User talk:Coemgenus/archive2006

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Contents 1 Wikipedia survey 2 Inclusion of the episcopal succession 2.1 Source and copyright 2.2 Relevance 3 Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot 4 Some above average vandalism I came across 5 August Esperanza Newsletter 6 Paul Kalmanovitz 7 Unspecified source for Image:Tyrconnel.jpg 8 September Esperanza Newsletter 9 Philly meetup 10 Thanks 11 November Esperanza Newsletter 12 Unspecified source for Image:Anne Hyde.jpg 13 What are the odds? 14 Northeast Philadelphia 15 Northeast News Gleaner 16 My recent RfA 17 You helped choose Yeast as this week's WP:AID winner 18 Roosevelt Mall 19 My Request for Adminship

[edit] Wikipedia survey

Hi. I'm doing a survey of Wikipedia editors as part of a class research project. It's quick, anonymous, and the data will be made available to the Wikipedia community later this month. Would you like to take part? More info here. Thanks! Nonplus 23:54, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion of the episcopal succession

I object to the inclusion of episcopal succession charts:

• If they are obtained from Catholic Hierarchy which is © David M. Cheney 2005, it is not fair use, but a copy. Without a declaration from the copyright holder, I believe it to be a violation of his copyright.
• If they are obtained from any other source, that source should be credited.
• In these biographical articles of bishops, their immediate consecrator might be mentioned in the article text, but the rest of the historical episcopal lineage is irrelevant except in the case where it is disputed. That refers to the validity of orders.
• Who they consecrated is likewise irrelevant.
• The succession box for the office held by the bishop (i.e. diocesan ordinary, curial appointment) on the other hand is relevant.
• If Cheney makes a correction, how is that propagated back to the Wikipedia mirror?
• If a Wikipedia reader detects an error, how is that communicated back to Cheney?
• Biographical articles on bishops should focus on what they did, not their status.

In general, I oppose "pump and dump" from other reference sources into the Wikipedia. It makes the Wikipedia someone else's content fork and it's cheap content.

The greater problem faced by Catholic Wikipedians is the locked-in exclusion of obvious facts such as "The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ" in favor of "scholars have shown the Catholic Church was not founded by Jesus Christ." There is no problem at all connecting the 21st century Catholic hierarchy to the 17th century Catholic hierarchy.

With reference to the Cardinal Spellman article: It's is a terrible article for one who had so much influence both in the Catholic Church but also in the history of New York and the United States. It is not helped by the adding a huge text block of his episcopal lineage. It's sad that Spellman's bio doesn't draw the interest of Catholic Wikipedians for improving the article, but only the interest of homosexual advocates for the detraction of Spellman's character. I hope to put some more time into the Spellman article. Tragically, only the Cooney biography is available as a resource and even there, the obsession is with the rumors and hearsay excluded from the text. patsw 16:57, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

---

The state of the Cardinal Spellman article is disappointing, I agree. I don't know much about him, and I hope you are able to find more information to fill out the article. As to the matter of the succession:

• I disagree with your contention that the information is copyrighted. These are historical facts, not artistic expressions. As the Wikipedia article on copyright states, "Copyright law covers only the particular form or manner in which ideas or information have been manifested, the "form of material expression". It is not designed or intended to cover the actual idea, concepts, facts, styles, or techniques which may be embodied in or represented by the copyright work." (emphasis added) You're right that is it not fair use: fair use is an exception to the copyright rules; this situation concerns something (facts) outside of those works altogether. A photograph of the website, on the other hand, would likely be a copyright violation. A similar question (about far more questionable material) was recently litigated in Baigent v. Random House

• I disagree also that the episcopal lineage is "irrelevant" to the article. This manifestation of the legacy of the Church is part of the essential character of a bishop. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "To fulfill their exalted mission, 'the apostles were endowed by Christ with a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit coming upon them, and by the imposition of hands they passed on to their auxilliaries the gift of the Spirit, which is transmitted down to our day through episcopal consecration.'" (#1556). A reader of the article might be interested in something so important.

• You say that "the historical episcopal lineage is irrelevant except in the case where it is disputed." This troubles me, because it would mean that the only place an episcopal lineage could be researched on Wikipedia would be when it was the lineage of a schismatic. Would you document those orders that are dubious and ignore those that are recognised? It would be a shame if the only examples of apostolic succession a researcher could find would be those of the most irregular sort.

