Talk:Cod liver oil

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Doesn't this need references? "On the other hand, the RDA of vitamin D is considered by many to be strongly understated. Many adults don't meet the RDA. More research should be conducted in this area." Not quite, but bordering on weasely.


Just a note, as someone disputed the effects of Cod Liver Oil. I know several studies have shown positive effects of fish oil on depression and exhaustion associated specifically with Multiple Sclerosis the latest on depression was published by the University of Oregon. I have no comment on the other benefits as I have not personally researched them. 205.188.116.10 21:04, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Article Accuracy Disputed

OK, this article definitely needs work. It is more or less an advertisement, and contains statement after statement of unverified and very probably false information. Listing it as a candidate for deletion didn't seem all too wrong, but since some company apparently manufactures "cod liver oil", I thought Wikipedia could use a real article on it.

I am aware that the last person to edit this has added a lot of POV, but the earlier editors also couldn't agree on many things, such as why people don't take cod liver oil anymore (and without any references, no-one can know whether anyone has even done so in the first place - I'm certainly not very sure any such thing has ever been normal).

As children in small-town 1950s USA, my sister and I were indeed given cod liver oil for a while as a dietary supplement; we hated it. Anyway I'm glad that this article is being criticized and objected to. Much of the text smells like an attempt (probably commercially motivated) to establish as "fact" certain statements about nutrition for which no basis is given, if any basis even exists. DSatz 23:25, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
And you say this because as a kid you were forced to eat something you hated? O_o ok, too bad your parents didn't stuff with you mcdonalds and coke. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.106.197.20 (talk) 05:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] List of parts that are especially bad and caught my attention:

1.Once commonly given to children daily as a nutritional supplement, it is rarely given today, probably because of ignorance See history for more information.

As a 70 year old man, I can state with certainly that cod liver oil was routinely given to children in the 1940s. It was put into orange juice. (Actually it floated on the top.) It tasted horrible, but it was intended to add vitamin D. At that time vitamin D was not added to milk, as it is now. Rickets was a "real" disease. (George Hardy -- georgeh@ankerstein.org)

2. also helps fight and prevent heart disease, cancer, depression, Alzheimer's, arthritis, diabetes, ulcers, hyperactivity and many other diseases. Increases your energy level and ability to concentrate. Provides greater resistance to common illnesses such as flu and cold. Helps pregnant women avoid premature births, low birth weight and other complications. That's quite a lot of good effects. I don't believe any of that, since I haven't heard of it from other sources. Feel free to prove me wrong.

3. It is wise to supplement your diet with high quality fish or cod liver oils daily, one of the most highly recommened brands is [deleted brand name] which is purified to the highest standards to ensure freedom from detectable levels of mercury, cadmium, lead, PCBs and 28 other contaminants and is free from chemical modification and processing. No advertising on wikipedia please.

4. due too their unnatural diets (ever seen fish swimming through fields of grain!?). So it is best to avoid all farm raised varieties of fish if you value your health. I'm finding it hard to hold back my sarcasm. I can perfectly honestly say that I've read about fish swimming in "fields of grain" during a recent flood. I can't cite the exact issue of the local newspaper though.

5.Meanwhile, our intake of Omega-6, another fat found in corn, soy, sunflower and other oils, is far too high. Once again, this is nothing but speculation, and without references or general encyclopedic standard I'd rather believe the opposite.


I sincerely hope someone with good information sources on something as obscure as cod liver oil could do some research and edit this article to be nicely balanced and encyclopedic. As I mentioned above, I believe wikipedia could use an article on this - I don't have the necessary resources or knowledge to write one myself though. --130.232.120.145 05:13, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Update 5 Mar 2005

I believe I have addressed all disputes, and added sufficient references.

  • unsigned, page history says: 67.8.146.218 20:25, 2005 Mar 5 (UTC)
The thing is, most of that stuff was about fish oil, not cod liver oil. They aren't the same, so the fish oil information doesn't belong in this article. —Mar·ka·ci:2005-03-5 21:29 Z

GJ, page looks good to me now. We apparently needed another user here to sort it out. ; ) 130.232.120.145 22:08, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry it was unsigned, Im still new to this wikipedia thing, but i got a username now so it should be ok now.

Anyways I modified the article to clearly explain that those references do indeed apply to both cod liver and fish oils becuase they are so similar and have the same effects to ones health. The saying "probably because of its foul taste" is opinion only, you had no references to back it up. In fact I consume cod liver oil every day and it is not foul at all, only time it is foul is when you let it sit out to rot, otherwise it doesn't have much flavor (neither good nor bad). Oblivion 5 Mar 2005

The references and information [Oblivion] posted are very informative and relative to the topic. A good edit and a welcome addition to the topic. Madhatter256

