Talk:Coelacanth
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[edit] Naming
When I first heard of this fish it was referenced to as Sealicanth. I typed that in to learn more about it but obviously coelacanth came up. I soon realized they were the same thing but the name Sealicanth is never mentioned at all. Should it be added? 75.132.243.204 23:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC) ==(Sp.: Menado or Manado?)==:A Google search turns up a lot more "Manado Tua" (1210) than "Menado Tua" (58).
I'm Indonesian, and it's 'Manado'
I'm a greek and its Κοιλάκανθος (Coelacanth), meaning hollow spine or belly spine, not Sealacanthos (Greeklish for sea spine). Alternatively for "Sealacanth" more appropriate would be "Thallassacanthus/Thallattacanthus" or "Pelagacanthus" for Greek or "Marinacanthus" for a mixed latin-greek classical compound.--92.118.191.48 (talk) 14:52, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] request
I'd like to see more information on the phisical and evolutionary features of the coelacanth. --65.41.115.80 14:41, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
- http: slash slash www.for-children.com slash evolution06.html For Children —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.82.63.2 (talk) 21:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC).
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- Caution: it appears that creationists don't want their children to know about lungfish and mudskippers. Shhhh...... dave souza, talk 22:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] questions
"They are believed to be the ancestors of many modern day amphibians due to the lobed fins and location of the fish." - Is this really true? And are these fish really pregnant? Burschik 15:56, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
No, this isn't true. They're RELATIVES of the ancestors of all tetrapods and of the concestor with lobefinned fish. The distinction should be obvious to any student of evolution and/or genetics. I recommend The Ancestor's Tale by Richard Dawkins which deals with the subject. ThomasWinwood 19:02, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Marjorie knew
From the accounts I've read and interviews with her on TV, Marjorie knew _exactly_ what she had seen in the fish market and didn't need Smith to identify the fish in any way. However, being a female scientist at the time, it required the "confirmation" of a respected male biologist before the rest of the community sat up and noticed.
[edit] Conservation status
An anonymous user has changed the conservation status to "Critical". The article doesn't seem to suggest that this is true, and no source is given. I've reverted it for now, but can anyone confirm either way? Agentsoo 10:57, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
- Cites lists it as endangered, I'm not entirely sure whether it should be "critical" by Wiki terms, so just put endangered. See http://sea.unep-wcmc.org/isdb/CITES/Taxonomy/tax-species-result.cfm?displaylanguage=eng&Genus=Latimeria&Species=chalumnae&source=animals&Country=&tabname=all~main Vicki Rosenzweig 21:39, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] photo?
Where did the photo come from? I was under the impression these things could not be kept in captivity alive for long and that there weren't any at aquariums; who took this photo? --csloat 09:28, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
- There are a couple pickled ones on display in museums, photo looks like one of those (they are supposed to be blue in life, not gray). Stan 11:59, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] References
During some related research I have found the following reference:
“The coelacanth is the only surviving member of the ancient group of fishes from which modern four-footed land animals are thought to have evolved” Maton, Anthea, Jean Hopkins, Susan Johnson, David LaHart, Maryanna Quon Warner, and Jill D. Wright (1997), Exploring Life Science (Upper Saddle River, NJ: Prentice Hall), second edition, p. 105
also
“The phylogenetic analyses of two RAG proteins presented here were based on the biggest nuclear sequence data set collected so far on the tetrapod origin question. These data strongly support the hypothesis that the lungfishes and not the coelacanth are the closest relatives of the land vertebrates. This result emphasizes the importance of study of all aspects of the biology and genomics of extinct and extant lungfish; our closest ‘fish’ relatives” Brinkmann, Henner, Byrappa Venkatesh, Sydney Brenner, and Axel Meyer (2004), “Nuclear Protein-Coding Genes Support Lungfish and not the Coelacanth as the Closest Living Relatives of Land Vertebrates,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, 101[14]:4900-4905, April 6.
all thoughts/comments appreciated
- I think there should be something in the article about this, either way - at present the only mention is the (creatonist) guy who found one... sheridan 23:00, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] article in the guardian
Someone should take a squiz at this article from the guardian about new fears of the Coelacanth's extinction. The bellman 23:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] meaning "hollow spine" in Greek
This is erroneous, it means thorny abdomen, i have corrected this.
Weren't coelacanths named after Marjorie Courteney-Latimer? So it seems a bit pointless to have to meaning on the page.
[edit] Species
It is worth noting that the Sulawesi coelacanth is a different species. I have to check my source. Bibliomaniac15 21:01, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Just to add some info: the species found in Sulawesi have thrived about (if I am correct. I don't remember the details and it is 4 AM right now) 3-8 million years longer than the other species and is distinctly bigger in size.
[edit] Already known
Weren't the natives aware of this fish...and didn't they call it a gombassa? Meaning a useless or mistake or inedible fish.
[edit] Seperate Article?
