seriously popular in Japan. Interestingstuffadder 15:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Varietals

A coffee varietal is simply the genetic subspecies of coffee. This includes Caturra, Bourbon, SL-28, and any other species of coffee. Kona, Jamaican Blue Mountain and Kenya AA do not count in any way as varietals. Kona is a place in Hawaii, not a coffee. Jamaican Blue Mountain means it comes from Jamaica, nothing more. And Kenya AA is used to describe the size of the beans. Not to mention in the Coffee varietals section it lists "Colombian" as a varietal. Considering Colombia is one of the world's largest suppliers of green coffee (#4), I would assume there is more than one subspecies of coffee there.

Also, where it says "Coffee beans from two different places, or coffee varietals, usually have distinctive characteristics", places do not equal varietals. James 18:58, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Seriously--as a coffee tasting term, "acidity" has nothing to do with pH.

What is the most consumed beverage?

The Coffee article says that coffee is the most consumed beverage in the world. The Tea article says that after water, tea is the most consumed beverage. Which is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.115.159.53 (talk • contribs)

Coffee isn't consumed more then water. The tea page says tea is number 2 after water. The coffee page claims to be #1 which is not true, since water is most consumed. Now, I've read that tea is the number 2 beverage in the world in printed sources, however, I can't remeber where so I cannot cite them. If no source can be found to support the questiable statement in the coffee page, someone should edit it.
Not sure, but also not even if they are in conflict. I think the relevant sentences from each are:
  • "Today, tea is the second most consumed beverage in the world after water, with every one in two persons a tea-drinker."
  • "Coffee is the second most commonly traded commodity in the world (measured by monetary volume), trailing only petroleum, and the most consumed beverage."
It's not clear to me what statistics are being used by either of these unreferenced statements. The second clause of the tea sentence is about number of drinkers--is the first clause about number of drinkers as well, or about amount consumed? The first clauses of the coffee sentence are about the amount of coffee--are we to assume the last clause is also about amount consumed? DMacks 03:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I've heard that most people in the world (who drink tea or coffee) are mainly tea drinkers, thus it may not be the amount of tea consumed (per kg) in the world but rather what percent of the people in the world drink mainly tea (per capita). I'm also not sure if tea is traded as a commodity, as such, coffee as the 2nd most traded commodity is very much possible. As such stating that both are the "most consumed beverage in the world" is not entirely inaccurate, when mentioned in a specific context. Sjschen 18:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
To quote Chase Me Ladies [8], the comment is clearly balderdash [9]. There are four billion Asians, most of whom drink several cups of tea a day. If they each drank just one brew a day they'd still dwarf coffee consumption. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.69.80.229 (talk • contribs)
Actually, China's per capita tea consumption is quite low vs other countries and even its agregate total isn't tops. [10]. As we've already stated, we have no idea what issue either the tea or the coffee statements are surveying and I don't see any data to back up either page's assertions. DMacks 20:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Many Europeans use a teabag once and dispose of it. Many, if not most, Chinese reuse their tea leaves. So per capita consumption may not be an accurate reflection of popularity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.112.80.139 (talk • contribs) .
You start by noting "not necessarily", so it sounds like you are in agreement thatYup...we really don't know what the stats are really talking about and that therefore trying to compare them is a pointless excercise. DMacks 16:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Apologies for my sloppy first sentence. So I've deleted it. The argument is clearer without it.
What can you say...everybody just wants their favorite drink to be the most popular. Sjschen 00:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Clarification of Coffee vs. Caffeine

Where possible, the Risks and Benefits sections should abstract what is attributed to caffeine into the caffiene article. Or if the root driver of the risk or benefit (coffee or caffeine) is unclear, it should state this.

Coffee improves test performance??

A few years ago, I remember reading about a study/studies which showed that coffee improved scores on mental skill tests. But I seem to remember subsequently reading that somebody reviewed the study/ies and found that when coffee withdrawl was controlled for, the effect went away. That is, among subjects who didn't get coffee were coffee drinkers experiencing withdrawl and subsequently lower test performance! But I can't remember where I read this, if I'm remembering correctly, or how to search for it. Anybody have a clue?

I remember exactly the same thing, but not where I read it...Gzuckier 19:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Diabetes

Diabetes prevention is even better in decaffeinated coffee[11]. JFW | T@lk 09:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

More History

I think it would be interesting to mention that coffee was "baptized" by Pope Clement VIII in 1600, and that the drink's popularity in the U.S. owes some debt to revolutionaries moving from tea to coffee after the Boston Tea Party. Both are interesting parts of coffee's story. I am new around here, so I didn't want to change anything but did want to highlight these two things. Below is a link to a timeline from a book by Mark Schapiro that mentions these two bits.