• As for future possible discrepancies between Wikipedia and Catholic Hierarchy, I confess that I do not know the answer. I would hope that any Wikipedian who discovered a discrepancy would notify Mr. Cheney, but I can't be certain that he would. But the same could be said of any material that is documented both on Wikipedia and on another site. Wikipedia aims to be the "sum of human knowledge." What's wrong with adding some more?

--Coemgenus 18:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source and copyright

The question of copyright law is outside of my competence. Neither you nor I are going to resolve if Catholic-Hierarchy meets the threshold of originality criterion. It's a matter for the Wikipedia Foundation and David Cheney to work out should it come to that. As it stands now, David Cheney claims All Rights Reserved and in my reading of applicable Wikipedia policy is the we're obligated to honor that.

Should you decide to honor Cheney's copyright and use the material under fair use, The Wikipedia has this boilerplate request to copyright holders for permission to incorporate material as fair use.

As a moral matter, I believe you should have the permission of David Cheney to use his research and to let him decide how it should be copied and attributed. patsw 20:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relevance

The validity of the episcopal succession (e.s.) of a bishop is always relevant in the abstract — but as an editor of biographical articles on Catholic bishops, I would only include a discussion of the e.s. when it had been disputed. The actual detailed e.s. of a bishop, whose validity of orders is not questioned, is irrelevant and should be not included in a specific Wikipedia biographical article.

As a matter of editing and creating good articles, it also brings up the question of how much weight should be given in terms of the text to a specific bishop's e.s. and what weight to what he did in his role as bishop. It would create a truly poor collection of articles to auto-format the Catholic-Hierarchy data on birth, ordination, assignments, and episcopal succession and add nothing else.

No existing compiliation of biographical articles on Catholic bishops that I am aware of include each bishop's e.s.

The general question of apostolic succession is covered in the article on Apostolic Succession which, compared to other religion articles, is quite compatible with Catholic teaching. patsw 20:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

---

We seem to be in disagreement, and I doubt further discussion between us will resolve it. Should we ask for a third opinion? I'd suggest a poll on the site, but I don't know that it gets enough traffic to give a good sample.

--Coemgenus 20:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I've asked some experienced Catholic editors to have a look. patsw 02:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Hiya, having been asked to comment I want to say this:

• I have no clue about the copyright situation and hence no view on this.
• I don't think the "episcopal lineage" should be included into an individual bishops article, just as we don't include the complete succession list of his see (or sees). The same goes for secular rulers: we don't include the whole succession list or genealogies (which would be the parallel for the episcopal lineage). However, we may very well link to such lineages.

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 11:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot

SuggestBot predicts that you will enjoy editing some of these articles. Have fun!

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Cleanup Speculation about the papal conclave, 2005 Charles Spencer, 9th Earl Spencer Titus Oates Merge Grand Alliance Palace of Placentia Earl of Orkney Add Sources Wilhelmina of the Netherlands Lord of the Bedchamber Charles Montagu, 1st Earl of Halifax Wikify Hohenlohe Imperial Presidency George Montague, 1st Earl of Halifax Expand History of the Republic of Ireland Jules Cardinal Mazarin Francisco Goya

SuggestBot picks articles in a number of ways based on other articles you've edited, including straight text similarity, following wikilinks, and matching your editing patterns against those of other Wikipedians. It tries to recommend only articles that other Wikipedians have marked as needing work. Your contributions make Wikipedia better -- thanks for helping.

If you have feedback on how to make SuggestBot better, please tell me on SuggestBot's talk page. Thanks from ForteTuba, SuggestBot's caretaker.

P.S. You received these suggestions because your name was listed on the SuggestBot request page. If this was in error, sorry about the confusion. -- SuggestBot 04:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some above average vandalism I came across

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_Purcell&diff=prev&oldid=68926461

Destructive, sure, but it's more creative than most

--Coemgenus 02:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] August Esperanza Newsletter