Much of this article seems to deal specifically with the modern species of coelocanth (the biology, discovery, etc). I've tried to modify it to reflect that coelocanths constitute an entire order of fish, not just the one that happens to still be alive, but maybe it would be better if the info on Latimeria was branched off into an article like Modern coelocanth or something?Dinoguy2 20:49, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
- Our rule is typically to give precedence to modern forms and let the fossils shift for themselves, as in ginkgo for instance. But the article seems a bit awkward in shifting back and forth. Since common usage is invariably to say "coelacanth" even when only Latimeria is meant, I think we're stuck with putting the bulk of modern species info here. What I'd like to see now is a more careful split of the article into modern vs fossil, but within the same article. Then if the two parts seem sufficiently decoupled, and the article is getting long, put general/fossil info into what are now redirs, such as Coelacanthiformes. Stan 21:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Biological characteristics
80 kg average? So the 25 kg Indonesian example is way below average?
- Quite right, 80 kg is very large. The largest I'm aware of was a female of 98 kg (216 lb), measuring 179 cm (5 ft 10½ in) long, caught in Mozambique 1991. This article mentiones the specimen under "reproduction". The longest measured specimen was 186 cm (6 ft 1¼ in), i believe. Anshelm '77
WHAT??? I'm confused. How come there's this thing about Indonesian species weighs only about 25 kg? It's 120! At least the latest founding of coelacanth in June 2006 at Sulawesi weighs something like that.
[edit] Taxonomy for the possible South African species
This article suggests that the fish found near South Africa are a separate species than in the Comoros, with scientific names of Latimeria sp., and L. chalumnae given respectively. However, I doubt this would be the case, if the South African population would be given full species status. Note that the first specimen was found on the coasts of South Africa, meaning that the name Latimeria chalumnae would really belong to the South African type. And this article gives a hint for a scientific name for the Comoros type, as it was initially described as Malania anjounae, so placing it in the same genus with the two other species would make it Latimeria anjounae. Anshelm '77
[edit] Poss new image
Is this any good for the article? (taken at Natural History Museum, London) - Ballista 05:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
The picture in the article of the one at Oxford, I feel, is the best. It does justice to the size of the creature, it's vibrant colour and you can make out a lot of detail. --AmyRoxYourSox 15:27, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
- I've seen the Natural History Museum specimen. Its pickled in formaldehyde and its in a pretty bad shape (no eyes, skin and scales peeling). --Eqdoktor 10:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Keeping a Coelacanth in Captivity
I'm under the impression that bringing a coelacanth to the surface and keeping it alive faces the complication that the coelacanth has obviously adapted to the pressure and is unable to survive under the surface pressure. I'm sure light factors and the stress of being bought to the surface also contributes to the problem. I don't pretend to be a coelacanth expert, but surely a specialy adapted pressurised cell would solve these problems. What is preventing experts from doing this? Is it lack of funding? --AmyRoxYourSox 13:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Derivation
The name Coelacanth does indeed mean 'hollow spine'. The Ancient Greek derivation can mean either 'thorn' or 'spine' (and thence the 'backbone' of an animal) (Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon). I have therefore reverted, as well as doing some incidental tidy-editing. - Ballista 18:16, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Poisonous
I'm a young student from the U.S. and am reading the book entitled "Mysterious Monsters and Great Sea creatures". Can anyone tell me if these fish are poisonous or deadly?
- Not. Apparently edible, since the first findings of both populations turned up in fish markets. --Wetman 02:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
But if the Coelacanths are endangered, why would they put them in fish markets? Wouldn't it make them more endangered?W00tPerson 15:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
They were being seld in fish markets in third-world African countries who obviously were misinformed about everything concerning the fish's population. 75.132.243.204 23:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Or more likely just didn't realise they were endangered...not misinformed...they were thought extinct 86.152.106.181 21:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)ClimberDave 21:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- They are edible, just a laxative oil in the spine makes it...unpleasant. Sometimes it's consumed dry, but it's not a big delicacy. bibliomaniac15 22:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Past tense v. Present tense
Since the Coelacanth is still alive, I'm assuming that the entire article should be in the present tense. The following sentences are in the past tense:
- Toothlike spines called denticles covered the upper half of each scale, making it rough and scratchy. The smooth lower half of each scale was protected by the denticles of the two scales that overlapped it. These rough, layered scales provided amrmorlike protection against predators and the rough edges of rocks.
The only possible reason I could imagine for putting part of the article in the past tense is if these features of Coelacanths have changed over the millennia so that these statements would no longer be true of present-day Coelacanths. I do not believe this is the case for the features in this paragraph, so I will change them to be in the present tense like the rest of the article.
If there are in fact parts of the article which should be in the past tense, discuss it here and change them. Otherwise fix everything to be in the present tense like I am doing. -- Skyfaller 22:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Location or depth
In 1988, National Geographic photographer Hans Fricke was the first to photograph the species in its natural habitat, 180 m (590 ft 7 in) off Grand Comore's west coast.
Is that "180 m off the coast", or "off the coast, at a depth of 180 m?" —Michael Z. 2007-01-22 02:02 Z
- This (scroll down to 1986/1987 in the chronology) seems to associate the target of those dives at a 180m depth. Will keep trying to dig up something more clear. Kuru talk 03:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Spine
I heard the coelacanth's spine is made of a tube filled with a liquide. Is this true and what type of liquide is it called? Did the scientists make a name for it yet?
