Talk:Cod Wars

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[edit] Is the name pun or what?

The sentence: "The term is probably a pun referring to the Cold War."

was removed. Maybe "The name is journalistic term getting popular because of alliteration with Cold War." would be better. Or was this term used in some official documents? Pavel Vozenilek 23:34, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Icelandic name for these 'conflicts' is Þorskastríðin which translates into Cod Wars in English, however the Cold War is called Kalda stríðið in Icelandic. I'm not sure whether this term was first coined in Icelandic or English, if it was the former then it was probably just a coincidence that it resembles Cold War in English. --Bjarki 00:04, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Maybe this explanation could make it into the article to avoid clueless questions repeated again. Pavel Vozenilek 00:14, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Surely the pun is on 'cod' meaning fake - the idea of a war between a two mis-matched opponents. Iceland had no military forces other than a coastguard.--JBellis 21:14, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

The page name is singular but in Para 1 the phenomenon is described in the plural. Anybody got a solution? I don't know the subject. 203.220.140.92 00:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some copyvio

There is some copy vio in this article in the descriptions of the Frist and Second Cod Wars. GraemeLeggett 12:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recent fish warring in the Norwegian sea

1½ years ago there were also minor skirmishes between the fishing fleets of Norway and Iceland concerning maritime boundaries in the Norwegian Sea, which also led to a shortlived diplomatic strife. Should this be mentioned as trivia or as an extension of the Cod Wars? //Big Adamsky 19:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Role of the EEC/EU common fisheries policy

According to a documentary shown a few years ago on BBC television the third cod war came about because Britains entry into the common fisheries policy had opened her waters to fishing boats from elsewhere in Europe and the resultant competition for limited fish stocks had prompted British boats to move northwards in increacing numbers in turn antagonising Icelandic fishermen who succesfully lobbied their government to extend their fishing waters. The resultant conflict and Britains eventual capitulation effectively destroyed much of Britains fishing industry.

[edit] The Neutrality thing

I would like to know what excact parts are considered non-neutral. I also believe that people should put dates to incidents during these "wars" so they can be readily verifiable. If there are no parts that are considered non-neutral then the tag should be removed it would serve no purpose. -- Kjallakr 23:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I should perhaps add, that I did take a look at the "http://www.btinternet.com/~warship/Feature/lowes/lowest.htm" and discovered it doesn't describe any incident that has been written about here, as of now. Nowhere is it mentioned here that Þór may not have rammed Lowestoft. And it doesn't say anything that would make anyone think that the article is biased. Someone with easy access to Royal Navy accounts might do well to write about them here though. But since no one is willing to partake in a discussion about this, reasoning that this is a truly biased article, I will remove the tag. -- Kjallakr 22:46, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The Article is extremely biased towards Icelandic accounts, represent them as fact and implying British accounts as fabrications. user:Capt Jack Doicy

I don't see that it implies that at all, it just states that the British accounts differed from the Icelandic ones. Why do you think it implies that they are fabrications? --D. Webb 23:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
No reply, so I'm removing the tag. --D. Webb 05:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

As for this "A second incident occurred in 1976, when HMS Andromeda was dented when Thor sailed close to her bow." I would like to know the exact date of this incident and more details and a source. --130.208.189.147 15:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Wait a minute, just because there's no source cited for a particular statement, that doesn't mean that the article is biased and implies that the British accounts are fabrications etc. --D. Webb 20:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't doubt that this is no fabrication. I am simply trying to get someone to find a source. --130.208.189.147 17:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

It is written as an Icelandic article, this clear from the fact that in has a politics of Iceland Info box for christ sake, its pervasive of the whole article from the implication that British accounts are false, to the frequently putting across that Iceland was in the right--Capt Jack Doicy