[12] --Jasonguit 19:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry about being new! We encourage newcomers to edit articles! Go right ahead, that's the whole idea of a wiki. :) —BorgHunter (talk) 03:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Coffee is a strong drug

with a strong dependance effect. how can you write an article on coffe without saying once that coffee is a drug. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.227.15.19 (talk • contribs) 22:30, 2 July 2006

Moron!

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.178.74.201 (talk) 19:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

Coffee is a beverage; caffeine is a drug. The article includes a link to the caffeine article where the issue is explained in detail.--Teemuk 06:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

"Most Consumed Beverage"

There has been some disagreement over whether the claim that coffee is the most consumed beverage in the world. I did some digging in to this a little while ago. Most of the claims I found about what beverage was or was not the most consumed in the world were random, unsourced statements from the web. I finally found a cite from the Journal of the American Medical Association claiming that coffee had the honor. If someone else can find a different reliable source that claims that tea (or water) is the most consumed beverage, please put it here so we can note the disagreement. Thanks. Nandesuka 11:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


The tea article maintains that the most consumed beverage is water. This article cites an abstract from a scientific paper that claims that coffee is the most drunk beverage in the world. I simply cannot believe that more coffee would be consumed than water, when many of the most populated regions of the world are struggling to get access even to water! Even in those countries that are coffee producers, coffee may not be frequently consumed; rather, it is exported for cash (most of these people are very poor, they wouldn't consume it if they can sell it). Which is somewhat beside the point, since the question really is: how does the world's coffee production compare to its drinking water consumption? I believe the authors were motivated by the need to justify their research, and argue for the important for their paper to get it into JAMA. I suspect they are making a claim that does not hold. In fact, the abstract being an abstract, it does not cite any sources for the claim, and it is not the subject of the paper (the paper is about diabetes and therefore should never have been cited in this context in the first place). Please come up with a better source for this claim, or amend the claim to something more tenable. Many thanks, Samsara (talk • contribs) 12:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The fact that the tea article disagrees with this one isn't really relevant, since that article doesn't cite any sources for that claim. If we can find a reliable source that disagrees with the JAMA article, that's one thing, but it is completely inappropriate to remove the claim based on our own personal beliefs. As for how coffee might be more consumed than water, as the article on water notes, much of the water in the world is not potable water. When the water in an area is not potable as-is, people drink substitute drinks — such as beer, wine, coffee, or tea — that have been processed which make the water safer. Do I know that that's what's happening here? No, it's just my theory, and is thus inappropriate for inclusion in the article. What is appropriate is citing claims made by reliable sources. Nandesuka 12:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
But what is the JAMA definition of beverage? Does it mean prepared beverage? If that's the case, water was probably not included as an option, as most don't think of water when they they think of beverages. It would be helpful to find out if water was even on their radar. pschemp | talk 12:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The point here is that your source is NOT RELIABLE because it is an abstract for a paper about a completely different topic. Have you read the article? What actual authority does it cite. I am quite certain that the article does not present original data for answering the question whether coffee us the most drunk beverage or not since the article IS ABOUT DIABETES. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 12:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I have access to the full text of JAMA at work. I'll look up the article on Monday and see what source it cites. See how simple it is? Nandesuka 12:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
If you're trying to look triumphant, I'm afraid I have to turn that down. Impression not good. Regards, Samsara (talk • contribs) 12:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
When we cite sources instead of relying on our own "certainties" and "common sense", the winners are the readers of the encyclopedia. Nandesuka 12:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Part of properly citing a source is interpreting that source correctly. If a source claims that coffee is the most consumed beverage, then the statement must mean "of all flavored beverages" or something similar. There is simply no way to avoid logic and common sense when interpreting almost all sources -- textual contexts almost always necessarily omit a great number of facts which are assumed to be common knowledge of the reader (e.g., that coffee consists of more than half water.)

To argue that a source must be trusted without actually having read the source is far worse than relying on common sense or logic to put a source's statement in context. BenB4 13:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Right. Until we know what it actually says, it's pretty pointless to speculate about it or try to draw any conclusion from those speculations. I assume when Nandesuka said he'd read it, he'd tell us what it says so we can actually discuss this issue based on the article itself not our assumtions and presumtions about it? DMacks 16:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

How can coffee consumption account for 1/3 of total tap water consumption? I find it hard to believe that such a large amount of water is used for the making of coffee. I take myself as an example. I drink a lot of coffee about 1 litre on a day, which is more than the average person. I also take a shower once a day which accounts for the consumption of about 12 litres of water. Then there is the water used for cooking which probably accounts for 1 litre a day. So on average I consume 14 liters of water with 1 litre for coffee. So I use about 1/14 parts of water for coffee. I don't think most other people are much different (at least in developed countries). So how on earth do you people think that 1/3 of all tap water is used for coffee. I thing it is improbable. Please enlighten me.

