Category talk:Coastal cities

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I wonder... Out of curiosity (mostly testing the limits of the category criteria), would Salt Lake City be considered a coastal city? It has a population over a hundred thousand, and is on the coast of the Great Salt Lake. It does have a lot of regularly-traveled piers and handles yachts and (conceivably) small cargo ships, but as the Great Salt Lake has only one major city on its coast and no international borders which would make international trade possible. There are inhabited settled islands in the Great Salt Lake, but nothing approaching the size of a city like Salt Lake City. However, I don't know if this would factor (probably not :P), but most of California's sea gulls congregate seasonally at the Great Salt Lake, sometimes blotting out the sky. My point is, Salt Lake is a large city on the coast of a lake and, for all geographical and ecological purposes, is a coastal city on the coast of a large saline inland sea. Geneva is also a lake-coastal city, as are Detroit and Chicago. Should their status as coastal cities depend on their being on international borders or how much of their port usage is for commercial trade?

Anyway, while that's stewing, I'm going to see if I can add cities (that much more clearly fit the established criteria) that aren't on the list. :) - Gilgamesh 12:41, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Another thought. This category can support ocean cities and lake cities, but what about major river cities, particularly on the St. Lawrence River or Rhone River? Such rivers are sea-commerce arteries that connect major lakes with the sea and function as major ports, even if they are not close to the sea nor a lake. - Gilgamesh 12:50, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

For that matter, what about the Three Gorges? Chongqing has been being revamped as a commercial port for traffic up the Yangtze River, and the lower parts of the city itself were destroyed in anticipation of rising water levels from the new man-made lake. - Gilgamesh 12:52, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Cities on a major river simply aren't coastal cities. If there was a category "international shipping ports" or something like that, they would fit there. I have removed both Rotterdam and Amsterdam from the category, as they are not on the sea but on a river or canal. I could remove The Hague because it isn't a port city, but I don't think that that criterium is correct here. Eugene van der Pijll 16:44, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In that case, I really have to question the inclusion of lake cities such as Toronto. Why in the world would you include Toronto but not Montreal, just because Toronto happens to be on the lake part of the Saint Lawrence/Great Lakes Waterway and Montreal happens to be on the river part (if, of course, you don't count Lac Saint Louis)? I don't understand what value this classification as stated has.

Someone looking for "coastal cities" is not going to be looking for Toronto; they're going to be looking for Halifax and the like. As an example, Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia refers to it as the "second largest coastal city in Canada after Vancouver", not the third largest after Vancouver and Toronto. - Montréalais 07:24, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

They are not my rules. My rules would be: Include a city when it is a coastal city. Amsterdam and Rotterdam just aren't (I know both cities, they just don't feel like you're close to the sea), so I was glad the rules allowed me to remove them. I've never been to the Great Lakes, so I can't say anything about Toronto. Except that I have a North-American road atlas, and it does not show a large harbour, so you might get away with removing Toronto from the list (although I suppose "international vessels" doesn't mean much in Toronto). Eugene van der Pijll 01:34, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, Toronto does have a port serving international vessels; then again, so does Montreal (and Rotterdam, for that matter). However, when someone mentions the coast, I expect there to be salt water in the vicinity. - Montréalais 07:57, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I never once presumed salt water to be the prerequisite for this category, and cities on lake coasts are very obviously coastal. Toronto and Duluth are most definately coastal cities, as they hug shores of great bodies of water and serve international vessels. I say the lakeshore cities stay. - Gilgamesh 03:05, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Lakes don't have coasts. They have shores. - Montréalais 15:08, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Most reputable dictionaries show a coast is exclusive to lands bordering the ocean. I also checked several geoscience/geography/surveying publications at our library (I was bored) and nowhere does it include the definition of lakeshores as coastlines. I also seem to remember a guy from NOAA mentioning at a conference on coastal zone management 3 years ago that they apparently introduced the idea of referring to the shorelines of the Great Lakes as a "coast" in order to qualify some scientists and research facilities for additional funding, and several Great Lakes-based universities were also able to tap in. This subsequently led to certain real estate developers/regional industrial promoters in Ontario and U.S. Great Lakes states talking about a "4th coast" (in the US) and a "South Coast" (in Canada). While the St. Lawrence Seaway has brough ocean-based shipping to the region, I say this category should be for cities fronting oceans (or navigable salt water tributaries connected to oceans) only. I would also say the Coast article needs to be updated/edited. Cheers, Plasma east 00:56, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Plasma East's comments sew it up for me. - Montréalais 01:51, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think this category should be modified to remove the confusing reference of inland non-coastal locations (ie. on lakes). Plasma east 01:27, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. Cities on shores of large lakes with significant water traffic are coastal cities. - Gilgamesh 05:16, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

While I agree that it is important to categorize port communities as such, I think that the creator of this category has misinterpreted what the differences are between using the term "coast" versus "shore" Perhaps these ports should be categorized in some way under "Port cities" or "Port towns", but in my opinion, I think that Wikipedia is misleading its readership with the "Coastal cities" and "Coastal towns" categories which I believe are erroneously including ports on the Great Lakes, Caspian Sea, and other large lakes as being "coastal" when many sources would say they are not. The terms "coast" and "coastal" are normally used by geographers and geoscientists when relating to the ocean, as witnessed by the following definitions given by mainstream, non-academic sources. Although there are some slight differences, the majority of the consensus is that "coast" belongs to land bordering an ocean, whereas "shore" can be more broadly defined:

• Concise Oxford English Dictionary states coast→ n. the part of the land adjoining or near the sea.
• Concise Oxford English Dictionary states shore→ n. the land along the edge of a sea, lake, etc. • (Law) the land between ordinary high- and low-water marks.
• Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary states coast. broad area of land that borders the sea.
• Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary states shore. the land bordering a usually large body of water
• Dictionary.com states coast. Land next to the sea; the seashore
• Dictionary.com states shore. The land along the edge of an ocean, sea, lake, or river; a coast
• Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary states coast. the land next to or close to the sea
• Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary states shore. the land along the edge of a sea, lake or wide river
• Wordsmyth English Dictionary states coast. the land or area next to the ocean; seashore
• Wordsmyth English Dictionary states shore. the land beside an ocean, sea, lake, or river
• The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language states coast. Land next to the sea; the seashore
• The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language states shore. The land along the edge of an ocean, sea, lake, or river

If Wikipedia were to change the categories to read "Port cities" and "Port towns", this would enable major river ports to be added, whereas they are being witheld by the arbitrary rules established by the creators of the "Coastal cities"/"Coastal towns" categoriesPlasma east 17:10, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Split

What about spliting the categories according to water bodies, say, coastal cities of the Pacific Ocean, coastal cities of the North Sea, coastal cities of the Mediterannean Sea, etc.? The list of seaports is currently sorted in this manner. — Instantnood 08:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Probably better to split them by country, because there are already categories for some countries. And now this category is full, so it's high time for splitting. Karol 13:39, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

By water body categories can still be created.. they're two different ways of categorisation. — Instantnood 17:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)