Again, you haven't told me what exactly in the article you think implies that the British accounts are false so I have little choice but to ignore that comment until you do. I can't see that the article says anywhere that Iceland was in the right to unilaterally expand its exclusive economic zone: it doesn't say so in the introduction, not in the chapter on the cod war of 1893, not in the chapter on the first cod war, not in the chapter on the second cod war, not in the chapter on the third cod war, not in the chapter on the last ramming and certainly not in the chapter on the source of the name. Could it be, then, that the article makes any claims about Iceland being in the right in any particular incident? Not explicitly, as far as I can see, but perhaps implicitly in some cases. However NPOV doesn't mean that we supress such information if Iceland really was in the right in those cases (please understand that I am not making that claim here). And to me, at least, it doesn't seem that the article actually fails to be neutral in any such case. The account of the ramming of V/s Þór in 1976, for example, is supported by citations to published works. Nor does NPOV require that we leave out such claims even if opposite claims were backed up by other published works; it would only require us to report both. So your claim that the article is biased just isn't enough. I wish you would point out specifics instead of generalizing about the article; it's imperative that you do so, in fact, since some of us, at least, don't see what you mean. Give us examples. And citing published works that make opposite claims would be extremely helpful. Regarding the infobox, I don't see that its presence makes the article biased; it would seem that the cod wars were in fact one of Icelands major political issues in the 20th century. I don't know what you mean by the article being written as an Icelandic article (are you implying that it's meant to be propaganda?), but we will assume good faith, of course. But clearly the infobox does in no way show that the article was written as an Icelandic article since the article was first created in February 2003 and the infobox wasn't added until January 2006, almost three years later. --D. Webb 20:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

most conflicts even minor ones carry the war infobox, unless it was a civil war. i come to this article because i was interested to know more, because i was looking up Icelandic EU relations, but the article has bias, V/s Þór in 1976 is a case in point it details the icelandic reports but doesn't say its the icelandic view it presents it as the definitive truth then say British reports differ considerably imply that they are lies. the article fells like it was written by icelanders for they're own history, which an iceland history box clearly backs up and your pedantic "it wasn't added till" is just a strawman.

Hold on, now! Be fair. I am exchanging views with you here in good faith, so don't say I'm being pedantic; concentrate on what has been said instead of attacking me. My "it wasn't added till"-comment (as you chose to call it) isn't a strawman argument at all: I didn't set anyone up as an easy target just to shoot them down. It really does make a difference that the infobox wasn't added until three years after the articel was first created - three years! Whoever added the infobox may have felt that this article belonged to Icelandic politics, but the infobox just doesn't show that the article (which first created three years earlier) was written as such an article. This conflict - despite its name - just wasn't a war and shouldn't have a war infobox; whatever it should have, it shouldn't be a war infobox. And saying that the British accounts differ does not imply that they are false, let alone lies (which is not even the same thing). Absolutely not. Moreover, neglecting to mention that British accounts differ on this would amount to suppressing information in favor of a particular POV. But the article does inform the reader of both accounts. --D. Webb 03:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

the style of writing presents the first account as the truth since it doesn't say the Icelandic account, then follow it with the british account, so it does portray the british accounts as differing from the truth. there is a war info box on the great pig war, it was a conflict, ships where attacked its even called a war. and the fact that the box is present is a sign of biased, i have seen many articles be dramatically rewritten over a few months let alone years so to claim the box doesn't represent bias is false.

[edit] Maps

This page would be improved with a map (or maps) showing both: the extents of the waters claimed by Iceland; and the location of the more significant incidents pcrtalk 20:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who rammed who? Sources:

IBiblio.org states that "Tartar was in the thick of it for much of the deployment, with a number of encounters with the notorious Icelandic gunboats, specifically with Tyr, who often got entangled with RN warships and British fishing trawlers during the Cod Wars. On the 1st April, Tartar was rammed twice by Tyr and in May, she further encounters with Iceland's Navy when she was rammed twice by another Icelandic gunboat Aegir."