I've linked to the omega-3 article's list of things it helps with/prevents. That way we don't have to keep two lists of its benefits. As a result, most of the "references" are gone. I've linked to wholehealthmd.com instead of www.mercola.com. The latter keeps pushing their product like there's no tomorrow. WholeHealthMD.com is less biased.
And Oblivian, your "rearanged some paragraphs, added more information on the similarities of fish and cod liver oil, and a few changes to some sentances" edit was nothing more than a revert. And it seems like Madhatter256 only signed up to pat you on the back. —Mar·ka·ci:2005-03-6 14:07 Z


"That way we don't have to keep two lists of its benefits."
None of those references were duplicates, you're essentially deleting valid and useful references because you think it is not needed. First of all the majority of the references on the omega 3 page do not have hyperlinks, while the majority of the links I put up are linked to valid and respectable medical journals which people can easily check out without having to go to a library to look things up, this is very beneficial to the casual surfer who does not want to spend the time to go to the library and look up the references on the omega 3 page.


"most of the "references" are gone."
For the 2nd time you have deleted all of the important references I put up, only keeping 2 minor inline references (which are only news stories). Becuase in your opinion they arent needed. Well let me tell you, you do not speak for everyone, Im sure there are many people that would find the references I put up very useful. :(


"edit was nothing more than a revert."
You did not even read it did you.


"I've linked to wholehealthmd.com instead of www.mercola.com. The latter keeps pushing their product like there's no tomorrow. WholeHealthMD.com is less biased."
It is not mercolas product! Mercola.com is simply a health news site with information on such things! Mercola was also not the only site that I referenced, I also had references to the British Medical Journal, Washington Post, JAMA, American Journal Clinical Nutrition, Journal American College Nutrition, and The Lancet. So you may think Mercola is biased, that's fine, but when you also delete all these other references, it shows that you are biased towards everything but wholehealthmd.com!


The whole point of putting up a lot of references is becuase everyone has their own biased opinions, everyone's different, and by putting up a variety of references from different sources people get to read about a topic from many different sources, that way the reader can come to their own conclusion about a topic.


Now I may be new and not know all the rules yet, but surely the way you treat this topic and the discussion with me is not the norm. I would think people here would be more willing to come to a balance by sharing information and by giving suggestions on how to improve articles. You on the other hand act like you have the final say in everything, this is becoming very frustrating to me.


I have edited the topic again, including the reference to webmd and the other wiki links you included. All I wanted was to have a good article on cod liver/fish oil, becuase I have experienced the health benefits cod liver/fish oil can bring to ones health, so I want other people to be able to find information on it so that they may improve their health also. I welcome improvements to the article, but all the of edits you have done have not been improvements, quite the opposite when you delete 70% of the article.


Anyways I dont care any more, I don't have the time to waste fighting with people like you, I had thought it might be nice to share information with people on this site but I realize now nobody is interested on views that differ from the mainstream (i.e. wholehealthMD.com). Especially after seeing you continuously delete the references and information I spent hours looking up, deleting it becuase of your opinions. Oblivion 22:11, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article Neutrality Disputed.

Removed reference to fish oil blog .com which is clearly a commercial website.

For the 3rd time user Markaci has changed the article to reflect his personal opinion. My comments above still apply. I feel that my 22:11, 6 Mar 2005 edit was fair and balanced in the variety of references it gave and the content of the article was thorough, but obviously Markaci doesnt agree and is not willing to work something out. Oblivion 01:51, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I find it contradictory to devote a large portion of the article on essential fatty acids when, "to obtain therapeutic amounts of EPA and DHA from cod liver oil, one would probably exceed the recommended daily intake of vitamins A and D." Of course, the article should contain some information on fish oils, but remember that the article is on cod liver oil. It is a fish oil, but a special one. Information should be concentrated on it specifically.
Since, "[You] dont care any more, [you] dont have the time to waste fighting with people like [me]", I'm removing the neutrality dispute tag. —Mar·ka·ci:2005-03-13 03:00 Z
Actually I do care, I said that before I initiated the dispute, so it has been reinitiated. "I find it contradictory to devote a large portion of the article on essential fatty acids when, "to obtain therapeutic amounts of EPA and DHA from cod liver oil, one would probably exceed the recommended daily intake of vitamins A and D."" That is only from one source (webmd) many of the other sources I provided gave different views on that aspect of cod liver oil. Oblivion 19:11, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm a little surprised to see somebody question whether codliver oil was really taken as a nutritional supplement in the past. It's a textbook component of childhood horror stories from the old days. This page contains a typical example (1/3 of the way down under "Did rationing affect your life greatly?"): <http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/questions.html>

Just my opinion, but I think if you find webMD questionable as a source, you'll need to point out the discrepancies between those websites you suggest and webMD. However, in putting up webMD, webMD IS advertised here. Even if there are more links in addition to webMD, readers should BEWARE. I don't dispute the details of Cod Liver Oil because I think it is sufficiently expressed in a neutral way, but the LINK'S neutrality is NOT. The same goes for mentioning the cereal company. And why mention only America and UK? How about the rest of the WORLD? In summary, if you have the evidence, speak.