Well, you see, we are slavishly following the sources. Common sense is apparently not en vogue any more.
Best wishes,
Samsara (talk • contribs) 12:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I took the liberty of removing the 1/3 water usage for coffee on this page. Just to see it added again in about 5 minutes of time. I am not going to edit this article ad nauseam just for the sake of an edit war. Perhaps the origanal author can present some credible number to back the 1/3 used of water used for coffee claim? Come one let's have an open discussion. I am not saying it is impossible that 1/3 of water is used for coffee i just want that this claim is verifiable. This an enclypedia right? So back up your claims!

Well, you're doing the right thing discussing it. This is the reference for the statement:
http://www.iwapublishing.com/template.cfm?name=news70&br=w21
It is unclear whether the claim is from the cited paper, in which case it is unreliable as the paper deals with cancer, not with water usage, or whether the "International Water Association" (how notable are they? they don't have a Wikipedia article...) threw in their own numbers obtained through whatever means. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 14:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
We are talking about a beverage here, so "consumption" is presumably in the gastronomic sense only, not the more general "used for anything at all" sense. Showering and doing the laundry do not seem relevant. DMacks 15:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

If you state water consumption, this includes all water consumption not just the amount of fluids that are actually drunk! So showering is important if you are stating a percentage of water comsumption, since the WORD consumption does not actually relate to imbibing fluids (although drinking is obviously a way of consuming water it is just not the only way to consume water!). So we could reforumalate the claim to be that 1/3 of all liquids drunk are actually coffee which indeed could be true, but is NOT backed nor claimed by the cited article!

Consuming involves using up[13], but changing it to "drinking" is fine with me if it solves your problem. As for the the 1/3 value itself, the referenced article states exactly that: "Coffee consumption, which on average makes up about a third of tap water consumption," DMacks 19:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

If you change it to drinking that would be fine with me, but you also need a credible source for the statement that 1/3 of drinks consumed is coffee. Your article does not stipulate in any way how they calculated the 1/3 percentage. This is important because it is not simple to calculate the amount of coffee consumed vs all drinks consumed. You could try to find numbers about the total beverage consumption in one country and the total coffee consumption in that country and calculate the percentage of drinks drunk that are actually coffee. But you will need reliable sources for that calculation. It stupid to just copy the 1/3 number from the article you cited, because it just an article saying that 1/3 of drinks consumed are coffee, but we need hard, statistically sound numbers to back such a claim. That means hard work and has te be done. If one is not inclined to do such work the 1/3 claim must go.

The study that article is describing is (apparently) International Journal of Cancer 2006 118(8) 2040–2047, which pooled drinking-habit data from other studies in several different countries. It states states "coffee constituted on average about one third of the total tap water ingestion." DMacks 20:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok that indeed looks sound. Make a link to the international Journal of Cancer and use their words: "1/3 of tapwater *ingestion* constitutes coffee". See they use the word ingestion that actually is a word which excludes other forms of water usage. Drinking = ingestion. It would be even better if you could find the study which the Journal of Cancer actually relied on. It might seem a bit overdone but it would make the claim even more credible. I feel we are converging on this point

Good article nomination

My suggestions:

  • in the lead + section Coffee bean types, there are many bracket structures, please fix it
  • in section Etymology and history, there is a quote, but « mark is not the best to show a quote
  • in section Health and pharmacology of coffee + Social aspects of coffee, there are citation needed templates, without fixing these, it can't pass

Anyway, it's an exceptional, well-referenced, illustrated article, I found it interesting. NCurse work 07:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

What does "bracket structures" mean? DMacks 18:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, I wasn't understandable: "(flavor criteria include terms such as "citrus-like" or "earthy"), aroma (sometimes "berry-like" or "flowery")"... NCurse work 08:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

My suggestions: You have an uncited statement under "Social Aspects". That's the only thing that's barring me from granting this article "GA" status.--*Kat* 04:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

That one is fixed now. DMacks 04:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Kewl. Having spoken with NCurse on our talk pages, I'm going to bow to her request that y'all fix the couple of things that she (he?) pointed out. NCurse has more experience with this than I do. My apologies for renigging.--*Kat* 18:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Since these problems have not been addressed and it has been more than seven days since the nom was placed on hold, I'm failing it. Daniel Case 02:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

This article derives the word Coffee from Kahve meaning wine or other intoxicating liquors in Ottoman Turkish, but the article Caffè states that "Caffè is the Italian word for coffee, (itself from Kaffa, the region in Ethiopia where coffee originated". If Kahve was, indeed, a general term for intoxicating liquors then there seems to be a contradiction here.