A crew member's personal site shows a series of photographs, which states the following captions:

  1. Tyr begins to swing her stern into HMS Tartar's bow, Tartar tries to match the turn.
  2. Tyr stops turning, Tartar can't - single screw.
  3. Tartar and Tyr.
  4. Tyr slows down, but Tartar can't - more mass.
  5. Try and Tartar collide.
  6. Tyr's earlier attempt at swinging her stern- but she misses Tartar's bow.
  7. Tyr.
  8. Tyr turns her bow towards HMS Tartar in mock threat.

I personally think this articles portrays the Icelandic Coast Guard as a valiant defence force sallying forth to smite the evildoing fishermen from the wilds of Scotland - which is clearly not the case (Although I am not disputing the fact that the Royal navy was not free of blame either. The ramming incidents have hazy evidence, but seeing as I have presented a clear set of photographs showing the course of events, and no-one else has produced any references as of yet, I have tagged this article for neutrality. HawkerTyphoon 22:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

This incident isn't discribed in the article. Please try to read sources of the ramming in question. --130.208.165.78 18:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Also the book ISBN 9979-9569-6-8 has descriptions from crews and captains of both ships of the incident, which are completely out of line of your descriptions. What may have happened with the Tartar dosn't automatically apply to the Falmouth.--130.208.165.78 19:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Having check this newspaper article, as well as the rules of engagemnt issued to British forces at the time - and the blatantly photoshopped cover of the book you have quoted, I am inclined to believe that you are pushing a point of view. I quote from a british sailor on the ship - "“The whole front of the boat was taken off by Tyr, which was an Icelandic icebreaker. We lost several crew, we were taking in water badly and it took us 14 days to get back to a safe port. I count myself lucky to have survived.”". I will have more sources when the national archives get back to me. HawkerTyphoon 20:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
"We lost several crew..." Is that some kind of sailor slang or does it mean what one would immediately think, that the British suffered casualties in the Cod Wars? If so, it is the first time I've ever heard about it. Furthermore Týr is not an icebreaker. This is a rather dubious source. --Bjarki 21:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, that's what he said - although neither side lost any crewmen, although several were injured - in my experience, 'lost' does not always mean killed. And you're right, Tyr was not an icebreaker, but compared to the flimsy hull of the British ships (designed for ASW warfare), they could well have seemed as such to British crewmen. The source is a newspaper, and in my opinion no more iffy than the Icelandic book which shows Tyr at a 90 degree angle, lying in the water, with a British frigate three times her size riding over her... Such a collision would completely destroy Tyr, and most likely sink the frigate too. I've tried to find this book, but the onyl place I've managed to find it is an Icelandic online bookshop, where it is out-of-stock. Furthermore, my knowledge of Iceland (which stretches about as far as Sigur Rós) limits me as to what I could do with such a book. Judging by the front cover, and a rough translation (from my shoddy Norwegian) of what few phrases I can glean from the interweb, I think it's more of a dramatisation than a viable source. HawkerTyphoon 22:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The story goes that the angle was 70°, I haven't read the book myself but as I understand it is based on the accounts of sailors from both ships, I'll try to get my hands on it in the next days. The author is well respected for his previous books which have covered various dramatic disaster situations and rescue operations. Let's just remember that it is probably hard to find a single incident from the entire history of armed conflicts in which both sides agree completely on what exactly happened. As all Icelanders, I have been brought up to a certain undisputed version of the truth in which a tiny and just recently independent nation took on a greedy world empire (a declining empire maybe but still an empire) in a fight for its economic survival and prevailed in spite of the latter's infinitely superior naval power and bullying tactics. This article probably provides a more neutral and sober account of these happenings as it is, but is bound to offend Icelanders who stumble upon it and perceive it as trying to whitewash the British navy. It's not our job here to "discover the truth", if there are differing accounts of the same incident they should both be presented and cited properly in a neutral manner. That's what Wikipedia is for.--Bjarki 23:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with 95% of what you're saying. Seeing as we can't present every incident from a neutral side, so maybe we should present the two views of each. I've been brought up in the British Royal Naval perspective, so I'm not free of bias either - the general view here is that Iceland resented British 'interference' in 'her' North Atlantic, and so increased its waters by what - 60 times - illegally, attacking any ship that came into sight, armed or not. Feelings are still bitter in the North of England and in Scotland over the events, as lots of jobs were lost, as well as a denting of National Pride (We lost a war against Iceland?!). I find it hard to believe that the captain of tthe frigate intentionally rammed Tyr?, considering Tyr's previous history of incidents of this nature. That said, emotions were high on both sides, and my opinion is that the final ramming incident was down to close, heavy-handed manouvering on both sides, and with the disparity oin ship sizes and turn rates, an accident was only a matter of time. HawkerTyphoon 16:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
David Wines, an officer in Falmouths helicopter hangar at the time is pictured in Útkall: Týr er að sökkva showing with paper models how the ramming occured. Mark Masterman, chief of operations of Falmouth is also pictured showing the 70° angle and how Týrs aft end submerged. Also Gerald Plumer, Falmouths captain, said he was very happy not to be court-martialed after this incident. The Týr was trying to cut Charlisles nets off while pursued by Falmouth, the net cutter is connected by wire to Týrs aft end. Hitting the Falmouth intentionally, with Týrs back end would have been absurd if you wanted to cut a trawlers nets off. --130.208.189.147 00:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Any sinkings at all?