[edit] Commercial Site

I would like to hear your reasons for saying that Fish Oil Blog is a commercial site. It does not appear so to me.

[edit] Pageblanking

The talk page was altered to remove the discussion of fishoilblog. I've reverted the pageblanking. The same IP has removed any mention of the fishoilblog discussion from the Talk pages of Cod liver oil, EPA, DHA and Fish oil. David.Throop 02:41, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poor Technical Understanding

It appears that some of you do not understand the principles of commercial processing of Cod Liver Oils. Indeed the first part of the process involves boiling with steam and pressing to extract the Crude oil. This is not the oil you take in a food supplement or medicinal product. Further processing may involve patented processes for cold clearing (remove stearin), refining (saponification), deodourising, bleaching, ultra-filtration, molecular distillation, etc. These processes actually devitaminise the Oil, thereby removing 'natural' levels of the vitamins you so incorrectly state may be above RDA. The levels of vitamins found in food supplements and medicines containing Cod Liver Oil are strictly controlled in accordance with Food and Medicinal Legislation and based upon Quality, Safety and Efficacy. The processes of manufacture involve doping of the Oil with suitable levels of vitamins to accurately match the label claims on the commercial products (label claimed levels must obviously fall within Safety limits for those vitamins). Cod Liver Oil is licensed as a Medicine in Europe (and many other places around the world) and there is significant evidence to prove its clinical benefit (it wouldn't be a licensed medicine if it didn't have such clinical evidence). In addition, it is sold as a Food Supplement product, where such 'therapeutic' claims are reduced.

Cod Liver Oil is not always found to have a 'fishy' taste or odour. Many modern products have no significant taste or odour and it is commonplace to receive comments from customers that the product must be 'diluted' because it doesn't taste as fishy as it used to. This is simply improved processing and not dilution of the product.

Cod Liver Oil is indeed a good source of vitamins A and D (also vitamin E in some products). The main focus of the product in recent times however, has been upon its fatty acid profile, providing beneficial amounts of Omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids. It is widely accepted by Food Safety/Standard Authorities in many 'Western' countries that public diets are significantly unbalanced in terms of Omega-3 and Omega-6 intake. Studies have shown that current intake is 8:1 in favour of the Omega-6 fatty acids, which is something the European Governments are trying to address, as evidence would suggest a 2:1 balance would be better for public health.

Cod Liver Oil and many Cod Liver Oil containing products are widely available in the marketplace and they are being taken by an increasing number of consumers, not a decline. The reason you possibly perceive a decline in consumption is because most Cod Liver Oil products are now branded to focus upon Omega-3 content and are often formulated in conjunction with other 'active' ingredients (e.g. glucosamine, chondroitin, etc.).

Some Omega-3 containing marine-oil based products (Cod Liver Oil and/or Fish Body Oil) are clinicaly proven and licensed medicines for indications such as Joint Care and Heart Health. If you wish to argue with their clinical efficacy in those indications I suggest you take it up with the European Medicines Agencies (e.g. MHRA, IMB, EMEA) as they have approved the Marketing Authorisation Dossiers for such medicinal products.

[edit] Cod liver oil skepticism unfounded

It puzzles me how people believe that vitamins might have any effect at all on the dead protein-chains of our body hair (vitamin shampoo), but still turn skeptic as soon as it comes to a product that has an unpopular taste. At medical school here in Trondheim at the NTNU cod liver oil is told by professors here to be the only dietary supplement needed in a otherwise balanced diet. The n-3 or n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids are hard to come over by other means and are useful in combating free radical in the body. For those who understand Norwegian they might be interested in [1] and the Ph.d of Ingrid Helland on Fatty Acids, Mothers & Children Effects of supplementing pregnant and lactating women with n-3 or n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids. And by the way, for an interesting read on the disadvantages of dietary supplemental vitamins in pill form compared to getting them the "hard" way through vegetables and fruits should read G. Bjelakovic, D. Nikolova, L. L. Gluud, R. G. Simonetti, C. Gluud, Mortality in Randomized Trials of Antioxidant Supplements for Primary and Secondary Prevention: Systematic Review and Meta-analysis, JAMA, vol 297, nr 8, 28. februar 2007, s. 842-857. 84.49.205.237 22:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnfddddg


What you fail to realize is that Wikipedia all too often ends up as a forum/resource for the dogmatic defense of the mainstream. It seems there are plenty of self-appointed arm-chair skeptics objecting to everything that doesn't sound like something Scientific American would publish or endorse. They don't care actually care about truth, but are more interested in following the letter of orthodoxy.... ...Thank you for your references though, it's very helpful. Also, I think that this wikipedia entry, as it currently stands (Oct 22nd 2007), is quite good. Well done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PHDWikiMan (talk • contribs) 21:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nutritional info

Could we get a nutritional info table stating Vitamins and Minerals /100g including EPA and DHA? From us department of agriculture SR20? --Annon 41.241.218.250 16:18, 5 November 2007 (UTC)