Also I don't understand the quotation from Léonard Rauwolf that "Its consumers take it in the morning, quite frankly, in a porcelain cup that is passed around and from which each one drinks a cupful. It is composed of water and the fruit from a bush called bunnu." Surely after the first consumer drank a cupful from the cup it would have been emptied? Could it be that the words translated as "porcelain cup" should be rendered "porcelain jug" or else that the consumers each drank a mouthful rather than a cupful? Struman 19:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Decaffinated Coffee

One fairly consistent finding has been the reduction of diabetes mellitus type 2 in coffee consumers, an association that cannot be explained by the caffeine content alone and indeed may be stronger in decaffeinated coffee.[24]

More sources are needed to back up this point, if the study is consistent - ive never heard of this mentioned before. Also, logically that finding doesnt make any sense. More sources please, and credible ones - not some minor statistical research. Timmah01 12:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Missing information in book reference: "Reise in die Morgenlander"

Although the article mentions year 1538, the citation doesn't mention the book's publication date. Chapter, quote and an ID are also missing. It would be also very good to have a link to a (free) electronic copy of the book in english... there must be some; the copyright must have been void since a long time ago ;) --_N_e_g_r_u_l_i_o 03:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Caffeine

The role of caffeine in coffee's popularity seems pretty central to me, but the word "caffeine" only gets mentioned about 3 times in the article. It definitely should get more mention.

Someone mentioned decaffeinated coffee -- I think that should get some attention somewhere in the article, too. It shows that coffee has become so central to life -- or so popular for its taste -- that some people will resort to drinking it without the factor that brought about its popularity in the first place. --Rschmertz 06:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Although 'coffee' has become partly synonymous with 'caffeine', this is only part of the story. Isn't there more caffeine per cup (usually) in tea than in coffee? The other alkaloids in coffee deserve at least the same importance. What coffee does that caffeine on its own doesn't is, inter alia, to affect part of the human hormonal system; the 'day/night' regulator mechanism.

Also, there seems to be no mention so far of the crucial effect of temperature on the brew. In order to maximise the proportion of 'nice' exctracts the temperature should, according to Dr Johnson's preferences, not exceed 95 degrees C. An alternative extraction process, the expresso method, uses higher temperature but a very short extraction time. At higher temperature and with longer extraction times the proportions of bitter, 'jangly' as I experience them, constituents increases. It's easy to test this. Either make two brews using boiling and slightly cooled water, OR use just the first portion through the expresso machine and on a different occasion the later portions.

Given that this coffee stuff provides a variety of drugs, one might as well get the best out of it. As I experience coffee there are clearly a number of contituents. I don't actually know what they are chemically, but I do have a fair clue as to which I prefer. It would be useful to have information on the known consitutents and on how to maximise the desired effects while minimising any disadvantages. This seems to me to be a matter of either using water that is not boiling (albeit that boiling water is appropriate for tea) or to discard the later portions of production from an expresso machine. Davy p 01:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

You might want to start by taking a look at caffeine. A number of the other metabolically active substituents of coffee are compounds that are directly related to that lovely alkaloid, and are at least given mention in the article. – ClockworkSoul 03:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and for the record, coffee has quite a bit more caffeine than tea. – ClockworkSoul 03:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

"Second most traded commodity after oil" is unverified and not supported by available data

Hey everyone,

I am in the process of purging this pernicious statistic from the Wikipedia articles about coffee, because, well, it's just not true. Yes, you will see it mentioned nearly everywhere, but if you take the time to trace it to a primary secondary source (which is, in itself, nearly impossible), you will find the only time that this may have been true was in 1986. Someone cited that data in a book, and it was such an exciting number to coffee folks that they ran with it and never looked back (or checked to see if it was still true 10, 15 or 20 years later). Now it is more or less accepted as common knowledge—except that since then, coffee has fallen behind other agricultural products in value, which you can verify by using the UN Food And Agriculture database for export values (compare coffee, for example, to wheat, maize, soybean, sugar, and palm oil over the last 10 years). This is an old myth that needs to be put to rest. Feel free to move where I put the information (I simply replaced the old "second to oil" sentence), but please don't change the data unless you can verify it with a primary secondary source (Proctor and Gamble and ICO press releases aren't primary secondary sources!) Margareta