Program Feature: To-Do List The Esperanza To-Do List is a place where you may list any request, big or small, for assistance. If you need help with archiving your usertalk, for example, all you need to do is list it here and somebody will help you out. Likewise, if you need help with some area of editing on Wikipedia, list it here! Again, any matter, trivial or not, can be placed on this page. However, all matters listed on this page must not be of an argumentative nature. You do not need to be a member of Esperanza (or this program) to place or fulfill requests on this page. If you don't have any requests, consider coming by and fulfilling a few! This program has not been very active, but has lots of potential! What's New? In order to help proposed programs become specific enough to make into full-fledged programs, the In development section of the proposals page has been created. Proposals that are promising, but need to be organized in more detail are listed here. Please take a look at what is there, and help the proposals turn into programs. To improve both the layout and text of the front page, in an attempt to clarify the image of Esperanza, the front page is going to have some redesigning take place. Please take your creative minds to Wikipedia:Esperanza/Front page redesign to brainstorm good ideas. Many thanks to MiszaBot, courtesy of Misza13, for delivering the newsletter.

The last AC meeting (full log) In order to make sure all users who join Esperanza are welcomed, a list of volunteers who are willing to welcome new Esperanzians is at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Members#Esperanza_welcomers. Please add yourself if you are interested; we want to make sure all new Esperanza members are welcomed! The In development section of the proposals page has been created. Proposals page: Some proposals have been moved to the aforementioned "In development" section, some have been left as a proposal, and others have been archived. For those proposals that were a good idea but didn't necessarily constitute a program, General Esperanzial Actions has been created. Two small pieces of charter reform will be decided on in a straw poll at Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Governance. One involves filling the position of any councillors who may leave, the other involves reforming the charter. Until cooperation with the Kindness Campaign is better defined, it remains as a proposed program. There is a page for discussing the front page redesign. Signed... Natalya, Banes, Celestianpower, EWS23, FireFox, Freakofnurture, and Titoxd 05:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Paul Kalmanovitz

Hey, thanks for creating the article on Paul Kalmanovitz. It's one of those that I'd been meaning to get around to, but never seemed to have the time. Anyway, thanks again. --Brownings 03:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, glad you liked it. I kept coming across his name in articles (Wikipedia and otherwise) about beer and thought he ought to be on here. --Coemgenus 02:10, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unspecified source for Image:Tyrconnel.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Tyrconnel.jpg. I notice the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this file yourself, then there needs to be a justification explaining why we have the right to use it on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you did not create the file yourself, then you need to specify where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the file also doesn't have a copyright tag, then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Fair use, use a tag such as {{Non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Fritz S. (Talk) 12:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] September Esperanza Newsletter

Program Feature: Barnstar Brigade Here in Wikipedia there are hundreds of wikipedians whose work and efforts go unappreciated. One occasionally comes across editors who have thousands of good edits, but because they may not get around as much as others, their contributions and hard work often go unnoticed. As Esperanzians we can help to make people feel appreciated, be it by some kind words or the awarding of a Barnstar. This is where the Barnstar Brigade comes in. The object of this program is to seek out the people which deserve a Barnstar, and help them feel appreciated. With your help, we can recognize more dedicated editors! What's New? September elections are upon us! Anyone wishing to be a part of the Advisory Council may list themselves as a candidate from 18 September until 24 September, with the voting taking place from 25 September to 30 September. Those who wish to help with the election staff should also list themselves! Appreciation Week, a program currently in development, now has its own subpage! Share your good ideas on how to make it awesome there! The Esperanza front page has been redesigned! Many thanks to all who worked hard on it. Many thanks to MiszaBot, courtesy of Misza13, for delivering the newsletter.

The last AC meeting (full log) The proposals page has been updated, with some proposals being archived. Since the program in development Appretiaion week is getting lots of good ideas, it now has its own subpage. The September 2006 Council elections will open for nominations on 18 September 2006. The voting will run from 25 September 2006 until 30 September 2006. If you wish to be a candidate or a member of the elections staff, please list yourself! The new Esperanza front page design has but put up - many thanks to all who worked on it! TangoTango has written a script for a bot that will list new members of Esperanza, which will help those who welcome new Esperanzains greatly! Signed... Natalya, Banes, Celestianpower, EWS23, FireFox, Freakofnurture, and Titoxd 04:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Although having the newsletter appear on everyone's userpage is desired, this may not be ideal for everyone. If, in the future, you wish to receive a link to the newsletter, rather than the newsletter itself, you may add yourself to Wikipedia:Esperanza/Newsletter/Opt Out List.