I found somewhere in the web that two trawlers from Hull were sunk by Icelandic coast guards on September 1972. Any facts about that?. DagosNavy 00:43, 5 February 2007

As far as I remember, the Icelandic Coast Guard only shot live rounds into one trawler, which incidentally wasn't sunk. Can you be more specific. It shouldn't be a problem finding their names and registration/pennant numbers for example, especially if they sunk. --130.208.189.147 01:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I only heard about their names: the Oberon and the Pearl. No other details available. DagosNavy 12:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I've seen this comment before, and made strides to find out any factual information. I found no internet source that the Icelandic coast guard ever sunk any vessel, and that is in line with that there are no sources here in Iceland that claim so that I have found.
Btw, where can I find information and a source for the 1893 cod wars? I find it interesting that the Danes claimed 13 miles but the Icelanders negotiated about it to later claim 12 miles, anyone else have a problem with that?--Whatever70 05:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
This source Þorskastríðin states that in 1903 the Danes and the British made an agreement on a 3 mile zone around Iceland.--Whatever70 05:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Cod war 1893?

Reading the article, I stumbled upon this "Illunypa to Thornodesker Islet", I have a hard time finding them on the map, also, how in the world were Iceland able to negotiate about their foreign policies when the Danes had them in their hands at that time? I find this article very strange and not inline with what I have come to know, is there anyone here who can direct me in the right direction for a good source for this period? --Whatever70 04:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

For some time before Iceland became a republic in the 1940s, Iceland and Denmark had been independent countries with the same king. I'd guess that this status was in place by 1893. Nyttend 12:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
The Kingdom of Iceland (under King Christian X also of Denmark) did not exist until 1918. Iceland did, however, enjoy increasing levels of independence from Denmark before it became a separate kingdom. -- Technl75 23:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Whatever70 23:17, 15 Mars 2008 (UTC) yes..kingdom if Iceland....Home rule 1904, Sovereignty 1918, Republic 1944, they must have had some special powers on the Danish to be able to do that deal...foreign relations and all...btw, since this timeline seems to be in the article, how about adding that little tid bit about Hannes Hafstein and his effort to fine a steam boat in a fjord in the west of Iceland? resulted in the only sinking of the "Cod wars", If I recall correctly, 3 or 4 men were killed. Think he was the only one who survived, he later became the first prime minister of Iceland.

[edit] War not declared?

As I recall, none of the three "cod wars" was actually "officially" a war -- i.e. neither side declared war on the other. Assuming this is correct, I think it should be explicitly stated in the article. KarenSutherland (talk) 08:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)