Could you post a link to the "UN Food And Agriculture database for export values" that compares the level of trade in the various commodities, in particular if coffee is not second, where is it in the list, or, if not that, what is first, second, third? Searching for the terms you provide I cannot find this information. It's not value, also, the statistic is "the most traded commodity," not "the most valuable commodity." Coffee was never the msot or second most or even in the top ten of valuable commodities that I've ever seen. So, please provide sources to the most traded commodities or the placement of coffee in the most traded commodities list. KP Botany 21:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The FAO data is from a series of queries to their Trade database run last year. The databases can be found here: http://faostat.fao.org/default.aspx. At that time, the most current data they had was from 2003, when coffee was the sixth largest agricultural commodity (measured by value of exports), after wheat, soybeans, maize, sugar and palm oil. The database does not list commodities such as oil, precious metals, etc. I don't have a list of the "most traded commodities or the placement of coffee in the most traded commodities list." What I can tell you is that, if coffee is only the sixth-largest agricultural commodity, then it is certainly not the second largest commodity overall! Also, the position of coffee changes every year: in 1986, it was, in fact, the number one agricultural commodity, and in 3 years in the 1990's it was second, after wheat. To say "coffee is" when talking talking about highly volatile commodity markets risks having the statement be nearly immediately out-of-date. Whenever I see the "second-most" whatever (the "whatever" changes from source to source: some say "traded," some say "valuable," some just say "important," whatever that means-- and this is true even of peer-reviewed articles), in the rare cases when I have been able to trace it back to a primary secondary source, the primary secondary source is always from the late 1980's. For example, Talbot (Grounds for Agreement, published in 2004) cited data from 1988. So it is possible that, in 1986 when coffee was the top agricultural commodity in terms of total export value, it was also the second commodity overall. I haven't been able to verify this, as I haven't been able to go back to the couple of cited primary secondary sources to check that they really say what the people who cite them say they do. On the other hand, if you are talking about total volume of contracts sold (as opposed to value), the situation could be different. This, of course, has as much to do with the level of speculation in the different commodity markets than with the real value of the product, or even the trade in the product. It seems dubious that, as we are coming off a highly speculative bull market in precious metals and other non-agrocultural commodities, coffee would even come in second by this definition A New York Times article earlier this year said that coffee had the second-highest trading volume, in terms of contracts (by which a single quantity of coffee can be bought and sold many times) on the New York agricultural exchange, after sugar. Of course coffee is also traded on other exchanges, and may trump sugar--and all the other agricultural commodites--in those places. If you know of a good source for the total value of contracts sold worldwide for all commodities, I would love to see it. In fact, I would love, love, love for someone to take the time to do a real analysis, using current data, of where coffee fits in global trade by the several definitions available. Unfortunately, I don't have time to do this myself. In the meantime, my point remains: the oft-cited "second-most" figure simply cannot be verified, except, possibly, pertaining to some time many years ago, but in many cases there is strong evidence, if not proof, that it is no longer true. Margareta 20:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