- Yes, it does contain a liquid in this spine. I'm not sure if scientists have given it a name, but it's what gives coelacanths their laxative properties. bibliomaniac15 22:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks alot. I can really use it for my project W00tPerson 22:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Power
How much force can a coelacanth push in pounds?W00tPerson 22:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Latimeria
A lot of information in the article seems to be specific to the modern coelocanth species, and doesn't necissarily apply to the dozens of extinct coelocanths. I created the article Latimeria to refer specifically to the living types. Ideally, this page should probably discuss the group as a whole, with the info on modern forms split off into Latimeria (or Modern Coelocanth). Any thoughts? Dinoguy2 05:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
- For 99.99% of our audience, the modern species is what is of primary interest, we should be careful not to lose sight of that. I think the right split for this article is about 50-50 modern vs extinct, with Latimeria as a good home for expanded/extended technical points about the living genus. For instance, behavioral bits, conservation efforts, etc, should be summarized here and more extensive there. The initial discovery deserves 1-2 paragraphs here, but later discoveries need only a sentence, with the details under Latimeria. Stan 15:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
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- As a split, I don't think this is workable as it is now. The Latimeria page is a near carbon copy of the Coelacanth page down to the typo errors. One or the other page needs a rewrite to remove the egregious redundancies. Latimeria = just modern living Coelocanth, Coelacanth = overall view of order. People are updating Latimeria sightings/captures on the Coelacanth page. As has been pointed out, when people think of the modern fish, its Coelacanth not Latimeria. Perhaps a merge back until a serious and complete rewrite of the either of the 2 articles is done? --Eqdoktor 09:45, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Merge done. --Eqdoktor 09:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
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"Coelacanths have modified cosmoid scales, which are thinner than true cosmoid scales, which can only be found on extinct fish." Is this reffering to Latimeria or coelacanths as a clade?
Wikipedia is so unreliable. Coelacanth is the same fish as its ancestors yet the article says it has changed and then doesn't even give any information about Latimera. They are trying to make it sound like it doesn't even remotely resemble the fish, and its all an outright lie. That needs to be changed.
Technically (and obviously) coelacanth isn't english for Coelacanthus? Since the whole group of actinistia is sometimes named after the Coelacanthus genus should not that be mentioned? I think there should be more links or even a merge with Coelacanthus as a genus since Latimeria is also merged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.191.48 (talk) 15:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Anbiguous phrase
"... scientists infer that individual coelacanths may live as long as 80 to 100 years" makes no sense.
[edit] New find in Zanzibar
See [1]. -Mardus 23:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Zanzibar is part of Tanzania, Tanzanian catches has been discussed in some detail in the article - news item has been integrated into the timeline.--Eqdoktor 06:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] new coelacanth fossil find
this story is from livescience.com:
A 400 million-year-old fossilized fin from a strange-looking, primitive fish is shedding light on how fins evolved into limbs that enabled animals to walk on land.
The fossil fin comes from a coelacanth, a type of lobe-finned fish, and provides the only skeletal fin remains to date from the extinct relatives of today's living coelacanths. Scientists spotted the four-inch-long (10 centimeter-long) specimen at Beartooth Butte in northern Wyoming and have dubbed the fish Shoshinia arctopteryx after the Shoshine people and the Shoshone National Forest. When alive, the fish would have been about 18 to 24 inches (46 to 62 centimeters) in length.
The finding, detailed in the July/August issue of the journal Evolution & Development, shows the arrangement of bones within the fossil fin match the fin patterns found in primitive, living ray-finned fishes, such as sturgeons, paddlefishes and sharks.
Surprisingly, however, the patterns don't match the lobe-finned fish's living relative. Until now, scientists had assumed the living coelacanths and their relatives, the lungfish, served as accurate models of their ancestors dating back hundreds of millions of years ago.
"Two living fossils, coelacanths and lungfishes, are in fact not primitive," said lead author Matt Friedman of the University of Chicago. "They are specialized, and they are not particularly good models for understanding the origin of limbs."
read the other half here: http://www.livescience.com/animals/070801_fin_fossil.html Metanoid (talk, email) 01:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Oldest living lineage: what does this mean
I'm not sure this is correct, or at least well worded enough to be clear. Coelacanths are not any older than any other species on the planet, nor are they the only living lineage of jawed fishes: all living jawed fishes are by taxonomic definition living lineages of the first jawed fishes, and all equally old (since they are all still here in the present). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.206.11 (talk) 03:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
- D'you think it might mean something about it being a direct link? I know nothing about this, but it's all I could think it means, otherwise yeah, it needs rewording. --Scareth (talk) 22:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
- This seems like the influence of the "living fossil" fallacy. Not only is it not the oldest living lineage, it's really among the most derived of all fish, as it's closer to tetrapods than anything else. Even if it weren't so misleading, sharks and rays would be the "oldest" (most basal) living lineage of jawed vertebrates. Dinoguy2 (talk) 22:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
