Talk:Coat of arms of England

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Image:Richard II arms.png

King Richard II of England's arms? IP Address 13:10, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Why did Henry not add Ireland to the royal arms? Was there a dispute with the King of Scots, over Edward Bruce's legacy? IP Address 13:13, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] A question about the England football badge, crest or coat of arms.

Why are there ten red and white roses on the England football crest? Know body knows, do you? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.153.247.72 (talk • contribs) 15:07, June 24, 2006.

The red and white rose is a royal badge for England (originally of the Tudors). —Tamfang 01:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
See Tudor rose.--Hannesde Correct me! 12:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are there any similarities between the english and the swabian Hohenstaufen arms ?

Have there been any relations between Hohenstaufen and England Image:England-Richard-I-Arms.svg? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.128.235.222 (talk • contribs) 21:13, July 16, 2006.

[edit] England - Normandy - Denmark?

Its known that Normandy is named after a the norse, danish king as always been using tree lions, is it possible that then the norse possede normandy they also brought along their coats of arms, as they did in Tallinn Schleswig-Holstein Schleswig and Lûneburg. Could the english coats of arms be a version of the danish, from a time then the design where not fixed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.198.210.66 (talk • contribs) 15:42, August 17, 2006.

The trouble is that there were Normans in Gaul for two centuries before the earliest trace of what we'd call heraldry. There's no shield with three lions on the Bayeux Tapestry. —Tamfang 23:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
  • It's potentially true but it's so long before the invasion it's hardly worth mentioning. R johnson 12:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
  • We're talking about a system in which some symbols are known to have endured eight centuries; their continuity for a few centuries before that, if it could be established, would certainly be worth mentioning. —Tamfang 08:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] England - Denmark - Lower Saxony ?

It is correct that the Danish arms is related to the arms of Schleswig, Tallinn, Estonia and Lüneburg, but regarding the three lions, one should rather look c. 50 to 100 years after the end of the Viking Age. The interesting bit here is that both England and Denmark adopted insignia carrying three lions, and German prince Henry the Lion who ruled in NW Germany also adopted a lion insignia. Both Henry the Lion and the Valdemarian kings of Denmark strongly opposed the power of the Holy Roman Empire and Richard had such a troubled relationship with the Emperor that Richard was imprisoned passing through Germany. Given this background, it would make sense if the three rulers had adopted similar arms as they shared common enemies; Holy Roman Emperors Frederick I and Henry VI. This is at least the guess of Danish heraldist Erling Svane.(Erling Svane: Det danske Rigsvåben og Kongevåben, Odense University Press, 1994, p. 16-17.) Unfortunately, I can't find a copy of Henry the Lion's arms but I've asked WP:Germany for help. Richard the Lion-hearted ascended the English throne in 1189, and Canute VI of Denmark ascended the Danish throne in 1182.

Richard's arms

Canute's arms (1190s)

Henry the Lion ruled in Lower Saxony bordering the North Sea 1142–1180. The dates don't match completely, but Danish heraldists have speculated that since both Canute and his brother used identical arms that they might both have inherited the "three lion" symbol from their father Valdemar the Great (1157-1182), one of Denmark's most powerful monarchs but also a person where we have no surviving seals. That would make the lion symbol used both in Denmark and NW Germany at the same time, and Henry the Lion, Denmark's Valdemarian kings and Richard the Lion-hearted had in common that they opposed the power of the Holy Roman Emperor. Again, this is conjecture. An obvious problem in this line of reasoning is the missing arms of Valdemar I of Denmark, however; the Church of Saint Bendt in Ringsted features (featured ?) a fresco of a series of Danish kings carrying their coats of arms. Its date has not been properly established, but it showed three kings carrying three-lion arms and one carrying a two-lion arms.(Svane, p. 37) If Svane identifies the persons correctly, they would be Valdemar I, Canute VI, Valdemar II and co-ruler Valdemar the Young. That said, it is also problematic to identify the arms of Valdemar the Young, but it is an indication that Valdemar I might very well have used an arms similar to that of his two sons. IF (very big "if") that's true, that could be indication of a link from Valdemar I and Henry the Lion to each other and then further from Canute VI of Denmark to Richard of England, but for the moment, we don't have definitive proof. Valentinian T / C 16:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Update: I just saw something interesting from the article on Henry the Lion. Henry the Lion was exiled from Germany 1182-85 at which time he stayed with his father in law, Henry II of England, and Henry II was the father of Richard the Lion-hearted. It seems that the interesting bit is what arms Henry the Lion used at this time. If it was one or two lions, then no match. If three, then we might have a match. It is also possible that the Danish and English insignia both use three lions as a reference to the Holy Trinity. Valentinian T / C 16:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
A German editor has informed me that Henry the Lion used an arms with one lion only [1] so if the English and Danish insignia are related in one way or the other, he couldn't be the reason. Valentinian T / C 17:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Estonia and it's capital Tallinn have coats with the three lions originating from ancient Danish rule times. See Coat of arms of Estonia

Estonian coat of arms

Tallinn greater coat of arms

[edit] Aquitaine

"According to another tradition the two leopards were combined with the single leopard of Aquitaine on the acquisition of these continental territories by the English Crown"

This sentence is wrong, it's the Duke of Aquitaine that became King of England in 1154, the way this sentence in made suggest it is the opposite that happened, that the King of England became Duke of Aquitaine. Nothing could be further away from the truth, I'll reword this sentence. Matthieu 13:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

When he gained Aquitaine by marriage, later King Henry of England was Duke of Normandy. The coat of arms of Normandy are two yellow leopards on red ground. The coat of arms of Aquitaine is one yellow leopard on red ground. The coat of arms of the house Anjou (Plantagenêt) could have been a combination of these similar coats of arms. See http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armorial_des_r%C3%A9gions_de_France Thw1309 17:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

You can write that link as fr:Armorial des régions de France (note the leading colon). —Tamfang 00:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a french homepage http://perso.numericable.fr/~earlyblazo/index.htm , showing the different coats of arms of Richard Lionheart, the first bearer of this coat of arms. He used the coat of arms with the three lions passants (leopards), when he returned from crusade and captivity. The hompage of the town of Bordeaux http://www.bordeaux.fr/ebx/portals/ebx.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pgPresStand8&classofcontent=presentationStandard&id=6931 says, that under Enlish rule, this town´s coat of arms showed the three lions passants of the English Kings as a combination of the two leopards of Normandy and the leopard of Aquitaine. "Le léopard : c’est bien sûr le léopard des rois d’Angleterre (et non de la province de Guyenne). Pendant la domination anglaise, le blason de Bordeaux comporte trois léopards. En effet, Richard-Cœur-de-Lion joint aux deux léopards de Normandie celui que les Anglais ont donné aux armes de Guyenne." Thw1309 20:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the leopards alone

The arms of England are not used in any official capacity on their own ...

I seem to remember seeing them on Channel Islands coins; can someone enlighten me about official armory used there? —Tamfang (talk) 19:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)