"Traded" is not synonymous with valuable. You titled your comment, "Coffee is not the second most traded commodity after oil!" Please focus on this one item, your discussion of the "most traded [commodities]:" where, in "the 'UN Food And Agriculture database for export values' that compares the level of trade in the various commodities," did you find the information that "Coffee is not the second most traded commodity after oil!?" I've seen this reported in a book I am reading and a number of other places. Your headline led me to believe that you had disproved this, and I would simply like to have the source for your [dis]proof about "most traded commodities," the topic at hand, not about agricultural import and export values, whose figures I can find myself. I'm just trying to understand the source of your comment about the quote on "second most traded commodity," that's all. Thanks, KP Botany 22:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's reported in a book you're reading. That is my point: it was printed once, 15 years ago, may once have been true, and has been repeated hundre since without ever being verified again. It's now accepted as "common knowledge," despite the dynamic and changeable nature of global markets. Try verifying your book's primary secondary source. I'm willing to bet--if there even is one--it's at least ten years old. If you Google coffee-commodity-second-oil or a similar combination of words, you'll find thousands of places where they say that - and "valuable" is frequently confused with "traded," with no testable definition of either word provided. However, I have never seen any data to support either assertion. Getting something printed in a book doesn't mean it's true, and once it's in print, it will be quoted and quoted again - and repeating something often enough doesn't mean it is true, either. However, perhaps if you can first provide your book's definition of "most traded," the name of the book you are reading, and the source your book cites (as well as, ideally, the source that source cites, and so on down to the primary primary or secondary source), it would be easier to address your particular question. I have, however, tried to change the title of this thread to "Second most traded commodity after oil is unverified and not supported by current data" to make my intent clearer, but it appears I can't change the title. Margareta 23:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you just post what data you have about the most traded commodities? And, please, check the tone at the door, I'm just trying to figure out what it is you have that lists the most traded commodities, that makes you so certain that coffee isn't the "second most traded commodity after oil." So, please, focus on information you have about what the most traded commodities are. And what the source of this information is. You used the term traded, not "valuable" and traded is what the article is stating. So, are you now saying you are talking about the most valuable and not the most traded? I'm trying to understand what it is you are challenging, and what your information for challenging this is.
What is, for example the "first most traded commodity?" Is it oil? What is the "second most traded commodity" if coffee isn't it.
There is more than one way to show that something is wrong, but google searches and comments about something being "printed once, 15 years ago" and "been repeated ad nauseum" have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not something is true. I've read the statement, you seem to be saying certainly that it's not true, I tried looking up information about what the most traded commodities were, I couldn't find it, now I want to know from you, how you know coffee isn't the "second most traded commodity." Is it because you know what the first and second most traded commodities? Fine, what are they, and what is the source for that information?
How do you know this is wrong? That something is printed in a book doesn't make it wrong any more than something is posted on the web or in a book makes it right. You know it's wrong, how do you know? What's your source of information on the most traded commodities? What IS the "second most traded commodity," if it's not coffee? What commodities are more traded than coffee?
I'm trying to understand your sources, what told you that something else is a much more traded commodity than coffee? That's all.
The book I'm reading right now is Coffee: A Dark History by Antony Wild (Hardcover - Jun 27, 2005, although mine says First American Edition). But, please, don't make it about this book, just share with me what data you have about commodities trading that shows what is more traded than coffee, and thereby shows that the statement that "coffee is the second most traded commodity after oil" is wrong.
Oh, to change the title of this section edit the entire Discussion page, rather than just this section.
Thanks~ KP Botany 01:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
To clarify one thing: I think the reason Margareta brings up "value" is that that affects how one measures trade. After all, if we're measuring what is the most traded commodity, we're not measuring physical volume, or weight, I assume; we're talking about monetary value. Assuming I'm right about that, then if coffee and oil were to see an equal amount of trade in dollar terms in one year, and then the value of coffee were to go down by half the next year, then even if the physical trade and consumption of these commodites remained constant, coffee would be measured as having only half the trade volume of oil, because trade volume would be measured in dollars. Do we agree on the measurement of trade in terms of dollars (or your currency of choice)? --Rschmertz 04:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know, that's part of what I'm trying to understand, why I want to look at the information about what are the most traded commodities, so I understand what is at stake. Commodities trading is about locking in the price, for agricultural products, isn't it, say on how much coffee you want next month and how much you are willing to pay for it? While the market for coffee has grown immensely over the past two decades, things like the glut of cheap Vietnamese Robustas have caused the price to go down. So, over twenty years the volume of coffee is much greater, but the price may have dropped due to the market being overstocked with cheap coffees. So, are buyers more worried about the price of coffee, meaning the its share in the commodities trading market is more? Or is amount of commodities trading solely a reflection of price, in which case it seems as if it never could have been the second most traded commodity as there are lots of other agricultural goods that have a significantly larger share of the market, like needed items, say rice?
If it's only the value, then the article should just say value, but it doesn't say that. I don't know that if the measurement of trade is in dollars, although that would certainly make it easier to understand. The Wikipedia article lists units and dollars.
The Euronext lists units like this,
  • Robusta futures, Unit of trading: Five tonnes
  • Options on Robusta Coffee Futures, Unit of trading: One Robusta Coffee Futures contract, $1 per tonne
Another site describes trade in the commodity coffee in this way (I'll post the URL tomorrow, but searching this should find it): Trade – World coffee exports in 2003/4 are forecasted by the USDA to fall to a 3-year low of 85.87 million bags, down 5% from 90.86 million in 2002/3. The main reason for the decline in exports was simply the lower overall production of coffee in 2003/4. Brazil’s exports in 2003/4 fell sharply by 17% to 24.5 million bags as a result of the poor harvest. The US imports virtually all of its coffee consumption.
In this case trade is in bags, in another its in tonnes, and you think it is in dolllars.
The units for oil are different, the unit for Arabicas is much smaller than the Robusta unit, also. I think the sentence needs to have sufficient background information that a layman can understand at the very least, what is going on, even before it is decided whether it is true or not. KP Botany 04:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I have read Wild; he does not have a source for his figure. But you are right, it is not about that book, as this is a phrase that is tossed around a lot in many places - whether they say "most traded," "most valuable," or "most important." Wild is no better and no worse than any other author (although better referencing would have made his book much more useful). Your confusion demonstrates exactly the problem, and this is what I am trying to get you to understand. You appear to be fixated on this one point, the definition of "most traded" and proving that coffee is not the "second most traded"--universally, all the time. First understand that in books, scientific literature, press releases, reports and on the internet, "most traded" is used interchangeably with "most valuable" and "most important." You can verify this for yourself. This alone should indicate that something is not right. "Most traded" as a phrase has absolutely no meaning in and of itself, and yet people keep tossing around this "fact" as though it was in some way verifiable. You say that "most traded" does not have to do with export values. Quoting: "In this case trade is in bags, in another its in tonnes, and you think it is in dolllars." In fact, it's both--people pay dollars (or Euros) for bags of coffee. Regardless of which exchange it's sold on, or what unit it's sold in, it is sold for currency. If you want to compare trade in different products using bags of coffee as your measure, then the discussion becomes meaningless, because we can't compare different products in any other terms besides value. You can't compare trade in bags of coffee, for example, to barrels of crude oil or ounces of gold. Trade is measured in value. We have to be clear on that or there is really no discussion to be had.