[edit] Philly meetup

Hi, Coemgenus! There will be a Wikipedia Meetup in Philadelphia on 4 November. If you're interested in coming, RSVP by editing Wikipedia:Meetup/Philadelphia 2 to reflect the likelihood of your being able to attend. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me on my talk page. Hopefully, we'll all see you (and each other) on the 4th! --CComMack (t•c) 17:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

• Hope to see you there! --evrik 16:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Hi there Coemgenus. That was a very nice surprise to find on my talk page. I noticed you also made some improvements to the article - I hope you still like it. Thanks for your kind words on this little known war. It is much appreciated Raymond Palmer 21:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Well spotted! I've re-uploaded the image. I thought the shaded boxes might be more controversial, but so far in the peer review no one's complained - it may even catch on! Although we'll see if the article goes for A-class review. Thanks for the help btw, there is alot of editing it seems. Raymond Palmer 19:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] November Esperanza Newsletter

Program Feature: Admin Coaching (needs coaches!) Admin Coaching needs coaches!!! If you are an administrator, or even a generally experienced user, do consider signing up to be a coach. Admin Coaching, now being coordinated by HighwayCello, is a program for people who want help learning some of the more subtle aspects of Wikipedia policy and culture. People are matched with experienced users who are willing to offer coaching. The program is designed for people who have figured out the basics of editing articles; they're not newcomers any more, but they might want some help in learning new roles. In this way, Esperanza would help keep hope alive for Wikipedia because we would always be grooming the next generation of admins. What's New? The Tutorial Drive is a new Esperanza program! In an effort to make complicated processes on Wikipedia easier for everyone, Esperanza working to create and compile a list of tutorials about processes here on Wikipedia. Consider writing one! A discussion on how Esperanza relates to the encyclopedia has been started; please add your thoughts. Many thanks to MiszaBot, courtesy of Misza13, for delivering the newsletter.

The last AC meeting (full log) The list of proposed programs has been updated, with some proposals being archived. There is now a new program: the Tutorial Drive! Consider writing a tutorial on something you are good at doing on Wikipedia. The suggestion of adding a cohesive look to all the Esperanza pages is being considered; join the discussion if you are interested! In order to make a useful interlanguage welcome template, those involved in translation projects will be asked what English Wikipedia policies are most important and confusing to editors coming from other language Wikipedias. A discussion of Esperanza's role in Wikipedia is being held, with all thoughts of all Esperanzians wanted! Shreshth91 informed everyone that he will be leaving the Esperanza council as life is rather busy; his spot will be filled by the runner up from the last election, HighwayCello. Signed... Natalya, Banes, Celestianpower, EWS23, FireFox, The Halo, Shreshth91 and HighwayCello 20:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Although having the newsletter appear on everyone's userpage is desired, this may not be ideal for everyone. If, in the future, you wish to receive a link to the newsletter, rather than the newsletter itself, you may add yourself to Wikipedia:Esperanza/Newsletter/Opt Out List.

[edit] Unspecified source for Image:Anne Hyde.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Anne Hyde.jpg. I notice the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this file yourself, then there needs to be a justification explaining why we have the right to use it on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you did not create the file yourself, then you need to specify where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the file also doesn't have a copyright tag, then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Fair use, use a tag such as {{Non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Shyam ^(T/C) 15:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What are the odds?

That we'd revert the same vandal on the same page within 3 minutes of each other? JCO312 21:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Niagara Falls JCO312 21:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Northeast Philadelphia

Sorry I missed that part in the Northeast....thought I got it all Shoessss 16:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Northeast News Gleaner

Stub created; feel free to fact-check. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 19:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My recent RfA

Thank you for considering my RfA. It was a very humbling yet surprisingly gratifying experience. I am grateful for all the constructive comments that will undoubtedly make me a better contributer, and hopefully a stronger candidate in the future. Grika 15:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You helped choose Yeast as this week's WP:AID winner

Thank you for your support of the Article Improvement Drive. This week Yeast was selected to be improved to featured article status. Hope you can help.

AzaBot 03:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roosevelt Mall

I've added the "{{prod}}" template to the article Roosevelt Mall, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but I don't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and I've explained why in the deletion notice (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, or, if you disagree with the notice, discuss the issues at Talk:Roosevelt Mall. You may remove the deletion notice, and the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached, or if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria. Oo7565 22:00, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My Request for Adminship