I can also tell you that I have spent a great deal of time tracing back the many permutations of the "second most" statements to the primary secondary sources, and--when there are primary sources--it is always total export value that is listed in the primary secondary source, not contracts or some other measure (for example, nearly all U.S. mentions of this statistic can be traced back to is a CIA fact book from the late 1980's, which talks about export values). If the statistic has changed from "most valuable" to "most traded" over the years, that just underscores how careless authors have become in checking their sources and expressing information accurately. I do admit that I fell prey to this confusion as well in the way I titled this thread, and I have changed that, and I have a note below about how the Wiki might be changed to be more accurate.

I have already provided you with my source - the UN Food and Agriculture Organization - for data on the actual value of agricultural products sold. Since coffee is below second in those rankings, then it follows that it is below second in the rankings of all commodities (agricultural and non-agricultural), regardless of what non-agricultural commodites may have a higher total value than the top agricultural commodity (wheat). I don't have to know what the first and second commodities are--and I don't--to prove that coffee isn't second. From the FAO I know that, at minimum, coffee is below wheat, soybeans, maize, palm oil, and sugar. I.e., not second. It also changes places nearly every year.

If you think there is some other definition of "most traded," please tell me what it is and we can go from there. It is also possible to define it in terms of contracts traded, but this has more to do with speculation than it has bearing on the real importance of coffee trade, and this is not how most authors have been defining it.

I'm not using Google searches to prove that something's not true. I used them to demonstrate how far this myth has spread, and how easy it is for a writer to find something to cite--even something that seems pretty official. I have plenty of examples of peer-reviewed journal articles that say the same thing about coffee - and still confuse the terminology. Wild almost certainly used one of these articles for the reference in his book (though we will never know). And I have traced the citations in these articles to the primary secondary sources, and the sources are all fifteen or more years old. I have asked researchers where they got their numbers, and they always give me sources that are either outdated themselves, or that cite sources that are. So what I can say with confidence is this: the people who are giving this number are not verifying their facts, and the market has changed dramatically since this statistic was first published. It is too easy to accept something as common knowledge and repeat it, without taking the time to check.

Meanwhile, what is to be done about the Wiki page? I didn't write the phrase "second most commonly traded commodity in the world," someone else did (which is why I titled thhe thread the way I did), but I changed some of the wording around it to show that it was not longer true. But KP Botany is right, the wording is very confusing as "second most commonly traded" is not defined. I am inclined to say it would be better to just delete the two sentences starting with "In some years in the 1980's. . ." leaving in the part about coffee being the seventh most valuable agricultural export in 2003. I wanted to leave in the part about the "second most" not being true, because this is such a persistent myth, but prehaps the top paragraph is not the best place for this (though that was where the original sentence was). I will also check Portillo (ref #4) tomorrow to see exactly what measurement he is referring to. I am pretty sure it is actually export value. If that is the case, it will be really easy to just change the sentence from "second most commonly traded commodity in the world (measured by monetary volume)" to "second most valuable export commodity."

By the way, KP Botany, just so you know in 1986, according to the FAO data, coffee actually WAS the #1 agricultural export crop in terms of value--above rice, wheat, soy and all the other big ones. In 1987, 1994-95, and 1997-2000 it was second--just below wheat (but still not second to oil!). My hypothesis is actualy that 1986 is where the original quotation came from. I can't verify this, because I don't know what non-agricultural commodities may have been above coffee. User:Margareta 03:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

This post obfuscates rather clarifies what you meant, and, essentially you're saying you can't and won't prove or establish what it is you mean, but you will resort to ad hominem attacks of anyone who asks for sources.
Or, in other words, "Coffee IS the second most traded commodity after oil." I got it. KP Botany 19:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Um... wow. Calm down, please. I have not attacked you. All I have done is try to understand the question you are asking, why you do not consider the UN Statistical Database an acceptable source, and what alternate definition of trade you are using that does not involve value of goods traded. You are, of course, free to believe anything you like, but Wikipedia's policy is that all content must be verifiable. Specifically, the policy is: "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it." In other words, you can't mke a categorical statement ("Coffee IS the second most traded commodity after oil") and then challenge others to prove you wrong. You have to provide support for your statement. The statement "Coffee IS the second most traded commodity after oil" is not verified and has no supporting data, and thus does not belong on Wikipedia.

But this is just getting silly. Perhaps we could get an opinion, or some input, from a knowledgable third party?Margareta 19:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

That's okay, I think that asking you again to provide a source is pointless. If you had one, you simply would have posted it, instead of providing a URL to a website that doesn't say anything about the topic you introduced. Telling me to "calm down" in lieu of addressing the issue is an ad hominem attack, you've changed the focus from your claim that "coffee [isn't] the second most traded commodity after oil" to your presumed cyberspace reading of my emotional state--my emotional state is not an issue.
You can't and won't provide a quote or source. Or, in other words, "Coffee IS the second most traded commodity after oil." I got it. Until you provide a quote or source, that's enough. KP Botany 20:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The link is a database, so would not have "a single sentence" or list of top commodities. However, I just went back to the Trade Statistics page ([14]), and fortunately the FAO is now publishing selected statistics in tables (they weren't when I originally looked this up). Until someone else provides an alternate one, I am taking as the definition of "most traded" the total value of exports worldwide. Therefore:

From Table C.16 (http://www.fao.org/es/ess/yearbook/vol_1_1/pdf/c16.pdf):

     Wheat $15.5 billion dollars

From Table C.19 (http://www.fao.org/es/ess/yearbook/vol_1_1/pdf/c19.pdf):

     Sugar $10.0 billion dollars
     Coffee $6.5 billion dollars

Thus, regardless of what other commodities not listed in these tables may be above or between coffee, wheat, or sugar, coffee--being third in this list--cannot be second overall.

If you think there is another definition of trade that should be used, please provide it. My justification for this definition is that the sentence I deleted, which said "Coffee is the second most commonly traded commodity in the world (measured by monetary volume), trailing only crude oil (and its products) as a source of foreign exchange to developing countries" cited a source (http://www.ico.org/coffee_story.asp) that actually says "It is one of the most valuable primary products in world trade, in many years second in value only to oil as a source of foreign exchange to developing countries"[emphasis added]. You can see that, besides the fact that the source actually talked about "most valuable," not "most traded," it also qualified the statement by saying "in many years," whereas the editor who cited it made the statement unqualified, and the "second to" clause only refers to developing countries, whereas the editor made the statement all-inclusive.Margareta 20:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems we are not the first to discuss this. See the (significantly shorter!) discussion on the Featured Article Candidates archive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Coffee/Archive1 Margareta 22:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

While working on another project, I landed on an additional reference. This one lists top 10 commodities in terms of total volume contracts, the other possible definition of trade. Coffee did not even make the top 10 list: Rebecca Holz. Trading Volume: International Futures Trading Volume Increases 41%. Futures Industry Magazine, October 2006. (The table is on the last page) --Margareta 19:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

"Social Aspects of Coffee"

I wonder if this is the most appropriate title for a section talking about things like coffee houses. "Social Aspects of Coffee" to me implies a section that will be talking about things like labor, effects of price swings, fair trade, etc. I think it would be best to retitle this section something like "Coffee and Society" and add a new section called "Social and Environmental Concerns," where the instances mentioning things like "fair trade," "shade grown" coffee, organic, etc can be collected together into a coherent piece. Or perhaps, inctead of having a separate section to talk about the history and importance of coffee in society, that information can be collected together under "Etymology and History." Margareta 04:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Flavours?

I want to know, what are the list of coffee flavours available? --AAA! (AAAA) 02:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a pretty open-ended and not-well-defined list you want. What exactly is a "flavour"? Do you mean the effect of different types of beans and different roasting styles? Or various added non-coffee solids to the grounds? Or various added flavorings to the grounds? DMacks 05:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Date Error?

The article states that a theological court banned coffee in 1532, but the ban was reversed in 1524. Did these dates get transposed, or was there some other typo involved?

Starbucks

Starbucks has joined fair trade? The link cited seems be campaigning to get Starbucks to go fair trade! 86.131.246.54 21:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Starbucks does sell some certified Fair Trade coffee. I don't know about P&G though, and you are right, the link doesn't support the statement made--actually, it doesn't mention either roaster. I have removed the unsupported part of the sentence.--Margareta 07:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

How to abbreviate "milliliter"?

In the opening paragraph, one user changed the abbreviation "ml" to "mL", citing Wikipedia standards. I ask Wikipedians to in the future please identify the specific standard claimed, or link to it. Having a bachelor's degree in engineering, I am very familiar with the standard units of measurement. I spent several minutes trying to find the standards relating to *units of measurement* in the *Manual of Style*. Then I undid the use of "mL". Then I *did* find it via main section 11, "Scientific Style". Eventually, the answer was in the main article, International System of Units: "mL" is a widely *recommended alternative* to "ml". So I am about to restore "mL". Hurmata 04:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for sending you on such a long trail:( DMacks 05:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)